[kennedy]

A couple questions before getting to my specifics:

1) Does any wireless router besides Apple's serve a printer? And does Apple's serve fine to Windoze boxes?

2) Given the computers won't be talking to each other, just to the Internet over DSL, is there any point to 802.11g rather than 802.11b? (Even 11Mbps is way faster than the DSL 1.5Mbps.)

3) What router is best for this: I need a wireless router with 200ft omni-directional range (with two 6" cement walls in the worst case path); I'd like to serve a printer to those on the wireless; and I'd like to support any 802.11b device (including all varieties Windows and Mac)? (Extra LAN ports are not needed; I will have a separate router for my hardwired LAN as I don't want the wireless devices to be able to get to the LAN, just to the Internet.)

The Airport Base Station with the antennae port plus the extra omni attenae seems to fit well (the modem is a waste, though), but will set me back $350 or so, plus a $50-100 printer. Other routers are much cheaper, but don't seem to have the printer support... or did I miss it? Buying an IP printer or a whole print serving computer would surely lose cost-wise. Suggestions?

4) Given the answer to #3, what's the best (most universally compatible) printer to use? I assume some old model that's been around long enough that almost all Windows machines have the driver, AND has drivers for Mac. Suggestions?


Thanks!

[aaanorton]

Originally posted by kennedy:
A couple questions before getting to my specifics:

1) Does any wireless router besides Apple's serve a printer? And does Apple's serve fine to Windoze boxes?

Yep. I like/use/highly recommend the Asante FR1004AL. Apple is currently (I think) the only ones selling one with a USB printer port, but others, like this Asante, have parallel printer ports.
It's still a little unclear regarding Windows boxes using AEBS shared printers, but I think it looks bad. I'd go another route if I were you.

2) Given the computers won't be talking to each other, just to the Internet over DSL, is there any point to 802.11g rather than 802.11b? (Even 11Mbps is way faster than the DSL 1.5Mbps.)

Nope. 802.11b would be fine.

3) What router is best for this: I need a wireless router with 200ft omni-directional range (with two 6" cement walls in the worst case path); I'd like to serve a printer to those on the wireless; and I'd like to support any 802.11b device (including all varieties Windows and Mac)? (Extra LAN ports are not needed; I will have a separate router for my hardwired LAN as I don't want the wireless devices to be able to get to the LAN, just to the Internet.)

The Airport Base Station with the antennae port plus the extra omni attenae seems to fit well (the modem is a waste, though), but will set me back $350 or so, plus a $50-100 printer. Other routers are much cheaper, but don't seem to have the printer support... or did I miss it? Buying an IP printer or a whole print serving computer would surely lose cost-wise. Suggestions?

Range may be a problem for you. Particularly with those concrete walls. You might want to consider something like the router I mentioned above with another AP hardwired to that and placed past those walls. Then you could just bridge that AP and it would be pretty seamless. The AEBSes actually support wireless bridging, which I think is one of their best features, but then you'd need to buy two and you be stuck with the USB printer port. I'd stay away from those Dr. Bott antennas. Do a search in this forum for them and you'll read about a lot of dissatisfied customers.

4) Given the answer to #3, what's the best (most universally compatible) printer to use? I assume some old model that's been around long enough that almost all Windows machines have the driver, AND has drivers for Mac. Suggestions?

For your cafe, right? That's simple, just remember three little words: laser, laser, laser. Don't even bother with an inkjet. Get a decent, reasonably priced laser printer from HP or something.

[striker100]

You could get the following, all by Linksys & all 802.11b only:

BEFW11S4- Router
PPS1UW- USB Wireless Ready Print Server
WPC11- Wireless Networ Card (to make the print server wireless)

In total this would cost about $180-190
You could then get the WSB24 signal booster if needed for about $80.

Not sure this is what your looking for but it's a thought.
This "system" works well with Windows and Macs, I have both set up through this system and everything works great.

[kennedy]

Originally posted by aaanorton:
just remember three little words: laser, laser, laser. Don't even bother with an inkjet. Get a decent, reasonably priced laser printer from HP or something.

Hmmm. Why laser? In this sort of scenario, with a charge per page, I am thinking my printer doesn't get a ton of use. I primarily want it as a convenience service... I want the option to be there. So, I was thinking minimal investment with a cheap inkjet. There simply aren't cheap lasers. (Are there?)

But if I *do* go with an HP LaserJet, then I suppose I can avoid the print server issue by just getting a network version. Let's see, the HP LJ 1300 can be had for $380 or less; add the network option makes it $560. Can you get as reliable/compatible a print server for $180?
Or are there cheaper HP options?

If the Linksys Print Server striker suggests is just as compatible and easy for walk-up customers, then that option is obviously cheaper.
And if the AEBS is just as compatible, it is also clearly cheaper, though perhaps not as cheap as the LinkSys package suggested. But then there's numerous "anything but a Linksys" posts here.

Hmmmm...

[kennedy]

Originally posted by aaanorton:
Range may be a problem for you. Particularly with those concrete walls. You might want to consider something like the router I mentioned above with another AP hardwired to that and placed past those walls. Then you could just bridge that AP and it would be pretty seamless. The AEBSes actually support wireless bridging, which I think is one of their best features, but then you'd need to buy two and you be stuck with the USB printer port. I'd stay away from those Dr. Bott antennas. Do a search in this forum for them and you'll read about a lot of dissatisfied customers.

This is a new one for me. So, I can setup two matching AP's in my building, connect them via ethernet, and they will together form one seamless HotSpot?? Or will it get flaky if you are in the coverage overlap?

Can I add a third AP as well, should that prove needed? (To avoid all concrete walls and cover all my eating areas and conference rooms, I'd need three.)

Can I do this with any AP? Like the cheap Netgear MR814? Or is this a special feature of the expensive ones like the AEBS?


Thanks for enlightening me.

[aaanorton]

Originally posted by kennedy:
Hmmm. Why laser? In this sort of scenario, with a charge per page, I am thinking my printer doesn't get a ton of use. I primarily want it as a convenience service... I want the option to be there. So, I was thinking minimal investment with a cheap inkjet. There simply aren't cheap lasers. (Are there?)

Either way, busy or not, you'll be glad you have laser. Inkjet carts will dry up or get clogged after long periods of disuse. You will get people printing at 2880 dpi for their letterhead, because it's "better" and using up all the ink. You'll constantly be changing ink. And customers will CONSTANTLY be coming up to you saying things like "The colors of my picture look weird. I don't have to pay for this, do I?". Inkjets are also notorious for choking on print servers. I could go on, but really, do yourself a favor and get a laser printer.

Let's see, the HP LJ 1300 can be had for $380 or less; add the network option makes it $560.

I bet you'd be able to use the standard 1300 through the print server on that Asante 1004 (~100 bucks).

This is a new one for me. So, I can setup two matching AP's in my building, connect them via ethernet, and they will together form one seamless HotSpot?? Or will it get flaky if you are in the coverage overlap?

Can I add a third AP as well, should that prove needed?

Can I do this with any AP? Like the cheap Netgear MR814? Or is this a special feature of the expensive ones like the AEBS?

This should work fairly seamlessly. Clients will simply connect to the AP with the best signal. I'm not sure what limit, if any, there is to the number of APs you can string together, but 2 or 3 should be fine.
The Netgear MR814 is actually a router, but yes you could use this as the master or slave unit. The AEBS provides for wireless bridging, so you wouldn't need to run the e'net cable.

[ghporter]

You want to go with a laser printer, not just because of the issues with speed and ink problems, but because MOST (maybe all) inkjet printers absolutely drag on a parallel print server, while lasers just love 'em.

One issue you need to pay attention to is how many wireless clients each of these wireless routers can handle. The original ABS could only handle ten at a time...

Another is area saturation. If you have a big space and 30 people start cranking up laptops in one corner, they're going to saturate the available bandwidth in that area, and the rest of the place will drag.

Though it will cost more initially, you may want to set up with a number of access points all wired to a router (either wired only or wireless), and configure them as roaming access points. These simply have the same network name (SSID) but different channels. The roaming configuration helps avoid saturation, and helps you even out coverage.

[kennedy]

Originally posted by GHPorter:
One issue you need to pay attention to is how many wireless clients each of these wireless routers can handle. The original ABS could only handle ten at a time...

Good point. Are the routers honest about that in their specs?

Another is area saturation. If you have a big space and 30 people start cranking up laptops in one corner, they're going to saturate the available bandwidth in that area, and the rest of the place will drag.

This doesn't make sense to me... if you have one access point set up, it doesn't know (or care) where in its circular range you are, does it? That doesn't make any sense unless its broadcasting different frequencies in different directions. (Or channels? based on comments below)

Though it will cost more initially, you may want to set up with a number of access points all wired to a router (either wired only or wireless), and configure them as roaming access points. These simply have the same network name (SSID) but different channels. The roaming configuration helps avoid saturation, and helps you even out coverage.

Okay, that's different. I thought all the access points used the same frequency... do they use different channels (FRS-style)? Also, per the previous note, I'm trying to figure out this seamless network thing... Does it show up on the laptop as one SSID and it automatically hooks to the strongest channel? Or do you get multiple points in the list, you look at the signal that's strongest, and you choose among them? What happens if you get up and walk to another area? (Sorry if these are stupid questions... I haven't had opportunity to play with HotSpots on my own yet.)


Thanks!

[aaanorton]

Originally posted by kennedy:
Okay, that's different. I thought all the access points used the same frequency... do they use different channels (FRS-style)? Also, per the previous note, I'm trying to figure out this seamless network thing... Does it show up on the laptop as one SSID and it automatically hooks to the strongest channel? Or do you get multiple points in the list, you look at the signal that's strongest, and you choose among them? What happens if you get up and walk to another area? (Sorry if these are stupid questions... I haven't had opportunity to play with HotSpots on my own yet.)

Wireless APs have channel selection options in their config pages. Here is the States, we have a choice of channels 1-11. The trick, as GHP mentioned, is to give each AP a different channel on the same network. The network is determined by the SSID. So you just give all of them the same SSID. When a client looks for a network to join, it sees the whole network as one; whatever the SSID is. Then when it joins this network, it just connects to the AP with the best signal. This AP selection is invisible to the user, usually.

[kennedy]

Okay, I think I understand now. So, my ultimate setup might look like this:

Internet <-> DSL Modem <-> Asante1 <<==>> (A, B, C, W1)

A = NetgearRouter <=> Internal-Hardwired-Network-of-Macs
B = Asante2 <=> (W2, Printer)
C = Asante3 <=> (W3, Printer) [optional; only if needed]

W# = Wireless Computers, Area # (covering 3 areas)

So, Asante1 will setup a Firewall between the Internet
and my DMZ where public computers in Area #1 can connect.
My current Netgear router will setup the same Firewall it
does now, but instead between the DMZ and my business's network.
Asante2 will cover area 2 and serve the printer.

Now the trick: I don't really want Asante2 to setup a firewall
and do NAT. If it does, then how you access the printer will
depend upon which area you are in (ick), since that will change
which LAN you are in, and thus the addressing. Can I setup the
Asante to act like a switch rather than a router? Or will I
need to let it act like a router, and carefully setup the DHCP
settings such that Asante2 is the same IP address in both the
LANs (the DMZ setup by Asante1 and the LAN setup by Asante2)??
Or is there a better way to do all that?

Thanks.

[kennedy]

Originally posted by aaanorton:
Wireless APs have channel selection options in their config pages. Here is the States, we have a choice of channels 1-11. The trick, as GHP mentioned, is to give each AP a different channel on the same network. The network is determined by the SSID. So you just give all of them the same SSID. When a client looks for a network to join, it sees the whole network as one; whatever the SSID is. Then when it joins this network, it just connects to the AP with the best signal. This AP selection is invisible to the user, usually.

One other question: I assume when using multiple AP's, its probably wise to use all the same brand or even model of AP?? I ask this as the Asante is a bit more than the Netgear... but easily justified where using it also as a print server... not so justified where it won't be print serving. Sooo, I thought I'd ask.

[aaanorton]

Hmmm... I'm not sure I follow your layout. Why do you need a DMZ? Why multiple print servers?
You can use routers as you've described and yes, you can config them to be simple wireless switches (basically), but you may be better off just getting some Access Points, instead. APs are essentially routers without DHCP capabilities and additional wired ports. A lot of people make these, D-Link and Linksys certainly. I've never needed these, but you should probably price them out. If they're like 20-30 bucks, then they'd make sense, but if they around $50, you might want to consider some MR814s. Keep in mind that the link I provided for the MR814 offers this unit for $40 after rebate. I'm pretty sure that the rebate is limited to 1/household. And feel free to mix-and-match brands, it shouldn't matter a bit. I see it like this:

internet > cable/DSL modem > WAN port of router (existing Netgear perhaps) LAN 1-3 > internal wired Macs (more via a switch if necessary), LAN 4 > Asante FR1004AL (DHCP and Print server) print server > laserjet, wireless > wifi customers, LAN 1 & 2 > APs wifi > more wireless customers.

[kennedy]

Originally posted by aaanorton:
Hmmm... I'm not sure I follow your layout. Why do you need a DMZ?

I probably shouldn't have said "DMZ". But I don't want my walk-up wireless users behind my corporate firewall! So, my existing firewall/router and wired LAN will not change.

So, since my DSL modem only takes one network connection, my corporate firewall will no longer go in there. Instead, my wireless network router will go into the DSL modem and my corporate firewall will be plugged into the wireless network's router. I labeled that LAN formed by the wireless router as my DMZ (zone where they are safe from the evil Internet but where they cannot get to my corporate computers).

Why multiple print servers?

Maybe. Because I have a big building... one would be used by those in the cafe upstairs... one would be used by those in the conference rooms downstairs. Maybe.

You can use routers as you've described and yes, you can config them to be simple wireless switches (basically), but you may be better off just getting some Access Points, instead. APs are essentially routers without DHCP capabilities and additional wired ports. A lot of people make these, D-Link and Linksys certainly. I've never needed these, but you should probably price them out. If they're like 20-30 bucks, then they'd make sense, but if they around $50, you might want to consider some MR814s. Keep in mind that the link I provided for the MR814 offers this unit for $40 after rebate. I'm pretty sure that the rebate is limited to 1/household. And feel free to mix-and-match brands, it shouldn't matter a bit.

I haven't seen any cheap Access Points... I have seen some, but more expensive than the FR1004 or the MR814. To avoid a lot of extra hardwiring, I need the router in my computer room. But I need the printer behind the counter at the coffee shop. Sooo... I need the print-serving-Access-Point over there... since the cheapest such thing is the Asante FR1004, then I end up needing to configure a router to act like a switch. Make sense?

Then if I end up needing a third Access Point, if I find a cheaper one I might do that. But if not, I'll probably pay the few extra bucks for the Asante vs. the MR814, just to keep the configuration the same (simpler) and to give me the future option of locating a second printer down by the conference rooms.

I see it like this:

internet > cable/DSL modem > WAN port of router (existing Netgear perhaps) LAN 1-3 > internal wired Macs (more via a switch if necessary), LAN 4 > Asante FR1004AL (DHCP and Print server) print server > laserjet, wireless > wifi customers, LAN 1 & 2 > APs wifi > more wireless customers.

Not sure I follow your notation there, but I think that puts my wireless users behind my corporate firewall... I can't have that.


Brian

[aaanorton]

Ok, I get your printer logic. Seems reasonable. Now, about your wired network... Ya, DMZ is the wrong word, this refers to a machine connected to the router, but configed in such a way that it is exposed directly to the entire internet. This is not a safety zone. Here's the thing... the wireless network for your customers will be after your wired network, but with a router between them doing NAT and DHCP, so that all the wireless clients are on a different subnet. This is a firewall that will not permit clients from one network to see clients on the other. It will be two separate networks that only share the internet connection. Just browse through this forum a while and look at all the threads about "can't see my other computers from..." or "why can't I copy files from my new iBook and AEBS to my old PC connected to a router?". They almost always are due to multiple DHCP servers creating multiple subnets. Setting it up like this will mean that all the wireless clients will get NAT'ed twice, which will be marginally slower for them, but hardly an issue for a FREE NET CONNECTION. Doing it the way you described would offer the exact same protection, but while slowing YOU down. In addition, you will then be serving the wireless network, instead of it serving back to another wired network, which to my mind seems less logical. Hope this makes sense.

[kennedy]

Originally posted by aaanorton:
Here's the thing... the wireless network for your customers will be after your wired network, but with a router between them doing NAT and DHCP, so that all the wireless clients are on a different subnet. This is a firewall that will not permit clients from one network to see clients on the other.

If that were true (neither network can see the other), then they couldn't see the Internet either! Firewalls are one-way... they let you see out, but others can't look in. Sooo, if my wired network is outside the wireless Firewall, but the wireless firewall is inside mine, then the wireless machines (if they know what they're doing), can see me, but my wired machines will have no way to see them. I want the reverse. And yes, that means an extra NAT translation for my internal network... that's the cost of safety. But c'mon, there are lots of NAT translations already between me and any webpage.

Now I will concede that if I use the same subdomain numbering in both networks (192.168.0.xxx), then it will actually be much harder for them to talk to my wired machines because they can't address them directly, but that's not much of a protection... they are still inside my corporate firewall!!

Further, by setting it up the other way, and by using different subdomain numbering (like 192.168.1.xxx) internally, my internal machines will be able to access the wireless ones (I could FTP a file to/from someone visiting), or I could setup VPN so that I can sit in the cafe with my laptop and actually access my internal network.


Anyway, thanks a lot for the help in this thread!! I was blind and now I can see!

Now where's the best place to get Asante wireless routers?
(Or, if anyone else has other print-serving wireless routers to suggest that work well with both Macs and PeeCees??)