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gulmatan · 09:28 PM

...or is Network setup (WiFi or Wired) just plain easier AND headache-free on a Mac?

My sister came over with her $700 bookend (as opposed to the $300 boat anchor). She wanted me to help her check or even set-up a WiFi connection on her machine so she could use my Apple network.

Well, while under torture of XP, I went to Control Panel; then to Wireless Network Setup and after that was completely lost. Windows of any flavour is definitely NOT an intuitive mentality. I told her, if she had a Mac, we'd be done by now!!! So, is it me or is Wintel WiFi just plain hell?

Now I know what XP stands for--eXtremely Painful!

mduell · Oct 5, 2006, 10:35 PM

I have a system tray icon for wifi, out of the box. It's the Windows wireless client. It looks like a computer with some Airport-esque radio waves coming off it. I double click the icon, pick a network, and click connect.

Real hard, eh?

gulmatan · 04:37 AM

Bill Gates told you to write that . Actualiy as my expeience shows, Windows is HELL and he wants to brainwash everyone it's simple and you're among the poor souls who got fooled. You shoud be pissed at Mr. Communist for drawing you into the hell that Windows REALLY is. Feel sorry for you.

cms · Oct 7, 2006, 05:08 AM

Networking in Windows is just fine; easy, evevn....if you know how. And that's my point: to get anywhere in the Windoze world, you HAVE to know how. Whereas the Apple OS really does seem to be so much more intuitive.

ghporter · Oct 7, 2006, 09:29 AM

Windows can be hell if you 1) don't bother looking for instructions, 2) don't bother following the instructions you can find, and 3) don't trust the OS to do what it says it's doing. This is true of every facet of Windows. If you are so smart that you don't need to look at the instructions, then you should never have a problem. If you have a problem and you haven't read and followed the instructions, the indications are that you are NOT that smart, and you need to fall back to reading and following instructions.

I have seen young children do just fine installing, configuring, and yes, NETWORKING Windows-they don't have egos that tell them to ignore the instructions. And I have seen very smart people who should have no problems get into deep and serious doo-doo through ignoring instructions (instructions for anything at all, really), because they listened to their egos instead of reading said instructions.

gulmatan, if you think mduell is brainwashed, I think yours needs an extra rinse or two, and maybe a special spin cycle. There is nothing "bad" about the Windows OS, just as there is nothing "good" about Mac OS. Both are tools-if you're smart enough to use the correct end of the spoon, you should have little trouble with either.

cms · Oct 7, 2006, 09:31 AM

Well said, that man....

An eloquent and accurate summary.

besson3c · Oct 7, 2006, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by ghporter

Windows can be hell if you 1) don't bother looking for instructions, 2) don't bother following the instructions you can find, and 3) don't trust the OS to do what it says it's doing. This is true of every facet of Windows. If you are so smart that you don't need to look at the instructions, then you should never have a problem. If you have a problem and you haven't read and followed the instructions, the indications are that you are NOT that smart, and you need to fall back to reading and following instructions.

I have seen young children do just fine installing, configuring, and yes, NETWORKING Windows-they don't have egos that tell them to ignore the instructions. And I have seen very smart people who should have no problems get into deep and serious doo-doo through ignoring instructions (instructions for anything at all, really), because they listened to their egos instead of reading said instructions.

gulmatan, if you think mduell is brainwashed, I think yours needs an extra rinse or two, and maybe a special spin cycle. There is nothing "bad" about the Windows OS, just as there is nothing "good" about Mac OS. Both are tools-if you're smart enough to use the correct end of the spoon, you should have little trouble with either.

Why should one need instructions to complete mundane tasks?

ghporter · Oct 7, 2006, 05:28 PM

How mundane is it to LEARN such tasks? If you already know the details of every interface, you should not need instruction, But if you don't know these details then you DO need to read them

Further, why remember such mundane details anyway? In the Air Force, we had to have our technical data with us and open to the correct page for the step we were doing, whether it was something as trivial as plugging in a piece of equipment, or something as insanely complex as aligning an entire system. This is because memorized details are often mis-remembered and it is never acceptable to get things working in spite of doing the task incorrectly. Reviewing instructions before a task is, at the very least, a great way to find out how a new product is different from those one has seen in the past.

besson3c · Oct 7, 2006, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by ghporter

How mundane is it to LEARN such tasks? If you already know the details of every interface, you should not need instruction, But if you don't know these details then you DO need to read them

Further, why remember such mundane details anyway? In the Air Force, we had to have our technical data with us and open to the correct page for the step we were doing, whether it was something as trivial as plugging in a piece of equipment, or something as insanely complex as aligning an entire system. This is because memorized details are often mis-remembered and it is never acceptable to get things working in spite of doing the task incorrectly. Reviewing instructions before a task is, at the very least, a great way to find out how a new product is different from those one has seen in the past.

I don't know if you've studied human computer interaction design, and I don't claim to be a complete expert on the matter, but I believe the ideal of any interface is to allow users to only have to learn a couple of very basic concepts before the rest of the interface is revealed in an intuitive manner.

When it comes to wifi config, I would argue that the prerequisite knowledge should simply be knowing how to get to your OS preferences and adjusting pref dialogs. There should be enough visual feedback and a coherent organization of information such that doing something as relatively mundane as setting up your wireless network comes intuitively.

I haven't thought too much about how well this works in OS X, so I'm only making very general statements here, namely that not everything in a computer interface should require a manual to operate. To you require a manual to use a car you've never used before? No, because other cars leverage your existing knowledge and use familiar imagery to convey ideas so that you can do things like figure out how to adjust the air in your car using your own common sense.

It is in the best interests of computer vendors to work towards this ideal anyway, since nobody reads computer manuals, I sure don't.

ghporter · Oct 7, 2006, 09:04 PM

In an ideal world, I'd agree that all one should need to know would be simply and elegantly presented in such a way that it was natural for any user at all to follow the proper steps no matter what.

However it ain't ideal in the real world. I have the unpleasant history of having seen people do stupid things that caused massive problems even though THEY KNEW THEY WERE DOING STUPID THINGS AT THE TIME. I hate to quote ron White, but he's right "you can't fix stupid." And unfortunately, such stupid people are the most likely to think they know everything about what they're doing. They wind up losing fingers on Shop-Smith systems, destroying their engines by "doing a tune up" and otherwise causing havoc. And they LIKE computers! So my advice is not aimed at ideals at all, but at real, solid, stupid human nature.

Sorry to be a spoil-sport, but that's why I said what I did. If people are smart enough to pour rain out of their boots, they should at least scan the literature that comes with a product to see if they do know what's going on. I do, and I have a degree in Computer Science.

besson3c · Oct 7, 2006, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by ghporter

In an ideal world, I'd agree that all one should need to know would be simply and elegantly presented in such a way that it was natural for any user at all to follow the proper steps no matter what.

However it ain't ideal in the real world. I have the unpleasant history of having seen people do stupid things that caused massive problems even though THEY KNEW THEY WERE DOING STUPID THINGS AT THE TIME. I hate to quote ron White, but he's right "you can't fix stupid." And unfortunately, such stupid people are the most likely to think they know everything about what they're doing. They wind up losing fingers on Shop-Smith systems, destroying their engines by "doing a tune up" and otherwise causing havoc. And they LIKE computers! So my advice is not aimed at ideals at all, but at real, solid, stupid human nature.

Sorry to be a spoil-sport, but that's why I said what I did. If people are smart enough to pour rain out of their boots, they should at least scan the literature that comes with a product to see if they do know what's going on. I do, and I have a degree in Computer Science.

I acknowledge the fact that there are stupid people that probably shouldn't be using computers, but what about all of the reasonably intelligent people? Would you suggest that they need to read manuals too?

If you give users a gun, they will use it. I acknowledge this too, and have experience (like you, I'm sure) that lines up with this theory. However, remember, this is about mundane (i.e. non-risky) tasks such as getting wifi to work, I also acknowledge that securing your wifi network is not what I would consider a mundane task.