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bbxstudio · May 18, 2003, 10:09 AM

Just some food for thought/discussion... in the next major MacOSX update (10.3 codename Panther - due in September?) we may see the biggest overhaul to Apple's OSX appearance setup yet.

Rumor has it they've implemented a system-wide 'Metal overlay capability' for all applications this time around (not just Cocoa apps like Safari and iChat). They're also apparently moving much further towards a 'flat' Aqua appearance with recessed button details (look to the new buttons in iTunes and Safari for a hint as to what this might look like). This is all speculation based on supposedly leaked info, of course - but there are substantial hints that these things will come to pass if the style of Apple's latest iApps are any indication.

Now here's where pure speculation comes in - OSX' original design was based on the then-current hardware offerings from Apple... it was bubbly, colorful and featured stripes very much like the striped plastic on CRT iMacs, keyboards and Studio/Cinema displays. Apple is now moving towards minimalist flat smooth surfaces in glossy white plastic and metals. This is playing out in the Safari/iTunes/Panther UI tweaks we're seeing, but what about the much-despised stripes? Does it not make sense that these will be phased out as well? If so, how does Apple intend to deal with these vast flat white areas?

I think this might open up the possibility that we'll be seeing a return of some 'missing' resources and the introduction of some new ones... we may see thin side-borders for things like menu, toolbars and panels - but what about that white space? If you look at the buttons in iTunes and Safari, you'll notice that they're most distinguishing feature is the horzontal reflection... is it possible that we'll see some sort of subtle horizontal reflection run accross the now-white expanses in Aqua? I think it's very possible - perhaps we'll even see some sort of self-scaling gradient fill composed of 1 or 2 resources like we see in the current Metal window implementation. How would this work with a horizontal reflection as opposed to a vertical sheen? Simple - the scaling properties for filling/stretching across Aqua reqions would be rotated by 90�, going top to bottom as opposed to the left to right Metal window gradient. The reflection itself would need to be subtle (nowhere near the contrast we see in the Safari/iTunes/Panther buttons), but it would work well - I have a similar thing happening accross my website design (see the subtle horizontal reflection in the sample below).

Zimphire · May 18, 2003, 10:16 AM

I hope they get rid of the stripes. If they have a solid GUI, there will be no reason for me to edit it.

What you are talking about, sounds great. I hope Apple does it.

No more Aqua obnoxiousness.

The people who still want that look, will surely be able to replace it back with a theme.

OptimusG4 · May 18, 2003, 11:12 AM

I think with the release of Panther, we might actually have themes again. I remember awhile back, in the times of 10.1, that Apple was working low-key on a way to implement themes. Sure, it was speculation, then again so was a web browser from Apple and the iPod.

Dace · May 18, 2003, 12:06 PM

I for one love the stripes. It makes it look fancy, sophisticated. Wouldn't it be funny if their new GUI looks like Smoothstripes Glossy? Max would just die.

Zimphire · May 18, 2003, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by Dace:
I for one love the stripes. It makes it look fancy, sophisticated. Wouldn't it be funny if their new GUI looks like Smoothstripes Glossy? Max would just die.

Naw,I don't think it will look like that at all.

Besides, if it has any Aqua without stripes look, I don't think Max would even try to claim Apple copied it off him. As the idea wasn't originally his either. NOR was it mine.

NetworkShadow · May 18, 2003, 12:54 PM

I don't care all that much as long as we can still make a nd use themes. I'd be happy if it makes themes more flexible also.

Is that sample from you're new site design? It's really nice looking, though a bit hard to read.

Ozmodiar · May 18, 2003, 01:36 PM

I think the look of 10.2 is perfect. I like the shininess and the raised look of buttons, and I even like the stripes. The dock does look better without stripes, but I like the way the menu bar looks with the them.

If they went system-wide metal, I would probably install a theme (for the very first time) to get Aqua back.

NetworkShadow · May 18, 2003, 02:31 PM

system-wide metal would be optional like blue or graphite.

Zimphire · May 18, 2003, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by NetworkShadow:
system-wide metal would be optional like blue or graphite.

It would be a option I would use. I like graphite 100% more than Aqua.

fireside · May 18, 2003, 02:54 PM

the stripes add something to the GUI. you just cant get rid of the stripes, cause without stripes, applications look horrible when there is just a solid color to look at.

Zimphire · May 18, 2003, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by fireside:
the stripes add something to the GUI. you just cant get rid of the stripes, cause without stripes, applications look horrible when there is just a solid color to look at.

I feel just the opposite way.

bbxstudio · May 18, 2003, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by NetworkShadow:
system-wide metal would be optional like blue or graphite.

Actually, I think the option is there for application developers (there probably won't be a user-defined Metal option on the front end). But it may allow for the use of Metal in Carbon apps (that's the rumor anyways).

bbxstudio · May 18, 2003, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by NetworkShadow:
Is that sample from you're new site design? It's really nice looking, though a bit hard to read.

Yeah so far - that's what inactive alerts and control text look like, but the text and glyphs go black on mouseover. Is it hard to read? Body text won't look this way, just surrounding interface elements - the idea is to have the content stand out in high contrast and the site engine runs ghosted back and 'invisible' to an extent. The site splits white and that purple smoke graphite depending on where you go, all very subtle. Here's what the gray stuff looks like...

Sophie · May 18, 2003, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by NetworkShadow:
system-wide metal would be optional like blue or graphite.

I just want systemwide anything.

Zimphire · May 18, 2003, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by Sophie:
I just want systemwide anything.

Yeah no crap. Consistency. I understand Apple is trying out GUIs trying to get feedback.

They should have done that before they released OS X

NetworkShadow · May 18, 2003, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
Yeah so far - that's what inactive alerts and control text look like, but the text and glyphs go black on mouseover. Is it hard to read? Body text won't look this way, just surrounding interface elements - the idea is to have the content stand out in high contrast and the site engine runs ghosted back and 'invisible' to an extent. The site splits white and that purple smoke graphite depending on where you go, all very subtle. Here's what the gray stuff looks like...

Well I don't mind having to look to see what it says, it's a cool design even if it's hard to read without looking right at it. I like both mockups. Does this mean that you're new theme is almost done?

schuey100 · May 19, 2003, 07:08 AM

I'll post this here as posting a new thread may make me look stupid

As I understand it, Panther will be a 64bit OS. Is that right? Apps will also be written for 64. Ok, if that's right, then would any of us, on current machines be able to run Panther? Surely you would need new hardware to run it, nevermind to take advantage of it?

It wouldn't suprise me if Panther will only run on new 970 machines. If my assumptions are correct then I doubt that any of us would be able to use it. then again, I'm a bit confused on all of this so someone please correct me.

bbxstudio · May 19, 2003, 08:49 AM

Originally posted by schuey100:
It wouldn't suprise me if Panther will only run on new 970 machines. If my assumptions are correct then I doubt that any of us would be able to use it. then again, I'm a bit confused on all of this so someone please correct me.

It will run 64-bit and 32-bit (I think)... the 970 can handle both 64 and 32 bit addressing, so applications written for 64-bit will take advantage of it but legacy apps won't be left out in the cold. You should be able to run Panther on the same machines that run Jaguar.

schuey100 · May 19, 2003, 08:53 AM

This is what I'm concerned about...should be able to run panther. It seems as if there's a possibility that we'll have to go buy new machines to run the latest software and OS. Could be that Jaguar then becomes akin to Classic. An old OS that companies will stop developing for.

If you're MX or whoever, would you develop for 32 bit? Probably not. You'd want to develop software that has the full feature set.

Anywya, I can't believe that all this would be the case as there would be plenty of software houses screwed.

Lew · May 19, 2003, 09:05 AM

How long did it take for developers to write PPC-only apps in the days of the M68K->PPC changeover?

NetworkShadow · May 19, 2003, 12:46 PM

Originally posted by schuey100:
This is what I'm concerned about...should be able to run panther. It seems as if there's a possibility that we'll have to go buy new machines to run the latest software and OS. Could be that Jaguar then becomes akin to Classic. An old OS that companies will stop developing for.

If you're MX or whoever, would you develop for 32 bit? Probably not. You'd want to develop software that has the full feature set.

Anywya, I can't believe that all this would be the case as there would be plenty of software houses screwed.

From the info that's out, it doesn't sound like Panther will break any of the old apps. And as for new apps on Jag, I'm not sure. All I can say is I'm getting Panther even if I have to get a new computer, cuz it's about time for one. I think Panther sound like a good update to the OS, I just hope they have an upgrade price this time.

bbxstudio · May 19, 2003, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by NetworkShadow:
I just hope they have an upgrade price this time.

Haha... don't count on it, it'll be a full priced release just like Jaguar - just think about it, it's 64-bit enabled, contains powerful new interface features like piles, the final 1.0 release of Safari, a full-blown office suite (iWorks)... with all the man hours involved they'll sell it full price for sure... the days of the $29.99 upgrade are long over, my friend

unlinear · May 19, 2003, 01:59 PM

bbx,

dont take this the wrong way but you apparently have sources that most people don't know about..

iWorks - not confirmed.
64-bit - yes, but who's to say they're even shipping the 64-bit version? I'd say that one will only come with 970 based systems whenever those come out. There's no point to shipping a 64-bit version along with the 32 since there's no hardware that an take advantage of it.

let's stay realistic. There's lies, big lies, statistics, and Apple Rumor sites.

There's a decent chance 10.3 will not be a $129 upgrade. (not saying that it'll be free; uncle Steve has already shown us with .Mac that free is so 1996) Everything else, however, is up in the air.

alex_kac · May 19, 2003, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by schuey100:
This is what I'm concerned about...should be able to run panther. It seems as if there's a possibility that we'll have to go buy new machines to run the latest software and OS. Could be that Jaguar then becomes akin to Classic. An old OS that companies will stop developing for.

If you're MX or whoever, would you develop for 32 bit? Probably not. You'd want to develop software that has the full feature set.

Anywya, I can't believe that all this would be the case as there would be plenty of software houses screwed.

No. That won't happen. I know that Apple currently has developers running CURRENT and OLDER Macintosh machines on Panther. Besides that - who said it'll be 64-bit? Its just a rumor. Now...even if it DOES support 64-bit, there is nothing about 64-bit that says you can't also run 32-bit.

The 970 is KNOWN by facts from IBM to run 32-bit AND 64-bit code equally as fast. Secondly, all PowerPC's have ALWAYS been 64-bit ready.

unlinear · May 19, 2003, 03:15 PM

"all PowerPC's have ALWAYS been 64-bit ready."

My marketese alarm just went off.

What does that exactly mean?

Option: current PowerPC based system can run 64-bit applications.

Response: ...Syeah right.

Option: current PowerPC based systems can be upgraded to be a 64-bit system.

Response: We all know how Apple LOVES offering processor upgrades to excisting systems *cough*; also, ...this sounds silly.

I think we all need to be aware of the folowing:

a. We're discussing an OS about which very little is known aside from its codename.

Codename. yes. take a few seconds. read that again. Understand the futility of the majority of this discussion. move to b.

b. We're discussing a processor about which nothing official has been announced and about which very little is known when it comes to performance and compatibility, running an OS about which very little is known aside from its codename.

c. Most of us/the people on this board are lucky if they can distinguish PCI from AGP, let alone have insight into hardware related issues.

bbxstudio · 04:14 PM

Originally posted by unlinear:
bbx, dont take this the wrong way but you apparently have sources that most people don't know about.. let's stay realistic. There's lies, big lies, statistics, and Apple Rumor sites.

No you're absolutely right - these are all just rumor and speculation (I think I stated that in the original message). I'm not convinced of anything - but I thing a couple of points the rumor sites are making are probably spot-on. In any case, I think the following could be argued effectively...

1. The 970 will ship this year - it has to or Apple's hi-end machines will look ridiculously underpowered... it's high time G4s saw a decent speed bump and feature upgrade and nobody sees this as painfully clear as Apple. You'll probably see a redesigned case/tower as well.

2. Panther will likely be 64-bit capable to take advantage of the 970 (but will still run on any machine that supports Jaguar)... however, you WILL need a 970 to take advantage of the 64-bit funkiness (Apple loves to milk its pro-user crowd). You'll also need your apps upgraded to take advantage of the 64-bits as well (Photoshop 8?)...

3. Aqua is flattening somewhat - you just need to look at the latest iApps to see the trend... I'm 99% sure this is happening with Panther, but this is based on 50% intuition, 30% rumor, and 20% total ignorance, so don't quote me on it or anything.

4. Metal is showing up all over the place... not certain whether it will be a system-driven developer option in Panther for Carbon apps like it currently is for Cocoa apps, but you never know - Metal for Carbon makes sense from a consistency standpoint for Apple. Right now they have to hard code it into Carbon apps like iTunes...

5. The stripes no longer exist in real-world hardware, so they may eventually disappear from the OS - but I doubt it will happen with Panther.

unlinear · May 19, 2003, 05:03 PM

thanks bbx for firmly rooting this discussion in something resembling reality again =)

I'm still convinced the 64 bit version of X (be it Panther or not) will be sold seperately. See: Windows NT for Alpha being sold seperately back in ye day, same for Intel's 64-bitter.

There is no advantage from sticking them on the same disk.

Anyhow.

I'd have to agree with your GUI-analysis.. however, there's one factor that will mess with any solid analysis.

It's called
'Will mr Jobs thinks this is neat' syndrome.

GUI standards seem to have gone out the window the last year or so, mostly (my guess anyway) to please Steve's need for cool looking applications.

iSync's a travesty. iTunes's store while looking nifty still looks like nothing else (not even iTunes itself).

We can expect a push of brushed, a push of plastic buttons (recent iApps) but other than that..

I just hope we dont get f*ed over.

Mike S. · May 20, 2003, 12:30 AM

Originally posted by NetworkShadow:
I think Panther sound like a good update to the OS, I just hope they have an upgrade price this time.

$129 *is* the upgrade price for Mac OS X just as $99 was the upgrade price of OS 9.

The Mac OS has two kinds of progression, free updates and paid upgrades.

Windows is sold as a stand alone product so you get full versions ($300+) and upgrade versions ($99+)

If you wait around instead of being the first to buy you can usually pick an OS X upgrade up for a significant discount through Amazon or elsewhere. I had Jag on pre-order for $79 from them when I canceled since we got an eMac for a good deal with an iMac trade-in at CompUSA.

Michaelm8000 · May 20, 2003, 11:23 AM

I personally REALLY hate the new aqua stuff that is going into the iApps. I like that they are flat, that is pretty cool. I HATE how the shine looks! It does not make any sense! If the iApps widgets were real 3D objects what in the world would they look like? Were is the light coming from? I thought the light was suppose to be coming from the top, not the upper left like in OS 9. All of these widgets would looks so much better if the shine was just a strait shine, not a crazy randomly curvy shine. I have tried this on the buttons and it looks so much cleaner.

Zimphire · May 20, 2003, 11:28 AM

That curve on the buttons is not supposed to be a shine. It's just a design.

Michaelm8000 · May 20, 2003, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
That curve on the buttons is not supposed to be a shine. It's just a design.

What the hell is that suppose to mean? It is just abstract or something?

NetworkShadow · May 20, 2003, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by Michaelm8000:
I personally REALLY hate the new aqua stuff that is going into the iApps. I like that they are flat, that is pretty cool. I HATE how the shine looks! It does not make any sense! If the iApps widgets were real 3D objects what in the world would they look like? Were is the light coming from? I thought the light was suppose to be coming from the top, not the upper left like in OS 9. All of these widgets would looks so much better if the shine was just a strait shine, not a crazy randomly curvy shine. I have tried this on the buttons and it looks so much cleaner.

Well the dropsadow under the windows would give you a clue to where the light is form.
That's part of the reason we make themes, aqua is nice and all, but we want it to look different. I just wish iTunes and a few of the other iApps were more easy to change the interface on.

bbxstudio · May 20, 2003, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by Michaelm8000:
All of these widgets would looks so much better if the shine was just a strait shine, not a crazy randomly curvy shine.

That's actually a vitrual tabletop reflection that would curve in a similar fashion around the surfaces in question. Stylized of course, but otherwise accurate.

sandman · May 20, 2003, 05:20 PM

Sorry bbx I couldn't help myself... any word on your aluminum theme? What about the white plastic theme?

Thanks man.

bbxstudio · May 20, 2003, 05:57 PM

Originally posted by sandman:
Sorry bbx I couldn't help myself... any word on your aluminum theme? What about the white plastic theme?

Working on them both simultaneously (as well as my website)... trying to get as much done as possible before this baby gets here (down to the wire now).

NetworkShadow · May 20, 2003, 06:59 PM

So are you doing a simultaneous release of both and the site? That might be a bit hard on us fans you know... it would be like hyper stim and we wouldn't know what theme to use. We'd switch themes ever hour until we go insane!

Well maybe not...

I'm guessing this is based on the mettle theme:

And this on the plastic one:

Am I right?

bOOzo · May 21, 2003, 05:50 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
That curve on the buttons is not supposed to be a shine. It's just a design.

Of course it's a shine, it's lit from 120 degrees.
I like the style very much.

bbxstudio · 09:09 AM

Originally posted by NetworkShadow:
So are you doing a simultaneous release of both and the site?
I'm guessing this is based on the mettle theme:And this on the plastic one: Am I right?

Nope - that's just the website plastic based on the colors in my logo. Besides, that's not metal, this is (just don't read too much into this):

I won't be launching all 3 simultaneously, but the website is first, Mirai second, Utopia 3rd.

joltguy · May 21, 2003, 09:11 AM

Originally posted by Dace:
I for one love the stripes. It makes it look fancy, sophisticated. Wouldn't it be funny if their new GUI looks like Smoothstripes Glossy? Max would just die.

Heheh... I seriously think Apple should just hire Max. He obviously "gets" their design esthetic, and he's looking for work IIRC. They've obviously seen his work, just look at iTunes 4 vs. iFix or the sunken widgets.

It's not outside the realm of possibility! They've done stuff like this before. Didn't they hire the original Chimera developer and one of the original FreeBSD developers?

bbxstudio · May 21, 2003, 09:25 AM

Originally posted by joltguy:
Heheh... I seriously think Apple should just hire Max. He obviously "gets" their design esthetic, and he's looking for work IIRC. They've obviously seen his work, just look at iTunes 4 vs. iFix or the sunken widgets.

Yeah I totally agree, but why hire him when they can just be inspired by him for free... Aqua itself was heavily influenced by a number of trends that first appeared in Kaleidoscope schemes, but Apple didn't run out and hire up schemers. Apple knows who Max is

NetworkShadow · May 21, 2003, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
Nope - that's just the website plastic based on the colors in my logo. Besides, that's not metal, this is (just don't read too much into this):

I won't be launching all 3 simultaneously, but the website is first, Mirai second, Utopia 3rd.

Ok... I'm guessing that last image you posted is the first glimpse at the theme though hu? I like what I see from the very small image.

Sage · May 21, 2003, 07:50 PM

Sorry to get off-topic here, but on the subject of Max, how come nobody has posted a thread with the latest iFixes yet? They're great! Finally, iTunes matches the blue widgets!

Oh jeezes, bbxstudio... teasing us or what?

Would Utopia be the white theme? (Since that's the one I'm really waiting for most)

bbxstudio · May 22, 2003, 12:31 AM

Wuh? Now LoopRumors is reporting that 'themes' with soundsets will be part of panther (mmm, salty)... I wonder if they mean themes in the OS9 sense (different colored Aquas) or in the 'scheme' sense... somehow I think it's more likely the former, but the latter is a possibility I suppose - Aqua or Metal being the most obvious choices.

Hey Apple - you want some funky themes? Call on some of us loyal Mac GUI freaks

Give me the ability to add an edge here or there and I've got about 6 lined up...

NetworkShadow · May 22, 2003, 12:47 AM

Ya really! Max, Swiz, and you should work for apple for sure.

christianclark · May 22, 2003, 01:11 AM

I will not like the new look of OS-X 10.3. I don't like Metal look or flat looking.

Christian

christianclark · May 22, 2003, 01:17 AM

NetworkShadow,

Do you think OS-X 10.3 will run on PowerMac G4, 350 mhz, "first G4"?

Christian

NetworkShadow · May 22, 2003, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by christianclark:
NetworkShadow,

Do you think OS-X 10.3 will run on PowerMac G4, 350 mhz, "first G4"?

Christian

Well I had 10.1 running on a 333MHz G3 iMac, so I would think 10.3 would run on all G4s. It's hard to say though. Anyone else know more about this than me?

Well the Metal look would be optional, but I'll be happy as long as I can install themes on it.

bbx: I had heard about "themes" on 10.3 before. If this is the kind of themes we want, I hope that makes 3rd party theme changing software unneeded.

quandarry · May 30, 2003, 12:57 PM

from macosxrumors.com

"Expect to see the use of impressive, high-resolution 3D interface elements in Panther, from what we've seen recently. It may not be extremely pervasive so that Panther will still run with acceptable performance on every officially supported G3 and G4 system even as it expands to the new PowerPC 970-driven Macs....but it will be a very clear look-and-feel advance from any previous operating system Apple has ever delivered.

Even now, any system that supports 10.2's basic implementation of Quartz Extreme can pull off Aqua's animations and transparency surprisingly well. Panther will flesh out Quartz Extreme significantly, and make much better use of it. Don't be surprised to see more and more of Mac OS X -- the Dock, Finder, System Preferences, Startup Display, et cetera -- employing icons and interface elements that rotate, ripple, expand, contract, and react to user activity or input in a number of ways."

----------

hmmm?...what do ya think...i've seen some stuff like this on microshyt xp using some new part of object desktop...

quandarry · May 30, 2003, 01:40 PM

ya know...all i'd like to to see at a minimum would be borders around windows...not big fat jobbies but a few pixels maybe...and also more control of fonts like type, size and color... that would clear the way for all kinds of color themes...

that would be jammy...

i wouldn't want to see some of those gawdy k schemes with stuff sticking out all over the place...heheh