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bOOzo · Jun 25, 2003, 06:03 AM

I got the oppertunity to look into the new Extras.rsrc.

The worst thing is that they have added "Mini" states to almost all elements:
Arrow buttons
Little arrows
Popup Buttons
Push buttons
Radio buttons
Checkboxes
Combobox
Search window and search window icons
Sliders
Tabs
all come in mini states now. I don't think that any apps use them yet, but if they do they can make things really small.

Push Buttons has an even clearer/whiter appearance than in 10.2.

They've fixed the round buttons in Graphite and Clear states, were they before would go transparent if they got toggled. Now they behave correctly.

They have added the Brushed type buttons, "Segment Caps" which is like the finder View button and they have also added the Plastic style gloss buttons used in Brsuhed. They also come in Large, Small and Mini..

The new mini elements also has a different Aqua shade, more like the color of plastic buttons. I suppose they will go over all the existing Aqua elements too and change their hue.

They have also added an inactive state to the Utility Windows. And the regular Document titlebars has a third state for some reason.

There are fewer PPATs.

The new sunken titlebar buttons are exactly the same as the ones used in Metal windows, so I suppose that means we will no longer be able to specify a specific button style to Metal windows.

So it seems that they have made the Extras.rsrc much more extensive. The bad thing about that is that it will take longer to make a complete theme. The good thing is that if you do make a complete theme, it will be really complete! Since now all Apple apps will be able to get their different styled buttons from the Extras.rsrc a theme will have a much more complete effect when applied and you might be able to create consistency between all apps.

I think it's too soon to start producing 10.3 themes though, since you don't want to make the new elements and then see that they have changed again..

I will be sure to help Smeger update the ThemePark template to contain all the new elements.
And there should not be a problem updating exsisting themes using ThemeFur.

smeger · Jun 25, 2003, 07:28 AM

Good to know! If I can ever manage to get a copy of this bastard, I'll check things out and make sure that there are no major architectural changes. But at this point, I think it's safe to say that I will provide an easy migration path between Jaguar and Panther themes - it might be an updated Theme Fur or something built into ThemePark, but it'll be there.

So don't let Panther stop you from making themes now!

Max, if you get really bored, it would be cool if you (or someone) could write out the steps needed to transform a picture of a Panther button in Photoshop into all of the various pxm# images needed to actually render one. I'm going to make this automatic in ThemePark so that you just paste in a button image and TP does the rest.

Something along the lines of:

Select from left edge to 15 pixels to right of left edge, from top to bottom.
Copy
Paste into pxm# 2008, frame 3 opaque
.....

swiz · Jun 25, 2003, 07:41 AM

As soon as I opened the Panther Extras file I realized I dont think I'll be creating many new themes, it's just getting too time consuming.

I will be updating all my themes for 10.3 though when it is released.

bbxstudio · Jun 25, 2003, 07:46 AM

So are the finder toolbar buttons no longer embedded in the localized resource then? Are all the bits and pieces for just about everything in the extras.rsrc? Any idea if a new Aqua restore has to be created?

wil · Jun 25, 2003, 07:47 AM

They're defeating us with attrition!

(not that I theme anymore)

bOOzo · Jun 25, 2003, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by smeger:
Max, if you get really bored, it would be cool if you (or someone) could write out the steps needed to transform a picture of a Panther button in Photoshop into all of the various pxm# images needed to actually render one. I'm going to make this automatic in ThemePark so that you just paste in a button image and TP does the rest.

Something along the lines of:
Select from left edge to 15 pixels to right of left edge, from top to bottom.

Copy

Paste into pxm# 2008, frame 3 opaque

.....

I'm not that bored..

But couldn't you use my Theme Template actions and play them step by step? If you just follow them you will understand how the buttons are made.

So are the finder toolbar buttons no longer embedded in the localized resource then? Are all the bits and pieces for just about everything in the extras.rsrc? Any idea if a new Aqua restore has to be created?

I'm not sure if it's like this, because I haven't seen the Finder, but that is definelty how they have it planned. Because they have the caps, deviders and fills for those kinds of buttons. And they have both Plastic style aqua and regular style aqua.

As soon as I opened the Panther Extras file I realized I dont think I'll be creating many new themes, it's just getting too time consuming.

This is pretty much how I feel too. I will make a theme if I come up with something really cool, otherwise I rather stick to the ones I've made.

CarbonG4 · Jun 25, 2003, 12:22 PM

This is absolutely insane.

There are no longer separate brushed metal and aqua widgets? I don't think Meteora was meant to be

//Carbon

bbxstudio · Jun 25, 2003, 12:24 PM

Well, I'm officially now existing inside Panther (not on a mission-critical machine, mind you). Some observations:

The Appearance control panel that's been teasing us from the screenshots is in all actuality the General prefs panel from previous versions - there is no user-specified option for brushed metal over Aqua.

Expos� is the coolest f*cking thing I've ever seen - and one of the most useful OS features ever. Just brilliant.

Selected items on the desktop are now dimmed with a square box that encompasses the entire 128x128 (or scaled down) icon region... the text of selected items looks like it's labelled blue - this is confusing and frankly, it looks dumb.

By hiding the toolbar in the new Finder, window borders and the left computer/home pane disappear in addition to the toolbar. Again, kinda' messy.

The computer/home pane to the left side of the finder window can be shrunk down to nothing or snapped to icon edges (so just the icons show) by dragging the pane divider.

Fast user switching is sweet - will have to experiment to see if in-progress processes pause during a switch out or run in the background...

I haven't seen a single old-style tab anywhere yet.

As far as can tell, Finder isn't an application in the traditional sense... I can find its crash log and .plist but not the application itself... hmmmm. In fact, I'm still looking for resources in the traditional places and am coming across nada. A search for items like the extras.rsrc and localized.rsrc in the finder window and called up search window (even with invisibility access turned on) shows up nothing as well.

This requires more digging... not looking good so far...

bbxstudio · Jun 25, 2003, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by CarbonG4:
This is absolutely insane.

There are no longer separate brushed metal and aqua widgets? I don't think Meteora was meant to be

//Carbon

Tell me about it - my Mirai theme is either going to have to be entirely rethunk for Panther or be a Jaguar-only thing (which would be sad) at this point. I'm not entirely discouraged, but I hope we're able to blow the lid off this puppy.

smeger · Jun 25, 2003, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by bOOzo:
I'm not that bored..
But couldn't you use my Theme Template actions and play them step by step? If you just follow them you will understand how the buttons are made.

When I was playing with this before, I couldn't figure out how to play an action step-by-step. How do you do it?

Originally posted by bbxstudio
As far as can tell, Finder isn't an application in the traditional sense... I can find its crash log and .plist but not the application itself... hmmmm. In fact, I'm still looking for resources in the traditional places and am coming across nada. A search for items like the extras.rsrc and localized.rsrc in the finder window and called up search window (even with invisibility access turned on) shows up nothing as well.

Up until now, the Finder has been located in /System/Library/CoreServices/Finder.app/

If ThemePark's Open Special menu still works, they haven't moved anything.

bbxstudio · Jun 25, 2003, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by smeger:
If ThemePark's Open Special menu still works, they haven't moved anything.

It is there

Silly me... goes to show how much I know.

quandarry · Jun 25, 2003, 01:20 PM

have they finally trashed all the flotsom and jetsom (garbage) in the extas resource...are those scrollies
that look like potatos finally gone...jeez are they ugly or what...i'm surprized no one has made a theme using them...LOL!

bOOzo · Jun 25, 2003, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by quandarry:
have they finally trashed all the flotsom and jetsom (garbage) in the extas resource...are those scrollies
that look like potatos finally gone...jeez are they ugly or what...i'm surprized no one has made a theme using them...LOL!

Nope, they have not trashed anything, just added more. But that is exactly what the ThemePark template is for.

It is there Silly me... goes to show how much I know.

And I noticed that the Finder view buttons has been taken out of the Localized.rsrc and put into the Finder.rsrc. And they also use a different format, called simply PNG. And they are just that, but in a .rsrc file.
Smeger, you should add the abilty to edit them in ThemePark.
Too bad they don't use the Extras.rsrc.. But at least now that they are the Finder.srsc, it wont matter what language you use.

When I was playing with this before, I couldn't figure out how to play an action step-by-step. How do you do it?

You can either doubleclick each action and it will be performed, or choose from the playback options to have it pause a few second between each action.

This is absolutely insane.

There are no longer separate brushed metal and aqua widgets? I don't think Meteora was meant to be

//Carbon

Yes, it seems like it. But I guess if Metaliifizer is updated you can demettalifize all apps to get a consistent look. Or maybe it's possible to make the regular and brushed apps look the same in some way.
Don't get too bummed, it's still far away..

smeger · Jun 25, 2003, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by bOOzo:
And I noticed that the Finder view buttons has been taken out of the Localized.rsrc and put into the Finder.rsrc. And they also use a different format, called simply PNG. And they are just that, but in a .rsrc file.
Smeger, you should add the abilty to edit them in ThemePark.
Too bad they don't use the Extras.rsrc.. But at least now that they are the Finder.srsc, it wont matter what language you use.

I'll add the new resource type. Is it called "PNG " or " PNG" or what?

Sort of ironic - we finally get support for localized variants in all of our theme tools and now they're not really necessary any more (I think Duality handles the localization properly and ThemePark's Open Special menu grabs from whichever localization you have set).

bbxstudio · Jun 25, 2003, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by smeger:
I'll add the new resource type. Is it called "PNG " or " PNG" or what?

Do these PNG files support alpha transparency?

digitaljames · Jun 25, 2003, 03:41 PM

But of course my young Jedi....

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
Do these PNG files support alpha transparency?

bOOzo · Jun 25, 2003, 04:30 PM

They are called "PNG", and they are PNGs with a layer with transparancy in it.
To extract it in Resorcerer I copy the data fork from on PNG file, make a new file and paste it into that data fork. Then I save it as .png and I can open it in Photoshop.

bbxstudio · 05:00 PM

So far it seems like PPAT use has been really cleaned up throughout the system... so far I've only encountered PPAT#2124 in all dialogs, alerts, login panel and window backgrounds - but Photoshop is using 2125 in the familiar patchwork manner. I have yet to see any of the others used anywhere. More on this as I explore...

Update - ran into patchwork use of 2130 in a network error box in Finder... also in connect to server dialog. Seeing a serious mishmash of PPATs in AppearanceSample. Dang...

bbxstudio · Jun 25, 2003, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by bOOzo:

The new sunken titlebar buttons are exactly the same as the ones used in Metal windows, so I suppose that means we will no longer be able to specify a specific button style to Metal windows.

I'm seeing seperate resources for both standard Aqua widgets and Metal Window widgets, but you're right - the system is calling on the Metal buttons throughout, leaving previous resources for Aqua widgets alone - except for in the case of small Aqua widget buttons, which are called on system-wide (there are no longer small MetalWindow widgets).

mrtew · Jun 25, 2003, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
I'm seeing seperate resources for both standard Aqua widgets and Metal Window widgets, but you're right - the system is calling on the Metal buttons throughout, leaving previous resources for Aqua widgets alone - except for in the case of small Aqua widget buttons, which are called on system-wide (there are no longer small MetalWindow widgets).

How can you guys tell what is being called on and what resources are never used anymore at all?

bbxstudio · Jun 25, 2003, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by mrtew:
How can you guys tell what is being called on and what resources are never used anymore at all?

I just fill resources with solid color and note the changes... and once you play with Panther a bit you notice that all large widgets are the Metal ones and all small widgets are the Aqua ones. Still lots to decipher though.

bbxstudio · Jun 26, 2003, 09:52 AM

Has anybody figured out why the extra bevel resources for Metal windows yet? There are multiple sets in the same resource for some reason... hmmm - maybe Apple's not done with the design yet...

bOOzo · Jun 26, 2003, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
Has anybody figured out why the extra bevel resources for Metal windows yet? There are multiple sets in the same resource for some reason... hmmm - maybe Apple's not done with the design yet...

I saw them too. The only reason I can think of why Apple would want to change the bevel is because the bottom rounded corners are jagged.
They also have a unused state for the document titlebar.

monkeybrain · Jun 26, 2003, 10:47 AM

Can we toggle finder metal off by opening the .nib file up?

bbxstudio · Jun 26, 2003, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by bOOzo:
I saw them too. The only reason I can think of why Apple would want to change the bevel is because the bottom rounded corners are jagged.
They also have a unused state for the document titlebar.

Even scarier - poke around and you'll see that the Finder is using the metal gradient/texture resources differently - it ignores any RGB information in the texture resource (in Jaguar, I would simply fill the texture and gradient resources with the same large graphic to get one big metal window tile - impossible now). This requires further exploration...

bbxstudio · Jun 26, 2003, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by monkeybrain:
Can we toggle finder metal off by opening the .nib file up?

Yes, ultimately the coolest possibility would be the ability to turn off Finder metal altogether - anybody know how to do this?

bOOzo · Jun 26, 2003, 11:59 AM

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
Even scarier - poke around and you'll see that the Finder is using the metal gradient/texture resources differently - it ignores any RGB information in the texture resource (in Jaguar, I would simply fill the texture and gradient resources with the same large graphic to get one big metal window tile - impossible now). This requires further exploration...

That sounds bad.. I aonly have the Extras.rsrc from Panther so I can't poke around no matter how much I want too..!

swiz · Jun 26, 2003, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
Yes, ultimately the coolest possibility would be the ability to turn off Finder metal altogether - anybody know how to do this?

Actually you cant, there is no .nib file for the actual Finder window; only its components such as About this Mac, Get Info and the like.

bOOzo · Jun 26, 2003, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by swiz:
Actually you cant, there is no .nib file for the actual Finder window; only its components such as About this Mac, Get Info and the like.

Am sure there must be a way to do it. Weren't they gonna allow Carbon apps to use Metal? Then there must be way to set it and a way to remove it.. I hope.

bbxstudio · Jun 26, 2003, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by bOOzo:
Am sure there must be a way to do it. Weren't they gonna allow Carbon apps to use Metal? Then there must be way to set it and a way to remove it.. I hope.

There's a line in the Finder executable file that says:

DrawWindowMetalOverContentRelativeRegion

and elsewhere:

GetThemeBrushAsColor

???

Hmmm...

smeger · Jun 26, 2003, 05:54 PM

In Carbon, whether a window is metal or not is determined at compile-time by whether or not the flag kWindowMetalAttribute is passed to CreateNewWindow.

Translation: It'll take either a binary patch or an APE to change it.

bbxstudio · Jun 26, 2003, 08:03 PM

Originally posted by smeger:
In Carbon, whether a window is metal or not is determined at compile-time by whether or not the flag kWindowMetalAttribute is passed to CreateNewWindow.

Translation: It'll take either a binary patch or an APE to change it.

I could live with it if the new finder were able to display metal window fills like every other metal window app in the OS - right now it's limited to grayscale (or at the very least implemented in a different way than it is in every other app that calls on it ie. Safari, iChat). Unless somebody figures this out or Apple fixes the implementation prior to release, I'm throwing in the towel and saying goodbye to theming OSX for good. I'm not going to spend any more valuable time trying to skin OSX until somebody cracks the API or Apple gives in and supports themes (or at least makes it possible to do anything other than a grayscale OS). It may sound fickle, but I'm seriously considering moving to Windows just so I can keep producing OS skins... the Mac is quickly becoming a watered-down Aquafied wasteland - extremely unfriendly territory to GUI artists at this point. So not only have they uglified their operating system, they're making it impossible for anybody to do anything about it.

Sage · Jun 26, 2003, 08:35 PM

I know it's probably futile, but please don't leave if themeing turns for the worse, BBX...

Your themes and way of themeing is so unique in that they have been refined so, so many times, and that you give out "complete kits"... the icons, the wallpaper, even instructions on how to make the Dock match! I think it would be a real blow to the themeing community if you left - Few people have the same kind of dedication that you do. You're also one of the few people who can make the OS look so damned good without having any hint of Aqua in it.

I know it's still too early for you to make a decision, but regardless, you know that you have a strong Mac community behind you.

NetworkShadow · Jun 26, 2003, 11:58 PM

Originally posted by Sage:
I know it's probably futile, but please don't leave if themeing turns for the worse, BBX... Your themes and way of themeing is so unique in that they have been refined so, so many times, and that you give out "complete kits"... the icons, the wallpaper, even instructions on how to make the Dock match! I think it would be a real blow to the themeing community if you left - Few people have the same kind of dedication that you do. You're also one of the few people who can make the OS look so damned good without having any hint of Aqua in it.

I know it's still too early for you to make a decision, but regardless, you know that you have a strong Mac community behind you.

I feel the same way. Stupid Apple.

SwarmyCurve · Jun 27, 2003, 12:29 AM

I don't understand these threats to leave the mac platform just because they aren't as easy to theme... Not to be rude, but why not work on bringing the long (very long) in progress themes for 10.2 to fruitation before you fret over 10.3. I think new ways to theme will emerge, just as they did in the beginnings of OS X.

bbxstudio · Jun 27, 2003, 12:58 AM

Yeah, maybe I am overreacting a bit. But to be honest, I'm getting pretty discouraged. Theming this OS has been very difficult - just when I'm coming to terms with all of the compromises and the ins and outs of Aqua, they go and make it even more difficult (and change the very thing I was finally coming to terms with). I may just release Mirai anyways and then hold off for awhile and tinker until things get a little more flexible... just so frustrating to have taken all that time trying to come up with the perfect fit into Aqua's footprint only to release a theme with such a limited lifespan.

quandarry · Jun 27, 2003, 01:25 AM

ok...now i'm confused...very !

no one has mentioned if you press the tool bar button the dreaded finder window is no more and it just becomes regular windows...well almost...i don't seem to have those stripeless white titlebars...all my windows are metalized...what's up with that? not that i mind, mind you...

maybe it's my eyes but the scrolls look a little less liquid and also have a kinda metallic glint to them...idunno...

and after looking in the extras rsrc and seeing what i saw...i am officially quitting theming before i even release a theme...it's a bits and pieces nightmare...my solid as a rock nerves couldn't take the pressure!!

NetworkShadow · Jun 27, 2003, 01:39 AM

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
Yeah, maybe I am overreacting a bit. But to be honest, I'm getting pretty discouraged. Theming this OS has been very difficult - just when I'm coming to terms with all of the compromises and the ins and outs of Aqua, they go and make it even more difficult (and change the very thing I was finally coming to terms with). I may just release Mirai anyways and then hold off for awhile and tinker until things get a little more flexible... just so frustrating to have taken all that time trying to come up with the perfect fit into Aqua's footprint only to release a theme with such a limited lifespan.

yay get Mirai out finaly!

I hope a way around this comes up because I don't think I could ever go back to Aqua, and most of all not to the Panther Aqua.

Maybe themes will have to be long term projects now? Quality not quantity would matter.

But then again I haven't seen what the extras.rsrc looks like yet...

This might call for some kind of petition or something... We need to make Apple hear what we want.

bbxstudio · Jun 27, 2003, 10:07 AM

When I get around to it, I'm probably going to write an open letter to Apple and post it on mt website - it will point to the long history and poipularity of customization on the Mac, its influence on customization on every platform, and its sad and eventual demise at the hands of OSX and especially Panther. We'll see what that does (if anything). Things were going well with Jaguar and could continue if only Apple would handle brushed metal in the new Finder in a manner consistent with their other iApps.

Sage · Jun 27, 2003, 10:16 AM

BBX - Will you release Utopia too? That's the one theme I'm really, really dying for, since I have an iceBook.

bbxstudio · Jun 27, 2003, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by Sage:
BBX - Will you release Utopia too? That's the one theme I'm really, really dying for, since I have an iceBook.

Well, Utopia's non-gray as well (and it's metal window effect won't currently work in Panther. I hope so.

smeger · Jun 27, 2003, 12:08 PM

There seems to be quite a bit of hysteria in this thread based on an alpha release of an operating system that won't be released for another 4-6 months.

It is quite possible that Apple will change the current implementation before release. It's also quite possible that theme development tools will improve between now and then and render the new problems moot (I'm planning on this).

I think it's too early to make any judgements about Panther compatibility. Just keep on with Jag themes and I'll keep on working on a seamless upgrade solution.

iFix Rene · Jun 27, 2003, 12:22 PM

BBX thnx for this tip....
The computer/home pane to the left side of the finder window can be shrunk down to nothing or SNAPPED TO ICON EDGES (so just the icons show) by dragging the pane divider.
(end quote)

you can actually just click the dot and ithe
sidebar will slide out/ in

but I liked your tip coz it said you have only
icons and not names showing in sidebar...
this way it doesnt take up TOO much screen
estate

thnx!

Sage · Jun 27, 2003, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
Well, Utopia's non-gray as well (and it's metal window effect won't currently work in Panther. I hope so.

But I mean, will you release it for Jaguar at least?

bbxstudio · Jun 27, 2003, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by Sage:
But I mean, will you release it for Jaguar at least?

I'm going to press ahead on Jaguar for now I guess. We'll see how far I get before I have to upgrade (as soon as Panther hits I'm buying a G5). I really hope these Panther issues are fixed and we can actually skin the OS.

quandarry · Jun 27, 2003, 02:29 PM

i just dropped the 10.3 panther extras rsrc into one of my macs running jag 10.2.6 just for fun to see if anything would disappear or appear...i rebooted and everything went ok...of course it uses the raised window buttons on the white titlebars...i have the menu dividers...so far it's just like using the panther theme except for the main push buttons are different...

iFix Rene · 02:39 PM

hey thats my icon dammit!!
well as long as you enjoy using it on your desktop and do not abuse it any further
its oke I guess.

from my set FinderMoods at http://homepage.mac.com/littlestar/icons.html:

quandarry · Jun 27, 2003, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by iFix Rene:
hey thats my icon dammit!!
well as long as you enjoy using it on your desktop and do not abuse it any further
its oke I guess.

from my set FinderMoods at http://homepage.mac.com/littlestar/icons.html:

yup that's my finder icon replacement...it's fits the way i feel most of the time...i think it's a lot better than that happy-go-lucky guy...good work...

NetworkShadow · Jun 27, 2003, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
When I get around to it, I'm probably going to write an open letter to Apple and post it on mt website - it will point to the long history and poipularity of customization on the Mac, its influence on customization on every platform, and its sad and eventual demise at the hands of OSX and especially Panther. We'll see what that does (if anything). Things were going well with Jaguar and could continue if only Apple would handle brushed metal in the new Finder in a manner consistent with their other iApps.

I'd sign any letters you write to Apple.

iFix Rene · 10:24 AM

never mind