[headbirth]

The only problem I have with the current state of themeing is this one hole in the interface ... the junction of the two scrollbars leaves a white square. Is there simply no resource for that corner that Apple left empty because it fits with the current Aqua interface or is it no one has found where this item exists?

Actually, there is one other elemnent I find anoying .... not being able to colorize backgrounds in column view

[swiz]

Originally posted by headbirth:
The only problem I have with the current state of themeing is this one hole in the interface ... the junction of the two scrollbars leaves a white square. Is there simply no resource for that corner that Apple left empty because it fits with the current Aqua interface or is it no one has found where this item exists?

Actually, there is one other elemnent I find anoying .... not being able to colorize backgrounds in column view

These two things are VERY annoying.

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by swiz:
These two things are VERY annoying.

Don't even get me started...

[intastella]

"Don't even get me started..."

Aw come on, get started

Seriously, I'd like to hear it.

[swiz]

Originally posted by intastella:
"Don't even get me started..."

Aw come on, get started

Seriously, I'd like to hear it.

Now you asked for it, bbx is gonna compose the longest thread macnn has ever seen. Just watch.
Hit it Billy

[gdiddy]

I think we all know my beloved Zimphire easily holds the all time champ-een record for thread length.

BBX you can give it a shot. Be sure to use the old "quote and answer" method.

Simple solution: Only make aqua color variations!

[mrtew]

dp

[Zimphire]

gdiddy still can't stop talking about me.

[fireside]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
gdiddy still can't stop talking about me.

its because you're so kewl

[mrtew]

I don't like either of those things either! Until BBX gets his rant on maybe someone could answer me a question.... is that stupid white square still there in Panther? (I'm pretty sure the columns are still white). If so I am considering making a 'White Square' theme with white squares everywhere so that one is not so stupid looking!

[joltguy]

Actually, while we're complaining about background colours in the Finder, I thought I'd throw in that it really blows that you're essentially limited to using light background colours or images because no matter what you do, the filenames always appear in black text.

I put this in a feedback to Apple a very long time ago. It just seems so obvious.

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by swiz:
Now you asked for it, bbx is gonna compose the longest thread macnn has ever seen. Just watch.
Hit it Billy

No no - not this time

The list for things I'd like to see changed/implemented for the good of theming is endless...

But there are some stupid things I'd like to see cleaned up:

1. Toolbar button mouseover state - it's in the resources, all the other titlebar buttons do it - so why does it just sit there? Ridiculous.

2. Toolbar icon's disabled state - 50% white overlay? C'mon Apple, you've got transparency... use it already.

3. That white f*cking square.

4. Redundant resources - instead of doing stupid things like limiting the metal gradients in Panther's finder to grayscale to conserve resources, HOW ABOUT DUMPING THE DOZENS OF REDUNDANT RESOURCES FROM THE %@#!!* EXTRAS.RSRC FILE ALREADY???!!!

5. The itermittent 'selected' list sort button in Finder bug (you know, the one where a tiny disabled-state square is left in the upper left-hand corner of the leftmost list sort button when it's in the selected state and the window has just gone from inactive to active).

6. PPATS - why are window backgrounds made up from hundreds of strips and patches from different PPATS when you could get away with using 1 and just fill the window with it. D'oh!

7. Settle on an Aqua gloss appearance already - we've got, what 3 different styles running concurrently now?

8. Brushed metal - it kinda looked like brushed metal in the mid-nineties, but in this day and age, c'mon... not only doesn't it look like real brushed metal, it looks like the brushed metal trick in chapter one of every Photoshop how-to book ever published. And it has no connection with your hardware (nor did it ever) And true metal isn't pure grayscale by a long shot, And the bevels are sloppy and soft And there's too much border space And those crappy gray plastic buttons you tend to sidle it with look retarded, And...

9. Lucida Grande - could you have possibly picked a wimpier font? I think not. We had the option of changing this since System 8, what gives?

10. Why is the menubar 1 pixel taller than the titlebar? Why, huh?

11. Default button 'pulse' state - should be unique resource no? Nope, let's conserve resource usage by using the pressed state and ignore the fact that dozens of redundant resources are littering the system.

The list goes on, but you get the idea...

[catsank]

bbxstudio - with so many interesting and thought
provoking ideas why not go for a job with the
Apple interface design dept...right some wrongs !

[gdiddy]

AMEN!

[headbirth]

Has anyone else ever noticed the cropping of Desktop Icons by the Label field? Only happens when Labels are on the Right.

[mrtew]

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
1. Toolbar button mouseover state - it's in the resources, all the other titlebar buttons do it - so why does it just sit there? Ridiculous.

BBX, I agree with every one of those as I'm sure that everyone who's done much themeing does, but number 1. really gets to me! I am 99% sure that the toolbar button DID respond to a mouseover in 10.0. I remember gliding over it and seeing it turn blue. And even when I made the first version of my theme in 10.1 I remember the lights coming on in my toolbar button when I got near it. Please tell me I'm not crazy. This only got broken with Jaguar didn't it? Either Apple's losing it, or I am.

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by mrtew:
BBX, I agree with every one of those as I'm sure that everyone who's done much themeing does, but number 1. really gets to me! I am 99% sure that the toolbar button DID respond to a mouseover in 10.0. I remember gliding over it and seeing it turn blue. And even when I made the first version of my theme in 10.1 I remember the lights coming on in my toolbar button when I got near it. Please tell me I'm not crazy. This only got broken with Jaguar didn't it? Either Apple's losing it, or I am.

I think it worked in public beta and maybe 10.0... but I think it broke in one of the first point releases (10.1?). It did work at one time - I'm sure of it. It's just stupid that it's broken now, though. I hate it, really messes with my theme designs.

[Mike S.]

It seems rather clear that Apple isn't going to be responsive to GUI changes and as far as I know, they never have been.

Historically, themeing has been the realm of third parties. Kaleidoscope on the Mac and Windowblinds/Object Desktop on Windows.

Why hasn't somebody come along and tried to create the ultimate theming app for OS X? If the OS itself is limited in what it will allow then we need something that isn't limited.

Kaleidoscope essentially drew on top of everything, IIR. Not ideal but it worked and provided a virtually unlimited canvas.

OS X is running BSD for goodness sakes, you can make anything happen with the right talent.

Perhaps create a more flexible window manager that intercepts calls to Apple's or watches for calls and mimics them.

Can something like Enlightenment be used as a starting point? If so, it would beat starting from scratch.

I was told by someone on an Apple developer mailing list once that, "anything is possible, it's just a matter of code."

If I had programming talent I'd look into it but alas I do not. Has anybody done any research into what would be involved with such a program? If it could be done on Windows 9x and Mac OS it can be done on OS X.

[swiz]

Originally posted by Mike S.:
It seems rather clear that Apple isn't going to be responsive to GUI changes and as far as I know, they never have been.

Historically, themeing has been the realm of third parties. Kaleidoscope on the Mac and Windowblinds/Object Desktop on Windows.

Why hasn't somebody come along and tried to create the ultimate theming app for OS X? If the OS itself is limited in what it will allow then we need something that isn't limited.

Kaleidoscope essentially drew on top of everything, IIR. Not ideal but it worked and provided a virtually unlimited canvas.

OS X is running BSD for goodness sakes, you can make anything happen with the right talent.

Perhaps create a more flexible window manager that intercepts calls to Apple's or watches for calls and mimics them.

Can something like Enlightenment be used as a starting point? If so, it would beat starting from scratch.

I was told by someone on an Apple developer mailing list once that, "anything is possible, it's just a matter of code."

If I had programming talent I'd look into it but alas I do not. Has anybody done any research into what would be involved with such a program? If it could be done on Windows 9x and Mac OS it can be done on OS X.

I would think so also but I think the biggest hinderance to this happening is how much time it would take to create such a robust product, while those who use themes in OSX are a small enough number where the return would not be sufficient for the developer.

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by swiz:
I would think so also but I think the biggest hinderance to this happening is how much time it would take to create such a robust product, while those who use themes in OSX are a small enough number where the return would not be sufficient for the developer.

Not true... a robust and flexible theming app for OSX could be a very successful piece of software, but it would need a few things... first off, some extensive themes (I would say a half-dozen off the bat) that rivaled Aqua in terms of their polish and broad appeal; second, some good advertising, including print in leading industry magazines - well designed and advertised like any other funky hardware or software product there's no reason why it wouldn't appeal to a great many Mac users (we're a vain bunch); thirdly, a good developer support system including concise and easy to understand reference materials (something we don't currently have). Grassroots development (and user-created themes) would have to be a secondary thing - the main focus would need to be very high-quality commercial interfaces with new ones released at regular intervals. These are the early days still (as hard as that may be to believe) - as computing becomes ubiquitous and reaches the 'golden convergence' near-appliance level (with virtual user interfaces for absolutely anything functional), interface fashions will become more and more important (or at least relevant) to end users. It's just like cars, at first you could have any color, "just as long as it's black" (Henry Ford) - people didn't mind so much because it was so revolutionary and practical, not yet a lifestyle product. Now auto sales are driven by lifestyle and fashion. Industrial design is becoming a huge part of any real-world product's measure of success (for everything from trash cans to toothbrushes) - the same is becoming true with virtual-world products. You'll see - right now people are content with the dribble they're fed because they don't know any different (that sure is a fancy compooter, hyuk hyuk)... give it a few years and consumer tastes will have grown to expect more sophisticated (and fashionable, therefore varied) interface options.

[mrtew]

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
... give it a few years and consumer tastes will have grown to expect more sophisticated (and fashionable, therefore varied) interface options.

I sure hope you're right. What I see as the biggest enemy of theming is fear. Viruses and their media coverage have made people scared of theming and I can see it getting worse. Read the reviews of unSanity's haxies on versiontracker. People rail against messing with the 'system' and say you're just asking for trouble. I see posts here all the time from people saying that they are woried about 'instability' caused by themes. I even have a friend that is very into Macs who's still using OS9 because he's heard OSX is 'buggy' and wants to wait until they get it working perfectly. I know these are examples of unfounded, unreasonable fear-based thinking but they are becoming more common these days it seems.
If Apple included a control panel for 'Appearance' and had a few good themes built in it would be a dream come true for themers and would be accepted by most everyone easily, but when theming is relegated to the status of a 'hack' that you download and install, most people are going to be a little leery. It sure doesn't help when the installers are buggier than the themes themselves though, so maybe if a good replacement for Kaleidoscope was created people would go for it. It's something I'd sure love to see!

[swiz]

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
Not true... a robust and flexible theming app for OSX could be a very successful piece of software, but it would need a few things... first off, some extensive themes (I would say a half-dozen off the bat) that rivaled Aqua in terms of their polish and broad appeal; second, some good advertising, including print in leading industry magazines - well designed and advertised like any other funky hardware or software product there's no reason why it wouldn't appeal to a great many Mac users (we're a vain bunch); thirdly, a good developer support system including concise and easy to understand reference materials (something we don't currently have). Grassroots development (and user-created themes) would have to be a secondary thing - the main focus would need to be very high-quality commercial interfaces with new ones released at regular intervals. These are the early days still (as hard as that may be to believe) - as computing becomes ubiquitous and reaches the 'golden convergence' near-appliance level (with virtual user interfaces for absolutely anything functional), interface fashions will become more and more important (or at least relevant) to end users. It's just like cars, at first you could have any color, "just as long as it's black" (Henry Ford) - people didn't mind so much because it was so revolutionary and practical, not yet a lifestyle product. Now auto sales are driven by lifestyle and fashion. Industrial design is becoming a huge part of any real-world product's measure of success (for everything from trash cans to toothbrushes) - the same is becoming true with virtual-world products. You'll see - right now people are content with the dribble they're fed because they don't know any different (that sure is a fancy compooter, hyuk hyuk)... give it a few years and consumer tastes will have grown to expect more sophisticated (and fashionable, therefore varied) interface options.

Very true but dont overlook the fact that people are very fickle as well and most will probably use said software until they cant take the nag-ware to purchase then leave it behind shrugging their shoulders. Without purchasing.

[intastella]

I'm wondering if the under the hood problems of merging all the API types (carbon, cocoa, java, etc.), compounded with a new UI system is what is keeping it from happening in the near future.

I want a sophisticated theme system built into the OS. Like BBX said, I think it will happen eventually. But I'm afraid it will take an OS 11 type rewrite of the UI to do so though.

[Mike S.]

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
Not true... a robust and flexible theming app for OSX could be a very successful piece of software, but it would need a few things... first off, some extensive themes (I would say a half-dozen off the bat) that rivaled Aqua in terms of their polish and broad appeal; second, some good advertising, including print in leading industry magazines - well designed and advertised like any other funky hardware or software product there's no reason why it wouldn't appeal to a great many Mac users (we're a vain bunch);

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't recall seeing major advertisements for Kaleidoscope or even Windowblinds/Object Desktop.

I heard about both online.

Kaleidoscope was mere shareware but it was very popular.

Theming is very much a community kind of product. I think most couldn't care less about switching colors and appearances but for those that do it's a compelling product.

It's just like cars, at first you could have any color, "just as long as it's black" (Henry Ford) - people didn't mind so much because it was so revolutionary and practical, not yet a lifestyle product. Now auto sales are driven by lifestyle and fashion. Industrial design is becoming a huge part of any real-world product's measure of success (for everything from trash cans to toothbrushes) - the same is becoming true with virtual-world products. You'll see - right now people are content with the dribble they're fed because they don't know any different (that sure is a fancy compooter, hyuk hyuk)... give it a few years and consumer tastes will have grown to expect more sophisticated (and fashionable, therefore varied) interface options.

I don't know how well this analogy applies to themes today. Yes, design is a very important element in consumer choice today but these are fixed. Once you buy the design, it can't be changed. Nobody is clamoring for cars/televisions/toasters with interchangeable appearances.

However, GMs vision of the future is customizable cars. You buy a family sedan but can later go to your GM dealer and buy a kit that turns it into an SUV, or a sporty convertible. It's really a neat idea.

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by Mike S.:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't recall seeing major advertisements for Kaleidoscope or even Windowblinds/Object Desktop.

I heard about both online.

Kaleidoscope was mere shareware but it was very popular.

Theming is very much a community kind of product. I think most couldn't care less about switching colors and appearances but for those that do it's a compelling product.

You made my point exactly - up until now these things have been 'nicheware'... why? Exactly because of the points I made - they lack sophisticated default appearances and are only advertised in banner ads and the like. You don't think if Apple started producing sophisticated theme packs and advertised them like they do their other products that they wouldn't any more popular than Kaleidoscope or WindowBlinds? Sure these products are (were) popular but only within a small percentage of the user population. We haven't seen it done 'bigtime' yet.

Originally posted by Mike S.:
I don't know how well this analogy applies to themes today. Yes, design is a very important element in consumer choice today but these are fixed. Once you buy the design, it can't be changed. Nobody is clamoring for cars/televisions/toasters withinterchangeable appearances.

However, GMs vision of the future is customizable cars. You buy a family sedan but can later go to your GM dealer and buy a kit that turns it into an SUV, or a sporty convertible. It's really a neat idea.

But the outward design is what sells the products in the first place. Consumers aren't clamoring for interchangeable appearances, but they are buying the sharpest looking product and expect variety in the marketplace. Like you said, the reference to real world objects is just an analogy - but it will become more appropriate as time progresses. Interfaces are unique in that their appearance can be changed without altering the functions they perform - you don't think that if it were suddenly possible to buy wallpaper that changed color or morphable furniture that it would sell? Sure it would

We're talking about the future here... like I said, these are the early days

[Mike S.]

I get it now, you're looking at the really big picture while I'm thinking smaller.

I want to theme OS X, you want to theme the world

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by Mike S.:
I get it now, you're looking at the really big picture while I'm thinking smaller.

I want to theme OS X, you want to theme the world

Yesssss... now you see my plans - and they called me insane... Bwahahahahahahahahaha

[fireside]

** gives bbx his shots **