[moki]

Given that Indonesia, Jordan, Morocco, Pakistan and the Palestinian Authority are prone to chosing Osama bin Laden as a political leader they trust to "do the right thing", they are digging their own political grave.

I'm not surprised we're more isolated now; a rift after the war was expected. Let's see if that sentiment doesn't change as Iraq gets back on its feet, and if there is a settlement to the Israeli/Palestine issue.

BTW, read the entire article, it also talks about the even more dramatic shift in how Americans view countries in Europe.

from: http://www.iht.com/articles/98398.html

.....

Poll shows U.S. isolation: In war's wake, hostility and mistrust
Meg Bortin/IHT International Herald Tribune
Tuesday, June 3, 2003
_
PARIS The war in Iraq has widened the rift between the United States and the rest of the world, with a steep plunge in Americans' views of their traditional allies and a further surge of anti-Americanism in Muslim countries, a global opinion survey shows.

The poll of more than 15,000 people in 20 countries and the Palestinian Authority, conducted in May by the nonpartisan Pew Research Center, also showed a significant loss of faith in two major international institutions created out of the ashes of World War II - the United Nations and NATO.

"The figures show that the publics - the European public and our public - are feeling that the ties that have bound us together for the last 50 years are weakening," said Madeleine Albright, the former U.S. secretary of state and chair of the Pew Global Attitudes Project. "I see this as very serious."
The poll forcefully supported the finding of an earlier survey that a U.S. war with Iraq would fuel anti-American sentiment.

As could be expected, this feeling is strongest in the Muslim world, where negative attitudes toward the United States have soared since the war on Iraq began March 20 with a wave of American air attacks over Baghdad.

One of the most extreme shifts was seen in Turkey, where the government, heeding popular sentiment, decided not to allow United States to use its soil as a base for attacks on Iraq although Washington and Ankara are partners in NATO.

The poll found that 83 percent of Turks now have an unfavorable opinion of the United States, up from 55 percent last summer.

The swing was even sharper in Indonesia, where Islamic radicalism has been rising since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks in New York and Washington.

While 75 percent had a favorable opinion of the United States in 2000, 83 percent now have an unfavorable view. Similar levels of animosity hold sway in the Palestinian Authority and Jordan.

In fact, feelings are so intense in the Islamic world that Osama bin Laden was chosen by five Muslim publics - in Indonesia, Jordan, Morocco, Pakistan and the Palestinian Authority - as one of the three political leaders they would most trust to "do the right thing" in world affairs.

Andrew Kohut, director of the Pew Research Center, said he had been surprised by the extent to which "the bottom has fallen out" in the Muslim world.

"Anti-Americanism has deepened, but it has also widened," he said. "You now find it in the far reaches of Africa - in Nigeria, among Muslims - and in Indonesia. People see America as a real threat. They think we're going to invade them."
In Europe, in contrast, the image of the United States has improved since a poll in March, just before the onset of hostilities in Iraq. Yet favorable views among America's main allies in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization remain sharply down from levels last year.

In France, Germany and Spain, where public anger over the U.S. war plans spilled massively into the streets this winter, fewer than 50 percent have a positive view of the United States, the poll showed.

Among the French, who took an uncharacteristically univocal stand in opposing the war, favorable opinion of the United States has recovered to 43 percent - up from what Pew describes as the "abysmal" level of 31 percent in March, but well below the 63 percent favorable rating of last summer.

The Germans, who joined the French at the head of Europe's anti-war front, also remain wary of the United States, with 45 percent having a favorable opinion, up from 25 percent in March but down from 61 percent in the summer of 2002.

Animosity is far stronger on the other side of the Atlantic, where Americans were infuriated by the failure of traditional allies - and especially the French - to back them in the war.

Only 29 percent of Americans now say they have a very favorable or somewhat favorable view of France, down from 79 percent in February 2002. And just 44 percent of Americans take a favorable view of Germany now - a dramatic plunge from 83 percent in February 2002.

"The figures confirm that the Iraq crisis has precipitated a profound crisis in trans-Atlantic relations, which I think had been building for some time," said Timothy Garton Ash, author and director of the European Studies Center at Oxford.

"The deepest cause is the end of the Cold War and the fact that we no longer have a common enemy - the Soviet Union."
Among the West European allies, favorable opinion of the United States is strongest by far in Britain, America's chief partner in the war despite considerable domestic opposition to the cooperation provided by Prime Minister Tony Blair. Positive views among the British have bounced back to 70 percent, up from 48 percent in March.

(continues)

[moki]

(continued)

Favorable opinion among the allies is weakest in Spain, where the government ignored overwhelming popular opposition to the war and backed the United States and Britain.

Only 38 percent of Spaniards now have a positive opinion of the United States - a big increase, however, from 14 percent in March.

The hostility in Spain is not limited to U.S. policies but extends to Americans as people - fewer than half have a positive impression. But approval of "the American people" remains solid in France, where 58 percent have a favorable view, Germany (67 percent), Italy (77 percent, up 3 points since last summer) and Britain (80 percent).

Asked if they had an unfavorable view of the United States because of George W. Bush or a more general problem with America, a majority in Western Europe blamed the president. Nearly three quarters in France and Germany blame Bush, as do two-thirds in Italy and six out of 10 in Britain.

Bush, said Garton Ash, stirred European resentment by "basically giving key allies like France and Germany the feeling that, 'We don't really care whether you're with us or not,'" and in forcing the timetable. "If Bush had given us a few more months of negotiation he could probably have got the Europeans on board," he said.

"Especially now that we know Saddam didn't have a nuclear weapon in the cellar ready to use."
One casualty of the increased strains between America and Europe is NATO. A more independent approach to security and diplomatic affairs for Western Europe was favored by more than three-quarters in France, more than six out of 10 in Spain, Turkey and Italy, and 57 percent in Germany.

Britons are divided on the idea of loosening the partnership, with 51 percent favoring continued close ties and 45 percent wanting a more independent approach.

Even in the United States, a big minority - 39 percent - favors an easing of the security and diplomatic bonds that have cemented the alliance since the end of World War II.

"For those of us who care about NATO, this is a red flag," Albright said. "The only way to get beyond this is to find more ways we can work together in NATO. I think it's a relevant organization, but it can't be relevant if you don't work at it."
Another casualty of the war is the credibility of the United Nations, where protracted bickering in the run-up to the Iraq war failed to prevent hostilities.

"Favorability ratings for the world body have tumbled in 16 of the 18 countries for which benchmark figures are available," the Pew report notes. "Majorities or pluralities in most countries believe that the war in Iraq showed the UN to be less important than it once was."
In fact, not a single country surveyed has a majority who believes that the United Nations still plays an important role in dealing with international conflicts.

A further consequence of the war is a new decline in post-9/11 sympathy for the United States. Since last summer, support for America's war on terror has dropped to 60 percent from 75 percent in France, to 60 percent from 70 percent in Germany and to 51 percent from 73 percent in Russia.

Over the same period, opposition to the war on terror has swelled to more than 70 percent in Pakistan and Turkey and to 97 percent in Jordan.

With the exception of Israel, Nigeria and the United States itself, all the countries surveyed judge U.S. policies to be too unilateralist. Fully 85 percent of the French said they felt that the United States did not take into account the interests of other countries. At least seven out of 10 shared this sentiment in South Korea, Spain, Russia and Canada, as did two thirds in Australia and Germany.

Majorities in most countries polled reject the so-called Bush doctrine of military preemption. Those with majorities backing the doctrine were traditional U.S. allies - Canada, Britain, Australia and Israel - as well as Pakistan, which is involved in a military face-off with India over Kashmir and where fully 70 percent said that "military force against countries that may seriously threaten our country, but have not attacked us," can be often or sometimes justified.

As for the conduct of the war itself, majorities in every country surveyed except Spain and Turkey felt their own government made the right decision to use or not use force, or offer bases to the United States, as the case may be.

Still, majorities in many countries that opposed the use of force say they believe Iraqis are better off since the ouster of Saddam Hussein. In France and Germany, more than three-quarters say this is the case, and 70 percent in Spain agree.

Among the populations surveyed, Muslims were divided on this, with majorities or pluralities in Nigeria, Lebanon and Kuwait saying Iraqis were better off without Saddam, while most people in Turkey, Indonesia, Pakistan, Jordan and the Palestinian Authority said the Iraqis were worse off.

Underlying some of the opinions that have emerged since the war are attitudes on national identity and social values uncovered in an earlier Pew survey of more than 38,000 people in 44 countries.

The survey, conducted in 2002, demonstrated broad acceptance of U.S. ideals like democracy, the free-market model and, surprisingly, even globalization.

Yet at the same time, people in many countries see their way of life as threatened and want protection from foreign influence.

This feeling is strongest of all in Turkey, which feared being drawn into fighting in Iraq and where, even before the war, nearly 90 percent said their way of life needed defending.

[Spliffdaddy]

Yeah, well...that's hardly news.

I believe the rest of the world has a unflattering opinion of the US. There is no doubt about that. But, even still, I don't believe the US is a 'threat' to anybody. I think we are misunderstood. You know how you feel compelled to share fun things with other people? Things that make you happy are fun to share. Well, we feel compelled to share 'the American Dream' with the rest of the world.

It's something we love so much that nobody can take it from us - nobody can threaten it. It's one of the only things worth dying for.

Something must be wrong with you if you don't want the American Dream. You must not understand it.

You have something better? let's see it work. Prove it to us by creating a better society than America has - or shut up.

[moki]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
You have something better? let's see it work. Prove it to us by creating a better society than America has - or shut up.

That all depends on what you consider to be "better" -- for instance, if you want low crime, Japan is better. If you want universal healthcare, Sweden is better.

I've been all over the world, and I don't like getting into the debate about what society is better than any other. There are different but still fundementally valid ways to live.

[Spliffdaddy]

sorry to drag your thread off-topic. I'll attempt to steer it back.

If people worldwide all desire similar things in life - what are those things? and, more importantly, how can what Americans desire be so misunderstood by the rest of the world? Are we not all the same?

[BRussell]

Some other interesting findings from that poll:

[nvaughan3]

Given that Indonesia, Jordan, Morocco, Pakistan and the Palestinian Authority are prone to chosing Osama bin Laden as a political leader they trust to "do the right thing", they are digging their own political grave.

Did the not article refer to muslim clerics, not the government in totality?

[moki]

Here's the link to the full report, complete with charts and graphs:

http://people-press.org/reports/disp...3?ReportID=185

I must say, few of the charts surprised me, except for this one:



I'm really quite surprised that the South Koreans were wishing that the Iraqis put up more of a fight in the numbers they did.

I'd like to see the demographics of that survey in South Korea -- it is quite likely that the younger generations (the ones who didn't live through the Korean War) are the ones who were rooting for more resistance from the Iraqis.

Ah, how short their memories are. There is a growing sentiment in South Korea that the US should leave, and is causing more problems with DPRK than being the force that was saving their country. The latter was a popular view not many years ago.

I support the idea of pulling out our troops from South Korea, if that's what the Korean people want. I think it is short-sighted, and could lead to disaster, but if we're not wanted there, it's time for us to leave.

[Spliffdaddy]

Only 29 percent of Americans now say they have a very favorable or somewhat favorable view of France, down from 79 percent in February 2002. And just 44 percent of Americans take a favorable view of Germany now - a dramatic plunge from 83 percent in February 2002.


WOW!

only 29% of Americans have a favorable opinion of France.

"down from 79% in Feb 2002."


That's a huge drop.

[Oswald Defense Lawyer]

WOW!

only 29% of Americans have a favorable opinion of France.

"down from 79% in Feb 2002."


That's a huge drop.

It's a terrible indictment of how easily manipulated Americans are.

[BRussell]

I found it interesting that the same populations who like bin Laden also like Chirac.

Who's the best? "bin Laden!"
Who's second best? "Chirac!"

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by Oswald Defense Lawyer:
It's a terrible indictment of how easily manipulated Americans are.

Yeah, Americans were duped into thinking France was an ally. Fortunately, we know better now.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by BRussell:
I found it interesting that the same populations who like bin Laden also like Chirac.

How is that interesting, if I may ask - I am sure you meant to get a point across, not just a rhetoric.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by BRussell:
Some other interesting findings from that poll:

Pretty much sums it up. Great post.

[boots]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Yeah, well...that's hardly news.

I believe the rest of the world has a unflattering opinion of the US. There is no doubt about that. But, even still, I don't believe the US is a 'threat' to anybody. I think we are misunderstood. You know how you feel compelled to share fun things with other people? Things that make you happy are fun to share. Well, we feel compelled to share 'the American Dream' with the rest of the world.

It's something we love so much that nobody can take it from us - nobody can threaten it. It's one of the only things worth dying for.

Something must be wrong with you if you don't want the American Dream. You must not understand it.

You have something better? let's see it work. Prove it to us by creating a better society than America has - or shut up.

Spliffdaddy, I think you are on a good thought here. The problem, I see, is that we don't present ourselves very well. The things we think are great about the USA, IMHO, are fundamentally great. Freedom of expression, due process, etc. are truly phenomenal things. Unfortunately, we tend to forget that we have a certain cultural understanding of what that means. We understand it from our own history...not the history of, say, the Iranian, Suadi, or even Egyptian populations. I say it is unfortunate, because it causes a lot of misunderstandings when you try to superimpose our views onto another culture. It would go a long way to actually make the attempt to understand how these great things could be incorporated without stripping the are of its unique culture. If we just impose it, we come across as arrogant. That is not to say I think we really are, but it certainly presents the attitude to those who may not understand our cultural understanding of these things. It's a mis-communication on both sides, and it will continue until both sides make a concerted effort to change it.

I hope that wasn't too confusing. I guess my main point was that we assume that our context is universal when it is not. That causes problems, even if the fundamental ideas are truly great.

[davesimondotcom]

Let's keep in mind that in at least a few of those nations, kids are taught from day one that the US is the root of all evil.

The reason? To deflect blame for the conditions in their home from those who wish to remain in power.

It doesn't matter how much aid the US has given, or what the reality might be, if you were taught that 1+1 = 3, you'd believe it. At least for a while.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Oswald Defense Lawyer:
It's a terrible indictment of how easily manipulated Americans are.

Who is being manipulated?

If I see someone doing something I perceive is wrong, and I come to the conclusion I don't trust said person. How am I being manipulated? I'm not.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Who is being manipulated?

If I see someone doing something I perceive is wrong, and I come to the conclusion I don't trust said person. How am I being manipulated? I'm not.

Why do you think ODL meant *you* were being manipulated? Wouldn't he have wrote "Zimphire is being manipulated" if he was talking about you?

[boots]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Why do you think ODL meant *you* were being manipulated? Wouldn't he have wrote "Zimphire is being manipulated" if he was talking about you?

Well, I will say that the comment seems to be directed as Americans in general, so that includes Zimpy. It also includes me, but I chose to ignore it as flame-bait. Zimpy still seems to take the bait all the time, though.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Why do you think ODL meant *you* were being manipulated? Wouldn't he have wrote "Zimphire is being manipulated" if he was talking about you?

Well lets see here. He said

Originally posted by Oswald Defense Lawyer:
It's a terrible indictment of how easily manipulated Americans are.

And the last time I checked, I was a American.

I was showing that, just because more people distrust the French, it doesn't mean they was "duped" or manipulated into it. That is just silly.

[boots]

Originally posted by davesimondotcom:
Let's keep in mind that in at least a few of those nations, kids are taught from day one that the US is the root of all evil.

The reason? To deflect blame for the conditions in their home from those who wish to remain in power.

It doesn't matter how much aid the US has given, or what the reality might be, if you were taught that 1+1 = 3, you'd believe it. At least for a while.

Yes, this is also a valid part of the problem. But again, I think a concerted effort by all parties is necessary to over-come this. It would appear as though this problem is starting to be recognized as such by the governments of some of these countries, and they are trying to figure out how to deal with it.

It certainly complicates things more than they need to be, though. I would also add, however, that there are a lot of people in THIS country (USA) that teach their kids that Islam is wrong and they are all terrorists.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by boots:
Well, I will say that the comment seems to be directed as Americans in general, so that includes Zimpy. It also includes me, but I chose to ignore it as flame-bait. Zimpy still seems to take the bait all the time, though.

I am not so sure it was taking bait so much as it was admiring the silliness.

[boots]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I am not so sure it was taking bait so much as it was admiring the silliness.

I like that answer better.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by voodoo:
How is that interesting, if I may ask - I am sure you meant to get a point across, not just a rhetoric.

I'm not quite sure what it means. Maybe that there are lots of people who like anyone they perceive as opposing the US?

Does it trouble you that the same people who like bin Laden also like a prominent European leader?

[voodoo]

Originally posted by BRussell:
I'm not quite sure what it means. Maybe that there are lots of people who like anyone they perceive as opposing the US?

Does it trouble you that the same people who like bin Laden also like a prominent European leader?

Opposing... I'd replace that with "stands up against". Chirac doesn't oppose the US as such. That is a rather dramatic statement.

It does not trouble me the least that the same people who like bin Laden also like a prominent European leader. I find it mildly surprising, but not troubling at all. That may actually represent a glimmer of hope that westernn civilization will eventually gain a foothold in the Middle East.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by davesimondotcom:
Let's keep in mind that in at least a few of those nations, kids are taught from day one that the US is the root of all evil.

The reason? To deflect blame for the conditions in their home from those who wish to remain in power.

It doesn't matter how much aid the US has given, or what the reality might be, if you were taught that 1+1 = 3, you'd believe it. At least for a while.

Yes, but we also need to factor in that there are real reasons why kids are taught that.

We (meaning the west, which includes Britian and other countries as well as the US) have a history of trying to reshape certain other countries into a more palatable simulcrum of ourselves, often with a certain amount of bloodshed.

All conflicts are a two-way street, but we need to acknowledge kids are not being told this in a vacuum where we've done absolutely nothing to engender mistrust. We have.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Opposing... I'd replace that with "stands up against". Chirac doesn't oppose the US as such. That is a rather dramatic statement.

I know English isn't your first language, but "opposes" means "stands up against."

It does not trouble me the least that the same people who like bin Laden also like a prominent European leader. I find it mildly surprising, but not troubling at all. That may actually represent a glimmer of hope that westernn civilization will eventually gain a foothold in the Middle East.

I guess it depends on what you have to do to get that foothold. I would think you wouldn't want the support of people as radical as those who think bin Laden is a good guy. It might be a sign that you're doing something wrong.

[malvolio]

Originally posted by BRussell:
I know English isn't your first language, but "opposes" means "stands up against."

You obviously missed Voodoo's point. He said that "Chirac doesn't oppose the US as such." Chirac is "standing up against" a course of action, not "opposing" an entire nation.