[Logic]

Source, quoting Bush: 'We have a problem with Sharon'

I feel strange, this is probably the first and hopefully the last thread I start that is about Bush in a positive way. Now I must go back to my cave and dig up something to bicker about.........

Oh, and discuss

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by Logic:

I feel strange, this is probably the first and hopefully the last thread I start that is about Bush in a positive way. Now I must go back to my cave and dig up something to bicker about.........

I will steal that sentence as my own.

[boots]

Originally posted by Logic:
Source, quoting Bush: 'We have a problem with Sharon'

I feel strange, this is probably the first and hopefully the last thread I start that is about Bush in a positive way. Now I must go back to my cave and dig up something to bicker about.........

Oh, and discuss

Link is bad. Gave me a 404 page.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by boots:
Link is bad. Gave me a 404 page.

Works for me..

Source, quoting Bush: 'We have a problem with Sharon'


By Akiva Eldar, Haaretz Correspondent







Behind-the-scenes exchanges between President
George Bush and Prime Minister Ariel Sharon at
last week's Aqaba summit may hint at a certain
shift in the American stance, from the Israeli to
the Palestinian side, according to a participant
in the three-way meeting of the delegations.



The source quoted Bush as
telling his National Security
Adviser Condoleezza Rice that
"I see that we have a problem
with Sharon," while saying of
the Palestinians led by Prime
Minister Mahmoud Abbas, "We
can work with them."

At one point, an irked Bush


reportedly rebuked Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz,
telling him "Oh, but I think that you can [help
the Palestinians]. And I think that you will."


At the advance request of Israel at the summit,
Bush's aides had put security problems at the top
of the agenda for discussion. "The first thing
that Bush was required to talk about was
security," the participant said, adding, "It was
a request of the Israelis. So [Bush] asked Dahlan
to give a briefing."

According to the source, Dahlan gave an excellent
five-minute synopsis of the situation, and
concluded by saying to Bush: "There are some
things we can do and some things we cannot. We
will do our best. But we will need help."

Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz burst in at the end
of Dahlan's presentation and said: "Well, they
won't be getting any help from us; they have
their own security service."

You could see that Bush was irritated, the
participant said, and Bush turned on Mofaz
angrily: "Their own security service? But you
have destroyed their security service."

Mofaz shook his head and said: "I do not think
that we can help them, Mr. President," - to which
Bush said: "Oh, but I think that you can. And I
think that you will."

Then Bush turned to Abbas - again according to a
script insisted on by the Israelis - and said:
"Mr. Prime Minister, perhaps you could give an
overview of the situation in the West Bank and
Gaza."

Abbas outlined the increasingly dire situation of
the territories, saying that the humanitarian
crisis was deepening, and that while recent
actions of the finance minister had eased the
problems, the insertion of new funding was
necessary.

Sharon then interrupted and said: "The insertion
of new funding must be dependent on your good
behavior." Bush was again visibly irritated:
"You should release their money as soon as
possible. This will help the situation."

Sharon shook his head: "We have to deal with
security first, and we will condition the release
of their monies on this alone." Bush peered at
Sharon: "But it is their money ..." Sharon
said: "Nevertheless, Mr. President ..." and Bush
interrupted him: "It is their money, give it to
them."

After that meeting, Bush turned to National
Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice and said, "We
have a problem with Sharon I can see, but I like
that young man [Dahlan] and I think their prime
minister is incapable of lying. I hope that they
will be successful. We can work with them."

Bush was also pleased with the determination with
which Abbas rebuffed pressure from his ministers,
Nabil Sha'ath and Yasser Abed Rabbo, to toughen
the language of the Abbas speech, which he had
agreed upon with the American delegation before
the summit. They said it would cause trouble in
the Palestinian Authority. They argued heatedly
with Abbas about his comments, at one point in
front of the president. But Abbas insisted that
his remarks follow the outlines set out by Bush.


Bush watched the interplay and was pleased that
Abbas agreed to the American president's
suggestions on the draft remarks: "If you will
just do this, I pledge to you we will get where
your colleagues want you to go. But we are going
to take one step at a time."

[Logic]

Nothing to see here. Move along............

[voodoo]

Thank you Logic, that was a most informative post. ... <are u sniffing something at work?>

[Logic]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Thank you Logic, that was a most informative post. ... <are u sniffing something at work?>

Oops I'll edit that post.

Damn fumes.........

[vmarks]

Originally posted by boots:
Link is bad. Gave me a 404 page.

He linked to haaretz.com.

He needed to link to haaretzdaily.com

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/302079.html

is the correct url.

[moki]

Originally posted by Logic:
Source, quoting Bush: 'We have a problem with Sharon'

I feel strange, this is probably the first and hopefully the last thread I start that is about Bush in a positive way.

why be so partisan? I don't get it...

[Hugi]

Originally posted by Logic:
Oops I'll edit that post.

Damn fumes.........

Logic: You keep talking about sniffing fumes at work. Where do you work, and can you get me some fumes as well? I am in desperate need of a little vacation from reality

[moki]

The US can put enough pressure on Israel to FORCE them into a settlement. The Palestinians can be lured into it if they'll be much better off afterwards, which is virtually a given (look at how their GDP plummeted when they began the infatada).

Stick for Israel, carrot for the Palestinians. It'll happen, if we stay the course. The only real problem is dealing with the people who don't benefit from a settlement, ie, terrorist organizations such as Hamas, and also the countries in the arab world who have used the Palestinians as a way to scapegoat the US and Israel.

[thunderous_funker]

Wow, if that depiction is accurrate, I can't say how happy I am with Bush.

According to the source, Dahlan gave an excellent
five-minute synopsis of the situation, and
concluded by saying to Bush: "There are some
things we can do and some things we cannot. We
will do our best. But we will need help."

Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz burst in at the end
of Dahlan's presentation and said: "Well, they
won't be getting any help from us; they have
their own security service."

You could see that Bush was irritated, the
participant said, and Bush turned on Mofaz
angrily: "Their own security service? But you
have destroyed their security service."

Mofaz shook his head and said: "I do not think
that we can help them, Mr. President," - to which
Bush said: "Oh, but I think that you can. And I
think that you will."

Who the hell did Bush's briefing for this meeting? I wanna shake their hand for finally getting a president to see the light!!

Can you imagine Clinton, Gore or Lieberman taking that position? When pigs fly.

Thanks for posting this. It really feels good to know Bush has his facts straight and is taking the correct approach to this renewed effort in the middle east. I can't say I'm optomistic, but at least the US position is one we can feel good about.

[Hugi]

Mofaz shook his head and said: "I do not think
that we can help them, Mr. President," - to which
Bush said: "Oh, but I think that you can. And I
think that you will."

Wow. Gaining respect for Bush is a really, really strange feeling.

[Logic]

Originally posted by hugi:


Wow. Gaining respect for Bush is a really, really strange feeling.

Indeed

Perhaps we should go check if hell has frozen over.........

As I said, I'm not sure how true this is but if this is the case Bush just got a big golden star in his book. This is something I really didn't see coming from any politician in the world. <ali g> Respect Mr. Bush </ali g>

[Logic]

He's on a roll:

In a rare rebuke of Israel's actions, the White House said President Bush was "concerned the [missile] strike will undermine efforts by Palestinian authorities and others to bring an end to terrorist attacks.

"It does not contribute to the security of Israel," a spokesman added.

This get's stranger by the day........

[voodoo]

Go Bush go!!! Yayayayayayay!

(shame on you for the Iraq thing though.. shame shame)

[maxelson]

Sweet fancy moses. If it's true...
On this- BUSH HAS MY SUPPORT. And admiration... on this topic.
I'ma like dis.

[shmerek]

Wow I am ashamed to say I am impressed as well, maybe his "with us or against us" mentality might pay off on this one.

side-note:
Here is a link to a story about settlers trying to stop the dismantling of the outposts. I am curious as to how one justifies the settlements and how could an Israeli say they are for peace if they support the illegal settlements?

[yakkiebah]

so finally someone who has the balls... but... bush?

unbelievable.

so, hell yeah! he gets my support

[lil'babykitten]

Bush: 'We have a problem with Sharon'

Bush: 'In a rare rebuke of Israel's actions, the White House said President Bush was "concerned the [missile] strike will undermine efforts by Palestinian authorities and others to bring an end to terrorist attacks.

"It does not contribute to the security of Israel," a spokesman added'

lil'babykitten: WTF?!! Two in one day? Unbelievable.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by shmerek:
Wow I am ashamed to say I am impressed as well, maybe his "with us or against us" mentality might pay off on this one.

side-note:
Here is a link to a story about settlers trying to stop the dismantling of the outposts. I am curious as to how one justifies the settlements and how could an Israeli say they are for peace if they support the illegal settlements?

What's silly to me is taht there are many in the Israeli government... obviously determined to undermine this roadmap.

To date all they have promised is to remove the *abandoned* outposts....

That's a pretty damn good deal on the road to peace. Giving up a few acres of land... *that you don't even use*.... and put the ball in the other court... leaving them to make the next move towards peace.

Whomever made the call... F***ed up big time.

[OreoCookie]

Maybe the US will change politics again: they have forced Arafat out of the picture and supported a replacement for him, maybe they will try the same with Sharon as he is the second obstacle of peace.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
Maybe the US will change politics again: they have forced Arafat out of the picture and supported a replacement for him, maybe they will try the same with Sharon as he is the second obstacle of peace.

They need to get rid of BOTH Sharon Arafat IMHO.

[vmarks]

Sharon was elected democratically, of course.

When the vote was held, all Israelis eligible to vote, Christian Arab, Druze Arab, Bedouin Arab, Ethiopian Israeli, Russian Israeli, Philipino Israeli, Vietnamese Israeli, Argentinian Israeli, and others all participated in the vote (tho not necessarily all voting for him, you understand.)

Are you suggesting that the citizens eligible to vote cannot be trusted to choose their own leader?

Sounds like an authoritarian-nanny-state-type of suggestion.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by vmarks:

Are you suggesting that the citizens eligible to vote cannot be trusted to choose their own leader?

Only if they are Afghani or Iraqi.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
They need to get rid of BOTH Sharon Arafat IMHO.

Since when did that matter for the US?

Edit: deleted the cynical tags.

[moki]

Originally posted by yakkiebah:
so finally someone who has the balls... but... bush?

unbelievable.

so, hell yeah! he gets my support

I posted this very same news article on our "Just Chat" web board, and I was rather surprised -- the responses were quite critical of this policy.

I guess there are a lot of people who oppose the stance Bush is taking, which amazed me, because I found it very encouraging.

[yakkiebah]

Originally posted by moki:
I posted this very same news article on our "Just Chat" web board, and I was rather surprised -- the responses were quite critical of this policy.

I guess there are a lot of people who oppose the stance Bush is taking, which amazed me, because I found it very encouraging.

well it seems that both the people who support and don't support bush are suprised.

anti-bush crowds are in favor now and the pro-bosh crowds are against. there are of course exceptions but in general i think this is true. atleast that is what i noticed.

in the news overhere we have been seeing unhappy bush voters(especially the GOP people) and jewish fundamentalists who are very unhappy with the new peace process. both groups seem to be teaming up against bush now.

[Logic]

The respect and love is unbelievable

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon was quoted as telling cabinet
ministers that Palestinian leaders were "crybabies," Army
Radio reported, and that Palestinian Authority Prime
Minister Abu Mazen was "like a chick who hasn't grown his
feathers (yet)." Israel would continue to act against terror,
he said, until he had.

Taken from this. I agree with W, we have a problem with Sharon.

[eklipse]

'We have a problem with Sharon'

Understatement of the year?


Bush identifying Sharon as a problem is all well and good but is he actually going to do something about it?

[vmarks]

Funnily enough, so many of you were all saying, "we have a problem with Bush" just a few short weeks ago.

It must be easy to be so wishy-washy.

Mr. Sharon has done exactly what he said he would do. He waited for weeks for Hamas to come to terms with Mr. Mazen. Hamas walked away, saying they would continue attacks.

Hamas considers every Israeli to be a "criminal Zionist" and therefore a target. Hamas' so-called education programs are for educating that Israel must be pushed into the sea. Don't paint such a glorious picture of them without mentioning that it's really just a means of them teaching the youth more violence.

American policy has always been "We do not negotiate with terrorists" - why is Mr. Bush going forth with a double-standard that for all history of the conflict has proved to be unsuccessful?

[christ]

Originally posted by vmarks:
American policy has always been "We do not negotiate with terrorists" ...

Not quite.

Up until recently American policy was "We do not negotiate with terrorists unless they are running their country, and by the way, we reserve the right to define the word 'terrorist'".

Lately Dubya has removed the 'unless they are running their country' bit, and by judicious definition of terrorist, ruined/improved a couple of countries. It may be that this same zeal may be what is driving him to see Sharon in a new light.

PS I didn't trust his view of Afghanistan or Iraq, and neither do I trust his view of Israel.

[Troll]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Hamas considers every Israeli to be a "criminal Zionist" and therefore a target. Hamas' so-called education programs are for educating that Israel must be pushed into the sea. Don't paint such a glorious picture of them without mentioning that it's really just a means of them teaching the youth more violence.

Palestinian youths don't need Hamas to teach them about voilence. Israel does a pretty good job of doing that all on its own. What better lessons than blowing up cars in public areas, shooting at Palestinian children while they're playing in trenches, demolishing the homes of Palestinian families ...

[yakkiebah]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Funnily enough, so many of you were all saying, "we have a problem with Bush" just a few short weeks ago.

no, you, or i'm not sure if it was you but alot of the pro-bush people here have been saying that no matter what bush does we would be against it because we're anti-bush. clearly that isn't the case.

yes the hamas is a problem for arafat en co but sharon has the same kind of problems. alot of conservative jews didn't like what sharon has said last week about the settlements by calling them, rightfully, an occupation, not once but a few times more to make it clear. so hopefully sharon really does what he has said.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Funnily enough, so many of you were all saying, "we have a problem with Bush" just a few short weeks ago.

It must be easy to be so wishy-washy.

Mr. Sharon has done exactly what he said he would do. He waited for weeks for Hamas to come to terms with Mr. Mazen. Hamas walked away, saying they would continue attacks.

Hamas considers every Israeli to be a "criminal Zionist" and therefore a target. Hamas' so-called education programs are for educating that Israel must be pushed into the sea. Don't paint such a glorious picture of them without mentioning that it's really just a means of them teaching the youth more violence.

American policy has always been "We do not negotiate with terrorists" - why is Mr. Bush going forth with a double-standard that for all history of the conflict has proved to be unsuccessful?

I still do have a problem with Bush, because I disagree with most of his politics. After his election, Bush kept out of the Middle East confict until recently. And he did the only thing that is right in this situation: force (!) both parties to a dialog.

So I agree with Bush on this. I have no problem to admit it. It is not wishy-washy, I am a supporter of a non-violent solution before it was apparent that Bush will get actively involved. I did not twist and turn, and I wouldn't vote for him if I could.

Anyway, I get back on topic. I don't think that we have a blurred view on Hamas. But I think the only way to actively fight radical Muslims and Jews is to build up support from the majority of the population. When Hamas and those illegal settlers are driven away by peers, then we will have a successful start. If -- on the other hand -- Israel (preemptively) strikes back in densely populated areas, knocking down houses just for revenge, there will never be peace. That way, the support for Hamas et al will only grow, similarly in Israel.

The boy that blew himself up in the bus was only 18 years old. On the other side, young Israeli soldiers are spending the best time of their life in the army.
These are kids!

[yakkiebah]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
I still do have a problem with Bush, because I disagree with most of his politics. After his election, Bush kept out of the Middle East confict until recently. And he did the only thing that is right in this situation: force (!) both parties to a dialog.

So I agree with Bush on this. I have no problem to admit it. It is not wishy-washy, I am a supporter of a non-violent solution before it was apparent that Bush will get actively involved. I did not twist and turn, and I wouldn't vote for him if I could.

Anyway, I get back on topic. I don't think that we have a blurred view on Hamas. But I think the only way to actively fight radical Muslims and Jews is to build up support from the majority of the population. When Hamas and those illegal settlers are driven away by peers, then we will have a successful start. If -- on the other hand -- Israel (preemptively) strikes back in densely populated areas, knocking down houses just for revenge, there will never be peace. That way, the support for Hamas et al will only grow, similarly in Israel.

The boy that blew himself up in the bus was only 18 years old. On the other side, young Israeli soldiers are spending the best time of their life in the army.
These are kids!

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
They need to get rid of BOTH Sharon Arafat IMHO.

Who's Sharon Arafat? Is Yassar's wife getting in on it now?