[Nonsuch]

Read an interesting Salon article last week about the rise of self-checkout stations at retail stores. It speculated about dire consequences that have, so far at least, proven to be premature: stores with self-checkout by and large do not fire redundant checkout workers, moving them instead to other service areas.

Nevertheless, it seems naive to think that, over the next decade or so, automation isn't going to significantly reshape the retail world, and that not a few jobs wouldn't be lost in the process. We've already seen it happen in manufacturing. So what do we do about it? The article quoted several people, including Robert Reich:

Both Democrats and Republicans are trying to appeal to voters in manufacturing states by showing that they're at least trying to create new factory jobs. On Monday, Don Evans, the secretary of commerce, announced that he was creating an unfair trade practices team to monitor trade violations on the part of U.S. partners (the administration's biggest suspect is China) and a new secretarial post to look into ways to promote domestic manufacturing.

"It's bullshit," says Reich. "Trying to protect certain manufacturing businesses by putting up tariffs and subsidies postpones the day of reckoning. Technological change and globalization are hugely powerful forces. We don't want to go back to the days of the Luddites and destroy the machines. You have to remember that it's not as if there's a finite number of jobs in the world economy to be divided up between us and them."

The answer to the threats posed by automation and globalization, argues Reich, is not to try to be defensive, to put up protectionist walls and lavish subsidies on threatened industries, but to be aggressive, and help people find new jobs. But right now, government support for training programs of the kind necessary is minimal.

"Of course, some people get slammed; some people are getting slammed in this jobs recession which continues on," says Reich. "If you're a 55-year-old assembly line welder and you lose your job because there's a computerized system for doing that welding or because it can be done in Southeast Asia, we don't have a pathway for you, we don't have enough insurance, our training programs are few and far between and underfunded. We don't have an easy route for you to find out what you need to learn. We don't have any of those adjustment mechanisms, and those are critical in an economy that is changing as rapidly as ours. It's cruel and unusual not to help people get the skills they need, the information they need, to get a new job."

I imagine most conservatives would argue that training is up to the individual, and if someone is too lazy or unmotivated to get it, that's his lookout. But on the other hand, wouldn't a proactive effort to make redundant workers productive tangibly benefit the economy and society as a whole? (Since god knows the schools alone aren't doing it.) And if people are already willing to learn new skills, why not help them out?

Anyhoo, what do you all think?

[AutoJC]

Self-checks are a good idea.

Automation helps increase profits.

Witness the infusion of CAD in my architectural practice. I've tripled my productivity. Also credit Apple with providing a major part of the technology to enable me to do that.

It's all about helping private industry and business make money. Without our profits our government will go to hell because who else is going to foot the bill?

It's up to the individual to seek out a career which can enable his happiness and prosperity- not the government.

[finboy]

OK, to be fair, if you check out those jobs that were "shifted" when automation came in, you'll find that some of them were protected by union contracts.

As for re-training, I think it's a legitimate function of government when society experiences "structural" employment shifts. To the extent that it isn't fixed by the market, as it often is, the govt. can step in to provide training. It works, mainly because the barriers to entry (startup costs) are to big for lots of different private employers to organize such training effectively. Business is getting much better about it though.

[Millennium]

Society and State should be held just as separate as Church and State or Business and State, if you ask me. Governmental regulation of society is the first step towards -and oddly enough, often the first justification of- any assault on the freedoms and independence which make our lives worth living.

Retraining opportunities not only exist, but abound. It doesn't even take much more than common sense to find them. If the government is going to get into the business of retraining, it shouldn't extend any further than a tuition reimbursement program, and even that is going to need to be watched very carefully to ensure that it is not abused.

[macvillage.net]

Technology doens't really steal jobs. It relocates them.

For the technology to exist there are thousands of jobs created. Designing, implmenting, building, purchasing, researching, teaching how to use, mantaining... the list goes on.

it's not like you need a degree to do most of those. There are many vocational schools (only need a GED to get in). that can give you the skills in a matter of months... in most cases they will find you a job once you complete it. Often if you have a job, your employer will pay for it, as it's a cheap way to get a skilled employee.


The options are out there. Why are people not happy?

Because everyone wants easy money. That job where you do nothing, and get paid big. Hundreds of thousands of dollars to pulla George Jetson job (push the button 5 times in one day).

Reality is that it doesn't exist. Some people realize that when they are little kids looking up at their parents...

some go their entire lives without realizing that.

There is actually a labor shortage in the US, yet unemployment has been up quite a bit... why? Because people don't want the jobs available... they feel they can do better... so they sit idle.

People who succeed normally do so because they made an effort, not looked for the easy way out.

The government could hold their hand the entire way... they would still end up the same way they are now.

There is a giant shortage in the healthcare industry. From doctors, nurses, to medical technicians, even hospital janitors are a rare commodity. Not to mention research for improved methods of handling all these people. And that industry is only becoming more desperate. Those are hundreds of thousands of low skilled jobs. As well as skilled. For every doctor there is a staff. For every 100 patents, there is a need for staffing.


Problem is nobody likes efficiency... everyone likes their lazy lifestyle.

Problem is everyone wants best car for the lowest price. The cheapest mansion, affordable healthcare, low cost drugs, cheap supercomputers... lower taxes.

Everyone loves efficiency... except when they are asked to contribute to society.

Society has evolved quite a bit. A little more than 100 years ago, the average American was a farmer. Then working in an industrial complex... now it's the information age... the average american handles information for a living.

The side effect, is that people need to understand that jobs don't come about to please the workforce... the workforce comes about to please the job market.

The reason many companies outsource overseas now is because it's cheap skilled labor.

Many here with a GED in America demands 100k/year. Overseas it's far less. And these inviduals end up with nothing.

What Americans really need is to see what their education/skills are worth on a GLOBAL scale.

An American HS Diploma doesn't go as far as it did even 50 years ago.... not nearly as far.

There are many alternatives to HS. I know people who went into the military, then college, who have done amazingly well for themselves... and the military paid for their education.

I know people who went to vocational schools... did amazing as well. Good money, good education.

I know people who went into the workforce, worked hard, and got their employer to pay for their education. Also did very well. Didn't cost them a penny. Made money, and went to school on company dollars to learn how to make more money.

Problem is to many people think a HS diploma means your a genious... and all else is extra.

While many other parts of the world struggled to get ahead. And they have cought some americans with their pants down.

It's sad, but it could change. I think if Americans had a nice chart showing what their education is worth, in a global scale, people would make better decisions on jobs, and their education.

Some very talented people hope to become CEO's in a month... rather than take that position lower down, and work their way up.

It's sad... but the government couldn't fix that if they tried.

Peopl ehave to realize, and put their priorities in order.

[finboy]

Originally posted by Millennium:

If the government is going to get into the business of retraining, it shouldn't extend any further than a tuition reimbursement program, and even that is going to need to be watched very carefully to ensure that it is not abused.

To be sure. The main reason to promote this kind of thing, from what I've seen, is because otherwise you have mass exodus. Selfishly, I want all the Northern states to prevent mass exodus as soon as possible, because the Interstates don't have gates, as we're fond of saying down South.

So maybe I'm biased. Plus, we had massive textile closings in NC and SC and VA during the 80s and 90s, and the folks who took retraining time (via reimbursements and unemployment compensation extensions) were by and large people who took it and ran with it and used it to pick themselves up. Those programs were successful and those folks are now working better jobs, hiring all the Yankees that flood down here looking for cheap prices and unskilled jobs.

Other than my selfish reasons for preventing huge population shifts of Yankees, I'd agree with "no govt. support" in most cases. After all, the govt. ain't paying MY student loans.