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eklipse · Sep 24, 2003, 05:10 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3137392.stm

A group of Israeli air force pilots are refusing to carry out strikes against targets in the Palestinian territories.

The declaration by 27 pilots, some of whom regularly carry out combat missions, has been condemned by Israeli military leaders.

......

Hundreds of Israeli reserve soldiers have chosen prison over military service in the Palestinian territories during the last three years of Israeli-Palestinian violence.

I wonder what the Israel-needs-to-exterminate-it's-enemies-just-give-them-enough-time-and-ammo-to-get-the-job-done crowd will have to say about this.

lil'babykitten · Sep 24, 2003, 05:20 PM

Nice to hear those guys actually have hearts.

macvillage.net · Sep 24, 2003, 05:22 PM

Thumbs up to them as well.

For not contributing to the problem.

I found this kind of ironic:

"We are a humanitarian and moral force and army of the highest order."

If that's "the highest order"... damn, human kind is f***ked.

That's like calling Timothy McVeigh and his militia pals All American Hero's.

Logic · Sep 24, 2003, 05:24 PM

: hands out pop corn and Mecca Cola and waits :

Face Ache · Sep 24, 2003, 07:53 PM

AutoJC, Zim: Wanna learn how to fly a plane and kill people?

Zimphire · Sep 24, 2003, 09:06 PM

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Nice to hear those guys actually have hearts.

Now we have to work on the Palestinian people that kill women and children without flinching.

Zimphire · Sep 24, 2003, 09:07 PM

Originally posted by Face Ache:
AutoJC, Zim: Wanna learn how to fly a plane and kill people?

Why would I want to?

Or was this just another lame personal attack?

macvillage.net · Sep 24, 2003, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by Face Ache:
AutoJC, Zim: Wanna learn how to fly a plane and kill people?

They would only take classes if Muslem countries started building taller buildings, and putting daycare center's on the top floors.

Sad.

Spliffdaddy · Sep 24, 2003, 10:25 PM

wow.

you peaceniks have no character nor integrity, huh?

Zimphire · Sep 24, 2003, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
They would only take classes if Muslem countries started building taller buildings, and putting daycare center's on the top floors.

Sad.

I think you got it mixed up. It's the Palestinians that are the baby killers.

The actually seek out women and children as targets.

lurkalot · Sep 25, 2003, 12:10 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Now we have to work on the Palestinian people that kill women and children without flinching.

Unfortunately 27 is not all the pilots. But I agree. Palestinian terrorists need to stop killing innocents. Men, women and children.

nonhuman · Sep 25, 2003, 12:21 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I think you got it mixed up. It's the Palestinians that are the baby killers.

The actually seek out women and children as targets.

So why is it that the Israeli pilots are refusing to follow orders to do just that? (Not saying that the Palestinians don't. Just (as usual) saying that the Palestinians aren't the only one's doing horrible things.)

Zimphire · Sep 25, 2003, 12:26 AM

Well I read the article again in case I missed it, I don't recall reading about them refusing to take out strikes on specifically women and children.

In other words, they aren't commanded to attack innocent civilians. Their take out of terrorists however sometimes takes the innocents too.

The terrorists on the other hand make it a POINT to take out women and children.

nonhuman · Sep 25, 2003, 01:17 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Well I read the article again in case I missed it, I don't recall reading about them refusing to take out strikes on specifically women and children.

In other words, they aren't commanded to attack innocent civilians. Their take out of terrorists however sometimes takes the innocents too.

The terrorists on the other hand make it a POINT to take out women and children.

I don't see how the order "kill this group of people in a manner that will almost definitely result in the death of women and children" is any better than the order "kill these women and children".

villalobos · Sep 25, 2003, 06:44 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Well I read the article again in case I missed it, I don't recall reading about them refusing to take out strikes on specifically women and children.

In other words, they aren't commanded to attack innocent civilians. Their take out of terrorists however sometimes takes the innocents too.

The terrorists on the other hand make it a POINT to take out women and children.

Might it be because it is much more difficult to actually harm very well protected soldiers in armored tanks than it is to harm innocent civilians without protection. The israelian army has fighter jets and missiles which allows it to choose whatever targets it feels fit, not a bunch of nutcases with bombs strapped around themselves. If they were trying to hit the israelian army, they would probably not be very successful. It is just a point of efficiency.
But of course, seeing that would require some thinking.

villa

Zimphire · Sep 25, 2003, 08:12 AM

Originally posted by nonhuman:
I don't see how the order "kill this group of people in a manner that will almost definitely result in the death of women and children" is any better than the order "kill these women and children".

Heh they are not sure if it will kill innocent civilians. It is a chance. ]

On the other hand the terrorists are OUT to do JUST that.

If you can't see the difference, I am betting it's because you don't want to.

Zimphire · Sep 25, 2003, 08:13 AM

Originally posted by villalobos:
Might it be because it is much more difficult to actually harm very well protected soldiers in armored tanks than it is to harm innocent civilians without protection. The israelian army has fighter jets and missiles which allows it to choose whatever targets it feels fit, not a bunch of nutcases with bombs strapped around themselves. If they were trying to hit the israelian army, they would probably not be very successful. It is just a point of efficiency.
But of course, seeing that would require some thinking.

villa

That is a nice excuse for someone purposely killing women and children.

Spheric Harlot · Sep 25, 2003, 08:27 AM

Why hasn't anybody come out with the argument that invariably comes up in every other thread on this general subject:

Those pilots are a bunch of anti-Semitic Nazi terrorist sympathisers and Jew-haters!

There, spared y'all the trouble.

-s*

version · Sep 25, 2003, 08:32 AM

Zimphire, you're anaolies are quite pathetic at times. The air pilots are told to destroy apartment blocks knowing full well that the inteligence has told them that families are inside them. The Israeli army calls this' collatoral damage', and neccesary to combat terrorism. So it seems to me that the Palestinians, in getting their point across by using the only means open to them, are doing just as the Israeli army are doing.

Oh, btw, it's not just the pilots tjat are now refusing, for years many IDF soldiers have fought against using armed conlfict against the Palestinians, there's a website up now for IDF soldiers to talk about active refusal. Many of them have left the IDF, and are refusing combat on the grounds that they are opposed to kiling women and children.

How many stories would you like me to recount of evil IDF soldiers takign pleasure in aiming for children, and women when they walk through a pedestrian area, attempting to 'calm a situation'?

Spliffdaddy · Sep 25, 2003, 08:33 AM

At least they don't blow them up.

Zimphire · Sep 25, 2003, 08:34 AM

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Why hasn't anybody come out with the argument that invariably comes up in every other thread on this general subject:

Those pilots are a bunch of anti-Semitic Nazi terrorist sympathisers and Jew-haters!

There, spared y'all the trouble.

-s*

Because this isn't the case here.

Zimphire · Sep 25, 2003, 08:36 AM

Originally posted by version:
Zimphire, you're anaolies are quite pathetic at times. The air pilots are told to destroy apartment blocks knowing full well that the inteligence has told them that families are inside them. The Israeli army calls this' collatoral damage', and neccesary to combat terrorism. So it seems to me that the Palestinians, in getting their point across by using the only means open to them, are doing just as the Israeli army are doing.

version, you still can't admit there is a difference between PURPOSELY targeting women and children and this. I know you know the difference, but you will never admit it.

How many stories would you like me to recount of evil IDF soldiers takign pleasure in aiming for children, and women when they walk through a pedestrian area, attempting to 'calm a situation'?

And they would just be that. stories.

version · Sep 25, 2003, 08:40 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
version, you still can't admit there is a difference between PURPOSELY targeting women and children and this. I know you know the difference, but you will never admit it.

And they would just be that. stories. [/B]

Zim, are you stupid? Israeli soldiers, personally recount how they target women, and children, adn take pleasure. Stories? Nah, these are actual serving IDF soldiers, who talk about their experiences, so before putting down what I say, try reading. I'll giveyou there names, and contact details, plus the peacenik groups who help support them leaving the IDF.

version · Sep 25, 2003, 08:41 AM

Remember what I said before? Most of my family serve in the military, and I have lots of family in ISrael, all of whom serve/served in the IDF. So don't give me your crap, and aplogetic nonsense.

version · Sep 25, 2003, 08:42 AM

Zim, here's just one site about these 'stories' you talk of. All soldiers can be contacted.

http://www.tanbou.com/2002/IsraeliSoldiers.htm

Zimphire · Sep 25, 2003, 08:43 AM

Originally posted by version:
Zim, are you stupid?

First sign you are losing this argument.

Israeli soldiers, personally recount how they target women, and children, adn take pleasure.

Could you point me to some? Oh, and I expect valid links. Ones that don't have a agenda. Ones that can back up their accusations.

Stories? Nah, these are actual serving IDF soldiers, who talk about their experiences, so before putting down what I say, try reading. I'll giveyou there names, and contact details, plus the peacenik groups who help support them leaving the IDF.

Well if this is true, than it's on the individual soldiers. If they aren't getting orders to do so.

Try again.

Zimphire · Sep 25, 2003, 08:43 AM

Originally posted by version:
Remember what I said before? Most of my family serve in the military, and I have lots of family in ISrael, all of whom serve/served in the IDF. So don't give me your crap, and aplogetic nonsense.

I am not apologizing. I am stating facts. You can't come to grips with the fact that there is a difference.

version · Sep 25, 2003, 08:46 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:

First sign you are losing this argument.
[/b]Could you point me to some? Oh, and I expect valid links. Ones that don't have a agenda. Ones that can back up their accusations.

Well if this is true, than it's on the individual soldiers. If they aren't getting orders to do so.

Try again. [/B]

See, I provide just one link to show you that what you called stories was nonsense, and I cna show plenty more. How much of an agenda can they have when these people are ISRAELIS, serving in the IDF? get real.

I proved you wrong, nuff said.

lil'babykitten · Sep 25, 2003, 08:47 AM

version · Sep 25, 2003, 08:48 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I am not apologizing. I am stating facts. You can't come to grips with the fact that there is a difference.

What facts are you showing? you're just spouting claims, with nothign to back it up. I can show you personal testimony of israelie soliders taking joy in killing Palestinian women, and children. All yo udo is deny it, and you call hat fact.

Zimphire · Sep 25, 2003, 08:48 AM

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
snip

Wonder Twins Activiate! Form of.. a ICE troll..

version · Sep 25, 2003, 08:49 AM

Oops, sorry kitten, I was runing away with myself. haha

Zimphire · Sep 25, 2003, 08:49 AM

Originally posted by version:
See, I provide just one link to show you that what you called stories was nonsense, and I cna show plenty more. How much of an agenda can they have when these people are ISRAELIS, serving in the IDF? get real.

LOL! http://www.tanbou.com isn't a good source. You are grabbing for straws now.

I proved you wrong, nuff said.

Sounds like a case of insecurity to me.

lil'babykitten · Sep 25, 2003, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by version:
Oops, sorry kitten, I was runing away with myself. haha

No problem. Just make sure you take my advice.

version · Sep 25, 2003, 09:12 AM

Sorry kitten, had to do this.

Zim, so typical of you, seems like any source tht is contrry to your skewed view is biased, and therefore not worthy of your opinion. here's the names of the israeli soldiers for you. The last link wil lgive you names.

How about I get some Israelis soldiers to talk to you, amd give you their personal, verifiable opinion of what it's like to serve in the IDF?

How many more sites do you wat me to list. Oh, I forgot, it's onyl legitimate in your mind if FOX, or CNN covers this, well, the BBC, adn Channel 4 already did. These sites are Israeli based, run by soldiers, and are from Israelis, get the picture?

http://www.spectacle.org/0302/refuse.html
http://www.comdsd.org/article_archive/refuseniks.htm
http://www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp

version · Sep 25, 2003, 09:15 AM

Here's a little story for you, form the Telegrgaph (well respected paper here), about IDF brutatlity.

Israeli 'refuseniks' must do duty
By Alan Philps
(Filed: 31/12/2002)

The Israeli high court yesterday rejected an appeal by eight soldiers who refuse to serve in the occupied territories.

It ruled that there was no right of "selective conscientious objection" in Israel.

The eight are among about 500 "refuseniks" who have signed a petition saying they will not serve in the West Bank or Gaza Strip, which they say are occupied illegally, although they are ready to do their duty within Israel.

But the court decided that allowing objectors to decide where they served would loosen the bonds that unite the country.

The three judges argued that if Left-wingers could refuse to enforce curfews on Palestinians, Right-wingers could refuse to dismantle Jewish settlements, if this were required under a future peace settlement.

� The Israeli human rights organisation B'Tselem yesterday said four Israeli soldiers entered a barber's shop in Hebron earlier this month and beat up five Palestinian men, shaving the heads of two of them.

Related reports
_

_

Sharon threat to minister in vote-buying scandal

_

External links
_

_

Israeli high court rejects petition of reservists refusing to serve in occupied territories [30 Dec '02] - Alternative Information Centre

_

Israeli Defence Forces

_

version · Sep 25, 2003, 09:19 AM

Pity you can' read hebrew, oh wait, there's an English section.

http://www.seruv.org.il/

Israelis who refuse to kill women, and children.
Links

We, reserve combat officers and soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces,who were raised upon the principles of Zionism, sacrifice and giving to the people of Israel and to the State of Israel, who have always served in the front lines, and who were the first to carry out any mission, light or heavy, in order to protect the State of Israel and strengthen it.

We, combat officers and soldiers who have served the State of Israel for long weeks every year, in spite of the dear cost to our personal lives, have been on reserve duty all over the Occupied Territories, and were issued commands and directives that had nothing to do with the security of our country, and that had the sole purpose of perpetuating our control over the Palestinian people. We, whose eyes have seen the bloody toll this Occupation exacts from both sides.

We, who sensed how the commands issued to us in the Territories, destroy all the values we had absorbed while growing up in this country.

We, who understand now that the price of Occupation is the loss of IDF�s human character and the corruption of the entire Israeli society.

We, who know that the Territories are not Israel, and that all settlements are bound to be evacuated in the end.

We hereby declare that we shall not continue to fight this War of the Settlements.

We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people.

We hereby declare that we shall continue serving in the Israel Defense Forces in any mission that serves Israel�s defense.

The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve this purpose � and we shall take no part in them.

#
Full Name
Rank
Unit
Article
Picture

1
Avner Inbar
Staff Sergeant
Engineering
_
_

2
Ofir Cohen
Staff Sergeant
Infantry
_
_

3
Itzik Hulday
Staff Sergeant
Engineering
_
_

4
Itai Swirski
Lieutenant
Paratroopers
_

5
Amir Engel
Staff Sergeant
Artillery
_
_

6
Amir Samuel
Staff Sergeant
Paratroopers
_
_

7
Amnon Kafri
Sergeant First Class
Artillery
_
_

8
Assaf Oron
Sergeant First Class
Infantry

_

9
Ariel Shatil
Sergeant First Class
Artillery
_

10
Arik Diamant
Staff Sergeant
Paratroopers
_
_

11
Gil Alexandrovitz
Staff Sergeant
Artillery
_
_

12
Guy Grosman
Lieutenant
Paratroopers

_

13
Gyora Alexandron
Staff Sergeant
Paratroopers
_
_

14
Gil Nemesh
Staff Sergeant
Engineering

_

15
David Zonshein
Lieutenant
Paratroopers
_
_

16
Dolev Tokatly
Staff Sergeant
Army Intelligence
_
_

17
Dan Tamir
Captain
Paratroopers

_

18
Danny Vos
Sergeant First Class
Navy
_
_

19
Danny Mamlok
Staff Sergeant
Artillery
_
_

20
Danny Markovitz
Staff Sergeant
Engineering
_
_

21
Haim Wies
Captain
Armored Corps
_
_

22
Tal Ben Amar
Lieutenant
Infantry
_
_

23
Yair Bustan
Lieutenant
Navy
_
_

24
Yigal Broner
Staff Sergeant
Armored Corps

_

25
Yehoda Shalem
Staff Sergeant
Infantry
_
_

26
Yoav Katz
First Sergeant
Armored Corps
_
_

27
Johnathan Katz
Staff Sergeant
Infantry
_
_

28
Yaniv Itzkovitz
Lieutenant
Paratroopers
_
_

29
Ishai Lerman
Staff Sergeant
Engineering
_
_

30
Ishai Rozen Tzvi
Staff Sergeant
Armored Corps
_
_

31
Ishai Sagi
Lieutenant
Artillery
_

32
Naor Ben Yehoyada
Captain
Navy
_

33
Navot Morag
Staff Sergeant
Paratroopers
_
_

34
Noam Livne
Lieutenant
Engineering

_

35
Nir Evron
Lieutenant
Paratroopers
_
_

36
Noam Wiener
Lieutenant
Infantry
_
_

37
Nethanel Elzas
Staff Sergeant
Infantry
_

38
Adi Martzuk
Staff Sergeant
Air Force AA
_
_

39
Ofer Shor
Captain
Infantry
_
_

40
Amit Bar Tzedek
Staff Sergeant
Armored Corps
_
_

41
Amit Gal
Sergeant First Class
Paratroopers
_
_

42
Amit Mashiah
Staff Sergeant
Artillery
_
_

43
Ram Alpya
Staff Sergeant
Infantry
_
_

44
Rami Kaplan
Major
Armored Corps

45
Shoki Shade
Staff Sergeant
Paratroopers
_

46
Shahar Dolev
Lieutenant
Air Force
_

47
Shai Yakir
Staff Sergeant
Infantry
_
_

48
Shay Tzoker
Sergeant First Class
Navy
_
_

49
Shamai Leibovitz
Staff Sergeant
Armored Corps
_
_

50
Itai Haviv
Captain
Artillery

_

51
Amir Efrat
Lieutenant
Air Force
_
_

52
Jonathan Eshpar
Staff Sergeant
Armored Corps
_
_

53
Shahar Smooha
Sergeant
Armored Corps
_
_

54
Uri Tal
Staff Sergeant
Infantry
_
_

55
Ron GerLitz
Captain
Navy

_

56
Nir Lahav
Staff Sergeant
Paratroopers
_
_

57
Tal Avgar
Staff Sergeant
Air Force AA
_
_

58
Udi Elifants
Lieutenant
Artillery
_
_

59
Marcelo Svirsky
Corporal
Engineering
_

60
Chen Alon
Major
Armored Corps
_
_

61
Ori Rot-Levi
Captain
Navy
_
_

62
Bar Heffetz
Staff Sergeant
Armored Corps

_

63
Noam Ziv
Major
Paratroopers
_
_

64
Nir Gov
Warrant Officer
Other
_
_

65
Barak Adorian
Sergeant First Class
Paratroopers
_
_

66
Yossi Veissid
Sergeant First Class
Infantry
_
_

67
Muli Linder
Lieutenant
Medicine Corps
_
_

68
Amir Shahal
Captain
Infantry
_
_

69
dishon bilgory
Staff Sergeant
Navy
_
_

70
Amir Ziv
Sergeant First Class
Paratroopers
_
_

71
Boaz Zussman
Major
Armored Corps
_
_

72
Itai Eisinger
Staff Sergeant
Artillery
_
_

73
Yuval Ron
Staff Sergeant
Army Intelligence
_
_

74
Uzi Dror
Staff Sergeant
Armored Corps
_
_

75
Liron Prestelnik
Captain
Armored Corps
_
_

76
Gilad Svirski
Staff Sergeant
Artillery
_
_

77
Ori Finkelman
Lieutenant
Artillery
_
_

78
Moshe Sivan
Captain
Armored Corps
_
_

79
Barak Atzmon
Staff Sergeant
Artillery
_
_

80
Akiva Leibowitz
Captain
Artillery
_

81
Arad Hakim
Staff Sergeant
Infantry
_

82
Uri Dotan
Staff Sergeant
Infantry
_
_

83
Dan Goldenblatt
Staff Sergeant
Paratroopers
_
_

84
Timor Israeli
Lieutenant
Armored Corps
_
_

85
Erez Zverling
Staff Sergeant
Paratroopers
_

86
Amit Peer
Staff Sergeant
Armored Corps
_
_

87
Leor Kroch
Staff Sergeant
Infantry
_
_

88
Noam Sagi
Captain
Navy
_
_

89
Hanoch Frankovits
Lieutenant
Armored Corps
_
_

90
Hed Bar-Nissan
Captain
Paratroopers
_
_

91
Samuel Miller
Staff Sergeant
Other
_
_

92
Trevor Galor
Staff Sergeant
Paratroopers
_
_

93
Avi Blum
First Sergeant
Paratroopers

94
Omri Klainberger
Staff Sergeant
Artillery
_
_

95
Amir Rosenfeld
Captain
Air Force AA
_
_

96
Uri AviHay
Staff Sergeant
Artillery
_
_

97
Shay Peled
Sergeant
Air Force AA
_
_

98
Gabi Bokvza
Staff Sergeant
Paratroopers
_
_

99
Roey Vollman
Lieutenant
Artillery
_
_

100
Ram Efrat
Staff Sergeant
Infantry
_
_

101
Clark Hoover
Corporal
Armored Corps
_
_

102
Gilad Elazar
Sergeant First Class
Infantry
_
_

103
Guy Keshet
Staff Sergeant
Armored Corps
_
_

104
Yotam Cohen
Sergeant
Infantry
_
_

105
Ofer Teler
Sergeant
Other
_
_

106
Ronen Edelman
Staff Sergeant
Army Intelligence
_
_

107
Yoram Talmon
Captain
Medicine Corps
_
_

108
Shimon El-Ami
Major
Other
_

109
Tal Shamir
Staff Sergeant
Armored Corps
_
_

110
Doron Tzabari
Lieutenant
Medicine Corps
_
_

111
Aviad Roitgrund
Staff Sergeant
Engineering
_
_

112
Oded chakim
Staff Sergeant
Armored Corps
_
_

113
Youval Tamari
Captain
Air Force
_
_

114
Shuli Weis
Staff Sergeant
Medicine Corps
_
_

115
Itai Berger
Major
Armored Corps
_
_

116
Zohar Mor
Lieutenant
Navy
_
_

117
Michael Weksler
Staff Sergeant
Armored Corps
_
_

118
Shahar Tzur
Captain
Navy
_

119
Eliav Saharovitch
Staff Sergeant
Infantry

Zimphire · 09:26 AM

Originally posted by version:
Sorry kitten, had to do this.

Why do you feel the need to apologize to her? Interesting..

Zim, so typical of you, seems like any source tht is contrry to your skewed view is biased, and therefore not worthy of your opinion. here's the names of the israeli soldiers for you. The last link wil lgive you names.

No that isn't what is going on. Any source that isn't a known one that has a reputation of speaking the truth. The page you posted is not one of them. ANyone can put up a web page and call whatever they wish the truth.

How about I get some Israelis soldiers to talk to you, amd give you their personal, verifiable opinion of what it's like to serve in the IDF?

Well there you go assuming I have not talked to any Israeli soldier. My cousin actually went on a trip to Israel, met a soldier and is no married to him. And DOES live over there now. I have met him on two occasions.

How many more sites do you wat me to list. Oh, I forgot, it's onyl legitimate in your mind if FOX, or CNN covers this, well, the BBC, adn Channel 4 already did. These sites are Israeli based, run by soldiers, and are from Israelis, get the picture?

No you are taking these stories and adding and exaggerating them. For instance.

http://www.spectacle.org/0302/refuse.html

Says nothing about Israel purposely targeting women and children like the terrorists are.

http://www.comdsd.org/article_archive/refuseniks.htm

"COMD is an anti-militarism organization that also challenges the institution of the military"
And Says nothing about Israel purposely targeting women and children like the terrorists are.

And you wonder why I laugh at your links.

http://www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp

Says nothing about Israel purposely targeting women and children like the terrorists are.

And is not a unbiased site.

Try again.

version · Sep 25, 2003, 09:21 AM

I could list the lot, but there's quite a few hudnred, adn those are just he ones who have refused to serve so far. There are thousands who are wanting to do the same.

Zimphire · Sep 25, 2003, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by version in a foaming at the mouth tangent:
<snip>

Man that was annoying.. you should get banned just for posting that.

BTW none of it proves that Israel attacks innocent women and children on purpose. As a point to attack them.

Still waiting..

Zimphire · Sep 25, 2003, 09:23 AM

Originally posted by version:
I could list the lot, but there's quite a few hudnred, adn those are just he ones who have refused to serve so far. There are thousands who are wanting to do the same.

No one is arguing that these people are doing this.

What is your point?

version · Sep 25, 2003, 09:24 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Why do you feel the need to apologize to her? Interesting..
[/b]
No that isn't what is going on. Any source that isn't a known one that has a reputation of speaking the truth. The page you posted is not one of them. ANyone can put up a web page and call whatever they wish the truth.
[/b] Well there you go assuming I have not talked to any Israeli soldier. My cousin actually went on a trip to Israel, met a soldier and is no married to him. And DOES live over there now. I have met him on two occasions.
[/b]
No you are taking these stories and adding and exaggerating them. For instance.
[/b]
Says nothing about Israel purposely targeting women and children like the terrorists are.

Says nothing about Israel purposely targeting women and children like the terrorists are.

And is not a unbiased site.

Try again. [/B]

Dear, oh dear. I am showing you just ONE example of how soem Israelis see this situation, and how they are refusing to serve.

Next, I will show you the personal testimonies of soldiers aiming for children, adn women.

God, your only link to ISrael is through some ambigious source, you met twice. Well, news for you, I have many fmaily there, all have served in the IDF. I have given you names of soldier for you to check out. I will give you stories of deliberate brutality next. Sources? How much more credible can you get, when these sources are from those actually involved? Who are in teh IDF, 500, that;s 499 more than your one friend. I think I know who I;d trust first.

P.s. I've been to Israel about 46 times in my life.

version · Sep 25, 2003, 09:27 AM

If you bear with me, my point will become clear. Your posts infer that the Isralie army do no wrong, that they somehow don't commit acts of attrocities. I am begininning to show you that in the first palce many soldiers are sick of the treatment the y dispense to these people, and next I will show you exactly why they are refusing; because they are commanded to, and witnessed acts against women, children, adn innocnet men,m someyhign you claim to not happen.

version · Sep 25, 2003, 09:30 AM

Israel Kills Arab Children and Wants More U.S. Aid

by Charles Coughlin

Two stories were in the news recently (although not the mainstream news). One story describes a new sadistic "game" that Israeli soldiers were playing. The soldiers would taunt Palestinian children over loudspeakers. When children "took the bait" and began throwing rocks at the distant Israeli soldiers and their loudspeakers, the soldiers would open fire with real weapons and snuff out some of these young opponents. The second story tells of Israel demanding more money from the U.S. Perhaps they think they should be paid for killing children.

The story about Israeli troops taunting and shooting children was told by New York Times reporter Chris Hedges. Hedges' story appeared on a non-mainstream web site (Ref. 1) and the most shocking part appears below:

"And I walked out towards the dunes and... over the loudspeaker from an Israeli army Jeep on the other side of the electric fence they were taunting these kids. And these kids started to throw rocks. And most of these kids were 10, 11, 12 years old. And, first of all, the rocks were the size of a fist. They were being hurled towards a Jeep that was armor-plated. I doubt they could even hit the Jeep. And then I watched the soldiers open fire. And it was--I mean, I've seen kids shot in Sarajevo. I mean, snipers would shoot kids in Sarajevo. I've seen death squads kill families in Algeria or El Salvador. But I'd never seen soldiers bait or taunt kids like this and then shoot them for sport."

Only a few weeks ago Israeli soldiers shot two pregnant Palestinian women and killed the husband of one of the women. (Ref. 2) Those shootings resulted in a sharp increase in violence as outraged Palestinians retaliated. Naturally no mainstream news outlets blamed Israeli atrocities for the worsening situation. More recently, an Israeli tank shot at and destroyed a vehicle, killing a woman and her three children. (Ref. 3) These horrendous atrocities combined with the report of Israeli soldiers provoking and then shooting to death Palestinian children should bring world-wide condemnation of Israel. Instead, the U.S. government is debating the size of an INCREASE in aid to Israel. (Ref. 4)

Israel already gets three billion dollars per year from the U.S. A conservative estimate of the total military aid to Israel comes to 91 billion dollars. (Ref. 5) This didn't stop the Israelis from asking for even more. The Israelis have requested the "modest" sum of 800 million dollars in addition to the usual three billion this year.

The annual aid to Egypt should be added to the aid to Israel when determining how much Israel costs America. Egypt is paid 2.5 billion dollars per year by the U.S. to stay on friendly relations with Israel. (One can imagine the parents of a wretched, misbehaved child similarly paying another child to be his friend.) Does any American (aside from the Jews and lapdog mainstream politicians) want 5.5 billion dollars every year being spent on Israel? We could fund a long list of desperately needed projects right here in America with that sort of money. It looks like our politicians will probably give the Israelis 200 million dollars in additional aid instead of the 800 million. (So all the Israelis have to do in future negotiations is multiply what they want by four.)

If any other nation besides Israel, had an equally bad human rights records and an arrogant, openly racist government that clearly supported a policy of genocide, it would be condemned by all the civilized nations in the world. Unfortunately the Jews control our mass media and our politicians. Israeli atrocities against women and children are routinely censored from the mainstream press, and no mainstream politicians are brave enough to call the Israelis "war criminals." Not only are our political leaders too cowardly to condemn Israel, they will mostly likely vote an additional 200 million dollars in foreign aid basically rewarding Israel for killing women and children.

1). Excerpts: NPR Interview of Chris Hedges
http://64.226.129.19/pmw/manager/fea...ge.asp?mid=487

2). Palestinian Woman Suicide Bomber Vowed Revenge
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...st_bomber_dc_5

3). Israelis Murder Palestinian Family: Mother and three children
http://www.hoffman-info.com/palestine46.html

4). U.S. said to reject new aid for Israel
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pa...&listSrc=Y

5). A Conservative Total for U.S. Aid to Israel: $91 Billion�and Counting
http://www.washington-report.org/bac...1/0101015.html

Zimphire · Sep 25, 2003, 09:30 AM

Originally posted by version:
Dear, oh dear. I am showing you just ONE example of how soem Israelis see this situation, and how they are refusing to serve.

But I wasn't arguing that. I am saying what was going on isn't as bad as what the Palestinian pig dogs are doing. I have yet to see one of them complain they were ordered to specifically take out women and children.

Next, I will show you the personal testimonies of soldiers aiming for children, adn women.

Well if they are doing it, then the soldiers are at fault. I sure hope you aren't saying they are commanded to specifically do that. And these sources better be legite and a non-biased resource that has a reputation.

God, your only link to ISrael is through some ambigious source, you met twice. Well, news for you, I have many fmaily there, all have served in the IDF.

How pretentious. Heh.

I have given you names of soldier for you to check out.

What, you want me to get ahold of them? lol

I will give you stories of deliberate brutality next. Sources? How much more credible can you get, when these sources are from those actually involved? Who are in teh IDF, 500, that;s 499 more than your one friend. I think I know who I;d trust first.

Again, unless this is being reported by someone with credibility, it means nothing, You can't seem to grasp that. The internet is full of lies.

P.s. I've been to Israel about 46 times in my life.

And that means you can't be biased? How silly.

Zimphire · Sep 25, 2003, 09:31 AM

Originally posted by version:
If you bear with me, my point will become clear. Your posts infer that the Isralie army do no wrong, that they somehow don't commit acts of attrocities.

I said no such things. I said they were not commanded to kill women and children specifically. You are trying to twist things. Very very dishonest of you version. Tsk Tsk.

version · Sep 25, 2003, 09:32 AM

I never claimed to not be biased, of course i have my views, just liek you. There is no such thing as true objectivity, you have shown your true colours, and your biases.

version · Sep 25, 2003, 09:33 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:

I said no such things. I said they were not commanded to kill women and children specifically. You are trying to twist things. Very very dishonest of you version. Tsk Tsk. [/B]

you're claiming that Israeli soldiers do not deliberately kill women and children. That is dishonest when I bring evidence.

More than 250 Palestinian and 72 Israeli children have been killed in Israel and the Occupied Territories in the past 23 months. When the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child meets to consider Israel's periodic report on Wednesday October 2, Amnesty International calls for a new mindset among Israelis and Palestinians to prevent the killing of more children. Killing the Future: Children in the Line of Fire, a new report issued today by Amnesty International details the way in which Palestinian and Israeli children have been targeted in an unprecedented manner since the beginning of the current intifada.

"Children are increasingly bearing the brunt of this conflict. Both the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) and Palestinian armed groups show an utter disregard for the lives of children and other civilians, Amnesty International said today.

"Respect for human life must be restored. Only a new mindset among Israelis and Palestinians can prevent the killing of more children."

The impunity enjoyed by members of the IDF and of Palestinian groups responsible for killing children has no doubt helped create a situation where the right to life of children and civilians on the other side has little or no value.

"Enough of unacceptable reasons and excuses. Both the Israeli government and the Palestinian Authority must act swiftly and firmly to investigate the killing of each and every child and ensure that all those responsible for such crimes are brought to justice," the organization stated.

The international community should heed the call by Amnesty International and scores of other NGOs for international monitors to be sent to the region. The Israeli government should stop refusing the presence of international monitors. Amnesty International believes that had observers been present in the region since October 2000, their presence may have saved the lives of Israeli and Palestinian children as well as other civilians.

Killings of Palestinian children
The majority of Palestinian children have been killed in the Occupied Territories when members of the IDF responded to demonstrations and stone throwing incidents with unlawful and excessive use of lethal force. Eighty Palestinian children were killed by the IDF in the first three months of the intifada alone.

Sami Fathi Abu Jazzar died on the eve of his 12th birthday after being shot in the head by a live bullet fired by Israeli soldiers into a crowd of mostly primary school children. The shooting took place in the aftermath of a stone throwing demonstration. Six other children were injured by live fire in the same incident. Amnesty International delegates were present in the crowd at the time and concluded that the lives of the soldiers were not in danger.

In the past year Palestinian children have been killed when the IDF randomly opened fire, shelled or bombarded residential neighbourhoods at times when there was no exchange of fire and in circumstances in which the lives of the IDF soldiers were not at risk. Others were killed during Israeli state assassinations, when the IDF destroyed Palestinian houses without warning, and by flechette shells and booby traps used by the IDF in densely populated areas.

The large numbers of children killed and injured and the circumstances in which they were killed indicates that little or no care was taken by the IDF to avoid causing harm to children.

Dina Matar, two-months-old and Ayman Matar, 18-months-old, were among nine children killed on 22 July 2002 when the IDF dropped a one ton bomb from an F-16 fighter jet on a densely populated area of Gaza city. The bomb killed 17 people. The aim of the attack was to assassinate a leading Hamas activist, who was among those killed. The following day Israel's Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon called the attack "one of the most successful operations".

A number of Palestinian children have also died after being held up at IDF checkpoints, and delayed or even prevented from passing through to reach hospital. At least three children have been killed by Israeli settlers. In most cases the IDF does not intervene to protect Palestinians from Israeli settlers, who literally get away with murder.

Killings of Israeli children
Israeli children have been killed by armed Palestinian groups both in the Occupied Territories and inside Israel. The first Israeli child killed in this intifada was killed in January 2001 near Ramallah, in the Occupied Territories. About 70 percent of the victims were killed by Palestinian suicide bombings and others were killed in shootings and other bomb attacks on cars or public buses.

In the last 18 months there has been a marked increase in attacks on Israeli civilians and an increasingly high number of victims have been children. In the first seven months of 2002 alone, 36 Israeli children were killed by Palestinian armed groups, 19 in Israel and 17 in the Occupied Territories.

On 1 June 2001 a suicide bomber blew himself up among a group of young people waiting to enter the "Dolphinarium" night club. Twelve of the 21 people who were killed were aged under 18. Among the victims were 14-year-old Maria Tagilchev, outside whose school a car bomb had exploded two days earlier and 15-year-old Yevgenia Keren Dorfman, who sustained serious brain damage and died 18 days later.

The 'Izz al-Din al Qassam Brigades, the armed wing of the Palestinian Islamist group Hamas, claimed responsibility for the bombing and pledged to carry out further attacks.

Twelve people were killed and more than 50 were injured by a suicide bomber on the 2 March 2002. The bomb was detonated next to a group of women waiting with their children, for their husbands to leave the nearby synagogue. Those killed included two sisters Shiraz Nehmad aged 6 and her two-year-old sister Liran, their four cousins LIdor and Oriah Ilan aged 12 years and 18 months and Shaul and Avraham Eliahu Nehmad aged 15 and 17.

The full text of the report is available here

AutoJC · Sep 25, 2003, 09:33 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Why would I want to?

Or was this just another lame personal attack?

Gee, Zimph, I would not have seen this except that Face Ache wound up on my Ignore list.

I agree it was another lame personal attack.

Some of these posters are behaving like the remnants of the Iraq Republican Army. Having been defeated, they take cover and re-emerge as.....

Zimphire · Sep 25, 2003, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by version:
I never claimed to not be biased, of course i have my views, just liek you. There is no such thing as true objectivity, you have shown your true colours, and your biases.

My true colors? Wanting the truth? Wanting you to actually to prove what I said, not what you later claim I said when you cannot show any other proof?

Come on version.. I expect better from you.