[AB^2=BCxAC]

Ruch Limbaugh was doing NFL commentary on ABC and said the following:

"I think what we've had here is a little social concern in the NFL. The media has been very desirous that a black quarterback do well. There is a little hope invested in McNabb, and he got a lot of credit for the performance of this team that he didn't deserve. The defense carried this team."

Over the next couple of days, a lot of people start complaining that it was racist and inciteful of hate mongering against blacks in the NFL.

Rush replies:

"This is such a mountain out of a molehill. There's no racism here, there's no racist intent whatsoever. All this has become the tempest that it is because I must have been right about something. If I wasn't right there wouldn't be this cacophony of outrage that has sprung up in the sports writer community."

My opinion: Limbaugh is an asshole. It's an attack on black equality and he doesn't even see it. A piece of slander on a black athlete carries the weight of much more prejudice than against just one individual.

For years, decades even, Rush has decried that affirmative action is unfair to the majority who work hard and get overlooked. He also enjoys repeating that the "liberal media establishment" uses politically correct methods to pander to a multi-ethnic audience and falsley atone for their reporting bias in the past. What a blowhard. It's not that cut and dry. It never is.

IMHO, this is a first-rate example of why I'm pretty tired of hearing that white-middle-class America isn't afraid of a multi-ethnic and multi-classed society sharing its wealth, because obviously Rush is and he'd rather people start out at a disadvantage and work their way up (less risk to the top class) than try to share the opportunities. It's easier to think that way when you're trying to defend your fat slice of the pie.

Edit: Rem: I'm white-middle-class, and I know how spoiled I am versus 90% the rest of the U.S. (I think)

[thunderous_funker]

Yeah, the NFL is so in love with black quarterbacks that rednecks are still clamoring for Quincy Carter to be benched, despite leading the team to a surprisingly good start.

So enamored of black quarterbacks that Steve McNair is almost ignored while everyone ponders whether or not Favre has still "got it".

The NFL has been yearning so strongly for black quarterbacks that Moon had to win 5 titles in Canada before anyone would give him a shot in the NFL.

Yep. Rush really has his finger on the pulse of the NFL, just like everything else.

And, of course, people don't hate him because he's a complete ass, but because he's so right. Does this explain why he hates Hillary so much? Is she right about everything?

[Nicko]

lol I saw this story on CNN. That guy is such a bigot! I mean, if he said something like that on the radio here in Canada, he would probably be charged.

I can't stand racist people.

[ink]

Originally posted by AB^2=BCxAC:
My opinion: Limbaugh is an asshole. It's an attack on black equality and he doesn't even see it. A piece of slander on a black athlete carries the weight of much more prejudice than against just one individual.

Anyone who disagrees should point to a kosher anologue using a white person (eg, "He's pretty good, for a white basketball player"). I was listening to his show today, and I couldn't believe the fans calling in to support him over this.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
Yeah, the NFL is so in love with black quarterbacks that rednecks are still clamoring for Quincy Carter to be benched, despite leading the team to a surprisingly good start.

So enamored of black quarterbacks that Steve McNair is almost ignored while everyone ponders whether or not Favre has still "got it".

The NFL has been yearning so strongly for black quarterbacks that Moon had to win 5 titles in Canada before anyone would give him a shot in the NFL.

Rednecks? That's nice.

Many, if not most Cowboy fans, live outside of Texas. The clamoring in Dallas for a superstar-caliber quarterback with an arm of gold (which Quincy has not) - not an inconsistent and error prone quarterback (like Quincy has been for the last 2 years). Parcells is their leader, make no mistake, and his staff has done a good job with Quincy. But it's not like Quincy is an All-Pro. He's a marginal quarterback.

McNair - everyone knows who he is and how good he is. It's his team's location in Tennessee that hurts his marketability.

Warren Moon - I think this discussion post-dates his tenure.

Besides, Rush wasn't referring to the NFL's treatment of blacks, he was talking about the media. Big difference. His point was that he feels the media credited too much of the Eagle's recent success to McNabb because he is a black QB, and not enough to their stifling defense.

Does the media pump up McNabb because he is black, or because he an elite QB?

Answering this is how we determine if Rush is right or wrong. Regardless, it is a sports discussion, not a political discussion. Hence, this is in the wrong forum.

Unless this is really meant to provide a springboard for the "I Hate Rush Limbaugh" crowd.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by ink:
Anyone who disagrees should point to a kosher anologue using a white person (eg, "He's pretty good, for a white basketball player").

I've heard this plenty of times on the basketball court. I've even heard Michael Jordan say to a defender "I'm gonna to take your white ass to town".

I've also seen and read several documentaries and pieces on Eminem, Justin Timberlake, even Vanilla Ice, and they all speculate that their success is due largely to the fact that they are white - not because they are talented and hardworking (which is likely more the case).

I was listening to his show today, and I couldn't believe the fans calling in to support him over this.

PRESTO! A new listener.

Add in that ESPN's Gameday ratings are up 10% since Rush came onboard (24% increase in their targeted demographic), and it all starts making sense.

Controversy sells, and Rush can definitely stir some of that up.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Does the media pump up McNabb because he is black, or because he an elite QB?

Good points. I guess the real problem I have with Rush is that it appears his politics blinds him to being a competent sports announcer. How else can you explain even asking this question??

McNabb gets a lot of love because he's the undisputed leader of a team many expect to win Super Bowls.

Even while hurt and playing in only 10 games last year he had a higher QB rating than Favre, Brady, Vick, and just about everyone else. In fact, of the QB's who played at least 10 games in 2002, McNabb's rating puts him in the top 10.

So suggesting that McNabb's popularity with fans and sportswriters is because he's black is not only racist (don't conservatives advocate a colorblind meritocracy?) but demonstrates a feeble grasp of the sport he is being paid to "analyze".

As for Rush-bashing, when I heard he was coming on the show I was very surprised (since he's very controversial and polarizing, not usually what marketing people like), but I gave him the benefit of doubt. Who knows? Maybe he really knows his stuff and we already know he has a keen (if often viscious) sense of humor. It just might work out.

Well, I guess he can't stop being a self-righteous know-it-all muck-raker long enough to enjoy a cushy job in sports broadcasting.

[vmpaul]

He could just as easily made his point by saying 'has been very desirous that a East coast Big market team quarterback do well.'. But he didn't.

If it's true(that there is a desire), it has nothing to do with race and more to do with the size and demographics of the football crazy Northeast region of the country.

As a sports fan I DO think there is a media bias but not in terms of race. It appears in the coverage of east vs. west coast teams. East coast teams invariably get more coverage, no matter how they're doing, compared to the West coast franchises.

There was no reason to play the race card. Shows where his head is at.

Got to watch those Freudian slips. They'll getcha...

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
How else can you explain even asking this question??

To provoke debate in and around the game.

McNabb gets a lot of love because he's the undisputed leader of a team many expect to win Super Bowls....Even while hurt and playing in only 10 games last year he had a higher QB rating than Favre, Brady, Vick, and just about everyone else. In fact, of the QB's who played at least 10 games in 2002, McNabb's rating puts him in the top 10.

Top 10 is not elite. They were expected (if you believe Philly fans) to go to the big dance the last 2 years, and no dice - partly because of poor QB play.

When you speak of McNair, the phrase after playoff losses has been "despite solid, gritty QB play".

So suggesting that McNabb's popularity with fans and sportswriters is because he's black is not only racist (don't conservatives advocate a colorblind meritocracy?) but demonstrates a feeble grasp of the sport he is being paid to "analyze".

His opinion is that McNabb is a slightly-above average QB who becomes 'elite' in the media's eyes due to the fact that he is black.

He supports this notion by saying that the Eagle defense is what has gotten the team as far as they've gone.

The more I think about it, the more it may be true. I mean, McNair has been hurting (for like the last 3 years), and he's doing well. Same with Culpepper. Perhaps McNabb is only above average.

Well, I guess he can't stop being a self-righteous know-it-all muck-raker long enough to enjoy a cushy job in sports broadcasting.

All sports broadcasters, especially analysts and color commentators, are know-it-alls.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by vmpaul:
He could just as easily made his point by saying 'has been very desirous that a East coast Big market team quarterback do well.'. But he didn't.

If it's true(that there is a desire), it has nothing to do with race and more to do with the size and demographics of the football crazy Northeast region of the country.

As a sports fan I DO think there is a media bias but not in terms of race. It appears in the coverage of east vs. west coast teams. East coast teams invariably get more coverage, no matter how they're doing, compared to the West coast franchises.

There was no reason to play the race card. Shows where his head is at.

Got to watch those Freudian slips. They'll getcha...

**coughcough**

Especially the "There was no reason to play the race card. Shows where his head is at" part.

[quandarry]

i don't like rush...never have...but he spoketh the truth...

you can say 'i'm proud to be jewish'

you can say 'i'm proud to be black' etc...etc...

but the moment you say 'i'm proud to be white'

whoa....watch out!

in other words if you are white you can't have a negative opinion of someone of color without being called a racist.

unless of course they take down the world trade center...

[AB^2=BCxAC]

But he didn't speak the truth, he gave his opinion.

That McNabb gets undeserved support and attention from the media because he's black and the sports media likes black folks. Boohoo.

Haven't African Americans been complaining for the better part of history until quite recently that white players get undeserved attention from the media because they're white and the sports media preferred white players? And complain that successful black figures in sports are resented by white fans who wish they could identify with the champions? Those are valid arguments to make against the establishment. It doesn't go both ways, and I wish that it doesn't would make sense to more people.

Sorry to break the bad news, but white people don't do well by gloating white-pride. The world tends to have a sharp memory of the Nazis and South Africa, colonialism, slavery, orientalism, Indian slaughters, and segregation. White people aren't going to live that down for a long time until things are really made level.

For Rush to complain that McNabb is getting hyped because of his race is the sort of thing that seems like truth, but is really just supposition rendered from a very subjective point of view that isolates black players in the media.

edit: added the boohoo.

[pooka]

I think all of you should be ****ing ashamed of yourselves because you watch football.

[OldManMac]

Originally posted by pooka:
I think all of you should be ****ing ashamed of yourselves because you watch football.

Don't know if you're serious or not, but I agree with the statement!

[quandarry]

Originally posted by AB^2=BCxAC:
But he didn't speak the truth, he gave his opinion.

That McNabb gets undeserved support and attention from the media because he's black and the sports media likes black folks. Boohoo.

Haven't African Americans been complaining for the better part of history until quite recently that white players get undeserved attention from the media because they're white and the sports media preferred white players? And complain that successful black figures in sports are resented by white fans who wish they could identify with the champions? Those are valid arguments to make against the establishment. It doesn't go both ways, and I wish that it doesn't would make sense to more people.

Sorry to break the bad news, but white people don't do well by gloating white-pride. The world tends to have a sharp memory of the Nazis and South Africa, colonialism, slavery, orientalism, Indian slaughters, and segregation. White people aren't going to live that down for a long time until things are really made level.

For Rush to complain that McNabb is getting hyped because of his race is the sort of thing that seems like truth, but is really just supposition rendered from a very subjective point of view that isolates black players in the media.

edit: added the boohoo.

why do i feel so stupid?

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by AB^2=BCxAC:
But he didn't speak the truth, he gave his opinion.

That McNabb gets undeserved support and attention from the media because he's black and the sports media likes black folks. Boohoo.

Limbaugh's controversial statement has prompted me, a devout football fan, to do some thinking on the issue.

Why don't I see Rich Gannon doing Chunky Soup commercials? He's been a top QB for a while now. His stats easily surpass McNabb's, and he's been to the Super Bowl.

What about Brad Johnson? His career stats are very similar to McNabbs, but unlike McNabb, he has won a Super Bowl. I don't hear any announcers or writers preaching that Johnson is an elite QB.

In my fantasy league, McNabb has been taken in the first round for the last 3 years. But each year, many 'white' QBs taken in the later rounds outscore him throughout the year.

I don't know if it's because McNabb is black. Perhaps it's that , and maybe McNabb just has a high-powered PR team behind him pumping his name all over the place (though sports writers still are enamored w/him).

Rush's statement may not be politically correct, but it did provoke some in-depth analysis on my part that turned up some interesting results. I think that's precisely the reason ESPN hired him. That, and maybe they are tired of putting together a show hosted by a bunch of ex-players who are extremely hesitant to criticise their own (the current players).

[The Mick]

Anyone who knows a bit about football would know that Rush's statements are full of horse crap. Take a look at the Eagles' offensive stats for the past three years and they have improved drastically over the three years before McNabb joined the league. Last year in particular they had significantly more yards and points scored compared to 2001. McNabb's QB rating last year was higher than most including many other "elite" quarterbacks like Jeff Garcia, Steve McNair, Tom Brady, Brett Favre and Michael Vick. The Eagles have gone to the NFC Championship game 2 years in a row, but we're supposed to believe that McNabb is a crappy QB that is getting some type of free ride since he's black? Please. Ask Warren Moon or Randall Cunningham if they got a free ride. Hell, Cunningham was asked point blank by a reporter at the beginning of his career "How the hell do you think you'll be able to read defenses?" Free ride indeed.

ESPN released a statement about this:

Although Mr. Limbaugh today stated that his comments had 'no racist intent whatsoever,' we have communicated to Mr. Limbaugh that his comments were insensitive and inappropriate. Throughout his career, he has been consistent in his criticism of the media's coverage of a myriad of issues

Way to piss off your employer a month into your new gig.

Ironically Rush is whining that he can say these things despite any supporting evidence since he has the right to free speech protected by the Constitution. He has over the years attacked people for using the very same argument in defense of their own ignorant statements. Also, he is constantly crying foul when people play "the race card" when race was never an issue before. Now that he has done the very same thing regarding Donovan McNabb, the NFL and the media, he apparently has no problem with it. He's a hypocrite and may have shown his hand as a bigot by introducing race into an issue where it is completely unwarranted. Rush should stick to arguing the merits of a player based on performance and results rather than the color of their skin, assuming he still has a job at ESPN.

[macvillage.net]

Ruch Limbaugh makes white people look bad.

He's a perfect example of White American ignorance at it's finest.

It's degrading for his attackees... as well as everyone around him. His company, and his fellow human beings, for having to be associated with him.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by The Mick:
Anyone who knows a bit about football would know that Rush's statements are full of horse crap. ... Last year in particular they had significantly more yards and points scored compared to 2001. McNabb's QB rating last year was higher than most including many other "elite" quarterbacks like Jeff Garcia, Steve McNair, Tom Brady, Brett Favre and Michael Vick. The Eagles have gone to the NFC Championship game 2 years in a row, but we're supposed to believe that McNabb is a crappy QB that is getting some type of free ride since he's black?

Why would you include Michael Vick in a discussion of 'elite' QBs? Hmmm. Maybe someday, maybe someday soon, but not yet.

If you read what Limbaugh said, it didn't include calling McNabb crappy at all. Nor did he say he was getting a free ride. Limbaugh said the defense has carried this team, but McNabb was getting all the credit because writers want to see black QBs succeed. If anything, Limbaugh was criticizing sports writers for pumping up McNabb and not crediting the defense enough.

Philly last year with 'elite' McNabb went 7-3. With backups Detmer and Feely leading the end-of-season charge, they went 5-1.

Meanwhile, Miami with the 'lowly' Jay Fiedler went 7-3. With backup Ray Lucas, the Dolphins went 2-4.

The Point? There was no dropoff whatsoever in Philly's production with McNabb out. Many claim the Eagles were actually a better team without McNabb, and last week, the capacity crowd in the brand-spanking-new home of the Philadelphia Eagles could be heard chanting "AJ FEELY" (ie- bring in the backup qb).

Miami, however, suffered a huge dropoff. They ended up missing the playoffs altogether.

My point - if a team loses an elite player (ie. one of the 'best' in the game), why wouldn't they suffer a dropoff in production. If you take Michael Jordan away from the Bulls, or Tim Duncan away from the Spurs...those teams become nothing without their 'elite' player. The Philadelphia Eagles without the 'elite' McNabb - they got better.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
He's a perfect example of White American ignorance at it's finest.

hahaha. If I could be a tenth as successful as him, and earn a fraction of his paycheck talking all this political gibberish - I'd take being ignorant.

I'll enjoy being ignorant while relaxing in my pool on my island (that I'd fly my jet to). Heck, I'd even call up some conservative honeys to join me. If my rum mill is bottling, maybe I'd get drunk enough to fly Ms. Coulter down, get her drun too, then nail her from behind.

When this all happens, I'll make sure to take a photo of my ignorant ass doing this dirty deed, and I'll post the photo here (on what will then be called SpacefreakNN).

[The Mick]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Why would you include Michael Vick in a discussion of 'elite' QBs? Hmmm. Maybe someday, maybe someday soon, but not yet.

If you read what Limbaugh said, it didn't include calling McNabb crappy at all. Nor did he say he was getting a free ride. Limbaugh said the defense has carried this team, but McNabb was getting all the credit because writers want to see black QBs succeed. If anything, Limbaugh was criticizing sports writers for pumping up McNabb and not crediting the defense enough.

Philly last year with 'elite' McNabb went 7-3. With backups Detmer and Feely leading the end-of-season charge, they went 5-1.

Meanwhile, Miami with the 'lowly' Jay Fiedler went 7-3. With backup Ray Lucas, the Dolphins went 2-4.

The Point? There was no dropoff whatsoever in Philly's production with McNabb out. Many claim the Eagles were actually a better team without McNabb, and last week, the capacity crowd in the brand-spanking-new home of the Philadelphia Eagles could be heard chanting "AJ FEELY" (ie- bring in the backup qb).

Miami, however, suffered a huge dropoff. They ended up missing the playoffs altogether.

My point - if a team loses an elite player (ie. one of the 'best' in the game), why wouldn't they suffer a dropoff in production. If you take Michael Jordan away from the Bulls, or Tim Duncan away from the Spurs...those teams become nothing without their 'elite' player. The Philadelphia Eagles without the 'elite' McNabb - they got better.

Why wouldn't I include him in the list? He is considered to be the most valuable single player in the league by many. When he was injured in the pre-season it was a huge story. Vick is prominently featured on the cover of the last video game I bought, Madden 2004. Seems he gets a lot of press coverage, and his QB rating is lower than McNabb's.

As far as records without the team's star players, this is a well known phenomenon, when the team rallies together after the fall of their best player. It happened to the Colorado Avalanche last season, they were struggling big time, then Joe Sakic was hurt and lost for over a month. The team went on a huge winning streak, prompting Sakic to joke that maybe he should just sit out for a while longer after he was healed.

The most popular player in many cities is the backup QB when the starter is playing bad. McNabb played like sh*t the first two games, that's why the subject was brought up on ESPN. Fine, but where the hell does the man's race come into play? Answer: it has nothing to do with it. NOTHING. Nobody involved with an NFL franchise or any media outlet covering them gives a damn about a player's ethnicity or race when their merits are clearly on display on the field each week. If the man wins games, it doesn't matter if he's a purple alien.

As I said before, Rush should argue the merits of the team and its players instead of their skin color. If he bothered to do any homework, he'd see that the Eagles have made impressive improvements on both sides of the ball in the past 3 years, transforming them into championship contenders from the lousy team of the past. It is certainly not just a function of their defense. Rush in effect said that McNabb has always been an overrated player and has been unfairly praised and rewarded due to some unfounded media bias geared toward the promotion of black quarterbacks specifically. Where is his evidence to support that assertion? Answer: he doesn't have any, the record speaks for itself. The claim that he is not given the same treatment as a white QB is absurd. I listened to the opening Monday night game against the Bucs while driving home, and the radio commentators were killing McNabb for playing so badly.

Rush's comments are nothing more than lowbrow race-baiting IMO, others may not feel that way but at a minimum they were grossly ignorant and stupid and he should lose his job at ESPN (he wasn't qualified to begin with). We've seen plenty of others in the sports world lose their jobs for making the same types of comments in the past.

[The Mick]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
hahaha. If I could be a tenth as successful as him, and earn a fraction of his paycheck talking all this political gibberish - I'd take being ignorant.

You're deflecting criticism of his remarks by pointing out his wealth. Stick to the point. Wealth does not equal wisdom.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by The Mick:
Why wouldn't I include him in the list? He is considered to be the most valuable single player in the league by many. When he was injured in the pre-season it was a huge story. Vick is prominently featured on the cover of the last video game I bought, Madden 2004. Seems he gets a lot of press coverage, and his QB rating is lower than McNabb's.

So, a QB who barely completes 50% of his passes and has a QB rating in the lower half of all starters is 'elite' because he gets press coverage and is a huge story?

Did you even read the Limbaugh statement? Your Vick analysis and referring to him as 'elite' plays right into Limbaugh's analysis.

[The Mick]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
So, a QB who barely completes 50% of his passes and has a QB rating in the lower half of all starters is 'elite' because he gets press coverage and is a huge story?

Did you even read the Limbaugh statement? Your Vick analysis and referring to him as 'elite' plays right into Limbaugh's analysis.

No, it defeats Limbaugh's analysis. Vick is considered elite and does not have the credentials to back it up. McNabb has the credentials but Limbaugh makes an ass of himself by claiming otherwise and attempting to discredit his record as media hype.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by The Mick:
Rush in effect said that McNabb has always been an overrated player and has been unfairly praised and rewarded due to some unfounded media bias geared toward the promotion of black quarterbacks specifically. Where is his evidence to support that assertion?

2002 Eagles w/ McNabb: 7-3
2002 Eagles w/o McNabb: 5-1

The claim that he is not given the same treatment as a white QB is absurd.

Rush never stated this...just that McNabb gets too much credit for the Eagless' success...that it's their defense that propels this team.

You need to stop misinterpreting and twisting Limbaugh's words. His statement was short, clear, and concise. They were not racist at all.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by The Mick:
No, it defeats Limbaugh's analysis. Vick is considered elite and does not have the credentials to back it up.

WRONG. It plays right into his hands. He's considered elite because the sports writers and media have said so...ala "the media has been very desirous that a black quarterback do well."

McNabb has the credentials but Limbaugh makes an ass of himself by claiming otherwise and attempting to discredit his record as media hype.

Has McNabb ever had a season QB rating over 90? How about over 87? Has he ever led a team to a Super Bowl?

Meanwhile, the 'non-elite' Brad Johnson, in 2 of the last 4 years, has had QB ratings of 92.9 and 90.0. He has also led a team to the Super Bowl, and he won it.

[The Mick]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
2002 Eagles w/ McNabb: 7-3
2002 Eagles w/o McNabb: 5-1

Rush never stated this...just that McNabb gets too much credit for the Eagless' success...that it's their defense that propels this team.

You need to stop misinterpreting and twisting Limbaugh's words. His statement was short, clear, and concise. They were not racist at all.

So a 7-3 record as a starting quarterback is a failing grade? McNabb has been voted to 3 straight Pro Bowls. His team has gone to the Conference Championship game the last 2 years. He was the runner up in MVP voting. But I guess he sucks 'cuz Rush said so.. Duhhhhh, ok.

Can you tell me again how McNabb is the only person to be given any credit for the team's success? I seem to remember Andy Reid, the head coach being voted coach of the year last season...

I'm not twisting anything Rush said. He brought up the issue of the man's race instead of basing his argument on the man's merit or performance. That is a fact. You are the one twisting his statements into this innocent benign discussion when in fact the race card happens to have Limbaugh's fingerprints on it.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by The Mick:
The most popular player in many cities is the backup QB when the starter is playing bad. McNabb played like sh*t the first two games, that's why the subject was brought up on ESPN.

Have you even heard Titans fans chant for their backup QB in the past whan McNair is having a crummy game? Packers fans w/ Farve? Raiders fans w/ Gannon? Cowboys fans w/ Aikman?

Those are 'elite' QBs, and they've all had crummy games - even in stretches.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by The Mick:
So a 7-3 record as a starting quarterback is a failing grade? McNabb has been voted to 3 straight Pro Bowls. His team has gone to the Conference Championship game the last 2 years. He was the runner up in MVP voting. But I guess he sucks 'cuz Rush said so.. Duhhhhh, ok.

<snip>You are the one twisting his statements into this innocent benign discussion when in fact the race card happens to have Limbaugh's fingerprints on it.

The MVP (of which McNabb was once a runner-up) is voted on by writers (see Limbaugh statement).

Just because Rush feels that the media gives too much credit to McNabb because he's black is no more a playing of the race card than Al Gore and Co. suing to have ballots recounted again and again and again because they felt that minorities in those 3 counties couldn't figure out how to punch holes in the ballots, or the issue of affirmative action as a whole.

It's pretty damn obvious that you have an agenda here, and equally obvious that you can't tell the difference between an elite player and an above-average player.

When you can't break an 87 rating as a QB, and your team can win as often or more without you (because your easily replaceable), and your fans chant for your benching, guess what? You're not an elite player.

[The Mick]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
WRONG. It plays right into his hands. He's considered elite because the sports writers and media have said so...ala "the media has been very desirous that a black quarterback do well."

Has McNabb ever had a season QB rating over 90? How about over 87? Has he ever led a team to a Super Bowl?

Meanwhile, the 'non-elite' Brad Johnson, in 2 of the last 4 years, has had QB ratings of 92.9 and 90.0. He has also led a team to the Super Bowl, and he won it.

You seem to feel that the American Football watching crowd takes all of their cues from the media. Could it be that the media calls Vick an elite player because people watching feel this way? Maybe football fans think he is exciting to watch because he is so dangerous, not because "the media" tells them to.

I'm not going to argue about your definition of what constitutes an "elite" QB in the NFL. Such things are inherently subjective. I would certainly consider a perennial playoff contender, a runner-up MVP, and a 3 time pro-bowl player among the best in the league. QB ratings do not factor in rushing yardage or rushing TDs.

Brad Johnson earned plenty of praise for his performance last season in leading the Bucs to a Super Bowl win. Is he as highly regarded as McNabb, or Vick, or McNair? No. But is he as dangerous as those three men? No. He is a one-dimensional player who ran for 30 yards, while McNabb ran for 460 and 6 TD in only 10 games. Therein lies the difference, the new direction of the league is mobile quarterbacks whose legs are as deadly as their arms. That's why my Broncos signed Jake Plummer in the off-season, 'cuz Brian Greise can't run.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by The Mick:
[B]Can you tell me again how McNabb is the only person to be given any credit for the team's success?/B]

You said it yourself....MVP runner-up, as voted by writers. Can you tell me what other Eagles received votes in the writers poll?

[The Mick]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Have you even heard Titans fans chant for their backup QB in the past whan McNair is having a crummy game? Packers fans w/ Farve? Raiders fans w/ Gannon? Cowboys fans w/ Aikman?

Those are 'elite' QBs, and they've all had crummy games - even in stretches.

Yes I have. So your assertion is that the truly elite are immune to criticism?

[The Mick]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
It's pretty damn obvious that you have an agenda here, and equally obvious that you can't tell the difference between an elite player and an above-average player.

Ah, so since I find Limbaugh's statements to be racist I must have been laying in wait for any chance to pounce on him. Right. You just keep on deflecting the criticism of his remarks by arguing whether or not McNabb is a good player. It seems to me that the vast majority of people feel that he is, and Limbaugh's comments are unfounded.

[Nicko]

Originally posted by The Mick:
Ah, so since I find Limbaugh's statements to be racist I must have been laying in wait for any chance to pounce on him. Right. You just keep on deflecting the criticism of his remarks by arguing whether or not McNabb is a good player. It seems to me that the vast majority of people feel that he is, and Limbaugh's comments are unfounded.

Yea no kidding! What does a persons colour of skin have to do with sports? or for anything for that matter? Resigning is the least he could have done.

.... though I bet if he didn't he would have been fired.

[The Mick]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
You said it yourself....MVP runner-up, as voted by writers. Can you tell me what other Eagles received votes in the writers poll?

Open your damned eyes and read. Their head coach (a white guy!) was voted coach of the year!

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by The Mick:
That's why my Broncos signed Jake Plummer in the off-season, 'cuz Brian Greise can't run.

Insiders will tell you that it's because Brian Greise has a drinking problem, and would often have to miss practices and games due to freak injuries incurred during binges - passing out at a party and suffering a concussion, falling down stairs and spraining his ankle, passing out in his kitchen and slicing his hand/arm...all during the season.

Shanahan felt he couldn't have an effective offense if his QB's availability was touch and go every week (and not due to on-the-field injuries), and Griese refused to admit having a drinking problem. But that stuff gets covered up.

Don't you think it's unusual that sports writers, with as much as they know about players and their lives, never report on substance abuse problems UNTIL a player gets into trouble w/ the law, or fails a drug test, or gets into an accident? It's an unwritten code.

As for mobile QBs being the new direction, do you think that might have something to do with the fact that they can't throw the ball accurately (and consistently), or that the QBs have trouble reading a defense, identifying the mismatch, and delivering the ball to the determined receiver - even when a blitz is coming?

Brad Johnson, Tom Brady, Kurt Warner, Trent Dilfer, Troy Aikman (recent Super Bowl winners) were all able to win Super Bowls without being speedsters. Sure, Young and Farve were in that era as well, and they could run, but they could also throw very accurately.

We'll see. I'm excited about this season. Been to 2 games already...my Cowboys have won both the games (and have more wins this year at the Meadowlands than the Jets and Giants combined).

If i'm feeling big, I may go to the new Lincoln Financial stadium in Philly for a Cowboys-Eagles game. If I make it there, I'll be sure to keep my ears open for anti-McNabb sentiment. Maybe I'll even hear the AJ Feely chant (which would be great, for the Cowboys would likely be winning, hence prompting such chants).

Of course, this is if the Philly fans don't rush me and shove my face into the ground for wearing a Cowboys hat - sorta like when they cheered as Michael Irvin lay paralyzed on the Vet turf.

Whatever...that's it for my NFL talk here.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by AB^2=BCxAC:
My opinion: Limbaugh is an asshole. It's an attack on black equality and he doesn't even see it. A piece of slander on a black athlete carries the weight of much more prejudice than against just one individual.

I agree that Rush is a complete asshole. However, is not a black athlete "just one individual" as any other athlete would be? Does the fact that he is black make him suddenly immune to criticism?

It's true that McNabb is getting more credit than he deserves, though he's an excellent player in his own right. He's a quarterback; they always get more credit than they deserve, because they're seen as the "leaders" of their teams. In that, McNabb is no different.

IMHO, this is a first-rate example of why I'm pretty tired of hearing that white-middle-class America isn't afraid of a multi-ethnic and multi-classed society sharing its wealth, because obviously Rush is and he'd rather people start out at a disadvantage and work their way up (less risk to the top class) than try to share the opportunities. It's easier to think that way when you're trying to defend your fat slice of the pie.

Rush may be afraid of it, or he may not. Personally I don't think it's fear which motivates him, but maybe that's just me. If he is, though, that speaks ill only of him. Simply because he may be afraid, does that mean all of white-middle-class-America is afraid?

For that matter, since when is Rush middle-class? He's no Bill Gates, to be sure, but he's still got one hell of a personal fortune.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
As for mobile QBs being the new direction, do you think that might have something to do with the fact that they can't throw the ball accurately (and consistently), or that the QBs have trouble reading a defense, identifying the mismatch, and delivering the ball to the determined receiver - even when a blitz is coming?

Mobile QBs aren't a new thing, that's for sure. They go back to Fran Tarkington. Randall Cunningham. John Elway.

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Brad Johnson, Tom Brady, Kurt Warner, Trent Dilfer, Troy Aikman (recent Super Bowl winners) were all able to win Super Bowls without being speedsters. Sure, Young and Farve were in that era as well, and they could run, but they could also throw very accurately.

Young, Farve, Elway. Mobile QBs who won Super Bowls. However, you are exactly right, they all could throw accurately and solidly. In fact, Elway became a better quarterback when his legs began to fade. (I know this, I am a huge Broncos fan and watched nearly every game of his career.)

Elway's LEGS got the Broncos into 3 Super Bowls, they lost. Elway's BRAINS and HEART (and a little help from a good D, Terrell Davis and a great O-Line) got them into two Super Bowls, which they won.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally posted by Millennium:
It's true that McNabb is getting more credit than he deserves, though he's an excellent player in his own right. He's a quarterback; they always get more credit than they deserve, because they're seen as the "leaders" of their teams. In that, McNabb is no different.

Bingo. He takes the credit and endorsement deals for Campbell's soup when the team does well. Perhaps he should learn to take the lion's share of the blame when the team sucks (like it did the first couple of weeks.)

I hope the Eagles turn it around. They were my pick to get to the big game in the NFC.

One thing is for sure, for those of you who think Rush wasn't qualified to be a football commentator - at least he knows what team McNabb plays for! (Howard Dean called the team the Philadelphia Jets in a press release.)

I actually think it's quite funny. Just a couple of weeks ago, I heard Terry Bradshaw refer to McNabb as Dante Culpepper, then correct himself. Tell me, do you think Terry would have mixed up Jeff Garcia and Drew Bledsoe?

[davesimondotcom]

Originally posted by The Mick:
Why wouldn't I include him in the list? He is considered to be the most valuable single player in the league by many. When he was injured in the pre-season it was a huge story. Vick is prominently featured on the cover of the last video game I bought, Madden 2004. Seems he gets a lot of press coverage, and his QB rating is lower than McNabb's.

Vick's mistake being put on Madden '04. That's why he broke his foot. Cursed.

You know who I compare Vick to? John Elway. Came into the league with HUGE expectations, wears the number 7, coached by Dan Reeves, quick, mobile, absolute cannon for an arm.

I just hope that Dan Reeves learned his lessons with Elway. Let Vick play. The team will be better for it. Don't force Vick into the pocket and into a conventional game. Teach him how to control his arm. Touch passes. Once Elway got some touch, his teams started winning.

Build a team around Vick. I would. His ratings might not be that high, but they will be. He's a superstar. Build a strong, quick O-line that will protect him, but stay mobile in case of a scramble. Get a good running back who can pass block and catch passes out of the backfield (done, they have Dunn.) Build a strong defense who can be on the field for long periods of time, because a team like this would score quickly. Smart recievers who come back for passes when Vick leaves the pocket. A big tight end who is also fast, creating mismatches. That's the Broncos from 96-2001.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally posted by AB^2=BCxAC:
Ruch Limbaugh was doing NFL commentary on ABC and said the following:

If you are going to argue facts, how about getting one right from the start. It was on ESPN, not ABC.

Originally posted by AB^2=BCxAC:
My opinion: Limbaugh is an asshole. It's an attack on black equality and he doesn't even see it. A piece of slander on a black athlete carries the weight of much more prejudice than against just one individual.

How is saying that the media gives someone more credit because of their skin color an attack on black equity. It's not like Rush was a coach and pulled McNabb out of the game and benched him for his skin color. And it certainly wasn't slander. It was an opinion. An opinion that was agreed to by Michael Irvin at the time it was stated. (P.S. Irvin is black.)

I don't mind if you think Rush is an asshole. Fine. That's your opinion. But don't make what he said into more than what it is.

Did you happen to catch his commentary the weeks BEFORE? If he is such a racist blowhard, how come he defended black coaches?

It's ironic that in week one, he stated that we shouldn't make African-Americans into pawns, but that's exactly what the Limbaugh haters have made McNabb into out of these rather bland statements.

[The Mick]

Limbaugh's comments were not necessarily an attack on black equity, they really were an attack on the sports media. He accused the sports media of having an unfair bias towards black quarterbacks. Just listen to the sports radio station in your town or read your local columnists. I think you'll find that most are quite upset at the insinuation of racial bias that Rush presented. To say that McNabb has not been fairly criticized for his performance this season is also inaccurate. Read this article from Peter King of SI to see what I mean. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ugh/index.html

If you want to discuss the merits of a man based on his performance on the field, as others here have, then do so. But to inject the man's race into the discussion is wrong.

Having said that, I think the difference between players like McNabb, Vick, Culpepper etc. and previous players like Elway, Favre and Young is that while they were good runners, they didn't run with the kind of speed and power like a running back does. That's what these new players can do and it makes them so dangerous. I agree that they may not win the Super Bowl though until they develop into more polished passers and leave more of the running duties to a dedicated running back. That's just based upon the history of the league we've seen. A blanced attack almost always wins the game over a one-dimensional team (or a one player team).

[typoon]

Originally posted by AB^2=BCxAC:
Ruch Limbaugh was doing NFL commentary on ABC and said the following:

"I think what we've had here is a little social concern in the NFL. The media has been very desirous that a black quarterback do well. There is a little hope invested in McNabb, and he got a lot of credit for the performance of this team that he didn't deserve. The defense carried this team."

Over the next couple of days, a lot of people start complaining that it was racist and inciteful of hate mongering against blacks in the NFL.

Rush replies:

"This is such a mountain out of a molehill. There's no racism here, there's no racist intent whatsoever. All this has become the tempest that it is because I must have been right about something. If I wasn't right there wouldn't be this cacophony of outrage that has sprung up in the sports writer community."

My opinion: Limbaugh is an asshole. It's an attack on black equality and he doesn't even see it. A piece of slander on a black athlete carries the weight of much more prejudice than against just one individual.

For years, decades even, Rush has decried that affirmative action is unfair to the majority who work hard and get overlooked. He also enjoys repeating that the "liberal media establishment" uses politically correct methods to pander to a multi-ethnic audience and falsley atone for their reporting bias in the past. What a blowhard. It's not that cut and dry. It never is.

IMHO, this is a first-rate example of why I'm pretty tired of hearing that white-middle-class America isn't afraid of a multi-ethnic and multi-classed society sharing its wealth, because obviously Rush is and he'd rather people start out at a disadvantage and work their way up (less risk to the top class) than try to share the opportunities. It's easier to think that way when you're trying to defend your fat slice of the pie.

Edit: Rem: I'm white-middle-class, and I know how spoiled I am versus 90% the rest of the U.S. (I think)

But I don't see you offended by Robert Byrd being a former member of the KKK or Things that others have said. Bustamante in CA has used the N word and there is little to no coverage of this, he is NOT asked to setp down. When a Black "leader" says something about a white man there is NO outcry for him to step down or resign or anything else. When the Mayor of Philly Says "the bothers and sisters are running the city, the borther's and sisters are running the city" I didn't hear much out cry from that. What would you say to a statement like that?

You sound like the typical person who has NEVER listened to his program. The typical person spitting out basless accustions about him. How is it an attack on black equality? Sorry but I've been listening to Rush for the Past 12 years and have NEVER heard a racist remark come from him. You can spin the statement he mande anyway you want.
" it's clear that many of the people writing about this have no real experience listening to this radio program and probably haven't even heard some of the other things that I have said on this ESPN show. I think in my essay in the second week of this ESPN show came to the defense of black coaches in the NFL, talking about the new hiring policy the league has... It's actually not a hiring policy. It's an interview policy. And I came totally to the defense of black coaches. There wasn't a word about that. Last week [I gave] an essay on Maurice Clarett and his attempt to speed up his admission into the NFL draft. Not a word about that. Here's this little Donovan McNabb comment.

Actually, if I can boil it down, what I did was compare Donovan McNabb's reputation on the field to his reputation in the media. When you boil it all down, that's the essence of what I did. And I said, "I don't think he's as good a quarterback as everybody else does." I also said, in that same segment, that I think the Eagles not only have made a good investment in McNabb, but they need to keep making the investment. I didn't say they ought to get rid of him, bench him or anything of the sort. I just said, "I'm a sports fan.
"-Rush Limbaugh

[vmpaul]

Originally posted by typoon:

You sound like the typical person who has NEVER listened to his program. The typical person spitting out basless accustions about him. How is it an attack on black equality? Sorry but I've been listening to Rush for the Past 12 years and have NEVER heard a racist remark come from him. You can spin the statement he mande anyway you want.

There are several threads going on the same subject so forgive me if I repeat myself.

He could just as easily made his point of McNabb being pumped up by the media and 'overrated' because they(the media & NFL) desire a successful QB on a successful team in the heavily populated football-crazy Northeast region of the country. There was no reason to appeal to race. None.

Do you think the media cares more about race promotion than money? The networks care more about RATINGS, so they can raise their AD RATES and make MORE MONEY. That is the primary concern. They wouldn't care if he was green or purple. As long as they have a strong team in Philly, whose continually in the playoff hunt. That's why we always see (admitted sports bias coming ) more coverage of lousy teams on the east coast than coverage of good teams around the country.

Rush and his following continually want to end Affirmative Action with the claim that we should have a 'colorblind' society. By focusing his premise on race instead of the real motives behind the networks attention (which he knows!) just shows that he's trying to make a political point by appealing to the racial divisions in this country.

[Spliffdaddy]

What?

Rush can't have an opinion about race?

Is that because he's white?

Why is it not a problem to suggest that blacks need preferential treatment to achieve (affirmative action) but it's the end of the world when somebody points out that a black person appears to be recieving preferential treatment?

[Spliffdaddy]

*SMACKDOWN*

(self administered)

[vmpaul]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
What?

Rush can't have an opinion about race?

Is that because he's white?

Why is it not a problem to suggest that blacks need preferential treatment to achieve (affirmative action) but it's the end of the world when somebody points out that a black person appears to be recieving preferential treatment?

Because that's NOT the reason he is given more media attention than other players. That is, if you accept the premise in the first place.

I'll say it again. Do you think the media cares more about race promotion than money?

I'll answer it. NO.

Appealing to that as a reason, when you know it's not true, is inappropriate.

*SMACKDOWN*, back at ya!!!

[Spliffdaddy]

weak effort.

My point still stands.

[vmpaul]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
weak effort.

My point still stands.

That's not a counter. It's capitulation.

We agree to disagree.

[Spliffdaddy]

I didn't agree to anything.

My point remains solidly anchored to heavy dense things - while yours is carried aloft by the breeze.

Why is it OK to want preferential treatment to be given to minorities - but wrong to point it out when it happens?