[moki]

A nice summary of the situation (as per usual for The Economist); the question really boils down to whether politicians will make the necessary but extremely unpopular revisions that are needed to the pension systems in many European countries, or will they just sweep them under the rug and hope the crisis doesn't come during their term?

from: http://www.economist.com/printeditio...ory_ID=2085219

.....

Work longer, have more babies
Sep 25th 2003
From The Economist print edition

Europe's pensions crisis won't go away. Governments need to do more, and voters need to accept changes

Get article background

EUROPE is currently witnessing the slow-motion explosion of the most predictable economic and social time-bomb in its history. As life expectancy began to increase quickly in the second half of the 20th century and fertility began to decline in the 1970s, the foundations of Europe's generous state-pension systems began slowly to crumble. These are pay-as-you-go schemes that force today's workers to finance yesterday's workers' pensions, based on the assumption that workers hugely outnumber retirees. But this has not been true for at least two decades. The current worker-pensioner ratio in Europe has fallen to about three workers for each pensioner, and it looks set to fall to a mere three workers for every two pensioners within 30 years. Most European governments have responded to this looming crisis only with the kind of timid tinkering that does little more than shift the problem to their successors (see article ).

This is precisely what the Italian government is about to do. Silvio Berlusconi's pension reform, unveiled this week, will come into effect only in 2008 when the current prime minister is unlikely still to be occupying the Palazzo Chigi in Rome. Instead of speeding up an earlier reform, Mr Berlusconi is merely fiddling with so-called “seniority” pensions that allow workers to retire at 57 if they have been in work for 35 years. Rather than abolishing these next year, as expected, he will continue them until 2008, and offer workers a fat bonus if they carry on working despite being eligible for what is now widely viewed as an over-generous perk.

Mr Berlusconi's loss of courage is typical of similar half-hearted efforts elsewhere. Germany is currently discussing an increase by monthly increments of the retirement age from 65 to 67 between 2011 and 2035, but even this minimal change is proving too much for the left wing of the ruling Social Democratic Party. France passed a law this year that will oblige its public-sector employees to work as long as those employed in the private sector in order to qualify for a full state pension, a welcome reform that should nevertheless have happened years ago. Austria's government dared to push through a rather more ambitious reform this year, but tiny Austria's spending on pensions is also of Italian proportions.

There is little mystery about why governments have been so pusillanimous. Changes to public pension schemes are extremely unpopular with workers and voters. In France and Italy, trade unions have often brought their countries to a standstill at the slightest hint of any change to pensions. Mr Berlusconi's attempts at pension reform played a big part in the downfall of his previous government in 1994.

And yet sooner rather than later, European governments, as well as the voters whom they are supposed to serve, will have to face the unpalatable truth that their current public pension schemes are not sustainable. Addressing that crisis will be painful for everyone, and no single remedy will be enough, but there are measures which both voters and governments should pursue—with some urgency.

First, governments will have to act much more boldly to reduce the scope of the core pay-as-you-go public pension system. Second, employees, public or private, should be encouraged instead to channel their savings into private retirement accounts, either administered by employers or (even better) run directly by fund-management firms, thus taking responsibility for their own retirements. If encouragement does not work, such private savings may have to be made compulsory. Third, the state retirement age should be scrapped, because a fixed pension age makes little sense either for privately-funded pension schemes, which should be encouraged, or for public schemes. Alternatively, or as well, many European countries will have to do something to address the effects of their declining birth rates in order to redress the imbalance between workers and pensioners.

Ten more years?

Revising current public-pension promises is tough. But the most immediately effective policy would be to raise the retirement ages in public schemes. Over the past few decades retirement ages in Europe have actually declined, even as life expectancy has soared. It is open to question whether workers with retirement now in their sights were really promised 30 years of leisure when they began their working life. If Europeans want to retain their public schemes—and most seem to want this—then it seems inevitable that they will have to work longer, probably at least five years, possibly as much as ten years longer. Employers, as well as workers, will have to adjust to this, but there are few good reasons why more healthy people in their 60s should not be holding down jobs, rather than sitting idle at younger taxpayers' expense.

Addressing the other half of the problem, the burden on younger workers in Europe, is just as necessary in the longer term, but an even more delicate task. Increasing immigration would be hugely controversial, but it makes good economic and social sense, and not only from the point of view of pensions, as this newspaper has often argued.

Even with more immigration, increasing the domestic supply of younger workers—ie, having more babies—could also be desirable and, if current trends continue, probably necessary. This sounds like the most pleasant of all remedies. But governments will have to tread warily here. Whether or not to have children is one of the most private of all decisions, and coercive social-engineering schemes should be repugnant to any liberal democracy. Nevertheless, the reason for plummeting birth rates in Europe may have something to do with the choice already forced on too many young women: start a career and put off childbearing until much later in life (which leads some to forgo it all together) or have children but miss out on the chance to compete in the workplace. Removing obstacles to women having children and pursuing a career simultaneously, through changes to the tax system and employment law, would not only help the next generation of young women and their children, but eventually their parents and grandparents as well.

[Lerkfish]

for some odd reason, its becoming clear you are intent on castigating the europeans. Now...why is that? Honest question.

[moki]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
for some odd reason, its becoming clear you are intent on castigating the europeans. Now...why is that? Honest question.

Nonsense. There are thousands of posts here concerning the US; should I label every non-American who posts anything about the US as intending to "castigate America"?

I think it is a legitimate and interesting issue to discuss, both in terms of global importance, and in terms of the US making moves towards a more comprehensive pension/healthcare system.

I've posted many topics on Japan and China as well, for the same reasons. Hopefully we're past the perceived bias, and can get on with discussing the issues here.

[Uday's Carcass]

maybe the europeans aren't reproducing because their ladies can't find real manly men. hahah. Splitting the date bill is probably a big turnoff. guess those tight french jeans and overemphasized sensitivity lowers the sperm count.

hah! Impotent pinkos.

[Face Ache]

Originally posted by Uday's Carcass:
maybe the europeans aren't reproducing because their ladies can't find real manly men. hahah. Splitting the date bill is probably a big turnoff. guess those tight french jeans and overemphasized sensitivity lowers the sperm count.

hah! Impotent pinkos.

Are you taking your medication?

[Nicko]

Originally posted by Face Ache:
Are you taking your medication?

My guess is he either took too much or not enough.

[pooka]

Originally posted by Nicko:
My guess is he either took too much or not enough.

I'll fess up. I've been jackin' his **** because we don't have a nationalized prescription drug plan here.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
for some odd reason, its becoming clear you are intent on castigating the europeans. Now...why is that? Honest question.

I'm not sure his intent is to "castigate" the Europeans.

However, given that Europe seems to be almost deified nowadays for its practices and principles, perhaps some bias for the other side is called for. There is no such thing as an unbiased reporter or observer. Given that, getting many different biases, in different directions and to different degrees, is the next best thing. That way, at least people can think for themselves, given some modicum of understanding of what others have had to say on the issue.

[beni]

However, given that Europe seems to be almost deified nowadays for its practices and principles, perhaps some bias for the other side is called for.

Ok, first of all, please realize that Europe is NOT a country.

Print a copy of the following list, and keep it in your wallet.
When you wish to make statements about politics, principles or practices, please pick one.

Albania
Andorra
Austria
Belarus
Belgium
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Bulgaria
Croatia
Cyprus
Czech Republic
Denmark
Estonia
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Iceland
Ireland
Italy
Latvia
Liechtenstein
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Macedonia
Malta
Moldova
Monaco
Netherlands
Norway
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Russia
San Marino
Serbia and Montenegro
Slovakia
Slovenia
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
Ukraine
United Kingdom
Vatican City

Isle of Man.
Jersey.
Guernsey.
Gibraltar.

[Logic]

Beni:

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Millennium:
I'm not sure his intent is to "castigate" the Europeans.

However, given that Europe seems to be almost deified nowadays for its practices and principles, perhaps some bias for the other side is called for. There is no such thing as an unbiased reporter or observer. Given that, getting many different biases, in different directions and to different degrees, is the next best thing. That way, at least people can think for themselves, given some modicum of understanding of what others have had to say on the issue.

actually, I'm going for the second definition of castigate: To criticize severely. Certainly, I am correct to characterize Moki in that way.
Even you are saying the same thing: that he is a voice of sever criticism. And thats...ok, I just don't understand where it is coming from.
He appears to have a high percentage of started threads with that intent.
Just as you could say I have a high percentage of threads that castigate Bush. However, its pretty clear why *I* do that. Its just not as clear to me why Moki does as he does. I was getting at exactly why he has that bias. Was there some incident or particular experience/philosophy that led to that bias?

[Millennium]

Originally posted by beni:
Ok, first of all, please realize that Europe is NOT a country.

Print a copy of the following list, and keep it in your wallet.
When you wish to make statements about politics, principles or practices, please pick one.
[list snipped]

Forgive my poor word choice. I meant to say "the European Union and its member nations, particularly France and Germany". However,l that wouldn't be entirely accurate either, because many non-EU nations in Europe seem to follow -or aspire to follow- the EU's basic principles.

It should also be noted that with the repeated power-grabs by the EU, Europe is starting to increasingly resemble a single nation, rather than a "firm league of friendship and cooperation" (the term being taken not from anything the EU has done, but from another, older grouping of independent states which attempted the same thing; the name of that group is left as an exercise to the reader). The progress towards this state of affairs is slow, but it's definitely there.

[Sven G]

Originally posted by Millennium:
[...] Europe is starting to increasingly resemble a single nation, rather than a "firm league of friendship and cooperation" [...]

... Which should really be avoided: the EU as a centralised "super-nation" (see the "euro-bureaucracy" in Bruxelles, for example) is a horrible scenario, IMHO!

What we probably most need (or, rather, would be more appropriate, not only for human, but also for historical reasons), in these times, is a decentralised EU based on independent, federated, and collaborating regional governments (possibly based on a bottom-up approach).

Europe really has never been a monolithic entity (see the ex USSR), or a semi-monolithic one (see the USA) - rather, it has been much more similar to the German model of semi-federated regional/city "states" (I say "semi-", because it still isn't true federalism, as the state still has quite a lot of power).

[theolein]

Hi Moki, you really are on roll again, hey!

Third thread in one week on exactly the same topic: Europe is <fill in some vague reference to impending European doom here>. Translated from Ambrosia speak into plain English, this means:"I am so hurt in my patriotic feelings because the Europeans don't do what we want them to, and I'm just not going to take it anymore".

You know Moki, I pointed this out in my last reply to your last "Europe is gonna die" thread. The differences between Europe and the USA are smaller than you think. Your long and woeful posting about the EU's plan to single out Ambrosia for tax purposes is an example. Just last week, a number of states in the US introduced legislation proposals to enforce sales tax in their jurisdictions in the US. If New York were to push a bill like this through, where would that leave your argument?

Likewise you make a habit of trying to point out weaknesses in the "European" economy, knowing full well that every European country has it's own legislation on pensions, and that it's not something governed by those "evil pinko leftists" in the EU. When this fails to illicit the response you want (I would love to know what this is, a tax rebate from the EU perhaps?) you push your theory from another angle, the idea that Europe will collapse due to decreasing population and increasing ageing. You point, with a heart bursting with patriotic pride, to the US' increasing population. I think you probably know that Europe is much smaller in area than the US and has a much larger population in that area, since you've been to Europe. Massive immigration, your proposed solution, will only present more of a problem, and will not solve anything in the long run. It will only make anti-immigrant sentiment worse (more on this later) and add to the overburdened pension schemes in the long run. Added to this, your quote from the Economist is not exactly 100% correct, because certain countries, most notably France have actually had minor baby booms in the last couple of years ( Ref BBC ).

I wonder what your actual, as opposed to your stated motivation for this string of posts on Europe is. I have this feeling that it has to do with your trying to push the idea that ALL of Europe is fundamentally flawed and that only the US system is viable.

I hate to break it to you: No system is perfect. Europe DOES have problems, some of them quite bad. And, BREAKING NEWS, so does the US. The US apparently has 40% uninsured working adults, due to spirally costs, and poverty is increasing. Now, how would you feel if I or someone else were to post this same nonsensical item three times a week?

It's BS, and only serves to inflame the Euro-US argumentation, yet again, as if there hasn't been enough of that.

Your anti-European stance does not help you in your argumentation that these same countries which you obviously despise, should be paying for the mess in Iraq for example.

Enough, already, ok?

[theolein]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Forgive my poor word choice. I meant to say "the European Union and its member nations, particularly France and Germany". However,l that wouldn't be entirely accurate either, because many non-EU nations in Europe seem to follow -or aspire to follow- the EU's basic principles.

It should also be noted that with the repeated power-grabs by the EU, Europe is starting to increasingly resemble a single nation, rather than a "firm league of friendship and cooperation" (the term being taken not from anything the EU has done, but from another, older grouping of independent states which attempted the same thing; the name of that group is left as an exercise to the reader). The progress towards this state of affairs is slow, but it's definitely there.

Your post at least makes some sort of sense, as opposed to Moki's vague "post and run" approach. You are dead right and you will find that the majority of all those millions of Europeans will agree with you, that the EU is bureacratic mess, with a bunch of non accountable politicians making decisions on the future of Europe without any confirmation by the general populace. I'm not referring to common legislation here, because the European parliment is an elected body, but to the group that has written the new European constitution. Almost nobody wants it in its present form. It has, however, to be ratified by the European parliment, and it is by no means decided that it will pass. BUt it definitely is worrying, there's no doubt about that.

Your vague reference to the "firm league of friendship and cooperation" meaning the either the Warsaw Pact, the Soviet Union, various Communist country pacts or the 13 states of the Confederation in the American civil war was a bit stupid, if I may say so, as Europe is not some sort of monolithic bloc rubber stamping some governments decisions. The enlightening thing about your quote is that I've seen many Americans make the same sort of reference on numerous occaissions, and is an insight into American prejudices (as opposed to European prejudices, because they certainly do exist here as well). There seem to be many Americans who feel fear of the EU, with very vague notions that the EU is some sort of rebirth of the Soviet Union, and that everything here is state owned and controlled. I don't have the time or the patience to explain in depth that there are in fact people here in Europe who run their own businesses, just as that wonder of nature exists in the US, and that the European charter of human rights guarantees much of what your constitution does. I'll just have to leave it at that.

FWIW: I saw a rerun of "Red Dawn" last night, a movie from 1984 (prime time Reaganite years) of a Soviet/Cuban invasion of the US and American resistance. It was hilarious. All of the Red Menace cold war fears and desertion of European Nato allies packed into one movie. Perhaps we should recommend it as required watching for our studies on current affairs, no?

[Spliffdaddy]

Two posts in an effort to minimize the damage done to the credibility of the so-called European Union?

Looks like moki offered-up a direct hit.

[beni]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Two posts in an effort to minimize the damage done to the credibility of the so-called European Union?

Looks like moki offered-up a direct hit.

[theolein]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Two posts in an effort to minimize the damage done to the credibility of the so-called European Union?

Looks like moki offered-up a direct hit.

You know, just out of interest, I would like to know why you hate Europe so much? I really wonder what Europe has done to make you feel so strongly about this "issue"? I simply don't understand this perenial hatred. It reminds me of the anti_US_for_any_reason crowd on this board that will make attacks on the US for no reason that I can rationally follow.

I'm being serious here. I'm not trying to bait you or something. I would like to know your considered reasons for your dislike. Please don't post a simple one-liner. It may give you some form of putdown superiority, but it doesn't help one to understand why you feel the way you do.

[Developer]

Originally posted by theolein:
You know, just out of interest, I would like to know why you hate Europe so much? I really wonder what Europe has done to make you feel so strongly about this "issue"?

Did you miss that? Moki now has to collect sales tax for his European customers. That apparently pissed him off a great deal.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Developer:
Did you miss that? Moki now has to collect sales tax for his European customers. That apparently pissed him off a great deal.

ahh..now see? this is all I wanted with my honest question. I could tell SOMETHING had cheesed Moki off. Thanks for identifying it for me.

[BlackGriffen]

theo:

I believe that Millenium was referring to pre-Constitutional US under the Articles of Confederation.

BG

[thunderous_funker]

Yes. I'm sure all those Europeans working 35 hour weeks, enjoying months of paid leave, full medical benefits and a cushy pensions are eyeing Americans with envy. Everyone wants to be working longer for less money and benefits than any industrialized nation on earth like Americans.

[shmerek]

Originally posted by theolein:
You know, just out of interest, I would like to know why you hate Europe so much? I really wonder what Europe has done to make you feel so strongly about this "issue"? I simply don't understand this perenial hatred. It reminds me of the anti_US_for_any_reason crowd on this board that will make attacks on the US for no reason that I can rationally follow.

I'm being serious here. I'm not trying to bait you or something. I would like to know your considered reasons for your dislike. Please don't post a simple one-liner. It may give you some form of putdown superiority, but it doesn't help one to understand why you feel the way you do.

Honestly I believe he is just ignorant.

[theolein]

Originally posted by BlackGriffen:
theo:

I believe that Millenium was referring to pre-Constitutional US under the Articles of Confederation.

BG

I did a quick search in Google for his terms and came with a host of replies, most referring to Communist countries mutual relations as well as the warsaw pact and the Confederate states. I had no idea what his idea was, though. Was he trying to pass Europe off as some remenant of the Soviet bloc or was he trying to equate Europe with the American Confederation? If so what was the point? If Europe become a "United States of Europe" so be it. The various states of the USA became the USA, didn't they? Why all this fear I ask, because I really don't see much point in it.

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by beni:
Albania
Andorra
Austria
Belarus
Belgium
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Bulgaria
Croatia
Cyprus
Czech Republic
Denmark
Estonia
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Iceland
Ireland
Italy
Latvia
Liechtenstein
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Macedonia
Malta
Moldova
Monaco
Netherlands
Norway
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Russia
San Marino
Serbia and Montenegro
Slovakia
Slovenia
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
Ukraine
United Kingdom
Vatican City

Isle of Man.
Jersey.
Guernsey.
Gibraltar.

(hey, if the Vatican made it into the list!)

[beni]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
Isle of Man.
Jersey.
Guernsey.
Gibraltar.

(hey, if the Vatican made it into the list!)

Sorry about that

[moki]

Originally posted by beni:
Ok, first of all, please realize that Europe is NOT a country.

For now, this is true.

It clearly is the intention of some federalists to have a one-Europe country, but from the looks of things, it'll be years off, given all of the in-fighting that's going on now in the EU, if it happens at all.

[moki]

Originally posted by theolein:
You know, just out of interest, I would like to know why you hate Europe so much? I really wonder what Europe has done to make you feel so strongly about this "issue"? I simply don't understand this perenial hatred. It reminds me of the anti_US_for_any_reason crowd on this board that will make attacks on the US for no reason that I can rationally follow.

I know you weren't writing that to me, but I'll address it. I love many things about Europe, most of all being the friends I have in many disparate countries. I just returned from Oktoberfest in Munich, and it was wonderful.

I disagree on philosophical grounds with the majority sentiment in much of Europe concerning governmental ideology, foreign policy, and what I perceive to be a double-standard that America is held to.

Other than that, I really could care less. I hope the EU does get past their squabbling to become a "United States of Europe" because the world really does need more than the US as the engine of the world economy (the US accounted for 3/5ths of the world's GDP growth over the last 8 years, which is ridiculous). I also hope Japan pulls out of the slump it is -- a world lead by the three engines of the US, Japan, and Europe would be far healthier than the way it is today.

(Yes, China may factor in too, in a big way, but it remains to be seen if they can manage the expansion in a controlled and measured way)

[Nicko]

Originally posted by moki:
I know you weren't writing that to me, but I'll address it. I love many things about Europe, most of all being the friends I have in many disparate countries. I just returned from Oktoberfest in Munich, and it was wonderful.

I disagree on philosophical grounds with the majority sentiment in much of Europe concerning governmental ideology, foreign policy, and what I perceive to be a double-standard that America is held to.

Other than that, I really could care less. I hope the EU does get past their squabbling to become a "United States of Europe" because the world really does need more than the US as the engine of the world economy (the US accounted for 3/5ths of the world's GDP growth over the last 8 years, which is ridiculous). I also hope Japan pulls out of the slump it is -- a world lead by the three engines of the US, Japan, and Europe would be far healthier than the way it is today.

(Yes, China may factor in too, in a big way, but it remains to be seen if they can manage the expansion in a controlled and measured way)

And my hope is that the US stops its senseless warmongering. We all have our dreams.

And hey, mb the US will gradually become more enlightened and become more like europe.

[Developer]

Originally posted by moki:
I disagree on philosophical grounds with the majority sentiment in much of Europe concerning governmental ideology, foreign policy, and what I perceive to be a double-standard that America is held to.

Philosophical grounds of European governmental ideology?! You are aware that Europe consists of dozens of countries whose governments change every 4 or 5 years. What philosophical grounds are you talking about? Enlightenment?

Maybe you should post about what you perceive as these despicable European philosophical grounds or double standards, so that we can talk about your misconceptions here, instead of posting such nonsense threads like this "work longer, have more babies".

[Nicko]

Originally posted by Developer:
Philosophical grounds of European governmental ideology?! You are aware that Europe consists of dozens of countries whose governments change every 4 or 5 years. What philosophical grounds are you talking about? Enlightenment?

Maybe you should post about what you perceive as these despicable European philosophical grounds or double standards, so that we can talk about your misconceptions here, instead of posting such nonsense threads like this "work longer, have more babies".

mb he thinks free healthcare and education systems are evil? :shrug:

[theolein]

Originally posted by moki:
I know you weren't writing that to me, but I'll address it. I love many things about Europe, most of all being the friends I have in many disparate countries. I just returned from Oktoberfest in Munich, and it was wonderful.

I disagree on philosophical grounds with the majority sentiment in much of Europe concerning governmental ideology, foreign policy, and what I perceive to be a double-standard that America is held to.

Other than that, I really could care less. I hope the EU does get past their squabbling to become a "United States of Europe" because the world really does need more than the US as the engine of the world economy (the US accounted for 3/5ths of the world's GDP growth over the last 8 years, which is ridiculous). I also hope Japan pulls out of the slump it is -- a world lead by the three engines of the US, Japan, and Europe would be far healthier than the way it is today.

(Yes, China may factor in too, in a big way, but it remains to be seen if they can manage the expansion in a controlled and measured way)

Good that you finally addressed that point. I was wondering what your reason was for the string of Euro-crtical posts were this last week.

As for "Europe" holding the US to double-standards, I have some trouble understanding exactly what double standards those are, because if you mean what I think you mean, then I think you're having a small bit of double standard yourself.

I hereby challenge you to explain what you mean by govermental philosophy and double standards, given that I pointed out that your example of medical care in Holland was skewed at best.

[Troll]

Originally posted by moki:
Other than that, I really could care less.

This is one of my pet hates. Forgive me, but I think you mean that you really could NOT care less.

[christ]

Originally posted by moki:
...I just returned from Oktoberfest in Munich...

So by 'Europe' you mean 'Germany' (or, more likely, 'Bavaria').

You do realise that the German view of militarism is slightly skewed by their history, don't you? And their economy, and their philosophy, was heavily influenced by the occupying powers (including the US) in the post-WWII period?

In the US the philosophy is 'I can afford ..., if you can't then you should work harder'. In Europe, the philosophy tends to be 'We can afford to help each other, and so we will'.

In Europe we are generally therefore prepared to work hard (and have more babies) to improve the general standard of living, while in the US you appear to to only be prepared to work hard to help yourself. Your call, but I prefer our way.

[Troll]

Originally posted by christ:
In Europe, the philosophy tends to be 'We can afford to help each other, and so we will'.

In Europe we are generally therefore prepared to work hard (and have more babies) to improve the general standard of living, while in the US you appear to to only be prepared to work hard to help yourself. Your call, but I prefer our way.

[beni]

Originally posted by Developer:
Philosophical grounds of European governmental ideology?! You are aware that Europe consists of dozens of countries whose governments change every 4 or 5 years. What philosophical grounds are you talking about? Enlightenment?

Maybe you should post about what you perceive as these despicable European philosophical grounds or double standards, so that we can talk about your misconceptions here, instead of posting such nonsense threads like this "work longer, have more babies".

Exactly!

[beni]

Originally posted by moki:
I love many things about Europe, most of all being the friends I have in many disparate countries. I just returned from Oktoberfest in Munich, and it was wonderful.

I went to Brazil for the Carneval. Loved it! How do you guys in America get anything done when you party like that all the time?

[sanity assassin]

The great thing about Europe is the diverse cultures, and I see quiet a bit of ignorance in some respects in this thread. Even if we had a super-nation (wouldn't that be something to take on the US with), our cultures are all very unique, and a true treat for anyone who wants to sample, and travel throughout Europe.

[theolein]

Originally posted by beni:
I went to Brazil for the Carneval. Loved it! How do you guys in America get anything done when you party like that all the time?

Point.
Well.
Made.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by sanity assassin:
The great thing about Europe is the diverse cultures, and I see quiet a bit of ignorance in some respects in this thread. Even if we had a super-nation (wouldn't that be something to take on the US with), our cultures are all very unique, and a true treat for anyone who wants to sample, and travel throughout Europe.

OT, but I think this is true of the US as well, due to its origins and the vast geography.
I think moki and others make the same mistake some europeans make, that their anecdotal experience or the impressions they get from the present administration or selected stories represent the whole of the US culture and attitudes.

Perhaps we can just change our perceptions a little, on both sides, and realize that the cultural diversity and variance in attitudes concerning how government should work is a rather well-populated bell curve, and that we should not presume that the extremes at either end of the bell are representative of the whole.

Even in civilisations which are virtually ethnically singular, there still exists a variance of attitude and culture so that coherence of thought is unachievable (even if it were desirable).
Therefore, even though it pleases us on one level to assume certain countries or continents are solid like a potato, they are instead a casserole.

[Troll]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
OT, but I think this is true of the US as well, due to its origins and the vast geography.

Agreed. I recently did NY and LA in a 4 day stretch. I think those two cities aren't the most disparate of American cities yet the cultures are quite different. But for the fact that the language is the same, it might as well have been London and Madrid. And even within each US city, there are various sub-cultures (although European cities have that too).

Still, I think the diversity is more extreme in Europe. Compare a typical Sardinian with a typical Finn or and English person with a Croat. The US doesn't have that level of diversity on the same scale and I think this does have an impact on Europeans' view of the world.

I agree though, at the base people are just people. It's the leaders that deserve our criticism more than anyone else and I think some people battle to separate criticism of a leader from criticism of a people.

[Troll]

oooppppss. database error. double post. sorry

[christ]

Originally posted by Troll:
...Still, I think the diversity is more extreme in Europe...

Yes, but not a lot - compare e.g. (from my experience) Laredo, Miami, somewhere in Pennsylvania Dutch country, somewhere in West Virginia, somewhere in up country Vermont and various parts of DC, and each time you could be in a different country, with different cultures, histories, and even languages.

[theolein]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
OT, but I think this is true of the US as well, due to its origins and the vast geography.
I think moki and others make the same mistake some europeans make, that their anecdotal experience or the impressions they get from the present administration or selected stories represent the whole of the US culture and attitudes.

Perhaps we can just change our perceptions a little, on both sides, and realize that the cultural diversity and variance in attitudes concerning how government should work is a rather well-populated bell curve, and that we should not presume that the extremes at either end of the bell are representative of the whole.

Even in civilisations which are virtually ethnically singular, there still exists a variance of attitude and culture so that coherence of thought is unachievable (even if it were desirable).
Therefore, even though it pleases us on one level to assume certain countries or continents are solid like a potato, they are instead a casserole.

Good post! I remember the fights that you and I had on this point, until I realised that the way I was posting (with too little explicit differentiation) was what was upsetting you. I think most people have a set of prejudices, based on their (lack of) knowledge of a culture and form their opinions at that point.

I thinks it's good to point out the not all Americans are GW, and that not all Europeans are socialist commies.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by theolein:


Good post! I remember the fights that you and I had on this point, until I realised that the way I was posting (with too little explicit differentiation) was what was upsetting you. I think most people have a set of prejudices, based on their (lack of) knowledge of a culture and form their opinions at that point.

I thinks it's good to point out the not all Americans are GW, and that not all Europeans are socialist commies.

yes, at least from my end, those fights we had were stemming from my impression that you were viewing the US as a potato instead of a casserole, of extending the character of GW onto a larger group than was proper.
(again, my impression could have been wrong)

[voodoo]

Well I'm glad we're all friends now!

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Well I'm glad we're all friends now!

well, at least we agree on some key issues...but we always did. I just didn't like the WAY some people were arguing to make their points. To be fair, I'm sure I was less than stellar in that department myself.

I DO try more now to avoid ad hominem when possible. Being human, I do not always avoid it sucessfully.

but this is way off topic, sorry.

[AutoJC]

North Korea- Work longer, eat more babies.

[moki]

Originally posted by Developer:
Philosophical grounds of European governmental ideology?! You are aware that Europe consists of dozens of countries whose governments change every 4 or 5 years. What philosophical grounds are you talking about? Enlightenment?

Yes, I'm quite aware of how many countries there are in Europe, and how often various administrations (can) change.

That doesn't change that Europe is, as a whole, more liberal than in the US.

Maybe you should post about what you perceive as these despicable European philosophical grounds or double standards, so that we can talk about your misconceptions here, instead of posting such nonsense threads like this "work longer, have more babies".

I don't have any misconceptions; I'm aware there is diversity of thought in any mass of people. However, as a whole, I'm correct. There is a different attitude in Europe than in much (but not all) of America, on a great number of issues.

As for "posting nonsense threads" -- did you actually read the article? It's a well-researched piece from a respected publication, and it is not nonsense, it is accurate.

[moki]

Your anti-European stance does not help you in your argumentation that these same countries which you obviously despise, should be paying for the mess in Iraq for example.

Nonsense. Apply the same standard you're applying to me, and you'd have to call yourself anti-American.

I mean seriously, get over it. It's an issue worth discussing, an issue that is looming _huge_ in many countries in Europe, and there is no malice at all intended when I bring it up for discussion.

I have posted topics on Canada, China, Taiwan, Japan, and other countries as well. Am I anti-"all of these" countries too?

Amazing how touchy people are -- I suppose The Economist is Anti-European too, because every single issue of it for the past 6 months has had article on Europe's pension woes.

Can we discuss the issues now, or are you still having fun with character assassination, and ascribing malicious motives to others where they do not exist?