[eklipse]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Sto...060428,00.html

Six Palestinians, including an eight-year-old boy, were today killed in the largest Israeli raid on the Rafah refugee camp for six months.

Armoured vehicles and attack helicopters swept into the camp, which is on Gaza's border with Egypt, in an attempted to search out alleged weapons-smuggling tunnels.

The Israelis positioned snipers on rooftops and fired a tank shell at an electricity transformer, plunging the camp into darkness.

.....

Most of the casualties were caused when a helicopter fired a missile at a crowd, witnesses said. The Israeli military said that the missile had targeted a group of gunmen.

One of the dead was decapitated, and an Israeli soldier was also lightly wounded in the fighting.

Dr Ali Mousa, director of Rafah's small Najar hospital, said that women and children were among the wounded. Two of the dead were identified as members of militant groups, and at least two others were civilians.

Yeah.....those electricity transformers have a disturbing habit of detonating themselves on Israeli buses......

[Uday's Carcass]

it's unfortunate, and if it was a deliberate attack with the objectice of inciting fear or killing innocents, then it is terrorism. however, if it was to take down terrorists and gunment who happened to be using the refugees as shields and cover, then it's just collateral damage in an ongoing war.

[macvillage.net]

This is something a good sniper could have done without even causing public alarm.

They could have cut power, rather than destroy a transformer.

It's clear terrorism as there is an intent to harm civilians.

[Spliffdaddy]

Strangely, the finer points of Israel's raids must be discussed prior to their condemnation - in order to reaffirm that they do indeed meet the standards of terrorism.

When the so-called Palestinians blow up a bus full of Israeli women and children - no discussion is necessary.


"Let's see how the IDF raid compares to real Palestinian-led terrorism."

[DBursey]

To be fair, militants who attack Israeli civilian targets are no more representative of the average Palestinian than Israeli terrorists recently convicted of attempting a mass slaughter of Arab schoolgirls are of the average Israeli. Should those Israelis be held as representative of their community?

How much credibility can be afforded Israeli demands that the P.A. arrest militants when Israeli forces have systematically degraded the P.A.'s very ability to do so?

[Joshua]

Dr Ali Mousa, director of Rafah's small Najar hospital, said that women and children were among the wounded. Two of the dead were identified as members of militant groups, and at least two others were civilians.

...

Israeli military officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Israel had intelligence warnings that Palestinians were planning to use the tunnels to smuggle in anti-aircraft missiles - weapons that could have a strategic impact on the three-year long conflict.

They said that Palestinians were trying to obtain shoulder-held Stinger missiles that could shoot down the attack helicopters often used by Israel in Gaza. The missiles could also threaten Israeli warplanes or civilian aircraft flying close to the coastal strip.

Also, the officials said, the Palestinians were trying to smuggle Katyusha rockets, which would have the range to hit Israeli cities near Gaza.

The actions of the the Israeli army may be negligent and reckless, but there's an obvious qualitative difference between the attacks listed in this article and the terrorism committed by the Palestinian militant groups.

This insistence on equating Israeli actions targeted at militant forces with the bombing of civilian night clubs and buses is incredibly narrow minded and, in my opinion, is detrimental to any serious international effort to promote peace in the region.

[Uday's Carcass]

Originally posted by Joshua:
The actions of the the Israeli army may be negligent and reckless, but there's an obvious qualitative difference between the attacks listed in this article and the terrorism committed by the Palestinian militant groups.

This insistence on equating Israeli actions targeted at militant forces with the bombing of civilian night clubs and buses is incredibly narrow minded and, in my opinion, is detrimental to any serious international effort to promote peace in the region.

exactly.

[Logic]

Originally posted by Joshua:
The actions of the the Israeli army may be negligent and reckless, but there's an obvious qualitative difference between the attacks listed in this article and the terrorism committed by the Palestinian militant groups.

This insistence on equating Israeli actions targeted at militant forces with the bombing of civilian night clubs and buses is incredibly narrow minded and, in my opinion, is detrimental to any serious international effort to promote peace in the region.

So there are different levels of terrorism? Who draws the line to decide what is terrorism and what is not?

[Uday's Carcass]

Originally posted by Logic:
So there are different levels of terrorism?

terrorism is terrorism, and it varies in severity (e.g., the body count)

Who draws the line to decide what is terrorism and what is not?

I do. Being the burning-in-Hell carcass of an infamous murder, torturer, rapist, and terrorist to the Iraqi people, I have a unique perspective on things.

[Troll]

Originally posted by Joshua:
This insistence on equating Israeli actions targeted at militant forces with the bombing of civilian night clubs and buses is incredibly narrow minded and, in my opinion, is detrimental to any serious international effort to promote peace in the region.

I think it's the *commission* of terrorism by both sides that is preventing peace in the region. If they stopped that, there'd be peace.

I don't see how us, or anyone else for that matter, equating Israel's actions with anything has any effect on peace. Taking sides in this doesn't get us anywhere and that is what is you are doing by claiming that Israel's terrorism is of a higher quality than Palestinians.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Strangely, the finer points of Israel's raids must be discussed prior to their condemnation - in order to reaffirm that they do indeed meet the standards of terrorism.

When the so-called Palestinians blow up a bus full of Israeli women and children - no discussion is necessary.


"Let's see how the IDF raid compares to real Palestinian-led terrorism."

This isn't even discussed in a global scale... only here because several indiduals believe that if an attack on civilians is done using state funds... it's OK. Others believe that because it's a Jewish state, it can make no wrong.

Normal groups, including the UN don't need this discussion. It's assumed that any attacks on innocent civilians is terrorism. Regardless of who, and where the funding comes from.

Why people like Spiff and Uday's Carcass continue to think that killing innocent civilians with tax dollars is ok... is a bit beyond me.

[petehammer]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
Why people like Spiff and Uday's Carcass continue to think that killing innocent civilians with tax dollars is ok... is a bit beyond me.

Hell, you can leave off the "with tax dollars" part. Why is it okay for Israel to kill civilians? Is that truly "defense"?

[Uday's Carcass]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
Why people like Spiff and Uday's Carcass continue to think that killing innocent civilians with tax dollars is ok... is a bit beyond me.

I've never said it's okay. It's not. But civilians get killed in war; it's unavoidable and tragic. So is Hamas blowing up women and little babies.

[nonhuman]

Civilians who are killed in "collateral damage" as part of a military attack are just as dead and just as undeservingly as civilians who are killed as the main target of a terrorist attack.

In both cases the innocents deaths are completely reprehensible. You could even say that the military attack is worse because the civilians were killed out of carelessness or simple apathy. At least in the terrorist attack they were killed intentionally (not that terrorist attacks are therefore justified).

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by Uday's Carcass:
I've never said it's okay. It's not. But civilians get killed in war; it's unavoidable and tragic. So is Hamas blowing up women and little babies.

Only accidents are unavoidable.

Intentionally making mistakes isn't a mistake.

Israel blows up just as many women and babies.

It's a sad fact.

[sanity assassin]

Since it's a war, then I would think most people would agree that Hamas targeting a bus full of soldiers is fair game, any civilians getting injured, or killed, is, well, just collateral damage.

All this stuff works both ways.

[Uday's Carcass]

Originally posted by sanity assassin:
Since it's a war, then I would think most people would agree that Hamas targeting a bus full of soldiers is fair game, any civilians getting injured, or killed, is, well, just collateral damage.

All this stuff works both ways.

you miserably fail to understand the difference. Collateral damage occurs when you're going for a military target and civilians are in the way. Hamas, on the other hand, rarely aims for military targets and pursues soft civilian ones. That isn't collateral damage, that's terrorism and murder.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by Uday's Carcass:
you miserably fail to understand the difference. Collateral damage occurs when you're going for a military target and civilians are in the way. Hamas, on the other hand, rarely aims for military targets and pursues soft civilian ones. That isn't collateral damage, that's terrorism and murder.

So if Hamas lied and said they intended to get military targets...

Then it's all justified.

Thanks for the clarification Uday.

[Uday's Carcass]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
So if Hamas lied and said they intended to get military targets...

Then it's all justified.

Thanks for the clarification Uday.

You are the one who needs constant clarification and correction, Robert. There's nothing military about blowing up women and babies at bus stops, cafes, or night clubs.

Get real.

[Spliffdaddy]

Just as I thought.

Nobody was able to justify the terrorist actions against Israel.

Scroll up and read for yourself.

Nobody is pro-Palestine although many will claim to be. But you WILL find a bunch of people who hate Israel.

This is not the same thing as supporting the Palestinian cause. This is simply a case of the enemy of the enemy being their friend.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Just as I thought.

Nobody was able to justify the terrorist actions against Israel.

Scroll up and read for yourself.

Nobody is pro-Palestine although many will claim to be. But you WILL find a bunch of people who hate Israel.

This is not the same thing as supporting the Palestinian cause. This is simply a case of the enemy of the enemy being their friend.

Actually. If you really read it, you will see there are many who are anti-israel/palestine.

Most people think (including myself) stringly believe that the world would be a much better place without these two terrorist-loving groups.


Israeli's are terrorists and babykillers.
Palestinians are terrorists and babykillers.


Yea. I'm supposed to pick one?

Get real Spiff. I'm still trying to understand how you can justify one terror group over another. IMHO terrorism is terrorism and should stop.

It's pretty sad you support and enjoy terrorism. Perhaps you may be the next target of a terror attack? You never know. Yet you still support.

Pretty sad.

[shmerek]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
So if Hamas lied and said they intended to get military targets...

Then it's all justified.

Thanks for the clarification Uday.

I guess one solider or reservist on the bus or in the cafe would make it a military. Israel does the same thing with a militant in a car or an apartment complex

[Spliffdaddy]

Wow.

The hatred of Israel runs deep in here.

[eklipse]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Wow.

The hatred of Israel runs deep in here.

Not without good reason.

[Spliffdaddy]

Well, post some reasons.

[eklipse]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Well, post some reasons.

Do a search.

[Spliffdaddy]

Alright. I did a search.

I didn't find any other reason to hate Israel except for the fact that the US supports Israel.

Would that be the correct answer?



edited:

If the US suddenly stopped funding Israel and directed those funds to the Palestinians - all the Israel-haters would change their tune and start hating Palestinians.

[eklipse]

: sigh :

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Alright. I did a search.

I didn't find any other reason to hate Israel except for the fact that the US supports Israel.

Would that be the correct answer?



edited:

If the US suddenly stopped funding Israel and directed those funds to the Palestinians - all the Israel-haters would change their tune and start hating Palestinians.

I think I can speak for most you are talking about on this one.

As I've said thousands of times before

My hatred of Israel lies with their governments use of terrorism. That's it.

Same with the Palestinian side. That's it.

The US funding is something I hate the US Government for doing. It's up to the US GOVERNMENT to stop it. Same for every other country giving money to *any* of these idiots to carry out their terrorism.


What pisses me off more than anything is how people justify this crap.

And how people lump everyone into 1 group.

All Jews hate Muslims.

All Palestinians want to kill Jews.

All people who don't support Israel's terrorism hate jews.

All people who don't support Hamas hate muslims.

It's getting old. Very old.

[AutoJC]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
This is something a good sniper could have done without even causing public alarm.

They could have cut power, rather than destroy a transformer.

It's clear terrorism as there is an intent to harm civilians.

Bullshit.

Uday's Carcass is right. The civilians are used as shields, especially in the terrorist camps.

Did I say "terrorist camp" instead of "refugee camp?" How politically incorrect of me!

Israel is going to do these strikes as long as the suicide bombers blow up buses and cafes. It's called "defending your country."

[AutoJC]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
I think I can speak for most you are talking about on this one.

As I've said thousands of times before

My hatred of Israel lies with their governments use of terrorism. That's it.

Same with the Palestinian side. That's it.

The US funding is something I hate the US Government for doing. It's up to the US GOVERNMENT to stop it. Same for every other country giving money to *any* of these idiots to carry out their terrorism.


What pisses me off more than anything is how people justify this crap.

And how people lump everyone into 1 group.

All Jews hate Muslims.

All Palestinians want to kill Jews.

All people who don't support Israel's terrorism hate jews.

All people who don't support Hamas hate muslims.

It's getting old. Very old.

Not old enough.

The only Jewish-based terrorist organization was run by the late Meier Kahane.

Your lack of moral resolve in calling the Israelis and Palestinians moral equivanents is getting old.

[AutoJC]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
So if Hamas lied and said they intended to get military targets...

Then it's all justified.

Thanks for the clarification Uday.

Hamas justified for lying? Huh?

[eklipse]

Originally posted by AutoJC:
The only Jewish-based terrorist organization was run by the late Meier Kahane.

Incorrect, the Israeli government is a Jewish-based terrorist organization run by the bloated Ariel Sharon.

[AutoJC]

Originally posted by Joshua:
The actions of the the Israeli army may be negligent and reckless, but there's an obvious qualitative difference between the attacks listed in this article and the terrorism committed by the Palestinian militant groups.

This insistence on equating Israeli actions targeted at militant forces with the bombing of civilian night clubs and buses is incredibly narrow minded and, in my opinion, is detrimental to any serious international effort to promote peace in the region.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by AutoJC:
Not old enough.

The only Jewish-based terrorist organization was run by the late Meier Kahane.

Your lack of moral resolve in calling the Israelis and Palestinians moral equivanents is getting old.

You forget about the Israeli Military.

Targeting Civilians is wrong.

That's the bottom line. Regardless of your methods. It's wrong.


The Israeli military is a bunch of baby killers just like Hamas. No better, no worse. They both deserve the same punishment.

Sadly, just innocent civilians on both sides will take the punishment.



Killing civilians is wrong.


Another thing that gets me is that my tax dollars are being used to kill civilians.

I deserve to get that money back from the Israeli government. If it was used for humanitarian purposes (feeding the elderly, housing the homeless), I could understand forign aid. But using it to harm civilians isn't right. Especially with my tax money. Use someone else's.

[Spliffdaddy]

The US Constitution doesn't mention 'feeding the elderly'. It DOES mention providing for the common defense.

Your tax dollars SHOULD be used for defense before they're squandered on feel-good social programs that communities and churches should be sponsoring.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
The US Constitution doesn't mention 'feeding the elderly'. It DOES mention providing for the common defense.

Your tax dollars SHOULD be used for defense before they're squandered on feel-good social programs that communities and churches should be sponsoring.

MY tax dollars should be used for COMMON GOOD.

Killing children isn't "common defense". In fact, giving money to a foreign government, isn't even defending America. It's put America at greater risk.

If you want to kill civilians, I will call Walmart for you and make sure the best gun expert is there to give you advice on your purchase. Fly out to the middleast, and kill all the civilians you want.

Just do it with your own money, not mine.

This cr@p is one of the major motives in 9/11. Your tax dollars killed 2k people... something you sound proud about.

Pretty sick dude. Pretty sick to be proud of that.

[Spliffdaddy]

*yawn*

I'm proud of the fact that my tax dollars were used to liberate an oppressed people - with little collateral damage.

Thankfully, our immense military budget allows for advanced weapons that get more accurate all the time.

A few decades earlier and the liberation would have come on the heels of a widescale bombing campaign - as opposed to the pinpoint precision of modern weapons.

A country the size and population of Iraq being liberated at the cost of a few thousand lives is utterly remarkable.

Nobody else in the world can do that.

I am proud. Very proud to be an American.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by eklipse:
Incorrect, the Israeli government is a Jewish-based terrorist organization run by the bloated Ariel Sharon.