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eklipse · Oct 12, 2003, 06:16 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3185704.stm

Up to 1,500 Palestinians have been left homeless by the Israeli army's two-day raid into the Rafah refugee camp, the United Nations estimates

........

"Many, many houses - maybe as many as 120 - have been completely demolished. They would have been the homes to 250, 300 families," said Peter Hansen, commissioner general of the UN Relief and Works Agency (Unrwa).

"And if you multiply that by the family structure you're talking about a great many people, as many as 1,500, have been made homeless.

........

"We could not escape. The house was like a jail for two days, but suddenly occupation forces entered our houses yesterday and told us to leave, " camp resident Ayman Abu Shannalah told the agency.

"I refused but then they threatened to kill me with machineguns so my wife and her mother took me outside. In 30 minutes our houses was as flat as the land."

If the shoe fits............

shmerek · Oct 12, 2003, 06:22 PM

macvillage.net · Oct 12, 2003, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by eklipse:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3185704.stm

If the shoe fits............

Great...

now we have to hear about how this is a good thing the Israeli's have done. "They freed the Palestinians to go back into th ewhild... " and so on.

Uday's Carcass · Oct 12, 2003, 07:17 PM

were these the homes of suicide bombers?
If so, then that's the legacy the bombers leave their families. Homelessness. Too bad. Lesson here: don't be suicide bombers.

macvillage.net · Oct 12, 2003, 08:04 PM

Originally posted by Uday's Carcass:
were these the homes of suicide bombers?
If so, then that's the legacy the bombers leave their families. Homelessness. Too bad. Lesson here: don't be suicide bombers.

Now why weren't the homes of Israeli Extremists destroyed, and the extremists killed?

They were given prison sentences after long trials that even made US news.

That would be dealing with terrorism. Something Israel didn't do.

einmakom · Oct 12, 2003, 10:35 PM

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
Now why weren't the homes of Israeli Extremists destroyed, and the extremists killed?

They were given prison sentences after long trials that even made US news.

That would be dealing with terrorism. Something Israel didn't do.

Incorrect. Look at the homes here:

http://www.hebron.com/news/givah26.htm

Satisfied?

In case you missed understanding that page, it is pictures of Israeli settlers homes destroyed, and an article written from the point of view that the IDF is terrorising settlers instead of stopping Palestinians from killing.

There's quite a bit that isn't always well reported, more on heaven and earth than dreamt of in your philosophy.

voodoo · Oct 13, 2003, 03:10 AM

On a tangent, in the article from hebron.com God is repeatedly referred to as G-d. What kind of disrespect is that? He is God, the One, the Eternal. The Alpha and Omega. He is not g dash d.

einmakom · Oct 13, 2003, 06:06 AM

Originally posted by voodoo:
On a tangent, in the article from hebron.com God is repeatedly referred to as G-d. What kind of disrespect is that? He is God, the One, the Eternal. The Alpha and Omega. He is not g dash d.

Jews do not write the name of G-d on anything that will be casually thrown away, discarded, or is not permanent.

Writing with a dash is a sign of greater respect, by preserving the written name for papers of permanence. An internet web page is certainly not permanent. It's on your screen one moment, and off the next.

voodoo · Oct 13, 2003, 06:53 AM

Originally posted by einmakom:
Jews do not write the name of G-d on anything that will be casually thrown away, discarded, or is not permanent.

Writing with a dash is a sign of greater respect, by preserving the written name for papers of permanence. An internet web page is certainly not permanent. It's on your screen one moment, and off the next.

His name is not God.

Troll · Oct 13, 2003, 07:27 AM

Originally posted by Uday's Carcass:
Lesson here: don't be suicide bombers.

That's terrorism right there. Even if those houses belonged to or were lived in by suicide bombers, the result of the action of demolition is that people who weren't suicide bombers (how could they be if they're still alive) are now homeless. It's implicit from your statement that you know what's going on here. The Israelis are try to teach the Palestinians a lesson - support suicide bombers in any way; by living in their homes, by being related to them and we will make you homeless. That is the act of using fear to attain political gains which is TERRORISM!

theolein · Oct 13, 2003, 07:45 AM

Originally posted by voodoo:
His name is not God.

Voodoo, I think you should lay off here. You respect Logic's right to be a muslim and his beliefs don't you? Well, one should accord the Jews those same rights I feel. In islam it is not permitted to paint the face of God or that of his prophet, and in Judaism it is not permitted to write the name of God, in any language. In Hebrew the name of God is not used, in any case. It is usually only indirectly described, as "the name" IIRC (einmakom can correct me here)

All this hatred between Israelis and Palestinians is sad and terrible, and in my view, both sides are guilty of not trying their hardest to find peace and always blaming the other side.

But don't we all...

voodoo · Oct 13, 2003, 07:55 AM

Originally posted by theolein:
Voodoo, I think you should lay off here. You respect Logic's right to be a muslim and his beliefs don't you? Well, one should accord the Jews those same rights I feel. In islam it is not permitted to paint the face of God or that of his prophet, and in Judaism it is not permitted to write the name of God, in any language. In Hebrew the name of God is not used, in any case. It is usually only indirectly described, as "the name" IIRC (einmakom can correct me here)

All this hatred between Israelis and Palestinians is sad and terrible, and in my view, both sides are guilty of not trying their hardest to find peace and always blaming the other side.

But don't we all...

What are you implying theloein?

Regardless His name is not God, He is God. It is an indirect description of Him. You shall not take God's name in vain is the only rule us Christians have to abide by. God is a word from norse that describes the norse gods Aesir. It was then imposed on the Christian God. In germanic languages the word god is still used for any god in any religion. Christians traditionally use a capital G when talking about God, because he is the One and Only God. Writing G-d to imply that is his name is just plain misunderstanding it mad zealotry. Either way it is wrong from lingual and religious respect. They could just as well call him Mr. X or something!

BTW: I am a devout Christian.

einmakom · Oct 13, 2003, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by voodoo:
What are you implying theloein?

Regardless His name is not God, He is God. It is an indirect description of Him. You shall not take God's name in vain is the only rule us Christians have to abide by. God is a word from norse that describes the norse gods Aesir. It was then imposed on the Christian God. In germanic languages the word god is still used for any god in any religion. Christians traditionally use a capital G when talking about God, because he is the One and Only God. Writing G-d to imply that is his name is just plain misunderstanding it mad zealotry. Either way it is wrong from lingual and religious respect. They could just as well call him Mr. X or something!

BTW: I am a devout Christian.

You are applying Christian understanding to a Jewish habit which has grown out of respect for G-d. Do you see that there's room for error there when you apply a Christian understanding to a Jewish practice?

Jews will use HaShem (The Name), Adonai (Lord), but these are never really spelled out in English as I have here.

When writing G-d (which gets used in modern English as G-d's name) we very carefully do not write it out, out of respect. This isn't zealotry, or misunderstanding.

It is simply an exhibition of reverence.

Why a practice of reverence bothers you so, I cannot fathom.

Uday's Carcass · Oct 13, 2003, 11:33 AM

Originally posted by voodoo:
On a tangent, in the article from hebron.com God is repeatedly referred to as G-d. What kind of disrespect is that? He is God, the One, the Eternal. The Alpha and Omega. He is not g dash d.

einmakon has it right. I'm not Jewish, but I am well-educated enough to know the reason for not writing out God. Additionally, when reading from text such as the Torah, you simply say 'Adonai' instead of the Lord's name, spelled yod-hey-vav-hey.

I pronounce you at least partially free from your ignorance, infidel! Spread your newfound knowledge among the unwashed masses.

Uday's Carcass · Oct 13, 2003, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by einmakom:
Why a practice of reverence bothers you so, I cannot fathom.

If you knew voodoodoo as I do, you'd understand.

Wiskedjak · Oct 13, 2003, 12:17 PM

Merriam-Webster
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...p;va=terrorism
ter�ror�ism
:the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion

Is not the destruction of the homes of those related to suicide bombers simply a form of terror used to coerce?

Uday's Carcass · Oct 13, 2003, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Is not the destruction of the homes of those related to suicide bombers simply a form of terror used to coerce?

punishing others for crimes could also be construed as terror to coerce others into not committing crimes.

You're really out on a limb here.

Wiskedjak · Oct 13, 2003, 12:35 PM

If you're talking about criminal prosecution, then you're wrong. Criminal prosecution takes place AFTER the crime has been committed. If the justice system were to punish people BEFORE committing a crime in order to coerce them NOT to commit a crime, then THAT would be considered terrorism.

Troll · Oct 13, 2003, 12:55 PM

Originally posted by Uday's Carcass:
punishing others for crimes could also be construed as terror to coerce others into not committing crimes.

So you agree that this is "terror" committed by Israel by it's *good* terrorism

I'm not going to bother asking what scale you're applying to judge the quality of terrorism!

thunderous_funker · Oct 13, 2003, 01:01 PM

Every time there is a homicide in a US city, we should bulldoze the homes of the criminal's family and neighbors. Maybe that will teach them to not support murderers.

macvillage.net · Oct 13, 2003, 04:04 PM

To sum up Uday's point.

Terrorism isn't bad... Terrorism is GREAT, if your on OUR side.

Uday's Carcass · Oct 13, 2003, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
To sum up Uday's point.

Terrorism isn't bad... Terrorism is GREAT, if your on OUR side.

no, robert. once again you beam in from your place in the clouds to misrepresent a point.

Homicide/suicide bombers are terrorists.
Bulldozing their homes--even if their family lives there--may deter some others from becoming suicide bombers. That is the whole point of doing it.

Troll · Oct 13, 2003, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by Uday's Carcass:
Homicide/suicide bombers are terrorists.
Bulldozing their homes--even if their family lives there--may deter some others from becoming suicide bombers. That is the whole point of doing it.

Blowing up a caf�--even if families may be there--may deter some from persecuting Palestinians. That is the whole point of doing it.

macvillage.net · Oct 13, 2003, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by Troll:
Blowing up a caf�--even if families may be there--may deter some from persecuting Palestinians. That is the whole point of doing it.

Exactly my point.

Uday. Your reasoning and justification is exactly the reasoning behind terrorism.

You yourself have just verified yourself that Israel is commiting acts of terrorism.

Uday's Carcass · Oct 13, 2003, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by Troll:
Blowing up a caf�--even if families may be there--may deter some from persecuting Palestinians. That is the whole point of doing it.

that's why it's a war down there. Everything is totally out of control. But certain groups exist to murder Jews, no matter if the Palestinians had their own state. Hamas an Islamic Jihad come to mind.

Terrorism isn't getting the Palestinian cause anywhere. What has Israel given up? What have Palestinians gotten? Nada. A big Zero. The Hamas et al murderers and terrorists that perpetrate these terrible acts against Israel's women and babies should be rejected by all Palestinians. Instead, they're blinded by propaganda and manipulation by the powerful--Arafat being a prime example.

voodoo · Oct 13, 2003, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by einmakom:
You are applying Christian understanding to a Jewish habit which has grown out of respect for G-d. Do you see that there's room for error there when you apply a Christian understanding to a Jewish practice?

Yes obviously.

I'd be surprised if the Jewish culture didn't view God a bit differently than Christian culture does. Also Jewish culture is not completely homogenous and I've seen many many Jews write God, not G-d. I've seen the latter a few times though and I was wondering about that. I tried to explain to you why I am puzzled, i.e. because of the etymology of the word "god".

You claim reverence and I am fine with that, but I think it is misplaced because the word god is not His, and its origin is completely heathen. I guess I have far more reverence for His Semitic name, than for the name the Heathens used for Him. I stress 'use', because never was it meant to be His name - only a replacement so you wouldn't use it in vain.

Good on you that you want to revere God and I applaud you for it. As for me I am all for writing God for then people will know who I am talking about. Spreading His word and knowledge of Him is an important part of being Christian. That is the way I show Him my respect. Even on semi permanent internet forums, for what is permanent anyway in the eyes of God the eternal One?

macvillage.net · Oct 13, 2003, 04:55 PM

Originally posted by Uday's Carcass:
that's why it's a war down there. Everything is totally out of control. But certain groups exist to murder Jews, no matter if the Palestinians had their own state. Hamas an Islamic Jihad come to mind.

Terrorism isn't getting the Palestinian cause anywhere. What has Israel given up? What have Palestinians gotten? Nada. A big Zero. The Hamas et al murderers and terrorists that perpetrate these terrible acts against Israel's women and babies should be rejected by all Palestinians. Instead, they're blinded by propaganda and manipulation by the powerful--Arafat being a prime example.

Exactly.

And what has Israel gotten through using terrorism?

Nothing. They blindly follow their leaders and do it, yet hate terrorism themselves.

That's been the point over the past 6 months!

shmerek · Oct 13, 2003, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
Exactly.

And what has Israel gotten through using terrorism?

Perpetuation of the cycle. You think they would have figured this out by now.

macvillage.net · Oct 13, 2003, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by shmerek:
Perpetuation of the cycle. You think they would have figured this out by now.

The world "Cycle" and "Circle" and other similar words have been used a million times.

And still some don't figure it out...

So no, I'm not suprised. That's why I'm of the honest belief that less people would die if this blew up into all out war.

shmerek · Oct 13, 2003, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
The world "Cycle" and "Circle" and other similar words have been used a million times.

And still some don't figure it out...

So no, I'm not suprised. That's why I'm of the honest belief that less people would die if this blew up into all out war.

If it turned into a full scale war with Sharon at the helm I am sure it would be a bloodbath.

macvillage.net · Oct 13, 2003, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by shmerek:
If it turned into a full scale war with Sharon at the helm I am sure it would be a bloodbath.

But it would be under a different pretense.

Right now, this is just recipricating hate crimes by respective minority groups against the majority on the opposing side.

If it went to full scale war for a very short period, before the UN steps in once and for all and requires a perminant solution, or intervention by outside forces(the one thing both sides aren't very interested in, especially Israel).

That would force them to deal with this once and for all.

Until that happens, this is to be considered "normal", and part of daily life. Sad, but that's all there is to it.

fulmer · Oct 13, 2003, 06:30 PM

Originally posted by voodoo:
God is a word from norse that describes the norse gods Aesir. It was then imposed on the Christian God. In germanic languages the word god is still used for any god in any religion. Christians traditionally use a capital G when talking about God, because he is the One and Only God. Writing G-d to imply that is his name is just plain misunderstanding it mad zealotry. Either way it is wrong from lingual and religious respect. They could just as well call him Mr. X or something!

You are overreaching your linguistics a bit.

First, Judaism was before Christianity. Labeling their written (and verbal) use of the Lord's name as wrong is, don't take it personally, ignorant, or (your usage) zealotry on your part.

There are differences in Hebrew that you need to understand. God as we translate it is normally 'elohim', which translated literally is plural 'gods'. However, the plural form can be (and in this case is) a sign of respect. Hence the plurality.

'Lord' as we translate into English is considered God's personal name. In Hebrew it's never pronounced, just spoken as 'Adonai'. 'Yawveh' is how some attempt to voice the unpointed (sans vowels) Hebrew for 'Lord'.

You can compare the two in spoken text if you take 'viyomer adonai eloheynoo': 'And the Lord our God said...'; eloheynoo being 'our God' (as Hebrew indicates possession at the end, like Arabic does) and 'Adonai' being 'the Lord'.

Extending that to articles isn't suprising, especially if the author views it as if he's speaking, and if he considers writing God in English to be akin to God's personal name.

fulmer · Oct 13, 2003, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by voodoo:
I've seen many many Jews write God, not G-d. I've seen the latter a few times though and I was wondering about that.

I think I covered this, but a reminder: depending on that particular Jew's feelings, he may consider 'God' akin to 'Adonai', while some may choose the more literal separation between 'Elohim' and 'Adonai', taking the former as 'God' and the latter as 'Adonai'.