[moki]

Clearly some of these allegations will be bandwagoning in an attempt to cash in, but the Masai women bringing forth white-faced babies is pretty damning evidence. Given that this is supposed to have occurred over a period of 30 years, actually coming up with convictions against the British troops who perpetrated these crimes may not be easy... DNA testing, perhaps?

from: http://www.economist.com/displaystor...%27%21P%218%0A

.....

Who did what to whom?
Oct 2nd 2003 | DOL DOL
From The Economist print edition

Rape is always hard to prove. Especially when lots of money is at stake

IT WAS a heart-rending scene. A hundred Masai women trekked to the British High Commission in Nairobi on August 14th, coddling 40 pale-faced children against their ebony skin and scarlet robes. They said they had been raped by British soldiers. Another 800 women, mostly from the Masai tribe or their Samburu cousins, are making similar claims. For the past 30 years, there has been an “epidemic of rape” by British troops on exercise in central Kenya, said Martyn Day, a British lawyer organising a civil action against Britain's Ministry of Defence.

Rose, a 26-year-old prostitute from the Indian Ocean resort of Malindi, says that the first she knew of the rally was when friends told her they had seen her two children among the marchers on the evening news. Far from being the offspring of a rape, she says, both were born after professional liaisons with Italian tourists. Rose's mother, who lives near Nanyuki, the British army's base in central Kenya, was accompanying them.

Last week, a British diplomat revealed that a six-month British investigation had found that the police reports supporting the women's claims had been forged. Local hospital registers also seem questionable, with the entries that detail the rapes typically scrawled at the very bottom of the page.

Confronted with Rose's claim, Mr Day admitted that he did not know all the children at the rally, but said all had been vouched for by their chiefs, making any deception nearly impossible. He stressed the physical evidence of some 60 mixed-race children, and the women's testimonies. He has heard 80 women's accounts so far, mostly through an interpreter.

Typically, the women claim to have been gang-raped by at least three British soldiers while herding goats or collecting water. Some say they were lured by their assailants with biscuits. Elizabeth Naeku, a 58-year-old alcoholic in Dol Dol, a nearby town, said she and a friend were raped at home by around six British soldiers. When she delivered a half-caste son, she said, her husband abandoned her.

Mr Day unearthed the rape allegations in 2000, while preparing a suit on behalf of hundreds of Masai herders blown up by ordnance left lying on firing ranges used by the British. Initially, around ten women claimed they had been raped. Then, Britain settled the munitions case for £4.5m ($7m), with some victims receiving hundreds of times the Kenyan average annual income. More alleged rape victims subsequently came forward. Mr Day says he is sure that most are sincere, and predicts that over 400 of their cases will be proved, implicating 2,000 British soldiers.

The British investigation is continuing. Mr Day is hoping to seek corroboration for his clients' claims from local elders and chiefs. He did something similar during his previous case against the British Defence Ministry, but some bogus claimants may still have slipped through the net. One Masai claims to have won compensation for injuries caused, not by British bombs, but by a hyena. Meanwhile, the 600 British soldiers resident in Nanyuki are confined to barracks, crippling the economy of a town that once depended on their carousing for its livelihood.

[AutoJC]

What idiots those soldiers are- I don't condone forced sexual contact of any kind, but even procuring prostitutes down there exposes one to AIDS and also venereal diseases.

[eklipse]

America's revered Coalition partners.

[thunderous_funker]

Despicable. Absolutely despicable.

I hope they are all prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Sadly, I fear they will merely be transfered and have it noted on their records. Military justice is too often an oxymoron.

[lil'babykitten]

I actually read about this a few months ago. It only made the Economist now?
Anyway, it's a sickening story. It doesn't sound like it has been properly investigated either.

There are British troops in Iraq right now.....I wonder if I correctly understood what they meant when they said they were 'liberating' the Iraqis.....

[moki]

Originally posted by eklipse:
America's revered Coalition partners.

I fail to see how any of this story has anything whatever to do with America...?

[christ]

Originally posted by moki:
I fail to see how any of this story has anything whatever to do with America...?

...or with Americans.

FWIW, I'm with t_f on this one. As if it matters.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by moki:
I fail to see how any of this story has anything whatever to do with America...?

Sure it does. As long as British Troops are participating with US troops in sensative operations in the mideast, I'd be taking accounts of decades of systematic rape and cover up very very very very very seriously if I were in the Pentagon.

[eklipse]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
Sure it does. As long as British Troops are participating with US troops in sensative operations in the mideast, I'd be taking accounts of decades of systematic rape and cover up very very very very very seriously if I were in the Pentagon.

Exactly - How long before we see Iraqi kids with 'stiff upper lips'?

[christ]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
Sure it does. As long as British Troops are participating with US troops in sensative operations in the mideast, I'd be taking accounts of decades of systematic rape and cover up very very very very very seriously if I were in the Pentagon.

...but let's not go overboard. If we are basing reactions on this one article, I would say it was far from proven that there was any "decades of systematic rape and cover up". As noted, there is considerable incentive for extremely poor locals to make a seriously large amount of money by simple allegations. The 'Rose' in the article seems to imply that the allegations of rape may be simply falsifications, nd the main voice for the rapes is the lawyer, who stands to benefit hugely from any case.

Beware leaping to conclusions.

[moki]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
I actually read about this a few months ago. It only made the Economist now?
Anyway, it's a sickening story. It doesn't sound like it has been properly investigated either.

Well, this is a follow-up article in The Economist, it isn't the first time they've covered it. Regardless, I too find it reprehensible, if the allegations of rape are true. I'm sure some of them aren't, but it appears many of them are.

There are British troops in Iraq right now.....I wonder if I correctly understood what they meant when they said they were 'liberating' the Iraqis.....

I don't think this is something that is endemic to the entire UK forces, do you? Seems a bit too simplistic of a generalization. The morale/discipline of the crack troops that are in Iraq are likely quite different than the troops that have been sitting on their hands in Kenya for the past 30 years.

[iWrite]

Since the East Africans have the highest rate of AIDS in the world, any men who are having sexual relations with those women are likely infected with HIV.

The rate is something like 50% of all women being infected with HIV.

As far as rape going on, I don't doubt it. But, it's not just Britons. It's also Americans and other nationalities stationed at the naval base in Nairobi and it's been going on for a very long time. I was there in the 80s working and it was a problem back then and it is apparently still a problem.

The sad thing is that having babies that are not 100% Masai (or from another respective tribe) results in stigma for the women and those children.

Equally sad is that those men are HIV infected and bringing it home to their wives in their home countries and infecting them also.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by moki:
I don't think this is something that is endemic to the entire UK forces, do you?

No I don't. But I wonder really what they do about it. It's not being settled properly now-trying to settle it with money isn't my idea of dealing with a situation as serious as this. What changes have been made to prevent such a thing from reoccurring? I doubt any.

[moki]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
No I don't. But I wonder really what they do about it. It's not being settled properly now-trying to settle it with money isn't my idea of dealing with a situation as serious as this. What changes have been made to prevent such a thing from reoccurring? I doubt any.

What changes could possibly be made to make it certain this sort of thing would never happen? Importing prostitutes to service the troops wouldn't be acceptable to many people.

Kevlar chastity belts for officers, even when off-duty? I really see no way to prevent it utterly.

[christ]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
No I don't. But I wonder really what they do about it. It's not being settled properly now-trying to settle it with money isn't my idea of dealing with a situation as serious as this. What changes have been made to prevent such a thing from reoccurring? I doubt any.

First, establish if it occurred. Then figure out how it occurred. Then (if it did occur) figure out how to stop it from recurring.

We appear to be still at step 1 - it is not the time to rush to step 3.

I find it amusing that those who defend the right of Gitmo inmates to presumption of innocence, don't grant that same right to British (or any other) soldiers serving in East Africa.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by moki:
I really see no way to prevent it utterly.

Me neither, not the way things are now. Needs better organisation of the army amongst other things.

[moki]

Originally posted by christ:
I find it amusing that those who defend the right of Gitmo inmates to presumption of innocence, don't grant that same right to British (or any other) soldiers serving in East Africa.

Ah, but evil westerners are always guilty, and the cause of everything bad in this world, so it makes sense.

[eklipse]

Originally posted by christ:
I find it amusing that those who defend the right of Gitmo inmates to presumption of innocence, don't grant that same right to British (or any other) soldiers serving in East Africa.

Gitmo inmates are being held with a profound lack of evidence. As for the soldiers: "the Masai women bringing forth white-faced babies is pretty damning evidence".

[eklipse]

Originally posted by moki:
What changes could possibly be made to make it certain this sort of thing would never happen? Importing prostitutes to service the troops wouldn't be acceptable to many people.

Kevlar chastity belts for officers, even when off-duty? I really see no way to prevent it utterly.

Surely you're not suggesting that 'a little rape here and there' is acceptable?

[christ]

Originally posted by eklipse:
Gitmo inmates are being held with a profound lack of evidence. As for the soldiers: "the Masai women bringing forth white-faced babies is pretty damning evidence".

Unless there is another available sourse of 'white-faced babies', e.g, from the article:

Rose, a 26-year-old prostitute from the Indian Ocean resort of Malindi, says that the first she knew of the rally was when friends told her they had seen her two children among the marchers on the evening news. Far from being the offspring of a rape, she says, both were born after professional liaisons with Italian tourists

.

[moki]

Originally posted by eklipse:
Surely you're not suggesting that 'a little rape here and there' is acceptable?

Absolutely not. I'm stating that preventing it completely is unlikely.

[moki]

Originally posted by eklipse:
Gitmo inmates are being held with a profound lack of evidence. As for the soldiers: "the Masai women bringing forth white-faced babies is pretty damning evidence".

Let's be honest, you have no idea what the evidence is. Just because it hasn't been made public for security reasons doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Given the number of combatants, and the relative few that were detained and taken to Gitmo, I think it's fair to assume that the few that were chosen out of the many were chosen for a reason, no?

[christ]

Originally posted by moki:
Let's be honest, you have no idea what the evidence is. Just because it hasn't been made public for security reasons doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Given the number of combatants, and the relative few that were detained and taken to Gitmo, I think it's fair to assume that the few that were chosen out of the many were chosen for a reason, no?

No.

I'd be interested in your statistics. How many non-Afghan combatants were there fighting for the Taliban? How many of these were captured? How many of these are in Gitmo?

If you have these numbers, share them, and we can all see if there are 'relatively few' in Gitmo. Then we can address the rest of this post.

And besides, this is a Kenya thread, not a Gitmo thread, Gitmo was being used for comparison, not as a topic in its own right.

[queritor]

Originally posted by eklipse:
Gitmo inmates are being held with a profound lack of evidence. As for the soldiers: "the Masai women bringing forth white-faced babies is pretty damning evidence".

It's only evidence that sex occured. It certaintly doesn't provide any evidence that these women were raped.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by queritor:
It's only evidence that sex occured. It certaintly doesn't provide any evidence that these women were raped.

There is evidence as well as statements from the women involved.

the women claim to have been gang-raped by at least three British soldiers while herding goats or collecting water.

[eklipse]

Originally posted by christ:
Unless there is another available sourse of 'white-faced babies', e.g, from the article:

Well, if we are to believe this Guardian ( ) article then the whole case would appear to be suspicious: http://www.guardian.co.uk/kenya/stor...053942,00.html

Still, 800 claims of rape and lots of fatherless, white-faced babies seems pretty dubious to me.

[eklipse]

Originally posted by moki:
Let's be honest, you have no idea what the evidence is. Just because it hasn't been made public for security reasons doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Given the number of combatants, and the relative few that were detained and taken to Gitmo, I think it's fair to assume that the few that were chosen out of the many were chosen for a reason, no?

Read the other thread. Many detainees would appear to have been arrested because 'some guy said they were bad' - no tangible evidence was ever produced.

[theolein]

Firstly, I don't think this really has anything to do with Gauntanamo or Iraq, except perhaps in some very indirect way.

I am sure that this is going to be hard to solve. Rape is a huge problem in a lot of Africa, but so is prostitution, and it would be hard to seperate the two, especially in a case like this.

I don't think that British soldiers are all above raping some women, but I also don't think that all African prostitutes are above claiming rape in order to make money. I don't really know what it's like in Kenya, but in South Africa it's pretty normal that there will be prostitutes around places where there is money. A lot of Africa is desperatley poor and prostitution with tourists etc brings in more money than they would otherwise get. While I can certainly believe that some soldiers would rape some woman "for the fun of it" (note the quotes!) I find the idea of mass rapes somehow difficult to believe, and 800 sounds like a very high number.

Perhaps it's true, perhaps only part of it is true. Only DNA test of the babies and British soldiers presentat the base during conception will prove it. Those tests should definitely be done.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by moki:
Ah, but evil westerners are always guilty, and the cause of everything bad in this world, so it makes sense.

man, you seriously need to get a grip.

people can object to things just on the basis that they are objectionable, not just because its westerners doing it.

You're basically accusing anyone who might object as being ethnocentric, which makes no sense considering some of us are in your same country

[pooka]

[Spliffdaddy]

you rule, pooka

[moki]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
man, you seriously need to get a grip.

No... you're just not getting the reference... the person it was directed at likely does tho. Just a little tongue-in-cheek.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by moki:
No... you're just not getting the reference... the person it was directed at likely does tho. Just a little tongue-in-cheek.

oh...well, then just ignore.