[rampant]

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1012-01.htm

US Soldiers Bulldoze Farmers' Crops
Americans accused of brutal 'punishment' tactics against villagers
by Patrick Cockburn in Dhuluaya

US soldiers driving bulldozers, with jazz blaring from loudspeakers, have uprooted ancient groves of date palms as well
as orange and lemon trees in central Iraq as part of a new policy of collective punishment of farmers who do not give information about guerrillas attacking US troops.

The stumps of palm trees, some 70 years old, protrude from the brown earth scoured by the bulldozers beside the road at Dhuluaya, a small town 50 miles north of Baghdad. Local women were yesterday busily bundling together the branches of the uprooted orange and lemon trees and carrying then back to their homes for firewood.

Nusayef Jassim, one of 32 farmers who saw their fruit trees destroyed, said: "They told us that the resistance fighters hide in our farms, but this is not true. They didn't capture anything. They didn't find any weapons."

Other farmers said that US troops had told them, over a loudspeaker in Arabic, that the fruit groves were being bulldozed to punish the farmers for not informing on the resistance which is very active in this Sunni Muslim district.

"They made a sort of joke against us by playing jazz music while they were cutting down the trees," said one man. Ambushes of US troops have taken place around Dhuluaya. But Sheikh Hussein Ali Saleh al-Jabouri, a member of a delegation that went to the nearby US base to ask for compensation for the loss of the fruit trees, said American officers described what had happened as "a punishment of local people because 'you know who is in the resistance and do not tell us'." What the Israelis had done by way of collective punishment of Palestinians was now happening in Iraq, Sheikh Hussein added.

The destruction of the fruit trees took place in the second half of last month but, like much which happens in rural Iraq, word of what occurred has only slowly filtered out. The destruction of crops took place along a kilometer-long stretch of road just after it passes over a bridge.

Farmers say that 50 families lost their livelihoods, but a petition addressed to the coalition forces in Dhuluaya pleading in erratic English for compensation, lists only 32 people. The petition says: "Tens of poor families depend completely on earning their life on these orchards and now they became very poor and have nothing and waiting for hunger and death."

The children of one woman who owned some fruit trees lay down in front of a bulldozer but were dragged away, according to eyewitnesses who did not want to give their names. They said that one American soldier broke down and cried during the operation. When a reporter from the newspaper Iraq Today attempted to take a photograph of the bulldozers at work a soldier grabbed his camera and tried to smash it. The same paper quotes Lt Col Springman, a US commander in the region, as saying: "We asked the farmers several times to stop the attacks, or to tell us who was responsible, but the farmers didn't tell us."

Informing US troops about the identity of their attackers would be extremely dangerous in Iraqi villages, where most people are related and everyone knows each other. The farmers who lost their fruit trees all belong to the Khazraji tribe and are unlikely to give information about fellow tribesmen if they are, in fact, attacking US troops.

Asked how much his lost orchard was worth, Nusayef Jassim said in a distraught voice: "It is as if someone cut off my hands and you asked me how much my hands were worth."

[shmerek]

Brutal.

[Lerkfish]

words cannot express my outrage at the complete stupidity and wastefullness of such actions. Do they think that climate easily regenerates fruit trees?

[Uday's Carcass]

is this site even legit? A perusing of the site's content leaves much to be desired.

If this were really happening, I'd expect confirmation from other sources (al jazeera notwithstanding).

so the challenge is yours. produce some corroboration, I'll believe it, and I might just condemn the action.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Uday's Carcass:
is this site even legit? A perusing of the site's content leaves much to be desired.

If this were really happening, I'd expect confirmation from other sources (al jazeera notwithstanding).

so the challenge is yours. produce some corroboration, I'll believe it, and I might just condemn the action.

well, there's this one

(waits for condemnation.....nah. never happen)

[BlackGriffen]

God, this is both immoral and counter-Machiavellian. I believe that leaves it in the realm of plain stupid. Is the U.S. taking lessons from the Israelies on how to run things in Iraq?

"The Prince" chapter 19:

It makes him hated above all things, as I have said, to be rapacious, and to be a violator of the property and women of his subjects, from both of which he must abstain. And when neither their property nor their honor is touched, the majority of men live content, and he has only to contend with the ambition of a few, whom he can curb with ease in many ways.

Destroying the property of the uncooperative should be in chapter one of the book: How to Make Enemies, 101.

BlackGriffen

[rampant]

Originally posted by Uday's Carcass:
is this site even legit? A perusing of the site's content leaves much to be desired.

If this were really happening, I'd expect confirmation from other sources (al jazeera notwithstanding).

so the challenge is yours. produce some corroboration, I'll believe it, and I might just condemn the action.

Why the **** should I care what some 2 bit retard's alt-nick on an internet forum thinks? I don't care if you agree with everything I have to say, your opinion means nothing to me,

[The Mick]

This type of behavior will only lead to more repressed anti-American sentiment which I believe will manifest itself rather quickly once we withdraw our military forces and Iraq will revert to former ways.

[moki]

Originally posted by The Mick:
This type of behavior will only lead to more repressed anti-American sentiment which I believe will manifest itself rather quickly once we withdraw our military forces and Iraq will revert to former ways.

Wait, which type of behavior? Cherry-picking sensationalistic stories that make the US look bad and ignoring anything remotely positive?

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Americans accused of brutal 'punishment' tactics...

Gee, it's always cute to bury the operative words in the SUBTITLE.

I'd like to see this reported on from a legitimate source also. One that actually gets interviews from BOTH sides, and makes an effort to actually COVER a story. And no, not the original source presented as a 'different' one.

It's interesting to me- the left loves to bust on people who only get their 'news' from someone like Rush Limbaugh, then turn right around and get their 'news' from only one source without so much as an eye blink, and don't even look for the obvious propaganda flags.

A search of 'Dhuluaya' turns up NO activity going on there that any other reporter for any other news source on the planet-save ONE- seems worthy to report on. And the two that have? Patrick Cockburn and Robert Fisk- both of the Independant.

Reading a few of their other articles reveals that both have a painfully obvious bias, and a lot of their 'reporting' comes across as bitter screeds against the war, and against US officials.

Then in typical fashion, the same articles by the same two-man 'journalist army' makes the rounds on every single two bit "Ihatecapitalism.org"/ "bitterleftistscreeds.org" spew'-site, producing the usual "See? It must be true, cause a million different 'nutball.org' sites regurgitated it" effect.

I notice a trend in the Iraq war articles I was able to find by both Cockburn and Fisk; both are never eye witnesses to what they 'report'. Both seem to show up somewhere, and take a bunch of direct quotes from angry Iraqis, but NEVER produce a single direct quote from any US official. There are never any pro- US Iraqis quoted. There are never any photos of Americans doing any of the accused activities- in this article he explains that fact away via quoting someone else's newspaper.

The problem with this kind of 'journalism', it's so easy for it to be nothing but a pile of steaming propaganda. Parts of it may be true. But it reeks of being not even HALF of whatever the whole story is.

For example:

http://www.chalomumbai.com/smd/eat/2...gust/60197.htm

I found this report of what apparently has been common in Iraq for date palm orchards:

Kamal Ayoob Khaleel, one man alone against an orchard of a couple of hundred trees, has this day begun the year’s date palm harvest, the first of the post-Saddam Hussein era.

Saddam’s rule was so complete even the dates felt his wrath.

In good times, the date harvest was eagerly awaited throughout the Middle East, and the arrival of the first dates, like the arrival of the first Beaujolais, was a time of high excitement.

But like so much else in Iraqi life, the business of dates was fundamentally altered for the worse during Saddam’s rule. The president, not always satisfied with merely executing or exiling his perceived enemies, also on occasion attacked their livelihood. As part of his continuing feud with the Shiite Muslims who populate much of southern Iraq, where the main date harvest occurs, Saddam attacked the trees.

In addition to chopping them down, he drained the swamps that gave them water. Drought further reduced the water supply and raised the salinity of what was left — a double disaster.

Of the nine million trees in Basra province, six million were destroyed. Overall, the country lost half its 30 million trees in 20 years. What had been the largest date industry in the world - so esteemed that its varieties were planted as far away as California’s Coachella Valley — declined in economic importance, making the trees less valuable and then, deepening the cycle of decline, less cared for.

...Then came the latest war. The rampage that followed the fall of the Saddam government engulfed the university. The palm lab was no exception. “Just destruction for the sake of destruction,” Jasim said.

Looters stole everything...

Meanwhile, Jasim said he would try to find the money to rebuild not just the lab but also the large part of his life that went with it. He met recently with Americans who control the money for Iraq’s reconstruction. He said he couldn’t tell where dates fell on their priority list, but he hadn’t heard from them. He’s waiting.

Outside, even the trees lining the drive to the research center have been taken. These went later, long after the looting. People have gone scavenging for wood because liquefied petroleum gas, with which they cook, is in short supply after saboteurs damaged the refineries. Every single tree on the road has been reduced to a stump, yet another of the war’s still widening ripples.

So sabotaging date palms in Iraq= a common tactic of Saddam, and presumably his supporters, and now common among looters and ‘firewood’ scavengers.

So could it that when one finds a roadside full of palm stumps in Iraq, it's possible there were other reasons why and how they got that way? If people are using them for fuel, where did the bulldozed trees go?

Perhaps two reporters with a bias from the start, just arriving on scene where of course THEY didn't personally witness anything happen, and didn't even seek out a US official to get another possible explanation, could be fed a steaming load of bullcrap by pro-Saddam/Anti-US Iraqis with an agenda?

I say it's easily possible.

Funny, the Iraqis themselves never seem to have a problem being able to speak with actual US officials to obtain answers to things- why can’t a reporter?

Exactly why until there's a report from an actual news source that even pretends to be objective, and COVERS the story for real (not just from one lopsided angle) I'll reserve my judgment.

Personally, I prefer to get news from more than just one guy on the radio, or two guys “with an obvious bias, and a bunch of “me too! me too!” bitterleftists.org regurgitation sites.

[tie]

Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
Americans accused of brutal 'punishment' tactics...
...
It's interesting to me- the left loves to bust on people who only get their 'news' from someone like Rush Limbaugh, then turn right around ...

[rampant]

Originally posted by moki:
Wait, which type of behavior? Cherry-picking sensationalistic stories that make the US look good and ignoring anything remotely negative?

Stop trolling my topics with your racist allegations.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by moki:
Wait, which type of behavior? Cherry-picking sensationalistic stories that make the US look bad and ignoring anything remotely positive?

no, the concept of destroying permanently people's livelihood and food source. That tends to do the opposite of making them want to comply with turning over their relatives.

not everything on this board is a personal war between right and left. Sometimes things happen that are objectionable on their own, independent of party.

[The Mick]

Originally posted by moki:
Wait, which type of behavior? Cherry-picking sensationalistic stories that make the US look bad and ignoring anything remotely positive?

Sorry, but I don't find anything about the article linked to be sensationalistic or cherry-picking. If this is the way we win over the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people then as soon as we leave they will go right back to their former America-hating ways. How about I come over to your house unprovoked with a bulldozer and rip up your property? Would you be upset and resent me?

[Spliffdaddy]

That article is obviously BS.

Small wonder half the folks here believe it.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by rampant:
US soldiers driving bulldozers, with jazz blaring from loudspeakers, have uprooted ancient groves of date palms as well
as orange and lemon trees in central Iraq as part of a new policy of collective punishment of farmers who do not give information about guerrillas attacking US troops.

I know it's not true; how many soldiers listen to jazz?

As they destroy the groves of fruit trees, rather than Ride of the Valkyries blaring from the speakers on their bulldozers, they have Tony Bennett singing "My foolish heart."

[Uday's Carcass]

guess you're feeling the weakness of your position, rampant. Attacking me and CRASH. He seriously tore you a new one, mate.

hahahahah.

[rampant]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
That article is obviously BS.

Small wonder half the folks here believe it.

There's something wrong with you, like a dog who's been kicked too many times.

[Uday's Carcass]

Originally posted by rampant:
There's something wrong with you, like a dog who's been kicked too many times.

you really go in for these nasty personal attacks. That's the third one in this short thread. With a rate like that, no wonder you have green starts.

[rampant]

Nasty personal attack? What are you talking about?

[BibleThumper]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
words cannot express my outrage at the complete stupidity and wastefullness of such actions. Do they think that climate easily regenerates fruit trees?

Words can not express how much I'm laughing at this nerdy **** who acts like he cares about one farmer's farm across the world. You do not give two shits about this man's crops, and acting offended only insults the man.

[eklipse]

Originally posted by BibleThumper:
Words can not express how much I'm laughing at this nerdy **** who acts like he cares about one farmer's farm across the world. You do not give two shits about this man's crops, and acting offended only insults the man.

Errrr.......Yeah......

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by BibleThumper:
Words can not express how much I'm laughing at this nerdy **** who acts like he cares about one farmer's farm across the world. You do not give two shits about this man's crops, and acting offended only insults the man.

Just because you don't give two shits that's no reason to expect others not to.
I for one am thankful that there are at least a few people in this world that care about the welfare of others.

[BibleThumper]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Just because you don't give two shits that's no reason to expect others not to.
I for one am thankful that there are at least a few people in this world that care about the welfare of others.

Care for the welfare is one thing. Yeah, it sucks that these guys' lives were ****** like that. But people who act like it actually makes an impression on their lives make my toes curl. The only reason they do it is to make themselves look like better people. That makes them worse than the bulldozers because they're actually using someone elses tragedy for their own personal gain.

[thunderous_funker]

Sho nuff. I mean, how could angry Arabs half a world away effect my life in any meaningful way? And its not like what happens in some distanct stretch of desert actually costs me money or anything.

Liberals are so weird to get all into stuff like that.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by BibleThumper:
Care for the welfare is one thing. Yeah, it sucks that these guys' lives were ****** like that. But people who act like it actually makes an impression on their lives make my toes curl. The only reason they do it is to make themselves look like better people. That makes them worse than the bulldozers because they're actually using someone elses tragedy for their own personal gain.

um....no.

and that's all the response you deserve.

[BibleThumper]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
um....no.

and that's all the response you deserve.

I used to know a man who would constantly beat his dog. Bad day at work? Kick the dog. Lost at a video game? Kick the dog. Got a ticket driving home? Kick the dog. Spilled his drink? Kick the dog. After a while, the dog got progressively stranger and stranger. As soon as you entered the room you could tell there was something wrong with this animal. Well you remind me of that dog. There's just something wrong with you man.

[shmerek]

Originally posted by BibleThumper:
I used to know a man who would constantly beat his dog. Bad day at work? Kick the dog. Lost at a video game? Kick the dog. Got a ticket driving home? Kick the dog. Spilled his drink? Kick the dog. After a while, the dog got progressively stranger and stranger. As soon as you entered the room you could tell there was something wrong with this animal. Well you remind me of that dog. There's just something wrong with you man.

Huh...?

[icruise]

Originally posted by BibleThumper:
Words can not express how much I'm laughing at this nerdy **** who acts like he cares about one farmer's farm across the world. You do not give two shits about this man's crops, and acting offended only insults the man.

So you think it's impossible for someone to care about someone else all the way across the world? You're the one I really feel sorry for.

[Face Ache]

Faced with the US' disengagement from global reality that I feel I can no longer usefully contribute here. So I just laugh my arse off at you all instead.

Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Powell, Iraq, Enron, Israel, tax cuts, Kyoto, landmines, Schwarzenegger, puerile propaganda... I LOVE IT ALL!

It's like the whole thing is scripted by John Irving.

Keep up the good work you wacky Americans.

BRING ON SYRIA!

[yakkiebah]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
Sho nuff. I mean, how could angry Arabs half a world away effect my life in any meaningful way? And its not like what happens in some distanct stretch of desert actually costs me money or anything.

Liberals are so weird to get all into stuff like that.

hahaha

... they're actually using someone elses tragedy for their own personal gain.

Maybe BibleHumper should have a chat with his fellow "compasionate conservatives" what the fuzz is all about in Iraq.

[BibleThumper]

Originally posted by Icruise:
So you think it's impossible for someone to care about someone else all the way across the world? You're the one I really feel sorry for.

No. I think it's impossible to have 'unexplainable outrage' over a bunch of fruit trees being bulldozed, like Lerkfish expressed. I Feel sorry for them, but I'm not going to act like my mother was raped and tossed over a bridge because of the tough luck of some strangers.

[BibleThumper]

Originally posted by yakkiebah:
BibleHumper

That's a personal attack.

[Face Ache]

Originally posted by BibleThumper:
No. I think it's impossible to have 'unexplainable outrage' over a bunch of fruit trees being bulldozed, like Lerkfish expressed. I Feel sorry for them, but I'm not going to act like my mother was raped and tossed over a bridge because of the tough luck of some strangers.

It could be that Lerk's outrage is directed towards his nation's military, rather than the deed itself.

If I were American I would just be profoundly embarrassed to have my military adopt Israeli tactics of terror.

[yakkiebah]

Originally posted by BibleThumper:
That's a personal attack.

You couldn't care less about a bunch of people on the other side of the world who got their property bulldozed.

I supose it ain't so hard to imagine how i feel about this...

But yeah rules are rules, i apologize.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by BibleThumper:
That's a personal attack.

and how would you characterize your treatment of me in this thread?

face it, you've launched an unwarranted personal attack campaign against me for the mere reason I am capable of putting myself in another man's shoes.

...if you cannot do that, fine, but lay off with the personal attacks.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Gee, 24 hours later and still not a SINGLE legitimate source of news has seen fit to cover this bunch of hearsay/biased op-ed/tripe 'accusation-become fact' passed off as 'news'. Not ONE!

'magine that!

Maybe because REAL news sources have to go by established FACTS that can be corroborated and backed up? Maybe they have to go out and use REAL journalism practices, not just spew “and so-and-so that no one knows from Adam SAID this happened, therefore blah blah blah...” ? Maybe real journalists have to actually ANSWER more questions with a truly COVERED story, than they raise? Maybe they can’t just fall back on turning random accusations into seedy headlines designed to play on gullible-conspiracynut.org sites?

Nahh. Couldn't be.

[Uday's Carcass]

Originally posted by Face Ache:
If I were American I would just be profoundly embarrassed to have my military adopt Israeli tactics of terror.

You Lackies of Liberal Ideology and Pinko Sausagelickers still haven't established that this crap is real. CRASH ripped you a new one and you just ignore the guy. No wonder your outdated and pro-terrorist philosophies are rejected by mainstream America.

You're all too willing to swallow the rancid cud that's puked up by liberal scrotums worldwide.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Heh. Well that's one way to put it.

I have to say, it is entertaining to watch people whine about Rush Limbaugh and 'right wing conspiracies' Fox News, etc. when it's obvious that many of those same folks are themselves SO EASILY led by their own set of leftward-gyrating one-source spinmeisters.

[Face Ache]

Originally posted by Uday's Carcass:
You Lackies of Liberal Ideology and Pinko Sausagelickers still haven't established that this crap is real.

Yes perhaps, my rednecked goat-fellating friend. But as an Amerikan you are in no position to judge "reality". After all, Amerika is on a path to electing the Olsen twins to the Whitehouse. You're a bunch of nutters.

edit: Monkeyboy was just on TV saying Australia is a lot like Texas. Hahaha! Lookit da funny monkey.

[mr. natural]

Posted by Face Ache:

Yes perhaps, my rednecked goat-fellating friend. But as an Amerikan you are in no position to judge "reality".

Yep, it's truly hard to "judge reality" when Uday's bullet riddled Carcass' is lost in heaven with virgins attending to his every virtual whim. But doG works in miraculous ways, eh?

Alla Akbar!

[deedar]

Originally posted by Face Ache:

If I were American I would just be profoundly embarrassed to have my military adopt Israeli tactics of terror.

Disgusted captures my feelings more accurately.

[Face Ache]

Perhaps Amerika needs a "Reality" reality TV show.

"On tonight's show Fareeza prepares the family meal of gruel while two year old Ameen plays with a cluster bomblet".

[ThinkInsane]

As we all know, there are plenty of main stream media outlets that are openly critical of US operations in Iraq. the fact that not one of those outlets seem to be covering this story really makes me doubt the validity of it. Something this juicy, the anti-bush, anti-war set would be all over it. And I don't mean that in any sort of derogatory way, the story would be real news, worthy of print, regardless of your feelings on Bush and the war in general.

Until I see it on the BBC or in the New York Times, or some other reliable source, I'll file this in the "This Information is Suspect and High Dubious" file.

[moki]

Originally posted by The Mick:
Sorry, but I don't find anything about the article linked to be sensationalistic or cherry-picking.

I was talking about the person who posted it, and his propensity to pop up only when there's some good (and usually unsubstantiated) mud to fling around at the US/current administration. It's quite remarkable, really.

[rampant]

I warned you to stop trolling my threads with your racist bullshit, Andrew Welch of Ambrosia Software who posts as the nickname "moki" on the MacNN forums.

If you can't contribute to my threads without spouting racist drivel then don't post in them.


:yellow smilie icon to indicate sarcastic friendlyness which barely covers a face of hate and loathing:

[rampant]

I wonder, "moki", why the yellow smilie? We all know how you loathe all things non-capitalist, China cheifly. I don't think I'm the only one here who noticed that you're only using yellow smilies to indicate sarcastic emotions, which clearly is meant to discredic asians as a whole. I have yet to see you post a single white or brown icon.

[lemondrop]

I call BULLSHIT

[Troll]

Originally posted by BibleThumper:
No. I think it's impossible to have 'unexplainable outrage' over a bunch of fruit trees being bulldozed, like Lerkfish expressed. I Feel sorry for them, but I'm not going to act like my mother was raped and tossed over a bridge because of the tough luck of some strangers.

Have you ever sat down and wondered what went through Mohammed Atta's mind as he sat down in his seat on that plane? What motivates a man to give his life in order to take others'? I have spent many hours wondering about this. I don't think the full anwser is that he's a loon or that he is a violent bastard or religiously brainwashed. It might be a mix of some of those factors, but at the end of the day, he was an educated young man with a family and a future. And he linked up with perhaps hundreds of others who felt the same way he did.

Then I see I report like this. I also doubt this particular report's veracity but there are enough other stories like it. I think of what it feels like to have your arms and legs blown off and every member of your family killed by an stray American bomb. I think of what it feels like to have your home demolished by an Israeli bulldozer. I think of the rage that must build up inside you when soldiers open fire on a taxi killing your mother and sisters. I don't think I am particularly gifted with powers of empathy, and yet it gets a whole lot easier for me to understand the emotions that motivate people to climb on a plane with box cutters. I've never been able to find out what the incident might have been that broke the camel's back so to speak; that made Atta become what he did, but I'm sure the story is there somewhere. I think that people have limited capacity to take sh1t. At some point we all crack.

If you could reduce the current spate of terrorism down to two or three factors, where would "lack of empathy" be on your list? I'd put it right up at number one. Having empathy requires that you understand a person's culture, his problems, his desires, his view of life, his values and the problems he faces in realising those things. As long as you can't put yourself in someone else's position and understand their grief and their gripes, you can't be secure that they don't think you are to blame for their lot; the world is a more dangerous place for you. So, Biblethumper, think of it in purely selfish terms if you must. The reason some of us criticise this kind of action is because we quite like life. We don't want to give Iraqi farmers' children a gripe that they might one day choose to settle with a 767, or a carbomb. Some of us believe that dealing with terrorism involves not only using a stick but understanding the donkey's motivation.

I think one of the major problems with the US's approach to dealing with terrorism to date has been the lack of empathy, a failure to appreciate the culture and values of the Arab world, to understand their problems and complaints. A failure to nip terrorism in the bud by addressing the root cause and to deal constuctively with the issues that motivate people to become terrorists. Palestine would be a good place to start and the Bush Administration has missed many opportunities to show genuine concern.

[Troll]

Originally posted by rampant:
I wonder, "moki", why the yellow smilie? We all know how you loathe all things non-capitalist, China cheifly. I don't think I'm the only one here who noticed that you're only using yellow smilies to indicate sarcastic emotions, which clearly is meant to discredic asians as a whole. I have yet to see you post a single white or brown icon.

Please tell me you're joking

Hate and loathing? Moki? Have I missed something?