[moki]

I had no idea things were _that_ bad in South Africa... I knew they were bad, but this is a bit beyond the pale. As a sidenote, I was a bit surprised to see that Sweden had almost double the number of murders per 100,000 people than the US did -- that certainly clashes with my preconceived notions of Sweden.

from: http://www.economist.com/displaystor...ory_id=2131478

.....

Crime in South Africa

Small mercies
Oct 9th 2003 | JOHANNESBURG
From The Economist print edition


New figures offer a crumb of comfort

“OPEN your palms and hold your arms up in front of your chest. It shows submission—and the bones in your forearms might deflect a bullet.” That, apparently, is how best to step out of your car during a robbery. The anti-hijack instructor from carmaker BMW offered several such tips in a lesson for drivers in Johannesburg last week. Consider fitting a luminous emergency release handle in the boot, in case robbers lock you in it. Don't try silly James Bond devices like flame-throwers or slashing blades on the sides of the car: firms that once used to fit them are bankrupt, so maintenance is tricky.

Most important, know the risks and take precautions. According to new national crime figures, carjackings rose 12% last year in Johannesburg, where 2,990 cars were snatched. Crime statistics make such gloomy reading that the government now refuses to publish them more than once a year. The minister for safety and security, Charles Nqakula, says he withholds some statistics since “combating crime does not rely on figures”.

But there are crumbs of comfort hidden in these ones. The most reliable statistic is for murder, which is almost always reported. More than 21,000 people were killed last year, roughly the same number as in 2001. That is worse than some war zones—and is probably still the highest rate in the world. But population growth means that the per capita murder rate dipped a shade. Compared with ten years ago, when political violence was rife, it is much lower. Some other violent crimes, such as rape, also appear to be down, though statistics that depend on reports from the public are less reliable. The police guess they hear of only one rape in three.



Everybody knows that reducing violence more sharply depends on fighting a wide range of problems. Carjacking is mostly organised by syndicates of thieves who export to other bits of Africa. Corrupt customs officials and police let them do so. Most killings take place in townships where drink, drugs and weapons breed violence. Extremely unequal distribution of wealth too often puts temptation—a new BMW that stops at a traffic light, for example—in front of jobless young men with weapons. When caught, criminals are handled by a slow and overburdened justice system: only 18% of murder cases lead to a conviction. Some 180,000 inmates are crammed into prisons built for 110,000.

But some useful measures are being taken. More police are being trained; companies donate cars and equipment. In central Johannesburg, street crime has fallen by 80% in three years and bank robberies have all but stopped after 200 closed-circuit cameras were installed to film every street. The government also proposes a firearms control law to restrict, though not ban, ownership. That might help choke the supply of stolen weapons to crooks; over half of all South Africa's murders are committed with guns.

One somewhat hopeful sign is that very little crime is now political. A decade ago nearly 4,000 deaths were blamed on political clashes, whereas last year just 52 were. At the end of last month the government issued a 500-page report on attacks and murders of farmers, concluding that 1,500 killings since 1991 were largely by robbers without a political motive. White farmers tend to see the attacks as part of a broader plan to chase them out. It is more likely that criminals see remote and ill-protected farms simply as soft targets

[Developer]

Originally posted by moki:
I was a bit surprised to see that Sweden had almost double the number of murders per 100,000 people than the US did -- that certainly clashes with my preconceived notions of Sweden.

That is because the number for Sweden is completely false, as you could easily see if you'd actually go to the Interpol site that has been mentioned as "source". Also note that the murder and homicide rate for Germany used contains attempts. The rate of accomplished murders and homicides in Germany is 1.1/100.000 according to PKS 2002.

Not that I expected a factually correct post by you anyway.

[moki]

Originally posted by Developer:
Not that I expected a factually correct post by you anyway.

Oh give me a break. Just because you disagree with my views on certain things is no reason to start personally attacking me, attempting to paint it like I invent things out of thin air.

As for the "correct numbers", and the article itself (whose veracity you should be attacking, not mine), it's all from the Economist, a very respected publication. I'd be surprised if they were wrong.

Perhaps you're looking at a different year than when the numbers are taken from?

[moki]

Originally posted by Developer:
Not that I expected a factually correct post by you anyway.

Despite the unnecessary attack on myself, rather than the publication presenting the data, you're absolutely right.

I looked up all of the statistics, and they are all accurate in that chart except for Sweden. I think I see what happened though -- the number should be 1.97% -- it looks like someone slipped a decimal point and entered the data in as 10.97%. Looking at the chart, that's exactly what happened, and explains my confusion concerning Sweden.

Regardless, blaming me for this is a bit silly, don'tcha think? And regardless, the article concerns South Africa, and they do indeed have the statistics, such as they are, correct. That's a pretty stunningly high murder rate.

[theolein]

I'm suprised at the murder rate in Sweden as well. I somehow find it difficult to imagine and wonder if there isn't an error there. I did a quick search in google and came up with this link from which I quote:

The murder rate is quite stabile around 110-140 murders/year in Sweden. Please note that the figure 167 is reported murders - some are later found not to be murder so the figure drop if you would look at the death cause statistics instead of the reported crimes.

In a population of around 8 Million that gives a rate of just over 2 per 100 000 which sounds more realistic.

Forgive me for reenforcing your preconcieved notions of Sweden

As for South Africa, that's a sad, a very sad truth. The crime rate is astronomical, and while it has apparently dropped in the last two years, the drop is so insignificant as to be not worthy of mentioning. The question as to why the crime rate is so bad is a good one. There are as many theories on that as I have hairs on my head. Some of them blame the divide of rich and poor, but neglect the fact that most of the mruders occur amongst the country's poorest (which of course get no air time in a magazine like the economist which is only interested in those owning BMWs). Some of them blame it on the approximatley 4 million illegal immigrants, who are certainly in a higher crime bracket, but most of whom just seek a better life. Some of them blame the legacy of Apartheid era violence and lack of respect of human life, and those are the one's I tend to believe the most.

South Africa had an entire generation of children, from around 1979 to 1989, that grew up in a constant state of violence and semi civil war with the police who were at best a bunch of Nazi like murdering thugs, and a total lack of respect for their teachers and any form of authority, whom they accused of collaboration with the white oppressors. That generation is the one that grew up illiterate in language and thus umemployable, and illiterate in social values, like the respect of human life.

Condemning them is easy, but short sighted, and is a phenomenon that has been seen in other countries that used children for soldiers such as Sierra Leone and Liberia. The children see and experience death at such an early age that it becomes second nature to them.

South Africa's only hope is that with consistent policing and consistent policies that it will die down over the years.

[Developer]

I would assume the prevalence of firearms is also a factor.

[moki]

Originally posted by theolein:
As for South Africa, that's a sad, a very sad truth. The crime rate is astronomical, and while it has apparently dropped in the last two years, the drop is so insignificant as to be not worthy of mentioning. The question as to why the crime rate is so bad is a good one.

Tangentially, this article caused me to do some statistics digging on the US. Sadly, the largest glaring statistic here is how racially divided the crime is. Though murder in the US is at its lowest levels since the 1960's, the racial divide remains:

(all from: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm )

Blacks were 6 times more likely than whites to be murdered in 2000



Blacks were over 7 times more likely than whites to commit homicide in 2000



86% of white victims were killed by whites
94% of black victims were killed by blacks

Those are some pretty eye-opening statistics. Is this due to relative poverty? The extremely high rate of black children who are fatherless?

Who knows -- but it would behoove our entire society, as it would in South Africa, to find out what is causing these murders and attempt to fix it.

[moki]

Originally posted by Developer:
I would assume the prevalence of firearms is also a factor.

Apology for attacking me (despite my skepticism of the one statistic that ended up being false) and not the publication that presented the data accepted!

[lemondrop]

I don't buy software from Blind Jews.

[moki]

Originally posted by theolein:
Some of them blame the divide of rich and poor, but neglect the fact that most of the mruders occur amongst the country's poorest (which of course get no air time in a magazine like the economist which is only interested in those owning BMWs).

hrm, I don't know...

http://www.economist.com/search/sear...amp;Submit2=Go

There seem to be a good number of articles in The Economist that note what you have, such as:

The newspapers brim with atrocities: the boy who kept his grandmother manacled inside a metal drum for months so that he could draw her meagre pension; the men who rape children in the belief that sex with a virgin will cure them of AIDS.

The public response is that brutality should be met with brutality. The rich surround themselves with razor-wire and private security guards (who outnumber uniformed policemen three to one). The poor resort to vigilantism. The front page of the Sunday World, a black newspaper, recently showed a photograph of a dead man sitting in a lavatory cubicle, his brains smeared on the wall. The caption explained that he was a thief (of mobile phones) who had shot himself rather than face the lynch mob outside.

The government’s response has been uninspired. The police are badly managed and have a poor record of detective work. Those who succeed in reducing violent crime have their pay docked, on the ground that their job is no longer so dangerous. Prosecutors are demoralised. Only one murderer in six is convicted, and one car-jacker in 50. Mr Mbeki suggests that the problem may be that the police are murdering each other to cover up their own corruption.

As that article seems to suggest, if the system is functioning so badly, and the people who have no money cannot protect themselves and turn to vigilanteism, it makes sense that poor on poor crime would be so epidemic.

[moki]

Originally posted by lemondrop:
I don't buy software from Blind Jews.

Hrm, I'll assume that's directed at me... it might amuse you to note that with a last name like "Welch" it's pretty unlikely I'd be Jewish... I'm mostly Scottish, some Irish, and a good bit of assorted European descent mixed together.

[Troll]

[EDIT] - Damn, part of this post went missing. What I was saying is that there are many reasons for the crime:

1) Wealth differences. 2001 was the first year in which non-whites had a higher income than the white population (15%). The differences are really extreme. You have to go there to see it.

2) Culture of Violence. Apartheid taught people that live has a low value. As a result, there may be as many criminal incidents in SA as elsewhere but they turn violent more quickly. Being killed for the 20 bucks in your wallet is not unheard of.

3) Failure by the SA government to take the problem seriously. They initially adopted the Washington approach and have proved the broken windows syndrome. Lately they've moved over to Guiliani style crime prevention but they lack resources. Hundreds of policemen are killed every year. No one wants to be a cop. In addition, the police force that the new government inherited was designed to serve 6 million of SA's 40 million people. It's difficult to change structures and to turn a force that had some kind of handle on crime that affected 15% of the population into one that serves everyone. [/EDIT]

As you see, these are difficult problems to solve overnight. How do you change the culture of violence or the poverty situation over night? I am encouraged by what I see happening on the ground though. Every time I go back to SA I notice the wealth gap narrowing. There is a strong middle class black population now. They are taking crime fighting more seriously and when you consider the rampant rise in crime that precedes these figures, taking it backwards a bit really is an achievement. But the most important changes are still the social ones. I think the fact that the average person is better off today financially than he was 5 or 10 years ago will pay dividends in the long run. On my last visit, I went to see an African version of Antigone at the WITS Theater. 90% of the audience was young black children. It was amazing to hear them speaking English without a trace of difficulty, discussing the kinds of things that only privileged white kids would have had the education to discuss not that long ago. Outside their mothers and fathers were waiting in C class Mercs and 3 series BMW's to take them home. These kids have contributions to make and something to lose by taking to crime. Giving them the possibility to be taken by their parents to see Antigone, to go home to homework and a roof - that's the best way of stopping crime.

[moki]

Originally posted by Troll:
These kids have contributions to make and something to lose by taking to crime. Giving them the possibility to be taken by their parents to see Antigone, to go home to homework and a roof - that's the best way of stopping crime.

Here I think you hit the nail on the head -- if people have something to lose, and if they feel they will be caught, they're less likely to commit a crime.

It really takes both sides of the equation, though. You can have something to lose, but if you feel you won't be caught/punished, you may commit a crime. If you have nothing to lose, even in a society where the criminal justice system is effective, you may commit a crime.

[finboy]

Originally posted by moki:

As for the "correct numbers", and the article itself (whose veracity you should be attacking, not mine), it's all from the Economist, a very respected publication. I'd be surprised if they were wrong.

Esp. given the Economist's usual street cred with Lefties.

[theolein]

Originally posted by Troll:
[EDIT] - Damn, part of this post went missing. What I was saying is that there are many reasons for the crime:

1) Wealth differences. 2001 was the first year in which non-whites had a higher income than the white population (15%). The differences are really extreme. You have to go there to see it.

2) Culture of Violence. Apartheid taught people that live has a low value. As a result, there may be as many criminal incidents in SA as elsewhere but they turn violent more quickly. Being killed for the 20 bucks in your wallet is not unheard of.

3) Failure by the SA government to take the problem seriously. They initially adopted the Washington approach and have proved the broken windows syndrome. Lately they've moved over to Guiliani style crime prevention but they lack resources. Hundreds of policemen are killed every year. No one wants to be a cop. In addition, the police force that the new government inherited was designed to serve 6 million of SA's 40 million people. It's difficult to change structures and to turn a force that had some kind of handle on crime that affected 15% of the population into one that serves everyone. [/EDIT]

As you see, these are difficult problems to solve overnight. How do you change the culture of violence or the poverty situation over night? I am encouraged by what I see happening on the ground though. Every time I go back to SA I notice the wealth gap narrowing. There is a strong middle class black population now. They are taking crime fighting more seriously and when you consider the rampant rise in crime that precedes these figures, taking it backwards a bit really is an achievement. But the most important changes are still the social ones. I think the fact that the average person is better off today financially than he was 5 or 10 years ago will pay dividends in the long run. On my last visit, I went to see an African version of Antigone at the WITS Theater. 90% of the audience was young black children. It was amazing to hear them speaking English without a trace of difficulty, discussing the kinds of things that only privileged white kids would have had the education to discuss not that long ago. Outside their mothers and fathers were waiting in C class Mercs and 3 series BMW's to take them home. These kids have contributions to make and something to lose by taking to crime. Giving them the possibility to be taken by their parents to see Antigone, to go home to homework and a roof - that's the best way of stopping crime.

Hoezit ou man! Thanks for dropping a note of optimism into the debate there. Reading on the depressing ineptitude of the government back in SA can make me quite depressed sometimes.

I agree on most of those points. The cops are poor and corrupt and the government is inept and corrupt, even though there are many in the ANC that are very dedicated to improving the country.

There are good signs though, amongst those that you mentioned, such as high level corruption in the huge arms purchase deal of a few years back being investigated in the open, and consistent policing starting to take some effect, but I fear, and it does make me fear as well as sad because I love the country with it's vast mixture of cultures, that it will take a generation or two and a change of government to really make changes in SA. And I think that it will be nigh on impossible for any current opposition party to ever get into power.

The opposition, such as the DA, is useless in reaching out to the black majority (Tony Leon could do with a class in communication skills as well as one in languages of his own country) and as such will never make inroads.

But I hope and pray that SA eventually gets there.

[BibleThumper]

Originally posted by moki:


Who knows -- but it would behoove our entire society, as it would in South Africa, to find out what is causing these murders and attempt to fix it.

Hm. Thats an interesting question. Let's do some brainstorming here. Perhaps Africans are genetically predisposed violence?

[Troll]

Originally posted by theolein:
But I hope and pray that SA eventually gets there.

Me too.

There's a lot of negative stuff going on in SA, especially on a political level, but on the ground there's a lot of positive stuff happening too. I don't think it's going to take as long as some people think to fix. Things happen so fast in SA. Next year is the 10th anniversary of the first elections. In ten years a phenomenal amount has changed for the average person. The way people live, the way they work. The opportunities that are being offered. In the current SA context, there is so much opportunity for development; there's so much untapped potential. There's a book out on the positive side of SA and the one think I find myself agreeing with more and more, in my business dealings with SA is the author's assessment that in many respects resembles America after independence. Problems sure, but opportunities too.

Which is not to say that there isn't a lot that I'm very critical of. I do think that the ANC has let its electorate down for example. I think it has damaged the cause by allowing its members to cash in.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by BibleThumper:
Hm. Thats an interesting question. Let's do some brainstorming here. Perhaps Africans are genetically predisposed violence?

You mean the same way whites are genetically predisposed to killing Jews?

-s*

[BibleThumper]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
You mean the same way whites are genetically predisposed to killing Jews?

-s*

That's an interesting point, however Jews ARE whites, and as moki's statistics point out, there is a greater percentage of blacks who kill blacks than whites who kill whites. So I'd probably rule out that possibility.

-s*

[moki]

Originally posted by BibleThumper:
Hm. Thats an interesting question. Let's do some brainstorming here. Perhaps Africans are genetically predisposed violence?

Clearly that's not true, nor is is adding to the discussion.

[BibleThumper]

Originally posted by moki:
Clearly that's not true, nor is is adding to the discussion.

Why not? It's clearly a possibility that's worth investigating. I doubt it's the cause, but who knows. Always keep an open mind, right? Personally, I think it's close minded people like you who are the cause of the disproportionate number of African-Americans in our prisons.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by BibleThumper:
That's an interesting point, however Jews ARE whites, and as moki's statistics point out, there is a greater percentage of blacks who kill blacks than whites who kill whites. So I'd probably rule out that possibility.

-s*

I was being facetious in lieu of outright calling you a racist (which may not be appropriate if all you're doing is trolling).

Why are you signing your post with my shorthand?

-s*

[theolein]

Originally posted by BibleThumper:
That's an interesting point, however Jews ARE whites, and as moki's statistics point out, there is a greater percentage of blacks who kill blacks than whites who kill whites. So I'd probably rule out that possibility.

-s*

Funny then how the your spiritual fathers, the Nazi party and the SS, nice whites guys one and all, managed to escape your attention while they were murdering around six million innocent people. I assume you had better things to do in history class, such as reading your precious book, or jacking off.

Places like Cambodia, Turkey, the Crimean Peninsula etc probably don't mean anything to you, but I'll give you a hint: They weren't black. Another little tip: If you take a look at that chart, you'll see that Russia and Brazil have about the same rates of murder. One of the countries has no black popualtion whatsoever, and the other one has a very large black population.

I know it's too much for that that shrivelled thing between your ears to comprehend (and I wasn't referring to your balls, they're somewhere else), but skin colour has no predisposition to violence.

[eklipse]

Originally posted by theolein:
I know it's too much for that that shrivelled thing between your ears to comprehend (and I wasn't referring to your balls, they're somewhere else), but skin colour has no predisposition to violence.

Classic.

[BibleThumper]

Originally posted by theolein:
Funny then how the your spiritual fathers, the Nazi party and the SS, nice whites guys one and all, managed to escape your attention while they were murdering around six million innocent people. I assume you had better things to do in history class, such as reading your precious book, or jacking off.

Places like Cambodia, Turkey, the Crimean Peninsula etc probably don't mean anything to you, but I'll give you a hint: They weren't black. Another little tip: If you take a look at that chart, you'll see that Russia and Brazil have about the same rates of murder. One of the countries has no black popualtion whatsoever, and the other one has a very large black population.

I know it's too much for that that shrivelled thing between your ears to comprehend (and I wasn't referring to your balls, they're somewhere else), but skin colour has no predisposition to violence.

While you raised some good points in this post, you could spare the direct insults and flames. I'm not at all a Nazi, nor am I racist. I am simply open minded and willing to consider all points of views. Never once did I say blacks are predisposed to violence, I considered it a possibility. Here's another possibility explaining the number of African-Americans in our prison systems: Could closed prejudice and close mindedness possibly play a role? I think it's a likely possibility. Prejudiced assholes like your self who are quick to judge others without fully understanding them. You make me sick, troll.

[BibleThumper]

Originally posted by theolein:
but skin colour has no predisposition to violence.

How do you know for sure? Races are predisposed to certain diseases, why can't they also be predisposed to personality traits?

[BibleThumper]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
I was being facetious in lieu of outright calling you a racist (which may not be appropriate if all you're doing is trolling).

Why are you signing your post with my shorthand?

-s*

I was mocking your "signature". If I want to know your name, I can look to the left of your post. No need to sign.

-s*

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by BibleThumper:
I was mocking your "signature". If I want to know your name, I can look to the left of your post. No need to sign.

Ah, marvellous.

I suppose you don't sign letters, either, since people can look at the envelope to see whom it's from.

Molto original "mock" there, Mr. Thumper.

Sheesh.

-s*

[BibleThumper]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Ah, marvellous.

I suppose you don't sign letters, either, since people can look at the envelope to see whom it's from.

Molto original "mock" there, Mr. Thumper.

Sheesh.

-s*

I don't put return addresses on my envelopes.

-s*

[eklipse]

This is silly.

-s*

[Spliffdaddy]

dammit. that looks wrong.







s-*

[Spliffdaddy]

come on guys.

tell me how to do that 's' thingy the right way.

I feel left out.





*s-




arg

[theolein]

Originally posted by BibleThumper:
While you raised some good points in this post, you could spare the direct insults and flames. I'm not at all a Nazi, nor am I racist. I am simply open minded and willing to consider all points of views. Never once did I say blacks are predisposed to violence, I considered it a possibility. Here's another possibility explaining the number of African-Americans in our prison systems: Could closed prejudice and close mindedness possibly play a role? I think it's a likely possibility. Prejudiced assholes like your self who are quick to judge others without fully understanding them. You make me sick, troll.

Since you seem to be so busy masturbating with your good book, I suppose it would be senseless to ask your to actually read the points I made about Russia and Brazil.

As for the number of blacks in your prisons, I suppose it never occurred to you that poverty and a culture of exclusion have anything to do with it? No, of course not. You, the new budding Einstein of National Socialist Racial theory has grander and better ideas, such which fit in well with concepts such as Herrenrasse and Untermensch.

If I make you sick, then I can sleep well tonight knowing that I've done a good deed for mankind.

[BibleThumper]

Originally posted by theolein:
Since you seem to be so busy masturbating with your good book, I suppose it would be senseless to ask your to actually read the points I made about Russia and Brazil.

As for the number of blacks in your prisons, I suppose it never occurred to you that poverty and a culture of exclusion have anything to do with it? No, of course not. You, the new budding Einstein of National Socialist Racial theory has grander and better ideas, such which fit in well with concepts such as Herrenrasse and Untermensch.

If I make you sick, then I can sleep well tonight knowing that I've done a good deed for mankind.

I think YOU'RE the one who didn't actually read my post. I said in my post that you raised some good points. I didn't once state any racist beliefs, I was simply brainstorming for reasons why our prisons are filled with them. I now have a theory, however. It's people like you who are quick to judge. People who hate what is unfamilar or what they don't understand, and express their hatred without even having a clear understanding.

[Troll]

Originally posted by BibleThumper:
I think YOU'RE the one who didn't actually read my post. I said in my post that you raised some good points. I didn't once state any racist beliefs, I was simply brainstorming for reasons why our prisons are filled with them. I now have a theory, however. It's people like you who are quick to judge. People who hate what is unfamilar or what they don't understand, and express their hatred without even having a clear understanding.

Actually I think Theolein gave you the benefit of the doubt. Anyone who can even entertain the notion that black people might be genetically predisposed to violence is either a moron or a racist.

Not every idea out there is open to debate, BT. Nor is there any intrinsic value in debating every inane point. Sometimes discussing a hairbrain idea does more harm than good in that it legitimises the idea itself. Some ideas are so insanely ludicrous that people who raise them cannot but be doing so for ulterior motives. As Theo pointed out, it's not like the ideas that you want to discuss haven't been thrown about before. There are far more obvious candidates for the reason why there are more blacks in US prisons than whites. Logically, you should eliminate those that have an iota of merit before you move onto a crazy idea like looking into their genes (which has been tried by Nazi Germany and Apartheid South Africa).

I don't see any value in legitimising your argument by going into its merits. Save to say that I don't recall there being two human genome maps nor scientists having identified a gene that makes you violent.

[icruise]

Originally posted by BibleThumper:
Why not? It's clearly a possibility that's worth investigating. I doubt it's the cause, but who knows. Always keep an open mind, right? Personally, I think it's close minded people like you who are the cause of the disproportionate number of African-Americans in our prisons.

The mind boggles...

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Icruise:
The mind boggles...

actually, its consistent. I, for one, am not surprised.

[finboy]

Originally posted by BibleThumper:
How do you know for sure? Races are predisposed to certain diseases, why can't they also be predisposed to personality traits?

White folks are prone to racism, after all. People of other races, by definition, can't be racist (since they're in the minority). Didn't you know that?

Once again, here we go: Define "race." Set forth who gets to define "race" in the future, etc. Anyone who's grown up in poverty in the US South can tell you that behaviors and personalities have nothing whatsoever to do with the amount of melanin in your skin or the language that you speak.

[theolein]

Originally posted by finboy:
White folks are prone to racism, after all. People of other races, by definition, can't be racist (since they're in the minority). Didn't you know that?

Once again, here we go: Define "race." Set forth who gets to define "race" in the future, etc. Anyone who's grown up in poverty in the US South can tell you that behaviors and personalities have nothing whatsoever to do with the amount of melanin in your skin or the language that you speak.

In case you missed it the title of the thread was "Crime in South Africa", not "Crime in the USA". In South Africa, whites are a minority, not "people of other races".

[Sherwin]

Short term solution:



Deterrent through superior firepower.


Long term solution?

---> ?? <---