[Lerkfish]

This New York Times Story (you'll have to register)

highlights a problem we already know about: that Bush is clueless to how the world views him.

of note within the article:

CANBERRA, Australia, Oct. 23 — Minutes after President Bush finished an hourlong meeting with moderate Islamic leaders on the island of Bali on Wednesday, he approached his staff with something of a puzzled look on his face.

"Do they really believe that we think all Muslims are terrorists?" he asked, shaking his head. He was equally distressed, he told them, to hear that the United States was so pro-Israel that it was uninterested in the creation of a Palestinian state living alongside Israel, despite his frequent declarations calling for exactly that.

It was a revealing moment precisely because the president was so surprised.

In his six-day dash from Tokyo to the Philippines to Singapore, Indonesia and Australia, rarely did the searing suspicions of America's intentions — and the intentions of Mr. Bush himself — pierce the president's fearsome security bubble. But when they did, they revealed a huge gulf between how the president views himself, and how Asians view George W. Bush's America.

and...

But even some of Mr. Bush's aides concede that Mr. Bush has only begun to discover the gap between the picture of a benign superpower that he sees, and the far more calculating, self-interested, anti-Muslim America the world perceives as he speeds by behind dark windows.

"On a trip like this he can get a glimpse of it, but only a glimpse," one senior official who sat in on several meetings said. "Of course, when you are moving at warp speed, there isn't a lot of time to think about what you are hearing."

well, no..DUH!
When you insulate the president from news he doesn't want to hear, hide him from protestors and channel only positive thoughts (keep thinking positive, George!)
Then there's going to be a gap between his perceptions and reality.

Do we really need any more evidence that Bush is being "handled"?

Is this what you want in the leader of the country?

[Zimphire]

He can't help it if ignorance is spread in other countries.

Not his fault.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Lerkfish
Do we really need any more evidence that Bush is being "handled"?

I only see evidence that he has a staff, like all US Presidents do.

Presidents are busy people. They don't have time to act as their own travel agent, securing their own sites, planning foreign meetings and speeches, etc.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
He can't help it if ignorance is spread in other countries.

Not his fault.

whose do we fault for his own ignorance? (I mean ignorance in a benign way here, meaning only lack of knowledge)
You're on these boards...are YOU surprised that people have these impressions or that muslims feel threatened by the Bush administration? Is it news to you?

Why should it be news to the President? Doesn't he have a staff that is supposed to inform him? What do you think of a staff, knowing he was going into a country with these attitudes NOT briefing the president on what he might encounter? Are they doing their jobs if they do not?

What is the advantage of sending a president into these situations without a full knowledge of not only the attitudes of those who support him, but those who do not?

If you were president, would you want to be kept in the dark about such matters?

Even if, as you say, those in that country are ignorant...wouldn't it be a good thing for the president to know that so that he could deal with that situation?

[Zimphire]

What I know is, Bush has never said "All Muslims are terrorists"

So if someone thinks he thinks that, it's out of ignorance.

A lot of Muslims feel threatened by anyone that isn't Muslim Lerk,

Though the same can be said for some Christians.

I think the thread in itself is kinda petty.

But hey, that is just me.

BTW Lerk, do you know what kind of toilet paper GW uses?

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
What I know is, Bush has never said "All Muslims are terrorists"

So if someone thinks he thinks that, it's out of ignorance.

A lot of Muslims feel threatened by anyone that isn't Muslim Lerk,

Though the same can be said for some Christians.

I think the thread in itself is kinda petty.

But hey, that is just me.

BTW Lerk, do you know what kind of toilet paper GW uses?

none of which answers my questions...do you want a president in the dark about the attitudes(correct or not) of the countries he travels to?

[Zimphire]

I said I think it's petty to really complain about such a thing.

He has far worse worries in his life at the moment.

Do you think Clinton cared that people from other countries thought he was a moral-less playboy that chased women instead of running the country?

Probably not.

[petehammer]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
A lot of Muslims feel threatened by anyone that isn't Muslim Lerk,

Though the same can be said for some Christians.

Sigh.

Aren't we forgetting a religion/religions here? You can't state that "a lot of muslims feel threatened by anyone that isn't muslim" as an accusation without expecting your own religion to come into play, Z. Glass houses and all.

Why is it you can toss these assertions around, but not take any heat on your religion?

[MacGorilla]

Isn't this the same President who doesn't read newspapers, only getting his news from advisors?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by petehammer:
Sigh.

Aren't we forgetting a religion/religions here? You can't state that "a lot of muslims feel threatened by anyone that isn't muslim" as an accusation without expecting your own religion to come into play, Z. Glass houses and all.

Why is it you can toss these assertions around, but not take any heat on your religion?

Did I not mention Christianity?

[Nonsuch]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
I only see evidence that he has a staff, like all US Presidents do.

"I glance at the headlines, just to get kind of a flavor," [Bush] told Brit Hume of Fox News last month. But, "I rarely read the stories" because "a lot of times there's opinions mixed in with news." Instead, "I get briefed by [White House Chief of Staff] Andy Card and Condi [Rice, the national security adviser] in the morning." The president concluded, "The best way to get the news is from objective sources. And the most objective sources I have are people on my staff who tell me what's happening in the world."

[...]

George W. Bush doesn't really want people to get the news unfiltered. He wants people to get the news filtered by George W. Bush. Or rather, he wants everyone to get the news filtered by the same people who apparently filter it for him. It's an interesting epistemological question how our president knows what he thinks he knows and why he thinks it is less distorted than what the rest of us know or think we know. Every president lives in a cocoon of advisers who filter reality for him, but it's stunning that this president actually seems to prefer getting his take on reality that way.

Bush apparently thinks (if that is the word) that the publicly available media contaminate the news with opinion but Condi Rice and Andy Card are objective reporters. Anyone who has either been a boss or had a boss will find it easier, knowing that Bush believes this, to understand how he can also believe that things are going swimmingly in Iraq. And where does the Rice-Card News Service obtain its uncontaminated information? Bush conceded his shocking suspicion that Rice and Card "probably read the news themselves." They do? Whatever is next?

-- from a Slate article

We've already discussed at length the dangerous fallacy of believing that people beholden to you for their jobs — jobs that grant them uncommon authority and prestige — are going to give you honest, unbiased information.

If it makes you feel good to know that your president scrupulously avoids any information not strictly filtered to conform to his favored ideology and preconceptions, that's your lookout. I find it alarming myself.

I commend the above-cited article to you.

[petehammer]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Did I not mention Christianity?

You did not mention Judaism.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
He can't help it if ignorance is spread in other countries.

Not his fault.

Perhaps not, but he should at least be aware that a gap exists between his perceptions and those of the rest of the world.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I said I think it's petty to really complain about such a thing.

He has far worse worries in his life at the moment.

Many of those worries exist because much of the world doesn't perceive the US as a "benign superpower". Perhaps iaddressing those "misconceptions" rather than bombing them would be more prudent ...

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I said I think it's petty to really complain about such a thing.

He has far worse worries in his life at the moment.

Actually, I'm going to have to call you on saying this is a petty issue....What the president does and says while traveling to other countries is far from petty....that is the essence of diplomacy.
And I'm going to have to call you saying he has far worse worries in his life at the moment. The attitudes of muslim countries IS his worry at the moment....the whole Iraq thingy? Remember that? the whole saber rattling at Syria and Iran...remember that? The whole Saudi Arabia connections with Al Quaida...remember that? the whole palestine/Israel crisis...remember that? The fact that Bin Laden tried to pit ALL of the muslim world against the US in a jihad...remember that?

Lessee....er...what do all of these issues that are at the forefront of Bush's foreign policy have in common.....hm....what you know, Joe? They are all intricately steeped in what the muslim world thinks about the US.

not petty...nope.

[thunderous_funker]

[BlackGriffen]

Sorry, Zim, but there are no amount of apologies to excuse this one. Right or wrong, the perceptions that other nations have of the U.S. effects directly how they interact with us and how many hostiles (terrorists) their populations will turn out.

That the president doesn't know that we have a PR problem, whether the bad PR has a rational/just cause or not, is inexcusable.

This strikes me as similar to Marie Antoinette's famous line, "Let them eat cake." Or am I mistaken in believing that she said that because she had no idea what was going on outside of her insulated world?

BlackGriffen

[einmakom]

For months following the atrocities of 9/11, US officials from President Bush on down repeatedly declared that Islam is a religion
of peace and that no American should think ill of Muslims or their religion because of the terrorist attacks. In fact, Bush said, any Americans who would lash out at Muslims or attempt to intimidate them "represent the worst of humankind, and they should be ashamed of that kind of behavior."

[tie]

From the Pew Research Center: link

U.S. Image (Percent favorable view of U.S.)
(in percent, first Summer 2002, then today)
Great Britain: 75 70
Canada: 72 63
Nigeria: 77 61
Italy: 70 60
South Korea: 53 46
Germany: 61 45
France: 63 43
Russia: 61 36
Brazil: 52 34
Lebanon: 35 27
Indonesia: 61 15
Turkey: 30 15
Pakistan: 10 13
Jordan: 25 1

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by einmakom:
For months following the atrocities of 9/11, US officials from President Bush on down repeatedly declared that Islam is a religion
of peace and that no American should think ill of Muslims or their religion because of the terrorist attacks. In fact, Bush said, any Americans who would lash out at Muslims or attempt to intimidate them "represent the worst of humankind, and they should be ashamed of that kind of behavior."

And, yet, from the perspective of the Muslim world, the US has been attacking Muslim nations without provocation and imprisioning Muslims without charge.

[BlackGriffen]

Originally posted by einmakom:
For months following the atrocities of 9/11, US officials from President Bush on down repeatedly declared that Islam is a religion
of peace and that no American should think ill of Muslims or their religion because of the terrorist attacks. In fact, Bush said, any Americans who would lash out at Muslims or attempt to intimidate them "represent the worst of humankind, and they should be ashamed of that kind of behavior."

What he said means precisely dick to this thread. This is about his ignorance of perceptions, no matter how people came about those perceptions.

BG

[eklipse]

Originally posted by einmakom:
For months following the atrocities of 9/11, US officials from President Bush on down repeatedly declared that Islam is a religion
of peace and that no American should think ill of Muslims or their religion because of the terrorist attacks. In fact, Bush said, any Americans who would lash out at Muslims or attempt to intimidate them "represent the worst of humankind, and they should be ashamed of that kind of behavior."

Yeah......it's kind of like poking someone in the eye while telling them repeatedly: "I'm NOT poking you in the eye!"

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Nonsuch:
We've already discussed at length the dangerous fallacy of believing that people beholden to you for their jobs — jobs that grant them uncommon authority and prestige — are going to give you honest, unbiased information.

If it makes you feel good to know that your president scrupulously avoids any information not strictly filtered to conform to his favored ideology and preconceptions, that's your lookout. I find it alarming myself.

I commend the above-cited article to you.

The above-cited article is an opinion piece, and a highly biased one at that. Even Slate organizes it under the section "Opinion".

Perhaps you want the President spending the better part of his day reading through the nation's and world's newpapers, but I prefer that he actually do his job. I don't think Bush has to read newsreports on the Iraq's progress when his sources are far more informed of the events than some editorial writer sitting at a desk in New York.

Commend yourself for reiterating word-for-word the opinion of someone else, and no more than that.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by BlackGriffen:
This is about his ignorance of perceptions, no matter how people came about those perceptions.

This is about Bush noticing the misperception of Muslims in Indonesia. Of all opinions bywhich I want my President basing his decisions on, I'd rank those of Muslim Indonesians near the bottom of the list.

Still, however, Bush did seem troubled by the misperception. Perhaps he'll initiate some steps to try and clear up misperceptions like these.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Perhaps you want the President spending the better part of his day reading through the nation's and world's newpapers, but I prefer that he actually do his job. I don't think Bush has to read newsreports on the Iraq's progress when his sources are far more informed of the events than some editorial writer sitting at a desk in New York.

well, so....you are saying that you prefer to do his job being informed by his advisors rather than newspapers.
Fair enough...how good of a job are his advisors doing, then? He was caught completely off guard by something he SHOULD have known.

His advisors are NOT doing their job properly. I'm really surprised that you think they are...

[zigzag]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I said I think it's petty to really complain about such a thing.

He has far worse worries in his life at the moment.

Do you think Clinton cared that people from other countries thought he was a moral-less playboy that chased women instead of running the country?

Probably not.

Awareness of the perceptions of the rest of the world is hardly a petty matter for the President and Commander-in-Chief, the single person most responsible for our foreign policy. I mean, that's his friggin' job.

Whether he can correct those perceptions is another matter. I think he could do more in that respect, but even if he can't, it's absurd to suggest that he doesn't even need to be aware of them.

This is the same guy who called the fight against terror a "crusade." This is why some of us lack confidence in his ability to do his job. I sincerely hope he proves us wrong but he ain't exactly inspiring confidence.

Clinton's skirt-chasing has nothing to do with it (the rest of the world didn't care anyway). According to the President himself, we're talking about life-and-death matters here. Of course he should be cognizant of what the rest of the world thinks.

[BlackGriffen]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
This is about Bush noticing the misperception of Muslims in Indonesia. Of all opinions bywhich I want my President basing his decisions on, I'd rank those of Muslim Indonesians near the bottom of the list.

Still, however, Bush did seem troubled by the misperception. Perhaps he'll initiate some steps to try and clear up misperceptions like these.

Except that you concede the very thing that should not have happened: he noticed just then.

Two problems with your post, though:

First: you marginalize them as "some muslims in Indonesia." Guess what, bub, Indonesia has the largest Islamic population in the world. Not to mention that a lot of the terrorism that has been happening post 9/11 has been in Indonesia.

Second: It isn't just Indonesia. Perceptions of the U.S. are falling throughout the world, it just happens to be especially low in Muslim countries.

Like I said before, he has a responsibility to know what the world thinks of the U.S.

But, who gives a damn what a rag tag group of people half a world away thinks? After all, there's nothing they could do to hurt us.......

BlackGriffen

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
Fair enough...how good of a job are his advisors doing, then? He was caught completely off guard by something he SHOULD have known.

His advisors are NOT doing their job properly. I'm really surprised that you think they are...

One of the reasons why the President travels abroad is to communicate. They told him they all thought he thought all Muslims were terrorists, and he told them "no I don't".

What other avenues do Indonesian Muslims have to communicate with Bush, and how high of a priority should Indonesian Muslims be given on the long list of people who wish to have a sit-down chat with the President?

As for his advisors, when Bush deems they are not performing, he will replace them. NOT when you determine when then are functioning poorly (which for you was before he even took office).

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
One of the reasons why the President travels abroad is to communicate. They told him they all thought he thought all Muslims were terrorists, and he told them "no I don't".

What other avenues do Indonesian Muslims have to communicate with Bush, and how high of a priority should Indonesian Muslims be given on the long list of people who wish to have a sit-down chat with the President?

As for his advisors, when Bush deems they are not performing, he will replace them. NOT when you determine when then are functioning poorly (which for you was before he even took office).

it's a little bit of a stretch, isn't it? I mean, you're twisting yourself into a pretzel to defend Bush for being clueless...no matter which way you slice it, whether his advisors should have done a better job or he himself should do his freakin job and brush up on things, to arrive that unprepared for a meeting of state is unpardonable, and frankly incompetent.
Its not like this would be an obscure unknowable thing....like I said, anyone even here on this little message board could have predicted that reaction...

[Nonsuch]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
The above-cited article is an opinion piece, and a highly biased one at that. Even Slate organizes it under the section "Opinion".

Wow. It had completely flown over my head.

I'll try to offer an un-biased opinion piece for your consideration next time.

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Perhaps you want the President spending the better part of his day reading through the nation's and world's newpapers, but I prefer that he actually do his job.

Part of his job is to know what is actually happening in the world, warts and all. It seems apparent to a lot of people (e.g., me and the guy who wrote the Slate piece) that he is not carrying out that responsibility too well, and that the reasons for it are plainly spelled out in Bush's own words.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
it's a little bit of a stretch, isn't it? I mean, you're twisting yourself into a pretzel to defend Bush for being clueless...no matter which way you slice it, whether his advisors should have done a better job or he himself should do his freakin job and brush up on things, to arrive that unprepared for a meeting of state is unpardonable, and frankly incompetent.
Its not like this would be an obscure unknowable thing....like I said, anyone even here on this little message board could have predicted that reaction...

It should be your job to actually read up on the event before making such fraudulent claims based on a single article.

If you had done a little research, you'd have learned that Bush was going to Indonesia to specifically say that the war on terror is not a war on Islam. He did know about the misperception, and he was prepared ahead of time to address that very issue.

Tue, Oct. 21, 2003

President Bush heads Wednesday to Bali, Indonesia, the site of a devastating terrorist attack one year ago, to reassure leaders of the world's largest Muslim nation that his global war on terrorism is not a war on Islam.

Amid extraordinary security, Bush will spend just 3 1/2 hours in Bali, where a terrorist bombing of a nightclub killed 202 people. He is expected to praise Prime Minister Megawati Sukarnoputri's crackdown on terrorists while emphasizing the need for Indonesia to remain on a moderate, democratic path despite internal threats from Islamic militants.

Looks like you and Mr. "NY Times Sanger" are quite motivated in portraying Bush as being 'surprised' to hear of the misperception - when a big reason for the trip was to correct that exact misperception.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Looks like you and Mr. "NY Times Sanger" are quite motivated in portraying Bush as being 'surprised', when a big reason for the trip was to correct that exact misperception.

Or that Mr. Kemper is trying to portray Bush as being "unsurprised"

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
It should be your job to actually read up on the event before making such fraudulent claims based on a single article.

there's that "fraudulent" word again, a favorite of yours to assign to people you disagree with. Not really sure you understand its meaning....
exactly what fraud have I perpetrated, what deceit have I employed? I posted a link, and I commented on it. You posted a different link on a different leg of the trip by a different reporter, and you think that proves the NYT reporter is a liar? Or that I am? keep on twisting, spacefreak. You probably resemble a pretzel at this point. Tell you what, in the future, try not going down the personal attack road....mmmmkay?


again, and even so...this still does not address the question, why are you defending the concept of an ignorant president, one who insulates himself from newspapers and only gets his information from his sycophants?
If that had been Clinton, would you be as supportive of that management style? I doubt it.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
exactly what fraud have I perpetrated, what deceit have I employed? I posted a link, and I commented on it. You posted a different link on a different leg of the trip by a different reporter, and you think that proves the NYT reporter is a liar?

You accused the President and his staff of not doing their job properly, of being incompetent and unprepared for an Indonesian state meeting because Bush was "surprised" that Indonesians thought that Bush felt all Muslims were terrorists.

how good of a job are his advisors doing, then? He was caught completely off guard by something he SHOULD have known. His advisors are NOT doing their job properly.

no matter which way you slice it, whether his advisors should have done a better job or he himself should do his freakin job and brush up on things, to arrive that unprepared for a meeting of state is unpardonable, and frankly incompetent.

The purpose of the meeting in Indonesia - to clear up that exact misperception - was announced before Bush even set foot in Indonesia. Hence, your defamatory accusations are unfounded and have no merit.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
It should be your job to actually read up on the event before making such fraudulent claims based on a single article.

If you had done a little research, you'd have learned that Bush was going to Indonesia to specifically say that the war on terror is not a war on Islam. He did know about the misperception, and he was prepared ahead of time to address that very issue.

Looks like you and Mr. "NY Times Sanger" are quite motivated in portraying Bush as being 'surprised' to hear of the misperception - when a big reason for the trip was to correct that exact misperception.

WOW.

Total smackination.

Somebody help me pick Lerk up off the ground.

Careful. Those prongs are sharp.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
You accused the President and his staff of not doing their job properly, of being incompetent and unprepared for an Indonesian state meeting because Bush was "surprised" that Indonesians thought that Bush felt all Muslims were terrorists.


The purpose of the meeting in Indonesia - to clear up that exact misperception - was announced before Bush even set foot in Indonesia. Hence, your defamatory accusations are unfounded and have no merit.

You are godlike.

Back-to-back Smackination on a level unseen since Simey departed.

In an effort to reduce server load, please refer to the previously posted *SMACKDOWN* image.


(omg, he smacked-down the author of the thread - in his own thread)

*checks the rulebook for confirmation*

yep. it's a go.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
omg, he smacked-down the author of the thread - in his own thread

[christ]

I dunno, but it seems to me like the 'freak actually succeeded in smacking down Dubya rather than Lerk.

A man that is going someplace specifically to correct a perception, has no business being unaware of that perception.

(remember the "Do they really believe that we think all Muslims are terrorists?" he [Bush] asked, shaking his head")

[Zimphire]

No it was a smackdown of the people who assumed without really knowing.

Which proves my point about some people just Bush bashing because they like Bush bashing.

"OMG did you hear Bush only tipped that gal $5!?!" IMPEACH!!!

[christ]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
No it was a smackdown of the people who assumed without really knowing.

Which proves my point about some people just Bush bashing because they like Bush bashing.

"OMG did you hear Bush only tipped that gal $5!?!" IMPEACH!!!

Who assumed?

It looks like a direct quote, which is difficult (for honest folk) to characterise as an assumption.

And you are the first (in this thread) to suggest impeaching him, but I would suggest that impeachment might be a bit extreme for under-tipping. I would reserve it for serious things, like going to war under false pretences. but that's just me.

[chris v]

This is not unlike when Bush asked of the Brazilian president "Oh, you have black people, too?" and all of the squirming gyrations the dittoheads here did to defend their resident airhead in Washington, saying "He doesn't have to know every miniature detail about every tiny third-world country to be an effective foreign policy leader," ignoring the fact that Brazil is not tiny,and it's black population is not a minutia on the scale of things one might know about Brazil.

The Deja Vu is striking.

CV

[eklipse]

Originally posted by chris v:
The Deja Vu is striking.

It would be slightly more acceptable and forgivable if these gaffes were few and far between, unfortunately, there appear to be enough to write a book on - Oh wait, someone already did: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1166536.stm