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spacefreak · Oct 25, 2003, 02:53 PM

The only other Miss Afghanistan was in 1972.

christ · Oct 25, 2003, 02:58 PM

So the US morality has arrived. That was worth getting rid of the Taliban for.

Hooray for America.

lil'babykitten · Oct 25, 2003, 03:01 PM

How long before there is a Miss Iraq?

RooneyX · Oct 25, 2003, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
How long before there is a Miss Iraq?

Saddam's niece wants to be a popstar. True story.

eklipse · Oct 25, 2003, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by RooneyX:
Saddam's niece wants to be a popstar. True story.

Wasn't that Osama's niece?

Uday's Carcass · Oct 25, 2003, 03:24 PM

she could use 5 more lbs.

hot stuff.

RooneyX · 03:45 PM

Originally posted by eklipse:
Wasn't that Osama's niece?

Same ****.

Oops.

Zimphire · 06:07 PM

Yeah women should hide their bodies.

Where are their masks at?!

We should be teaching women to be ashamed of showing their faces and such.

BRussell · Oct 25, 2003, 03:29 PM

Saddam, Osama, Sadama, Ossam, what's the difference? They both attacked the US on 9/11, right?

Here's Miss Afghanistan, 2000:

RooneyX · Oct 25, 2003, 03:45 PM

Originally posted by BRussell:
Saddam, Osama, Sadama, Ossam, what's the difference? They both attacked the US on 9/11, right?

Here's Miss Afghanistan, 2000:

Very hot. Wearing black in the sun can be very hot.

MacNStein · Oct 27, 2003, 06:48 AM

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
How long before there is a Miss Iraq?

Yeah, we should put da smack-down on 'em and not let them show their bodies!

Allah forbid they show their navels!

How's it any of your business if a woman wants to tastefully display her body... or do YOU think she's being exploited, that smile and confident look are a dead giveaway, right? What a horrible thing for her to aspire for something besides cooking and cleaning with a sheet over her head all day.

MacNStein · Oct 27, 2003, 06:53 AM

Anyone else notice how Miss Australia is checking out Miss Argentina's goods?

Don't you hate it when you get caught doing that in public?

shabbasuraj · Oct 27, 2003, 07:11 AM

agreed..

Afganistan looks hungry...

look how thin she is...

lates....

lil'babykitten · Oct 27, 2003, 07:24 AM

posted by MacNStein:
How's it any of your business if a woman wants to tastefully display her body... or do YOU think she's being exploited, that smile and confident look are a dead giveaway, right? What a horrible thing for her to aspire for something besides cooking and cleaning with a sheet over her head all day.

Ah ok, so the best thing a woman can aspire to is walking the streets with practically no clothes on? Is this what American 'liberation' is all about?

This is an example of America enforcing it's cultural ideas on countries that have completely different ones. Displaying such pictures, as if this way is the only way, the 'free way'.

einmakom · Oct 27, 2003, 07:39 AM

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Ah ok, so the best thing a woman can aspire to is walking the streets with practically no clothes on? Is this what American 'liberation' is all about?
This is an example of America enforcing it's cultural ideas on countries that have completely different ones. Displaying such pictures, as if this way is the only way, the 'free way'.

Meanwhile, predominantly Muslim countries are doing better than ever,

The WHO launched its campaign last week in a bid to immunise more than 15 million children in west and central Africa against polio.

The new danger stems from Nigeria, which accounts for nearly half of all polio cases in the world.

But three predominantly Muslim states in northern Nigeria - Kano, Kaduna and Zamfara, have delayed or refused permission following opposition from influential Islamic leaders who allege the oral vaccination is unsafe and part of a secret US plan against Africa.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3216329.stm

lil'babykitten · Oct 27, 2003, 07:53 AM

And that has to do with this because?........

eklipse · Oct 27, 2003, 07:57 AM

Originally posted by einmakom:
Meanwhile, predominantly Muslim countries are doing better than ever,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3216329.stm

Yes, carry on reading:

Datti Ahmed, who is both a medical doctor and the president of Nigeria's Supreme Council for Sharia law, said they needed to check reports that the vaccine was contaminated.

"There were strong reasons to believe that the polio immunisation vaccine was contaminated with anti-fertility drugs, contaminated with certain virus that cause HIV/Aids, contaminated with Simian virus that are likely to cause cancers," he told the BBC World Service's Newshour programme.

Rumours have been circulating in northern Nigeria that the vaccine is part of a US plot to limit the country's population by spreading Aids and rendering people infertile.

When asked about such reports, Dr Ahmed said they might sound insane but they had to be checked out.

kvm_mkdb · Oct 27, 2003, 08:18 AM

Originally posted by MacNStein:
What a horrible thing for her to aspire for something besides cooking and cleaning with a sheet over her head all day.

You mean cooking and cleaning without a sheet over her head all day?

Face it: those Miss * contests are inherently sexist, objectifying women and reducing them to mere 'walk, poise and talent' bimbos - hardly a way to measure how 'liberated' women in certain countries are.

einmakom · Oct 27, 2003, 08:23 AM

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
And that has to do with this because?........

It's one thing to set up a cultural more that encourages women to not display themselves as a sexual being to people that she is not in a committed romantic relationship with.

It is entirely another to coerce such behavior through law. If women wish to act in such a manner, you can believe it shameful, but to punish by law is likewise wrong.

Meanwhile, in other parts of the world, the same folks that are suspicious of America because the cultural more permits women to dress as sexual beings to people they are not romantically involved with are suspecting America of trying to infect populations with HIV and AIDS as well as sterilise populations.

Both suspicions are outlandishly misplaced, and go to reinforce the mistaken 'America against Islam' stance that folks like yourself and eklipse elucidated when discussing Matahir's comments not long ago.

It occurs to me as unusual that people so interested in seeking peace would seek out every means to be divisive.

eklipse · Oct 27, 2003, 08:47 AM

Originally posted by einmakom:
It's one thing to set up a cultural more that encourages women to not display themselves as a sexual being to people that she is not in a committed romantic relationship with.

It is entirely another to coerce such behavior through law. If women wish to act in such a manner, you can believe it shameful, but to punish by law is likewise wrong.

Meanwhile, in other parts of the world, the same folks that are suspicious of America because the cultural more permits women to dress as sexual beings to people they are not romantically involved with are suspecting America of trying to infect populations with HIV and AIDS as well as sterilise populations.

Both suspicions are outlandishly misplaced, and go to reinforce the mistaken 'America against Islam' stance that folks like yourself and eklipse elucidated when discussing Matahir's comments not long ago.

It occurs to me as unusual that people so interested in seeking peace would seek out every means to be divisive.

There's is nothing inherently wrong with a non-muslim woman participating in a Ms. * contest, but, you have to question the decision to represent a country like Afghanistan - with a 99% Muslim population. Such a move is guaranteed to be inflammatory and insulting to the majority of Afghanis.

RooneyX · Oct 27, 2003, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Ah ok, so the best thing a woman can aspire to is walking the streets with practically no clothes on? Is this what American 'liberation' is all about?
This is an example of America enforcing it's cultural ideas on countries that have completely different ones. Displaying such pictures, as if this way is the only way, the 'free way'.

Your dad: 'Sharmuta, if you go out with hair showing from hijab one more time, by Allah I send you to the fire! And stay away from the kaffir men!'

And this happens to many Muslim women. Of course, I'm against exploitation of women full stop, whether it is religious oppression or uncontrolled and immoral porn.

(there is such a thing as moral, artistic nudity and I'm all for that).

Millennium · Oct 27, 2003, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Ah ok, so the best thing a woman can aspire to is walking the streets with practically no clothes on? Is this what American 'liberation' is all about?

No, not in the least. No one pretends that this is the best thing a woman can aspire to (well, a few idiots do, but nobody takes them seriously nowadays).

Nevertheless, some women do aspire to it. I don't claim to understand why they do; it makes no sense to me. But the fact remains that they do.

Who am I -who is anyone, for that matter- to say that she should be unable to do this? She is not a prostitute, and brings harm to no one, so it is not our place to judge her as a criminal. If indeed it is an abomination against God, then He will pass His judgment in due time. The rest is just not in our jurisdiction.

This is an example of America enforcing it's cultural ideas on countries that have completely different ones. Displaying such pictures, as if this way is the only way, the 'free way'.

Displaying such pictures does not imply that it is the only way, only that it is a way. One of many. It is not a way that I understand, but this does not mean I have the right to declare it invalid.

RooneyX · Oct 27, 2003, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by Millennium:

Nevertheless, some women do aspire to it. I don't claim to understand why they do; it makes no sense to me. But the fact remains that they do.

Money and attention. And as long as there are people who will do anything for those two, there will always be someone to exploit them.

And Lil'baby kitten, peace be upon her, should also note prostitution and pornography does exist in Islamic nations and because it is kept from the public eye it goes unchecked and the conditions those women live in is even worse. It's a combination of slavery and murder. Women just 'disappear'.

And if you go to some Saudi 'men only' market places they treat those women with such contempt they are looked upon as lower than animals. A friend of mine who served in the British Army was stationed in Kuwait for a while and told me about what they do to women there, such as the 'donkey game' which is too disgusting to mention here or on any website.

lil'babykitten · Oct 27, 2003, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by RooneyX:
Your dad: 'Sharmuta, if you go out with hair showing from hijab one more time, by Allah I send you to the fire! And stay away from the kaffir men!'

Asshole school finished early today I see.

Perhaps you should ask Millennium for some tips on how to respond to someone, and I might actually bother to reply in substance to you.

RooneyX · Oct 27, 2003, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Asshole school finished early today I see.

Is that why you're posting at this time?

Was there something wrong with me giving a balanced view even if it feels harsh to you?

I recall you using words like '****' and asshole quite often. Obviously Islam didn't teach you neitiquette. How will you convert the infidel speaking like that? You can't charge jizyah anymore you know.

christ · Oct 27, 2003, 10:39 AM

Originally posted by Millennium:
... some women do aspire to it [walking the streets with practically no clothes on]. I don't claim to understand why they do; it makes no sense to me. But the fact remains that they do.

Who am I -who is anyone, for that matter- to say that she should be unable to do this?

But if same women "aspire to walking the streets with no clothes on" your US law forbids this. Who are you -who is anyone, for that matter- to say that they should be unable to do this?

The fact is that different cultures have different rules and mores. Your US law allows more displayed female (and male) flesh than other countries: Why is it that your idea of 'enough' should be imposed on the rest of the world, particularly the Muslim bit?

lil'babykitten · Oct 27, 2003, 10:41 AM

Originally posted by Millennium:
Nevertheless, some women do aspire to it. I don't claim to understand why they do; it makes no sense to me. But the fact remains that they do.

Who am I -who is anyone, for that matter- to say that she should be unable to do this? She is not a prostitute, and brings harm to no one, so it is not our place to judge her as a criminal. If indeed it is an abomination against God, then He will pass His judgment in due time. The rest is just not in our jurisdiction.

I don't like seeing women reduce themselves to such a level.
I would not however go to any great length to bar them from doing such a thing. It is totally their choice and they should have the freedom to express themselves however they wish. I was not a proponent of the way in which women were treated under the Taliban either. It is a woman's choice whether she choses to cover herself or not.

Originally posted by Millennium:
Displaying such pictures does not imply that it is the only way, only that it is a way. One of many. It is not a way that I understand, but this does not mean I have the right to declare it invalid.

IMO, displaying these pictures is wrong. Afghanistan is a predominantly Muslim country. The religion teaches women to behave and dress modestly. That is not such a bad idea. Instead, by showing these pictures, they claim the Afghanis are now 'free' because the women can walk about like that. All this does is add to the Western misconception about Islam and it's apparent 'oppression of women'. Why not show some compassion to the differing religious beliefs held in such countries instead of presenting a lopsided portrayal of 'another way'? Why not focus on, for example, how women can now go to school and get an education. Something that Islam promotes and the Taliban did not. That was the difference. The Taliban enforced rules that they claimed were Islamic-they were not. Yet, so many people confuse what was happening under the Taliban with what Islam is about.

ThinkInsane · Oct 27, 2003, 10:58 AM

Before anyone gets their panties too bunched up about the US morality leading to women in Afghanistan prancing around in beauty pageants half naked, you should do a little research on the lady in question, or at least read the same thread in the lounge. She's a Kabul native, that has lived in California since 1996. She hopes to one day be able to return to Kabul. I would say that her hopes of competing in beauty pageants was fostered right here in the US, not in Afghanistan.

And why is this a "US morality' issue? Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Argentina and Austria right there behind her? Or is that the US's fault too?

RooneyX · Oct 27, 2003, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
IMO, displaying these pictures is wrong. Afghanistan is a predominantly Muslim country. The religion teaches women to behave and dress modestly. That is not such a bad idea. ..... Yet, so many people confuse what was happening under the Taliban with what Islam is about.

Contradiction above. First you defend Taliban/Wahabi dress codes and then say the Taliban don't represent Islam.

I'd advise you to take a look at India which has the world's second highest Muslim population. There they are heavily westernized and some predict that in 20 years Bombay/Mumbai will be the most technologically developed city in the world and also the most populous. There they have lots of American influence yet both Hindu and Muslim women there maintain the best of their traditions while also embracing modern social values, dress codes and liberal beliefs.

Also in Jewish culture the covering of the hair and hiding of the legs still goes on amongst the religious. Except here women wear wigs instead of hijab or burka. Other women dress how they want, modern and look beautiful. They haven't become degraded in any way. Israelis have maintained a balance of tradition and modernism that many Muslim nations have yet to do.

Lebanon and Syria also have liberal dress codes, as do many parts of Iraq. Iran under the Shah liberated women but of course the Ayatollah and his followers weren't having any of that.

So if India, Israel and some Muslim nations can do it there's no reason why the rest can't. This fundamentalist idea that covering your head and body is 'modest' is silly. Many Muslim women are beautiful, especially compared to the men. Perhaps the men should be the ones covering themselves up and being 'modest'.

I think fundamentalist and fanatical ideas are based on a conspiracy theory that the West, and America in particular, wants all daughters of Islam to run around naked and have no sense of culture. This is silly, like saying 'Great Satan' or 'Jews rule the world by proxy'. It's childish paranoia.

MacNStein · Oct 27, 2003, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Ah ok, so the best thing a woman can aspire to is walking the streets with practically no clothes on? Is this what American 'liberation' is all about?
This is an example of America enforcing it's cultural ideas on countries that have completely different ones. Displaying such pictures, as if this way is the only way, the 'free way'.

If that's what she wants to do, it's her damned business.

MacNStein · Oct 27, 2003, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by kvm_mkdb:
You mean cooking and cleaning without a sheet over her head all day?

Face it: those Miss * contests are inherently sexist, objectifying women and reducing them to mere 'walk, poise and talent' bimbos - hardly a way to measure how 'liberated' women in certain countries are.

And yet, there's always many more that are wanting to participate... how terrible.

Sherwin · Oct 27, 2003, 11:34 AM

Surely, any religion which promotes the hiding of God's creation is wrong? What exactly are these religions saying? That God's creation is inherently evil and must be covered? That the sight of a naked (or half naked) woman is so damaging that it will drive everyone to do evil?

God created people with no clothes on. I would suggest that anyone believing that God wants us to dress "modestly" is a victim of their own filthy perversity.

spacefreak · Oct 27, 2003, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by kvm_mkdb:
Face it: those Miss * contests are inherently sexist, objectifying women and reducing them to mere 'walk, poise and talent' bimbos - hardly a way to measure how 'liberated' women in certain countries are.

It is the fact that they can now do whatever they want that makes this photo exemplary of Afghanistan's new freedom.

Those who feel it is demeaning to women - they are not obliged to participate. But those who wish to experience the different flavors that life has to offer, well...that's what freedom is all about.

lil'babykitten · Oct 27, 2003, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by RooneyX:
Contradiction above. First you defend Taliban/Wahabi dress codes and then say the Taliban don't represent Islam.

Nope just a lack of reading comprehension skills on your part. Islam teaches women to dress modestly, it does not force them, or give permission for their husbands to kill them if they don't etc etc. The Taliban forced all women to cover from head to toe. There were repercussions for those who didn't. The Taliban's actions were un-Islamic.

Originally posted by RooneyX:
This fundamentalist idea that covering your head and body is 'modest' is silly.

It is not a 'fundamentalist idea'.
If you think the idea of being modest is 'silly' then that is your opinion.

lil'babykitten · Oct 27, 2003, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by MacNStein:
If that's what she wants to do, it's her damned business.

Indeed it is.

spacefreak · Oct 27, 2003, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Ah ok, so the best thing a woman can aspire to is walking the streets with practically no clothes on? Is this what American 'liberation' is all about?

See my explanation above.

This is an example of America enforcing it's cultural ideas on countries that have completely different ones. Displaying such pictures, as if this way is the only way, the 'free way'.

America neither 'enforced' it's cultural ideas by forcing this woman to participate, nor did America display this picture as if this is the 'only way'. It was taken by a photographer covering the event.

Just because you don't like the event, or the US-led liberation of Afghanistan from taliban rule, doesn't mean a woman should not be able to participate if she desires.

lil'babykitten · Oct 27, 2003, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
And why is this a "US morality' issue? Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Argentina and Austria right there behind her? Or is that the US's fault too?

Because Afghanistan was apparently 'liberated' by the US. The title of the thread is 'Miss Afghanistan' which I suppose is why Argentina and Austria are not in question. Not sure that the US and those countries are connected.

RooneyX · Oct 27, 2003, 11:58 AM

Originally posted by Sherwin:
Surely, any religion which promotes the hiding of God's creation is wrong? What exactly are these religions saying? That God's creation is inherently evil and must be covered? That the sight of a naked (or half naked) woman is so damaging that it will drive everyone to do evil?

God created people with no clothes on. I would suggest that anyone believing that God wants us to dress "modestly" is a victim of their own filthy perversity.

EXACTLY. Anyone who sees a nude person and can't control their feelings about it is the real pervert (or a horny bugger), not the nude person.

The whole 'cover yourself up and be modest' argument doesn' work because it implies the rule maker can't stand the sight of nudity. One must ask 'that' person why they can't handle nudity as being modest. And what's nudity, I'm 100 percent covered in human leather when not dressed in anything else!

RooneyX · Oct 27, 2003, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Nope just a lack of reading comprehension skills on your part. Islam teaches women to dress modestly, it does not force them, or give permission for their husbands to kill them if they don't etc etc. The Taliban forced all women to cover from head to toe. There were repercussions for those who didn't. The Taliban's actions were un-Islamic.

And when it happens outside Afghanistan, in Iran, in Saudi Arabia, in other countries and even in the homes of Muslims who live in many other nations, then that must be unIslamic as well according to what you've said above.

And remember, this is not unique to Islam so don't think you're getting an Islam bashing here (as you guys tend to get paranoid that you are always on the recieving end of a conspiracy).

lil'babykitten · Oct 27, 2003, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by Sherwin:
I would suggest that anyone believing that God wants us to dress "modestly" is a victim of their own filthy perversity.

That's some twisted logic you have there.

lil'babykitten · Oct 27, 2003, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by RooneyX:
And when it happens outside Afghanistan, in Iran, in Saudi Arabia, in other countries and even in the homes of Muslims who live in many other nations, then that must be unIslamic as well according to what you've said above.

Exactly.

Sherwin · Oct 27, 2003, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
That's some twisted logic you have there.

Yep. And to prove it, I'm just about to go strap a bomb to myself and kill people who don't agree with me. Born out of the same logic, you see. Can't help myself.

-----

If you can't admire God's perfect creation in all its naked glory without wanting to go out and rape the nearest puppy then there's something wrong with you. It really is that simple.

The default state of mankind is naked. Clothing is a human construct. Like MacDonalds. And AK47s.

spacefreak · Oct 27, 2003, 12:19 PM

Originally posted by Sherwin:
Yep. And to prove it, I'm just about to go strap a bomb to myself and kill people who don't agree with me. Born out of the same logic, you see. Can't help myself.

You should instead coerce and order other people's children to become suicide bombers. Why hurt yourself or your own family when you can achieve the same result with strangers' children?

When's the last time you heard of a suicide bomber being related to Arafat, PLO leadership, or even Hamas leadership?

kvm_mkdb · Oct 27, 2003, 01:31 PM

Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
She's a Kabul native, that has lived in California since 1996. She hopes to one day be able to return to Kabul. I would say that her hopes of competing in beauty pageants was fostered right here in the US, not in Afghanistan.

Ah. Thank you ThinkInsane, for bringing things back into perspective.
So this 'Miss Afghanistan' is a US citizen, elected by a US jury to represent the country she was born in.

Nothing to see here, move along...

thunderous_funker · Oct 27, 2003, 01:50 PM

So what does a Californian wearing a bikini at a resort in Manila have to do with "liberating" Afghanistan???

Lerkfish · Oct 27, 2003, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
So what does a Californian wearing a bikini at a resort in Manila have to do with "liberating" Afghanistan???

because the world is whack.

eklipse · Oct 27, 2003, 02:14 PM

Originally posted by spacefreak:
It is the fact that they can now do whatever they want that makes this photo exemplary of Afghanistan's new freedom.

No they can't 'do what ever they want' - not without consequences.

Those who feel it is demeaning to women - they are not obliged to participate. But those who wish to experience the different flavors that life has to offer, well...that's what freedom is all about.

When 'those who feel it is demeaning to women' represent about 99% of the population, and this woman is apparently representing them, there is bound to be trouble.

thunderous_funker · Oct 27, 2003, 02:23 PM

Problems persist for the Afghan women not living in California

lil'babykitten · Oct 27, 2003, 02:53 PM

but...but....I thought they had been liberated!

christ · Oct 27, 2003, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by Sherwin:
...God created people with no clothes on. I would suggest that anyone believing that God wants us to dress "modestly" is a victim of their own filthy perversity.

...which includes all western nations. All nations (as far as I aware) have public decency laws. (Southern Baptists still require women to not wear trousers to Church)

This argument is therefore obtuse.

Your country has public decency laws, but that are more lax than those of another country/ culture, so the other country is wrong. Bzzzt wrong answer. To each culture their own.

And parading Miss Southern California in a sash that says 'Miss Somewhere Else Where It Is Illegal To Dress Like This' is just plain inflammatory.