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kvm_mkdb · Nov 7, 2003, 08:52 PM

TIKRIT, Iraq (AP) -- It's payback time for U.S. forces operating in Tikrit, Iraq.
That's where an Army Black Hawk helicopter was apparently shot down by insurgents, killing all six U.S. soldiers aboard.
In retaliation, U.S. troops backed by Bradley fighting vehicles swept through neighborhoods before dawn.
They blasted the houses of suspected insurgents with machine guns and heavy weapons fire.
An American commander said the offensive was meant to remind Tikrit that the military still has teeth and claws and will use them.
U.S. forces also fired mortars and U.S. jets dropped at least three 500-pound bombs around the crash site in an obvious show of force.
The retaliation capped a week in which 32 Americans have been killed, including those aboard the downed Black Hawk.

http://www.news24houston.com/content...asp?ArID=18326

mr. natural · Nov 7, 2003, 09:37 PM

"Bring 'em on."

Zimphire · Nov 7, 2003, 09:41 PM

Yeah they are just slaughtering us by the thousands a day.

They are outnumbering us on everything!

If there was a war, which there isn't.

They are committing suicide.

Forever. Constantly.

chris v · Nov 7, 2003, 09:43 PM

I don't think just blowing things up at random is the answer to the difficulties the military is having. Strafing houses of "suspected" insurgents seems particularly egregious. In what manner did they come to suspect them (I.E. were they informed on by neighbors), and were there families living in these houses? This sort of stuff seems destined to raise and inflame the kind of resentment that leads to further insurgency.

CV

OldManMac · Nov 7, 2003, 10:08 PM

Originally posted by mr. natural:
"Bring 'em on."

LMAO! Haven't seen that one in a while!

Troll · Nov 8, 2003, 04:04 AM

Article 33 of the Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilians

No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.

Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited.

So, legally, the US is not allowed to punish or intimidate anyone for offences they have not personally committed. The US Army has admitted here that their aim was to intimidate the town. That is a breach of the Convention because it is intimidation of people who have not committed an offence. Unless of course, the whole town participated in the Blackhawk attack. Reminds me of Israel's tactics in destroying olive and fruit tree orchards and demolishing houses to punish the Palestinian Resistance. But let's be honest, the US has shown flagrant disregard for international law, including the Geneva Conventions since Bush came to power, so presenting a legal argument, to the extent that Bush could even understand it, is not going to get us anywhere.

So how about some common sense then? Are they going to weaken the Iraqi Resistance by terrorising and intimidating the civilian population or is that going to make the population more resolute to help the Resistance rid Iraq of its occupiers? If the US has resorted to trying to beat the Resistance by punishing civilians, then I believe that the war is lost. Because you can't beat the civilian population without committing genocide. Israel is learning that; every country that has ever faced a resistance has learned that. If that's what's happening here then Iraq will eventually be freed, but not by the US.

sanity assassin · Nov 8, 2003, 05:26 AM

Well, my personal thoughts are that I hope the Iraqis give a good as they get, fair game to me. Sorry for all the poor soldiers involved, on both sides, I hate killing, but to see the US stomp all over another sovereign nation just disgusts me.

eklipse · Nov 8, 2003, 05:52 AM

Looks like the resistance is set to gain a few more recruits.

Face Ache · Nov 8, 2003, 07:29 AM

Originally posted by Troll:
If that's what's happening here then Iraq will eventually be freed, but not by the US.

But the US cannot afford to lose The War on Terror.

(They've already made the T-shirts.

)

Lerkfish · Nov 8, 2003, 07:55 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Yeah they are just slaughtering us by the thousands a day.

They are outnumbering us on everything!

If there was a war, which there isn't.

They are committing suicide.

Forever. Constantly.

???

were you trying to say something coherent?

kvm_mkdb · Nov 8, 2003, 08:02 AM

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
???

were you trying to say something coherent?

He can't answer. His head exploded shortly after he posted that.

lil'babykitten · Nov 8, 2003, 08:08 AM

"A show of force"

How pathetic.

kvm_mkdb · Nov 8, 2003, 08:23 AM

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
How pathetic.

Yup. A disgraceful show of impotence - like a blind giant stomping his feet.

amsalpemkcus · Nov 8, 2003, 08:27 AM

Yay! give em hell!! cant see what else they can do other than respond and wipe the place clean of insurgents. hope the seal tikrit real good and set up a huge garrison in the middle of the town. I believe might is right where there is chaos.

lil'babykitten · Nov 8, 2003, 08:45 AM

You know recent developments in Iraq show a cycle of violence similar to what we see in Palestine.

The US invade, and for a while it appears as though it is a walkover. Iraqis start resisting, the US retaliates with even more force. I wonder how far we'll get in to next week before the Iraqis get their revenge.

Stability? what a joke.

Mohammed Atef · Nov 8, 2003, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
You know recent developments in Iraq show a cycle of violence similar to what we see in Palestine.

The US invade, and for a while it appears as though it is a walkover. Iraqis start resisting, the US retaliates with even more force. I wonder how far we'll get in to next week before the Iraqis get their revenge.

Stability? what a joke.

there was a big article in Time (?) about how things are generally ok over there in the 'sand box'. gotta remember, though, that it doesn't take many folks with kalashnikovs, rpgs, and IEDs (improvised explosive devices) to stir up trouble and take out coalition and american soldiers. and there are enough pissed-off baathists and saddam wankers to cause plenty of trouble.

two things will happen: (1) the US will crush the terrorist resistance before it begings major pullbacks, or (2) the US will make Iraqi forces strong and numerous enough to secure their own country before the US pulls most of the troops out.

amsalpemkcus · Nov 8, 2003, 12:25 PM

I think an Iraqi government is possible if you can isolate the North from the rest of the country. The Shia majority in the south is relatively peaceful. Besides, although the Shias have been the majority in Iraq the Sunnis have exploited them consistently over the years. Sunnis have to understand that they can either live in peace without ambitions to grab power if they want to be a part of Iraq or suffer the consequences of abetting violence and terrorism, in which case they can have their Tikrit and live violently ever after. Get my point?

Spliffdaddy · Nov 8, 2003, 12:33 PM

Heh

Some of you folks are gonna be miserable for your entire lives unless you learn to deal with your envy of America.

macvillage.net · Nov 8, 2003, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by Troll:
So, legally, the US is not allowed to punish or intimidate anyone for offences they have not personally committed. The US Army has admitted here that their aim was to intimidate the town. That is a breach of the Convention because it is intimidation of people who have not committed an offence. Unless of course, the whole town participated in the Blackhawk attack. Reminds me of Israel's tactics in destroying olive and fruit tree orchards and demolishing houses to punish the Palestinian Resistance. But let's be honest, the US has shown flagrant disregard for international law, including the Geneva Conventions since Bush came to power, so presenting a legal argument, to the extent that Bush could even understand it, is not going to get us anywhere.

So how about some common sense then? Are they going to weaken the Iraqi Resistance by terrorising and intimidating the civilian population or is that going to make the population more resolute to help the Resistance rid Iraq of its occupiers? If the US has resorted to trying to beat the Resistance by punishing civilians, then I believe that the war is lost. Because you can't beat the civilian population without committing genocide. Israel is learning that; every country that has ever faced a resistance has learned that. If that's what's happening here then Iraq will eventually be freed, but not by the US.

Technically, nobody is going to call the US in violation... so it doesn't really matter.

swrate · Nov 8, 2003, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
Technically, nobody is going to call the US in violation... so it doesn't really matter.

losing one's nerves and killing....

why will nobody call the US in violation?:
:the ones who decided on the target.

wouldn't you call that terrorism? terrorizing populations?

but now, when one loses one's nerves one commits mistakes.
POW's
all should have the right to justice.

so why are violations from some nations admitted, and from other nations condemned?

Is it just because its Tilkrit? Interest of many nations?
la route de l'or noir.

swrate · Nov 8, 2003, 01:53 PM

Originally posted by swrate:
losing one's nerves and killing....

why will nobody call the US in violation?:
:the ones who decided on the target.

wouldn't you call that terrorism? terrorizing populations?

but now, when one loses one's nerves one commits mistakes.
POW's
all should have the right to justice.

so why are violations from some nations admitted, and from other nations condemned?

Is it just because its Tilkrit? Interest of many nations?
la route de l'or noir.

addenda: wouldn't the whole bush dam-inistration be in prison if they were in Russia?