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Axo1ot1 · Nov 19, 2003, 01:23 AM

Can someone give me a good explanation as to why there is all this animosity towards France? I see people bashing France all the time on these boards. I don't get it at all. France is an awesome country, and we probably wouldn't have a U.S.A. if the French hadn't given us a hand during the American Revolution.

I hear the complaint that the French are elitist, snobby and rude. That's bullshit. If a bunch of people who didn't speak the language were constantly touring around your country acting like everyone should speak their language, wouldn't you be frustrated? The French strike me as a proud people. Americas foreign policy seems to involve always being arrogant and pushing other nations around. I haven't seen much of that from the French lately.

Another complaint is that they wouldn't support the U.S. going into Iraq. Well the President of the U.S. LIED and look where it got us. We have Americans dying all the time now because we're occupying an extremely unstable country. The way I see it, the French were smart enough to call Bush's bluff, but a lot of Bushie's don't want to admit that. Just admit it. Seriously.

Cipher13 · Nov 19, 2003, 01:41 AM

It's nothing personal.

The French are just like the 'class clown'.

That's all.

Chemmy · Nov 19, 2003, 01:43 AM

Ignorant bandwagon patriots who believe anything they're told repeat the same hilarious tripe they've been spoonfed.

FRANCE IS ANTI-FREEDOM! THEY LOVE SADDAM HUSSEIN AND TERRORISM!!!

nonhuman · Nov 19, 2003, 01:43 AM

I've been to France a several times. I've had the bad experiences with the French that people claim prove the French are horrible people. I've also had very good experiences. Nice and Montpellier are some of the nices cities I have ever been to, and the people there were wonderful. I've also received pretty horrible treatment in small towns in the country. The French, like anyone else, are made up of people. As such, they are both good and bad.

[edit] appologies for the drukneninses[/edit]

Zimphire · Nov 19, 2003, 01:59 AM

Originally posted by Axo1ot1:
Can someone give me a good explanation as to why there is all this animosity towards France? I see people bashing France all the time on these boards. I don't get it at all. France is an awesome country, and we probably wouldn't have a U.S.A. if the French hadn't given us a hand during the American Revolution.

And France would be speaking German if it wasn't for the help of the US.

I hear the complaint that the French are elitist, snobby and rude. That's bullshit.

Have you been to France? I haven't. But I HAVE talked to many people in France. While some of them were nice as can be, many were pretentiously arrogant.

Not that we don't have those in the US too.

If a bunch of people who didn't speak the language were constantly touring around your country acting like everyone should speak their language, wouldn't you be frustrated?

Ever been to Washington DC lately?
And I am not talking about the tourists.

The French strike me as a proud people. Americas foreign policy seems to involve always being arrogant and pushing other nations around. I haven't seen much of that from the French lately.

Yeah how dare we push bullies around!

And you haven't seen that much of that from the French because they have no backbone.

France had it's conquering days... Unlike France, the US isn't out to conquer the world.

Another complaint is that they wouldn't support the U.S. going into Iraq. Well the President of the U.S. LIED and look where it got us.

So you know that Bush willingly and knowingly LIED on purpose? Really?

Funny the people I have read that know more about it than you still haven't came to that conclusion.

Actually the only people I hear making such a baseless accusations are liberals and Bush haters.

We have Americans dying all the time now because we're occupying an extremely unstable country.

Would it be better if we just stayed here and had many many more Iraqis die not only in the next two years, but for decades to come? Or maybe even worse?

If you had a choice of killing off a busload of 20 people, to save a building full of 5,000 people, which would you choose?

While yes, those 20 people are people too, and they too deserve a right to live, you have to make a decision.

And then when those 20 people purposely signed up for a service that they knew could very well get them killed, you see my point.

The way I see it, the French were smart enough to call Bush's bluff, but a lot of Bushie's don't want to admit that. Just admit it. Seriously.

No, The French had too many business deals with Saddam and were afraid of losing tons of money.

It had nothing to do with calling Bush's bluff.

rjenkinson · Nov 19, 2003, 02:09 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
And France would be speaking German if it wasn't for the help of the US.[/B]

and there wouldn't have been an american revolution without the french one.

-r.

nonhuman · Nov 19, 2003, 02:12 AM

Originally posted by rjenkinson:
and there wouldn't have been an american revolution without the french one.

-r.

Huh? I thought the American Revolution came first. Maybe it's the liquor, but I specifically remember having a conversation about this with a friend of mine who was a Poli Sci major just a coupe days ago.

Sherwin · Nov 19, 2003, 02:14 AM

I like Bush. I like the French.

Certainly the French think differently (i.e. they think in French), but if you know how to handle it and accept their (slight) differences as a positive, there's no problem.

- - e r i k - - · Nov 19, 2003, 02:14 AM

France is a beautiful country and the french have all the right in the world to be proud of it. However, they do create a language barrier by refusing to learn another international language. Same thing with the italians. And hey, even Americans!

Sherwin · Nov 19, 2003, 02:33 AM

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
France is a beautiful country and the french have all the right in the world to be proud of it. However, they do create a language barrier by refusing to learn another international language. Same thing with the italians. And hey, even Americans!

I like Norwegians too... Even ones who beg by trying to get you to tip them for their posts!

DigitalEl · Nov 19, 2003, 02:40 AM

Originally posted by Chemmy:
Ignorant bandwagon patriots who believe anything they're told repeat the same hilarious tripe they've been spoonfed.

Well said. I have no problem with the French.

Some say they're "snooty" or "arrogant." Well, I've met a lot of Americans who fit that description. Ever driven a mere Toyota through Scottsdale, Arizona or in Orange County, California?

Last time I checked, an ally, a friend could have an opinion opposite your own. It doesn't mean they're no longer a friend. What is this, the third grade?

It's not France pulling out of international treaties or thumbing its nose at the rest of the world cowboy-style.

(How long will it take this to get moved to the politics/war forum?)

- - e r i k - - · Nov 19, 2003, 02:43 AM

Originally posted by Sherwin:
I like Norwegians too... Even ones who beg by trying to get you to tip them for their posts!

It's a joke. In case you missed it.

philzilla · Nov 19, 2003, 03:01 AM

of course, the French never do anything to earn this reputation...

Sherwin · Nov 19, 2003, 03:43 AM

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
It's a joke.

No?

Sherwin · Nov 19, 2003, 03:50 AM

Originally posted by philzilla:
of course, the French never do anything to earn this reputation...

I didn't attribute that attack to "the French" - I always thought it was more likely "the unwashed braindead liberal socialist hippy scum wearing Nikes", of which there are numerous examples everywhere.

If the reference to the "rosbeefs" wasn't nestled in there with the anti-war stuff I might have thought differently. The anti-war stuff says to me that the perps were just your usual average anti-everything pinko commies.

Spliffdaddy · Nov 19, 2003, 03:59 AM

philzilla · Nov 19, 2003, 04:20 AM

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:

blimey. is it possible that we actually agree on a matter?

the end of the world draws nigh.

willed · Nov 19, 2003, 04:30 AM

Originally posted by nonhuman:
Huh? I thought the American Revolution came first. Maybe it's the liquor, but I specifically remember having a conversation about this with a friend of mine who was a Poli Sci major just a coupe days ago.

You're right - the French helped you out in your revolution to piss off the English basically. Their revolution was in 1790, yours in 1775? Either way, I love the way arrogant Americans always go on about how they saved the world in 1945, forgetting how France enabled them to become a country back then, and also forgetting that, as always, the motive for them being so 'nice' in WW2 was oil (or at least control of it in the Pacific). The war started in 39, but as usual America was a few years late.

This isn't to say that Britain shouldn't invade France and take back its twelfth century territories though

Stick this in politics or lock it.

philzilla · Nov 19, 2003, 04:32 AM

Originally posted by willed:
Stick this in politics or lock it.

GO GO GADGET WILLED!

willed · Nov 19, 2003, 04:35 AM

Originally posted by philzilla:
GO GO GADGET WILLED!

I HAVE SPOKEN. MAKE IT SO.

deekay1 · Nov 19, 2003, 04:42 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
... Unlike France, the US isn't out to conquer the world.

pfff, - yeah righ!

as to france. great country, for the most part very nice people. awesome sports teams (soccer, basketball, team handball, rugby...)!

why "americans hate france"? some may think it stems from the clich� that the french are rude, snotty and overbearing (all of which i can not confirm!).

i personally think it's because french philosophy tore "american" authoritarianism/objectivism a new a$$hole! think "deconstruction", post modern philosophy etc.

rezonate · Nov 19, 2003, 04:52 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:

It had nothing to do with calling Bush's bluff.

Oh how you forget so easily. Bush and his comrades basically built the Saddam Iraq, supplied him with virtually every weapon available to them, stil lsuppplied them during the years of sanctions via big business, and now the US wanted to have the whole shebang to itself, so they trumped up the first Iraqi war, then the sanctions, and finally invasion, and took over the nation. Nice deal.
Frnace pales in comparison to what the US did with Iraq, the US knowingly supplied them with WMD when they were bombing the Kurds.

I've been to France, have French friends; I've been to the US, and have American friends; good and bad in both nations, but I don't see such stupid things going on n France as I do in the US.

So please don't parade this US innocence, and this 'we are helping the free-world' crap here.

rezonate · Nov 19, 2003, 05:00 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:

No, The French had too many business deals with Saddam and were afraid of losing tons of money.

It had nothing to do with calling Bush's bluff. [/B]

Just like the Bush family have too many business dealings with the Saudis, and Bin Laden's family, they still do.

Your statement on the US not out to conquer the world is pure sh!t, we are seeing it so many ways, through sanctions, invasion, demonisation of a country, etc. Who else is doing this? Who else has troops in virtually every part of the world in some form or another?

Even now we can see the US trying to strike up some crap about Iran so they can use that as a pre-text for invasion; Europe, the UN, and the atomic affairs committee recently all concluded that Iran was not building WMD, adn there was no evidence; ah, but along comes the US saying, oh but we know they are, we don;t believe these reports, so I guess we can see where this one is going. If the US was not interested in dominating the resources, and power of the world, the nit should stay the fcuk out of it.

As Madra said in another post about the treatment of blacks in the US: ' must be what gives you the right to go blundering round the world, 'educating' other peoples about 'freedom' - there's nowt so evangelical as a recent convert! '

Powerbook · 05:32 AM

>Originally posted by Zimphire:
>And France would be speaking German if it wasn't for the help of the US.
Yeah! And America would speak english if it wasn't for the help of the French!
I like these Nazi references of people that know sh!t about history.

>Have you been to France? I haven't. But I HAVE talked to many people
>in France. While some of them were nice as can be, many were pretentiously arrogant.
Hahahaa, the good Christs via ICQ again!!! So you have never been to a country , yet you insist in brushing off the whole country? Wait... Are you American or retarded???

Generall d�mb**** reaction of the "rights":
A: "If you have heard to France you would have saved thousands of peoples' lives!"
B: "Whuuuuuuut?! You commie socio pinko lefty! They have 10.000 deads in a heat wave and they surrender and eat cheese!"
---> Great.

PB.

philzilla · Nov 19, 2003, 05:31 AM

Originally posted by Powerbook:
Wait... Are you American or retarded???

forum consensus is that he's both.

and why hasn't this obviously political thread been thrown into the political lounge yet?

make willed a moderator

Zimphire · Nov 19, 2003, 05:35 AM

Originally posted by deekay1:
pfff, - yeah righ!

Yeah.. because we have the power to do so, but haven't done it why?

i personally think it's because french philosophy tore "american" authoritarianism/objectivism a new a$$hole! think "deconstruction", post modern philosophy etc.

Tore? we barely noticed.

Zimphire · Nov 19, 2003, 05:37 AM

Originally posted by rezonate:
Oh how you forget so easily. Bush and his comrades basically built the Saddam Iraq, supplied him with virtually every weapon available to them,

And then when he abused them, they were take away. YAY.

stil lsuppplied them during the years of sanctions via big business, and now the US wanted to have the whole shebang to itself

I think you are confusing the US with France and Germany.

, so they trumped up the first Iraqi war, then the sanctions, and finally invasion, and took over the nation. Nice deal.

We took it over? Really?

Frnace pales in comparison to what the US did with Iraq, the US knowingly supplied them with WMD when they were bombing the Kurds.

That is your opinion.

I've been to France, have French friends; I've been to the US, and have American friends; good and bad in both nations, but I don't see such stupid things going on n France as I do in the US.

So please don't parade this US innocence, and this 'we are helping the free-world' crap here.

Again, it's all subjective obviously.

Zimphire · Nov 19, 2003, 05:39 AM

Originally posted by Powerbook:
Hahahaa, the good Christs via ICQ again!!! So you have never been to a country , yet you insist in brushing off the whole country? Wait... Are you American or retarded???

When did I brush the whole country off? Wait, I didn't.

What are you, French or retarded?

Generall d�mb**** reaction of the "rights":
A: "If you have heard to France you would have saved thousands of peoples' lives!"

That doesn't even makes sense.

B: "Whuuuuuuut?! You commie socio pinko lefty! They have 10.000 deads in a heat wave and they surrender and eat cheese!"
---> Great.

Yeah that heat wave. There you have socialism at it's finest.

Try again.

deekay1 · Nov 19, 2003, 05:40 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:

Yeah.. because we have the power to do so, but haven't done it why?

because "you're" still in the progress of doing it....?!

rezonate · Nov 19, 2003, 05:42 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
And then when he abused them, they were take away. YAY.
[/b]

Em, no, they weren't taken away, the gassing of the Kurds happened in the middle of the 80's, the US still supplied him right up until before the first Gulf War, as well as the weapons for fighting Iran.
So you're wrong mate. The US's involvement is nothing short of wicked.

rezonate · Nov 19, 2003, 05:43 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
And then when he abused them, they were take away. YAY.
[/b]

Em, no, they weren't taken away, the gassing of the Kurds happened in the middle of the 80's, the US still supplied him right up until before the first Gulf War, as well as the weapons for fighting Iran.
So you're wrong mate. The US's involvement is nothing short of wicked.

I'll reply to your other parts separately since the quite thing doesn't show what you were replying to.

Zimphire · Nov 19, 2003, 05:43 AM

Originally posted by deekay1:
because "you're" still in the progress of doing it....?!

Yeah we have been doing it for what 30 years now?

Wow that is a slow takeover.

Zimphire · Nov 19, 2003, 05:45 AM

Originally posted by rezonate:
Em, no, they weren't taken away, the gassing of the Kurds happened in the middle of the 80's, the US still supplied him right up until before the first Gulf War, as well as the weapons for fighting Iran. So you're wrong mate

They took them away after their Kuwait attack. So no, I am not wrong.

The US's involvement is nothing short of wicked.

In your subjective opinion.

Anyhow, this thread isn't about how EVIL the US is.

I know the America haters can't stop the US bashing long enough to make fun of the French for a few seconds, but show some restraint.

rezonate · Nov 19, 2003, 05:46 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Zimphire:

I think you are confusing the US with France and Germany.

Nonsense, it was one of the reasons that the UK investigated claims that Uk, and US firms were supplying materials to Iraq after the first Gulf War. At least France was blatant about it, and why not if they disagree with the war in the first place, should we all just toe the US line, and say, "hey, we're with you big guy'.

Powerbook · Nov 19, 2003, 05:49 AM

>Originally posted by Zimphire:
>When did I brush the whole country off? Wait, I didn't.
Ooooh! You have my thanks!

>What are you, French or retarded?
Read my signature - I'm a bad Nazi. I eat innocent american children for breakfast.

>That doesn't even makes sense.
Not to you, you should have said! But since you are not in charge of anything, it's not that bad.

>Yeah that heat wave. There you have socialism at it's finest.
Yes brother Atef. It was socialism. And I thought it was a heatwave?

>Try again.
When would that work? After you took some severe studies and spent years in foreign countries? So, never?

PB.

rezonate · Nov 19, 2003, 05:51 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:

They took them away after their Kuwait attack. So no, I am not wrong.

[/b]

No, you are wrong, believe me, in every sense of the word. Firstly, the US stood by knowing that the weapons they supplied were being used to massacre civilians, they kept on supplying them, they couldn't even do the most basic thing, and stop supplying them.
Secondly, after the Kuwait attack, the US didn't take away their WMD, they stopped short of invading Iraq, and conquering their enemy, they left that to the UN afterwards.

Zimphire · Nov 19, 2003, 05:51 AM

Originally posted by rezonate:
Nonsense, it was one of the reasons that the UK investigated claims that Uk, and US firms were supplying materials to Iraq after the first Gulf War. At least France was blatant about it, and why not if they disagree with the war in the first place, should we all just toe the US line, and say, "hey, we're with you big guy'.

Materials? Like what? Fabric? they weren't supplying them with military weapons like France was up until we invaded them.

And it wasn't because France disagreed with the war either.

But that was a good attempt at justifying that.

rezonate · Nov 19, 2003, 05:52 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:

I know the America haters can't stop the US bashing long enough to make fun of the French for a few seconds, but show some restraint.

[/B]

Oops, you're right.

I love France, I love the US, but I think some Americans are mental in how they talk about the French.

freedom fries anyone?

rezonate · Nov 19, 2003, 05:53 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Yeah we have been doing it for what 30 years now?

Wow that is a slow takeover.

Only a fool would believe that a direct invasion of a country would mean takeover, there are plenty of other ways, and the US is a fine one for doing them.

Can I hear Cuba calling?

frownyfrank · Nov 19, 2003, 07:54 AM

I hear the complaint that the French are elitist, snobby and rude. That's bullshit. If a bunch of people who didn't speak the language were constantly touring around your country acting like everyone should speak their language, wouldn't you be frustrated? The French strike me as a proud people. Americas foreign policy seems to involve always being arrogant and pushing other nations around. I haven't seen much of that from the French lately.

I've lived in France for about a year now. Here's some things I've noticed:

* They love the US. My fellow young French friends practically boycott French movies, and much prefer the constant import of US films. Go into any particular corner cafe, and you're more likely to hear Eric Clapton than Serge Gainsbourg. Saying "Yes" is very cool when you're talking to your gf on your cell phone.

* They're scared of Americans. When I've met someone, and they find out I'm American, they always expect a certain level of animosity directed at them. Only maybe once or twice while I've been here, I've been cornered by a drunk French guy who is going off about Monsieur Bush. I tell them that I don't support the President, and they're often surprised, just as some of you might be surprised when you meet a right-wing Frenchman who lobbies for increased military spending to improve France's "credibility" with the world. But like the open-minded amongst us in the US, most of them have the capacity to distinguish the politics from the people.

* American tourists have nothing to complain about. Paris is the most visited city in the world, but most of the visitors come from other european countries, or even just other parts of France. So a certain percentage of the tourists can probably say a few sentences in French, or read a menu to some degree. Then there are all the other tourist who don't speak a word, like the Americans, the Koreans, the Indians, the Japanese, etc. Yet, unlike the Americans, all the other non-French speaking tourists don't have specially translated menus. They don't have even a chance of the waiter/doorman/etc knowing just a word or two in their native language to help them along. English-speakers are quite lucky in France's rightly extolled educational system, that actually produces bilingual citizens, unlike the US of A.

Does the French tourist who comes to the States get a translated menu? The waiter happens to know how to say "well done" in French? Don't blame them for actually taking a step to bridge the Atlantic, or if they're gruff when we treat their capital city like an amusement park. They have a rich culture that is considerably older than our own, and they have no reason to submit to this idea that the US is the self-proclaimed best country in the world. Is it so astonishing to think that another country might hold the same view?

Anyone who hasn't come should by all means treat themselves to a tour through the Louvre, a trip up the Eiffel Tower, and a walk along the Seine. Most politics aside, it's hard to hate the citizens who have created such a beautiful place for themselves. Why can't we?

AB^2=BCxAC · Nov 19, 2003, 08:30 AM

Animosity towards the French seems to be fueled by:

Xenophobia, scapegoating, intolerance of criticism, ignorance, stereotyping, nationalism, class hierarchies, and so on.

The same indefensible things that every nation can be accused of at some point because ridiculous and petty citizens live everywhere.

voyageur · Nov 19, 2003, 09:12 AM

Originally posted by AB^2=BCxAC:
Animosity towards the French seems to be fueled by:

Xenophobia, scapegoating, intolerance of criticism, ignorance, stereotyping, nationalism, class hierarchies, and so on.

The same indefensible things that every nation can be accused of at some point because ridiculous and petty citizens live everywhere.

And it gets reinforced by the caricatures of various nationals we see in the movies. The arrogant Frenchman, the Nazi German, the prissy Englishman, the feckless Italian, etc etc. As Americans, we're also subject to it, as our TV programs that are exported overseas don't exactly portray "real" Americans, but rather caricatures, like the characters in "Dallas" and other over-the-top shows.
Enough already! People are just people everywhere.

willed · Nov 19, 2003, 09:13 AM

Originally posted by AB^2=BCxAC:
Animosity towards the French seems to be fueled by:

Xenophobia, scapegoating, intolerance of criticism, ignorance, stereotyping, nationalism, class hierarchies, and so on.

The same things that drive Zimph to religion... strange how the proponent of the inclusive, forgiving religion is the most racist here

philzilla · Nov 19, 2003, 09:16 AM

Originally posted by willed:
The same things that drive Zimph to religion... strange how the proponent of the inclusive, forgiving religion is the most racist here

refer to PETA thread, for more hypocrisy from the man himself

khufuu · Nov 19, 2003, 09:24 AM

It's too damned expensive to buy a condo in Paris!!!

Shaddim · Nov 19, 2003, 09:28 AM

I've been there. Exceptionally rude people, in general. I tried speaking in their language (my French at the time was pretty good), and I suppose it was my accent, but all I received were angry comments and glares for "daring" to speak French. Finally, I just reverted back to English, with an Irish broke, and things got a bit better. Overall, in regards to it's populace, France is the worst of all European countries I've visited.

petehammer · Nov 19, 2003, 09:48 AM

Originally posted by MacNStein:
I've been there. Exceptionally rude people, in general. I tried speaking in their language (my French at the time was pretty good), and I suppose it was my accent, but all I received were angry comments and glares for "daring" to speak French. Finally, I just reverted back to English, with an Irish broke, and things got a bit better. Overall, in regards to it's populace, France is the worst of all European countries I've visited.

Hmmm... I call bull.

I lived in France for 4 months. The people were kind and loved Americans. And I was in Paris, which is considered a pretty big city. Either you had a unique experience or you're exaggerating.

You know why some people think the French are rude? Because Americans and French have different social habbits. The French think Americans are very shallow. Why?

In France, you aren't truly nice to someone until you know them. Once you know them and trust them, you are very nice to them. People were far more giving than Americans once I got "in." This is why people view French waiters as rude.

In America, people are always kind to others (waiters, etc), even if its fake.

Thus, its a difference in perception. One country likes an atmosphere of super-friendliness, even if it is fake and shallow. The other likes true friendliness, but only to those they know and trust.

When it comes to being friendly:
America= wide but shallow.
France= deep but narrow.

willed · Nov 19, 2003, 09:48 AM

Originally posted by MacNStein:
I've been there. Exceptionally rude people, in general. I tried speaking in their language (my French at the time was pretty good), and I suppose it was my accent, but all I received were angry comments and glares for "daring" to speak French. Finally, I just reverted back to English, with an Irish broke, and things got a bit better. Overall, in regards to it's populace, France is the worst of all European countries I've visited.

Maybe it's because you're **** at French? Sounds like you've had a wide and varied experience of the country.

benb · Nov 19, 2003, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by willed:
Maybe it's because you're **** at French?

What the crap?

MacGorilla · Nov 19, 2003, 10:02 AM

My hatred for france goes way back to 1985 when I went there on a class trip. First, I found Paris to be a very dirty city. It might be cleaned up now but the only city I've been to thats dirtier is Tapei, Taiwan.

Second, The people were snobbish and arrogant there. Okay,I can tolerate that but what I can't tolerate is the fact that french culture and lanquage permiates western culture yet France goes out of its way to exclude outside cultural influences, such as forbidding the use of the word 'email' and inventing their own. C'mon, we're a global society you bunch of nitwits!

I have nothing against French people. I have several French coworkers who are some of the funniest people I know but their country, c'mon!