[Echelon]

Article in the NY Times.

Europe wants to buy off the Iranians, reward them for doing the wrong thing, while the US wants the Iranians to live up to their commitments under the NPT, no appeasement included.

Some parents pay their children for getting good grades. My old man never did that. Know why? You don't reward people for doing the things they should be doing in the first place. It's no wonder Old Europe's foreign policy is impotent--the world knows they can push you around and all you'll do is pay them to get in line. Sometimes a right hard diplomatic jaw-jacking is what they need.

[petehammer]

Originally posted by Echelon:
It's no wonder Old Europe's foreign policy is impotent--the world knows they can push you around and all you'll do is pay them to get in line. Sometimes a right hard diplomatic jaw-jacking is what they need.

Hahaha... Old Europe. That's funny.

Apparently you're right in line with the U.S.'s new mode of foreign policy- shoot first, ask questions later. It's grrrrrreat for diplomacy.

How many times have you been banned?

[Millennium]

The US and Europe are at opposite ends of a spectrum, and this is the problem. Both approaches are fundamentally flawed, and cannot work in the long term (and seldom work in the short term either).

The US, at least under the current administration, is too hawkish. They are right to hold people up to their obligations, no ifs, ands, or buts. This is a little thing called integrity, and it is a Good Thing. However, the current administration is too war-oriented; even their attempts at diplomacy consist mainly of saber-rattling at the moment. The only current exception to this appears to be North Korea, where people often accuse the US of doing nothing simply because the approach seems so out of character.

Europe has the opposite problem: their fear of war has led them to essentially return to appeasement. While they push a "kinder, gentler" approach, their refusal to go to war when all else has failed means that they have no teeth with which to back up their demands, and the problem is that everyone knows this. So all a dictator has to do is stonewall and eventually they'll get everything they want at no risk to them, because they know that the threats are empty ones.

In the end, both regions need to realize that war should only be used when all else has failed, but that sometimes all else will fail, and that war should be used then. The US has to get over its Rambo complex, and the EU has to get over its fear. Neither is right, at least not as they are now.

[theolein]

This is yet another load of childish shit from the line of thought that thinks the men playing with their tanks and bombs and planes and guns is just like it was back in kindergarten cops 'n robbers and Playstation shooters.

Newsflash: It isn't.

All the brave heroes who are ready to get their balls and other body parts blown off in a sandy out of the way piece of the world because someone else tells them to, stand up! What, no one? Strange, isn't it!

Do you know why Iran, which is a touchy, dubious country at best, actually listens more to the EU than they do to the US? It's because Iran has some juicy fat trade treaties with the EU, which would help spruce up their economy.

The EU told them to either sign up to the additional protocols or to forget the trade agreements.

Your own benighted country's dumb**** policy towards Iran (those bad bad Iranians actually hat the gall to kick out the US' puppet, the Shah around 25 years ago, and then held the US Embassy hostage for over a year, something for which the US has never forgiven them, despite having shot down an Iranian airliner and given WMD to Iran's enemy in the Iran-Iraq war) has meant that your country has had economic sanctions and no trade with Iran for over 25 years.

That means that your benighted troop of politicians has no other lever to use against Iran but the threat of war. Yes, Sherlock, trade is an effective weapon, as your own president is presently discovering after having illegally raised steel import tariffs 30% a year ago and is now getting the same treatment from just about everyone else who exports steel (and no that is not just those ghastly Euro****s but the asians as well: China just called off soya imports from the US in reprisal).

So, to sum up: While there might very well be problems that can only be solved through violence and death (preferably not your own, eh?) there are also other ways of doing things.

You might be one of those people who try to use hammers to turn a screw, but did you ever think of using a screwdriver instead?

[BlackGriffen]

Where have I heard this debate before...
Ah, I've got it! Swap in "China" for "Iran," and I think that it will become apparent.

BG

[eklipse]

Originally posted by Echelon:
Some parents pay their children for getting good grades. My old man never did that. Know why?

If your school work was as good as your understanding of international diplomacy, I know why:

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by BlackGriffen:
Where have I heard this debate before...
Ah, I've got it! Swap in "China" for "Iran," and I think that it will become apparent.

BG

Bingo!!