[eklipse]

(You may remember this story from such threads as: http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...hreadid=183390)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Sto...089989,00.html
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/363042.html (For those who don't like the Guardian)

From the Guardian:

The Israeli military has admitted that it lied about a rocket attack on a Gaza refugee camp, which according to the army led to no casualties, but which the Palestinians have claimed killed 14 civilians.

A leftwing member of the Israeli parliament, Yossi Sarid, forced the confession from the air force chief after he threatened to release evidence that the military had used a weapon more destructive and indiscriminate than it had publicly claimed.

A month ago, the air force launched an assassination strike against a Hamas activist who was driving through Nuseirat refugee camp. The Palestinians claimed that the attack caused a large number of civilian casualties, but the air force commander, Major General Dan Halutz, produced video footage of the car being hit by two missiles that showed no one standing near the wrecked vehicle as the rockets struck.

The military said that Hellfire missiles were used, producing a concentrated explosion over a small area. Gen Halutz likened the effect of the missiles to "two grenades". The video footage was widely shown on Israeli television.

But the army now admits that it lied in briefings to the Israeli and foreign press, because the second rocket was not a Hellfire missile.

The military refuses to identify the weapon used, on the grounds of "operational security". But the speculation is that it was an American-made Flechette, which is illegal under international law because it fires thousands of tiny darts over hundreds of metres, causing horrific injuries. Israel has used similar weapons in Gaza in the past.

A political source said the air force had also admitted that the weapon was not fired from an Apache helicopter as it had originally claimed. The source said the information raised the possibility that the Israelis were using a new type of aircraft or weapon.

Evidence from the attack scene indicated that the second missile exploded in the air, not on impact, suggesting an intention to cause casualties in a wide area instead of just destroying the vehicle.

The Haaretz article cites an IDF claim that the actual weapons used were no more powerful or destructive than the ones originally stated to have been used - the IDF hasn't actually said what type of weapon was used. It's a shame their credibility is currently in the toilet.

Haaretz also hints at further deliberate deceptions:

It also turned out yesterday that other IDF
announcements about "pinpoint preventions" in
recent months were full of inaccuracies. And
not only the reporters were misinformed. So
were various spokesmen in the IDF's Spokesman's
Office, at least until after the Nusseirat
attack. Even the telegram Halutz sent to wing
commanders after the Nusseirat controversy
broke out included the deception about the type
of missile used.

I wonder what else the IDF and/or the Israeli government has lied about.

Discuss™!

[version]

Once they lie about such things, then they can NEVER be trusted again, there words are worthless at the end of the day, and yet we are meant to believe and have faith i nwhat they say?

Israel is a treacherous nation, they have proved that all along. Out to deceive so many nations, and they are the real ones behind 9/11, not some cave fighting mujahideen.

[petehammer]

Originally posted by version:
Israel is a treacherous nation, they have proved that all along. Out to deceive so many nations, and they are the real ones behind 9/11, not some cave fighting mujahideen.

Woah, buddy!

I think many of Israel's actions are far too extreme, but please do not derail this thread by claiming they were behind 9/11.

Back on topic: If the attacks claims are true (from eklipse), Israelis have no choice but a new regime to ever hope for peace with the Palestians.

[version]

Originally posted by petehammer:
Woah, buddy!

I think many of Israel's actions are far too extreme, but please do not derail this thread by claiming they were behind 9/11.

Back on topic: If the attacks claims are true (from eklipse), Israelis have no choice but a new regime to ever hope for peace with the Palestians.

Cool, but I have read enough to know that Israel did have some part, pm for links.

But yeah, carry on with the topic at hand.

[daimoni]

.

[lil'babykitten]

If the weapon used is indeed the one the Guardian suggests then this is outrageous.

The fact that the army won't say what they used is even more suspicious.
I thought events in this region could no longer surprise me.

[einmakom]

Originally posted by version:
Once they lie about such things, then they can NEVER be trusted again, there words are worthless at the end of the day, and yet we are meant to believe and have faith i nwhat they say?

If that's acceptable for nations, despite the fact that their leaders and governments change hands, then is it also acceptable to apply that standard to news-reporting organizations?

If so, then you can never use the Guardian as a source, given the fact that they have made up sentences and falsely attributed those words in the past. Given such a history of fabrication, by your standard, they cannot ever be trusted again.

Thanks go to eklipse for making the effort to use a Haaretz link- it shows a willingness to look for verification for the story rather than just posting the usual.

Are you surprised that a government lied? Try and find one government on the face of this earth that hasn't in the course of it's history.

[version]

Originally posted by einmakom:
If that's acceptable for nations, despite the fact that their leaders and governments change hands, then is it also acceptable to apply that standard to news-reporting organizations?

If so, then you can never use the Guardian as a source, given the fact that they have made up sentences and falsely attributed those words in the past. Given such a history of fabrication, by your standard, they cannot ever be trusted again.

Well that made not much sense. All you do is come on and belittle the source of stories, rather than tackling what is said. Maybe just once you could investigate the claims, see who else is reporting them, contact those involved, and let's see what happens.

Your dismissal of papers such as the Guardian does absolutely nothing to discredit the story, in fact, just makes me a bit more sure of it.

I don't see how you correlate Governmets lying, and the media; yes they both have agendas, but that's about it. The media is about reporting stories, and it's up to you to go check em out.

P.s. Did you reply to my post on Barak's quote on how he would be a terrorist?


Oh, forgot to say, but there's also a huge difference in Govs. and the media lying; the media don't go out and kill people, and cause wars in the first place.

What Israel did was jsuttypical of them, and on thier shoulders the blame will lie.

[version]

Originally posted by einmakom:

Thanks go to eklipse for making the effort to use a Haaretz link- it shows a willingness to look for verification for the story rather than just posting the usual.

So typical of you, only when a source that puts out stories that conform to your ideas, will you accept them, everyone else is just spreading nonsense. How biased, adn closed minded is that.

You will notice too, how you said I couldn't provide evidence for what Barak said about being a terrorist if he was Palestinian; hope you like how I used Ha-Aretz as the source

[einmakom]

Originally posted by version:
Well that made not much sense. All you do is come on and belittle the source of stories, rather than tackling what is said. Maybe just once you could investigate the claims, see who else is reporting them, contact those involved, and let's see what happens.

Your dismissal of papers such as the Guardian does absolutely nothing to discredit the story, in fact, just makes me a bit more sure of it.

I don't see how you correlate Governmets lying, and the media; yes they both have agendas, but that's about it. The media is about reporting stories, and it's up to you to go check em out.


P.s. Did you reply to my post on Barak's quote on how he would be a terrorist?

First off, your sources are usually already discredited before I get to them. Such discredit comes to those sources by their own poor actions.

Reporting lies as truth in media gets a pass but Governments don't? Good for you.

You want me to investigate and research your poorly thought out assertions, such as Israel being behind 9/11, when the research has been done and proven such assertions false. Why must I go through every vile idea you come up with and rehash why it isn't so? At some point, facts are facts and are as true the thirtieth time as they are the first. Rehashing them for your benefit when you insist on believing in conspiracy at every possible opportunity is like trying to discipline a donkey- It profits the discipliner nothing and annoys the ass.

You decide to hold Israel to a uniquely high standard, so I ask you to apply that standard equally- instead you prefer to hold your double standard.

As for the story, it's not done being told. I prefer to wait until more is released. Is that so wrong? No, it's just making sure I have the full range of information at my disposal.

As for you citing Barak's quote, you singularly failed to do what I asked you to do. I said you should cite the quote you claimed so that it could be verified. All you did was say it was in Haaretz on such-and-such a date. You didn't say which article, by which author. You gave no standard citation, which is what I asked for so that I could verify it. Then you had the unmitigated gall to suggest that I should ask BBC channel four for it. It's your assertion, you must offer me a way to verify it, not tell me to 'ask channel 4'.

[petehammer]

Originally posted by einmakom:
First off, your sources are usually already discredited before I get to them. Such discredit comes to those sources by their own poor actions.

Just out of curiousity... are newsmax and worldnewsdaily reliable sources?

Thanks.

[version]

Originally posted by einmakom:
First off, your sources are usually already discredited before I get to them. Such discredit comes to those sources by their own poor actions.

Reporting lies as truth in media gets a pass but Governments don't? Good for you.

You want me to investigate and research your poorly thought out assertions, such as Israel being behind 9/11, when the research has been done and proven such assertions false. Why must I go through every vile idea you come up with and rehash why it isn't so? At some point, facts are facts and are as true the thirtieth time as they are the first. Rehashing them for your benefit when you insist on believing in conspiracy at every possible opportunity is like trying to discipline a donkey- It profits the discipliner nothing and annoys the ass.

You decide to hold Israel to a uniquely high standard, so I ask you to apply that standard equally- instead you prefer to hold your double standard.

As for the story, it's not done being told. I prefer to wait until more is released. Is that so wrong? No, it's just making sure I have the full range of information at my disposal.

As for you citing Barak's quote, you singularly failed to do what I asked you to do. I said you should cite the quote you claimed so that it could be verified. All you did was say it was in Haaretz on such-and-such a date. You didn't say which article, by which author. You gave no standard citation, which is what I asked for so that I could verify it. Then you had the unmitigated gall to suggest that I should ask BBC channel four for it. It's your assertion, you must offer me a way to verify it, not tell me to 'ask channel 4'.

Nonsense, I have repeatedly posted links to articles online, and all you do is come back with little on-liners such as how you don't trust that source; you don't discuss the articels, don't even investigate them; they aren't written by me, but they are posted by many members here, adn all you do is come back and dismiss them.

9/11 is something else, and I was told not to deviate from that thread's topic, which is fair. I'l discuss that anyway you want.

Barak. First of all, I told you hat I saw that on TV first of all, I never said I was out to provide proof for it, it was said by me as an opinion. Only you came back to ask me to provide evidence for it, I never said Iwas going to, but I did you the favour of checking Ha-Aretz to find it. If that's not enough of a clue for you, then grow up.

Once again, I never put those coments about barak in here for me to provide evidence of them; but since you want me to do it, I will.

I'll get you the exact article from ha-Aretz.

BTW, it's not up to me to prove such things were said, it was my opinion that I believed they existed, if you, as you always seem to, disbelieve them, then go and look for it yourself, I gave you enough hints, It's not hard to go searching Ha-Aretz for past articles, and especially ones as important and famous as the Barak one.

[version]

One more thing, what I said was that Barak had made certain comments in the past about Palestinians, and so on. If you want to get in a tizzy because I didn;t give you the exact reference right off the bat, then that's your problem. Who said that the utterance by him was an online article? not me, I said it was on TV, a televised interview, so by that token , it wouldn't be easy to come by the video footage within the 40 minutes that you seem to want me to. But anyway, I went off to find something about it on the web, and I did, and not only that, but published by your darling Ha-Aretz.

If you want people to provide you with everything, then please be patient and stop throwing fits when you don't get it right away, not everything exists on the web.


P.s. I wonder how you'll react when you finally accept that Ha-Aretz ran that article. I really wonder.

[version]

Here's just some of the many sites that reported that infamous saying., oh they must all be wrong though, eh?
I've fired off an email tot Ha-Aretz for a copy of that days paper, and the article in question.
I work in the media too, so I'll be able to get my hands on the Channel 4 tape easily.


"Three recent statements in the Israeli press are worth noting. On March 6, Haaretz quoted Ehud Barak, the Israeli opposition leader as saying: "If I were a Palestinian and of appropriate age, I'd also join a terrorist organization."

http://www.arabia.com/newsfeed/artic...334852,00.html
http://www.ssnp.com/dark_side.htm

[Echelon]

Originally posted by version:
Israel is a treacherous nation, they have proved that all along. Out to deceive so many nations, and they are the real ones behind 9/11, not some cave fighting mujahideen.

version, you never have anything but abuse and nasty words for those that you don't like. And your 9/11 conspiracy theory is pathetic. Only the weak minds among the herds of lemmings that are your ilk believe that filth.

[Echelon]

Originally posted by version:
http://www.arabia.com/newsfeed/artic...334852,00.html
http://www.ssnp.com/dark_side.htm

get a clue, version. the ssnp is the syrian social nationalist portal. You Israel-hating, Jew-hating zombies always throw up some quotes from Arab or Middle East sources, without any corroboration from more well-known, reputable sources. I could go to santa.com and give you a thousand articles 'proving' saint nick is real--even provide radar intercepts of his flight path around the globe. That doesn't make it true.

Start being intellectually serious, and we might start treating you that way.

[eklipse]

:sigh:

15 replies and only 3 or 4 actually address the topic at hand.

Oh well, here's the link quoting Barak's statement that I posted in the other thread: http://www.jpost.com/com/Archive/10....Article-2.html

I doubt a search for a first-hand Haaretz quote will be fruitful seeing as though he made the statement in a TV interview. I believe he was later cross-questioned by Haaretz (apparently some people thought it must have been a gaffe) and he confirmed that his statement was indeed accurate and intended.

[lil'babykitten]

Well. That shut them up.

[einmakom]

Originally posted by eklipse:
:sigh:

15 replies and only 3 or 4 actually address the topic at hand.

Oh well, here's the link quoting Barak's statement that I posted in the other thread: http://www.jpost.com/com/Archive/10....Article-2.html

I doubt a search for a first-hand Haaretz quote will be fruitful seeing as though he made the statement in a TV interview. I believe he was later cross-questioned by Haaretz (apparently some people thought it must have been a gaffe) and he confirmed that his statement was indeed accurate and intended.

Yours was actually the best link on the subject of Barak's quote- better than anything the user version came up with. However, Barak did end up clarifying it, which everyone here has left out. Barak's clarification was what you would expect from a military strategist: "What do expect them to do, want to grow up and become Third Grade teachers?" His was not a justification, he just thought it was a stupid question, or so he said.

As for us all running off, and avoiding reply, there's not much there: I for one am waiting to see what more there is to the story.

Besides, what's the utility in replying in a thread where some posters go so far off the deep end as to accuse Israel of being responsible for 9/11? It's a great vacuum and sucks all room for reason, logic, and proportion right out.

[lil'babykitten]

The thread topic is referring to a recent revelation about the missile raid.

(just pointing it out to all those that forgot)

[version]

Originally posted by einmakom:
Yours was actually the best link on the subject of Barak's quote- better than anything the user version came up with. However, Barak did end up clarifying it, which everyone here has left out. Barak's clarification was what you would expect from a military strategist: "What do expect them to do, want to grow up and become Third Grade teachers?" His was not a justification, he just thought it was a stupid question, or so he said.

As for us all running off, and avoiding reply, there's not much there: I for one am waiting to see what more there is to the story.

Besides, what's the utility in replying in a thread where some posters go so far off the deep end as to accuse Israel of being responsible for 9/11? It's a great vacuum and sucks all room for reason, logic, and proportion right out.

Well, you did challenge me to only find evidence that he said that, nothing else; therefore giving off your position in the first place, which is to disbelieve that he ever said it.
Whatever he clarified later is beside the point since you didn't believe it in the first place.

[version]

So basically, barak said it, and you are wrong for thinking he didn;t. end of topic. Politicians backtracking after such a statement isn't new.

[version]

Also, if you read my posts, you asked for the evidence, I told you it was a tv interview, not a web article, and that I would get hold of the video for you. So your comments on my 'poor' links is a moot point. I did say in the very first place that it was a tv interview.

[eklipse]

Originally posted by einmakom:
Yours was actually the best link on the subject of Barak's quote- better than anything the user version came up with. However, Barak did end up clarifying it, which everyone here has left out. Barak's clarification was what you would expect from a military strategist: "What do expect them to do, want to grow up and become Third Grade teachers?" His was not a justification, he just thought it was a stupid question, or so he said.

No, not a justification, a realization. The linked article hits the nail on the head:

What Barak was actually saying in his interview with Gideon Levy was that he understands that in the state of frustration and hopelessness in which most Palestinian youths find themselves, joining a terrorist organization is an obvious option for those with an activist inclination, and that as a person with activist inclinations, that is probably the option he would have chosen had he been born a Palestinian.

A man who understands the connection between frustration and hopelessness on the one hand, and terror on the other, also understands that the main way to get rid of terror is to do away with this frustration and hopelessness. In other words, by conditioning progress in the peace process on the Palestinians first doing away with terror, our current leaders are placing the cart before the horse.

[einmakom]

Originally posted by version:
Well, you did challenge me to only find evidence that he said that, nothing else; therefore giving off your position in the first place, which is to disbelieve that he ever said it.
Whatever he clarified later is beside the point since you didn't believe it in the first place.

Not at all-

I asked you specifically to cite it in a way that I could verify it. You failed to do so every time, and offering to get the video was great, but not really helpful for me to verify it on my own.

I'll take you up on the video offer.