[thunderous_funker]

Published on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 by the Globe & Mail/Canada
The War on Dissent
Heavy-handed Police and Propaganda Tactics Brought Baghdad to Miami
by Naomi Klein

In December, 1990, U.S. President George Bush Sr. traveled through South America to sell the continent on a bold new dream: "a free-trade system that links all of the Americas." Addressing the Argentine congress, he said that the plan, later to be named the Free-Trade Area of the Americas would be "our hemisphere's new declaration of interdependence . . . the brilliant new dawn of a splendid new world."

Last week, Mr. Bush's two sons joined forces to try to usher in that new world by holding the FTAA negotiations in friendly Florida. This is the state that Governor Jeb Bush vowed to "deliver" to his brother during the 2000 presidential elections, even if that meant keeping many African-Americans from exercising their right to vote. Now Jeb Bush was vowing to hand his brother the coveted trade deal, even if that meant keeping thousands from exercising their right to protest.

And yet, despite the Bush brothers' best efforts, the dream of a hemisphere united into a single free-market economy died last week. It was killed not by demonstrators in Miami, but by the populations of Brazil, Argentina, and Bolivia, which have let their politicians know that if they sign away any more power to foreign multinationals, they may as well not come home.

The Brazilians brokered a compromise that makes the agreement a pick-and-choose affair, allowing governments to sign on to the parts they like and refuse the ones they don't. Washington will, of course, continue to try to bully individual countries and groups of nations into sweeping trade contracts on the model of the North American free-trade agreement, but there will be no single, unified deal.

Inside the Hotel Inter-Continental, it was being called "FTAA Lite."

Outside, we experienced something distinctly heavier: "War Lite." In fact, the more control the U.S. trade representatives lost at the negotiating table, the more raw power the police exerted on the streets.

"Our goal was to drown you out," one Miami-Dade police officer explained to me, and that's exactly what they did. Small, peaceful demonstrations were attacked with extreme force; organizations were infiltrated by undercover officers who then used stun guns on activists; busses filled with union members were prevented from joining permitted marches; dozens of young faces were smashed into concrete and beaten bloody with batons; human rights activists had guns pointed at their heads at military-style checkpoints.

Police violence outside of trade summits is not new, but what was striking about Miami was how divorced the security response was from anything resembling an actual threat. From an activist perspective, the protests were disappointingly small and almost embarrassingly obedient, an understandable response to weeks of police intimidation.

Listening to the incessant roar of helicopters and the march of police boots, I couldn't shake the feeling that something new was going on. It felt less like we were the targets of this operation than the target practice, unwitting extras in an elaborate military drill.

The FTAA Summit in Miami represents the official homecoming of the "war on terror." The latest tactical and propaganda techniques honed in Iraq -- from a Hollywoodized military to a militarized media -- have now been used on a grand scale in a major U.S. city. "This should be a model for homeland defense," Miami Mayor Manny Diaz proudly said of the security operation that brought together over 40 law-enforcement agencies, from the Federal Bureau of Investigation, to the Department of Fish and Wildlife.

But in order for the Miami Model to work, the police first had to establish a connection between legitimate activists and dangerous terrorists. Enter Miami Police Chief John Timoney, an avowed enemy of activist "punks" who repeatedly classified FTAA opponents as "outsiders coming in to terrorize and vandalize our city."

With the activists recast as dangerous aliens, Miami became eligible for the open tap of public money irrigating the "war on terror." In fact, $8.5-million spent on security during the FTAA meeting came directly out of the $87-billion President Bush extracted from Congress for Iraq last month -- a fact barely reported outside of the Miami press.

But more was borrowed from the Iraq invasion than just money. Miami police also invited reporters to "embed" with them in armored vehicles and helicopters. As in Iraq, most reporters embraced their role as pseudo-soldiers with unsettling zeal, suiting up in ridiculous combat helmets and brand-new camouflage flak jackets.

The resulting media coverage was the familiar wartime combination of dramatic images and non-information. We know, thanks to an "embed" from the Miami Herald, that Police Chief Timoney was working so hard hunting down troublemakers that by 3:30 on Thursday, "he had eaten only a banana and an oatmeal cookie since 6 a.m."

Local television stations didn't cover the protests so much as hover over them. Their helicopters showed images of confrontations but instead of hearing the voices on the streets -- voices of demonstrators pleading with police to stop shooting and clearly following orders to disperse -- we heard only from senior police officials and perky news anchors commiserating with the boys on the front line.

Meanwhile, independent journalists who dared to do their jobs and film the police violence up close were actively targeted. "She's not with us," one officer told another as they grabbed Ana Nogueira, a correspondent with Pacifica Radio's Democracy Now! who was covering a peaceful protest outside the Miami-Dade county jail. When the police established that Ms. Nogueira was indeed "not with us" (i.e. neither an embedded reporter nor an undercover cop) she was hauled away and charged.

The Miami Model of dealing with dissent reaches far beyond a single meeting. On Sunday, the New York Times reported on a leaked FBI bulletin revealing "a co-ordinated, nationwide effort to collect intelligence" on the U.S. anti-war movement. The memorandum singles out perfectly lawful protest activities including non-violence training, videotaping of police actions and Internet organizing. Anthony Romero, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union, said that the document revealed that, "The FBI is dangerously targeting Americans who are engaged in nothing more than lawful protest and dissent. The line between terrorism and legitimate civil disobedience is blurred."

We can expect much more of these tactics on the homeland front. Just as civil liberties violations escalated when Washington lost control over the FTAA process, so will repression increase as the Bush crew faces the ultimate threat: losing control over the White House.

Already, Jim Wilkinson, director of strategic communications at U.S. Central Command in Doha, Qatar, (the operation that gave the world the Jessica Lynch rescue), has moved to New York to head up media operations for the Republican National Convention. "We're looking at embedding reporters," he told the New York Observer of his plans to use some of the Iraq tricks during the convention. "We're looking at new and interesting camera angles."

The war is coming home.

[thunderous_funker]

Jeremy Scahill writes even more deatailed account of those events and the new Miami Model of the War on Dissent.

The next day, we went to a midday rally outside the Dade County Jail where more than 150 people were being held prisoner. It was a peaceful assembly of about 300 people. They sang �We all live in a failed democracy,� to the tune of �We all live in a yellow submarine.� They chanted, �Free the Prisoners, Not Free Trade,� and �Take off your riot gear, there ain�t no riot here.�

Representatives of the protesters met with police officials at the scene. The activists said they would agree to remain in a parking lot across the street from the jail if the police would call off the swelling presence of the riot police. They reached an agreement�or so the police said.

As the demonstration continued, the numbers of fully armed troops grew and grew. And they moved in from all four sides. They announced that people had 3 minutes to disperse from the �unlawful assembly.� Even though the police violated their agreement, the protesters complied. A group of 5 activists led by Puppetista David Solnit informed the police they would not leave. The police said fine and began arresting them.

But that was not enough. The police then attacked the dispersing crowd, chasing about 30 people into a corner. They shoved them to the ground and beat them. They gassed them at close range. My colleague from Democracy Now!, Ana Nogueira, and I got separated in the mayhem. I was lucky to end up on the �safe� side of the street. Ana was in the melee. As she did her job�videotaping the action�Ana was wearing her press credentials in plain sight. As the police began handcuffing people, Ana told them she was a journalist. One of the officers said, �She�s not with us, she�s not with us,� meaning that although Ana was clearly a journalist, she was not the friendly type. She was not embedded with the police and therefore had to be arrested.

In police custody, the authorities made Ana remove her clothes because they were soaked with pepper spray. The police forced her to strip naked in front of male officers. Despite calls from Democracy Now!, the ACLU, lawyers and others protesting Ana�s arrest and detention, she was held in a cockroach-filled jail cell until 3:30 am. She was only released after I posted a $500 bond. Other independent journalists remained locked up for much longer and face serious charges, some of them felonies. In the end, Ana was charged with �failure to disperse.�

The real crime seems to be �failure to embed.�

[thunderous_funker]

Published on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 by the Miami Herald
Chaotic, Forceful Police Muddy Peaceful Gathering
by Coky Michel

I am not an anarchist.

I am a retired French teacher with 33 years of experience in Miami-Dade County schools and have been a member of the Sierra Club for nearly a quarter of a century. I joined last week's demonstration against the Free Trade Area of the Americas because I sincerely believe that this treaty is extremely dangerous and puts at risk our local, state and federal laws.

But my attempt to participate in a peaceful protest turned into a nightmare, thanks to overreaction and heavy-handed treatment by the police in Miami.

After a peaceful walk involving a few thousand protesters, mostly members of labor unions and environmental organizations, everybody congregated inside or around the Bayfront Park auditorium, in part to listen to songs and speeches.

My husband and I were getting ready to leave the auditorium when we heard a commotion outside, smelled tear gas, and saw clashes between the young anarchists and the police. Anxious to head home and avoid walking to the Metrorail Government Station in the dark, my husband and I and two former students decided to wait until the situation cooled down.

Ambushed

But what should have been a pleasant, uneventful walk turned suddenly into chaos, with riot police shouting at us to ''move it, or else,'' telling us not to look back at them, and consistently giving us conflicting orders. Since most streets were blocked, we were forced to walk a few miles out of our way.

At one point, as we reached the railroad tracks, an officer shouted that we should make a left turn into the tracks and move on. As we followed his orders, dozens of policemen in full riot gear rushed towards us, surrounded us, and instructed us to put our hands behind our backs, so that the police could handcuff us.

When I asked the officers the reason for our arrest, they shouted at me to be quiet and not to move, their weapons pointed at all of us. My husband and I tried in vain to explain that we had been given orders to turn west at the railroad tracks, and that we just wanted to get to the Metrorail station, but nobody seemed to listen or care.

Eventually, the officer who had given us the original orders finally appeared, and some of us were allowed to go, but not before having to listen first to an extremely arrogant ''sheriff'' telling us how fortunate we were that we were not put in jail.

Upon leaving this frightful encounter, we were again surrounded by more policemen, who menacingly blocked our path again, instructing us to go back south, where we had originally come from. We had to explain once more that we could not go back, as the riot squads were not allowing anybody to do so. What was most disturbing about these threatening encounters was the lack of communication among different police squads.

It was a true relief to finally walk away from the thousands of cops in riot gear and cross Overtown in the dark. When we arrived at the Government Center station (Miami Arena was closed, and anyone approaching it was greeted with tear gas, as we soon found out), we were told that the station would be closed in a few minutes. (This was before 6 p.m.)

Police confusion

Rushing to the platform, we saw two trains go by without stopping. Confusion reigned -- riot police and security gave conflicting opinions of the situation -- until someone in charge assured us that one last train would stop.

I made it home safely, but I will never feel the same about the police, especially in Miami. Protesters were constantly intimidated and harassed as we walked to and from the demonstration, and the police officers themselves seemed puzzled and disorganized when handling the nonviolent crowd.

Not once in this ordeal did I feel that the officers were there to protect me. Chief Timoney and Mayor Diaz looked pleased and proud on television: Their thousands of officers, armed to the teeth, had won a heroic battle against a few young and possibly violent troublemakers. The majority of the protesters, however -- peaceful and law abiding citizens like me, who should have had the right to express our views without fear or intimidation -- went home with sore feet and a bad taste in our mouths.

Coky Michel is a former teacher at Coral Gables High School.

[petehammer]

Predicted quote, without sarcasm:

Originally posted by Sherwin:
All of the protesters should be shot on sight. For being stupid. Like we don't already know their opinions so they have to form yet another protest to show them or something. Like, what's the point.

Yup, that pretty much snuffs out dissent. It's hard to protest when you are dead.

Those are some interesting articles, especially noting that the fight was re-cast in a light to get a little of that sweet $87 bil. honey.

I think I'm going to make a bumper sticker:

�Take off your riot gear, there ain�t no riot here.�

[thunderous_funker]

More here

[petehammer]

Regarding the second picture:

Police Chief: That bongo drum... could have been be a bombo drum!

Hmmm, guys in scary black suits with sticks versus hippies and union members. Looks pretty fair to me

I'm glad police are being used in a non-partisan manner. USA, USA, USA!

(Crosses Miami off of list of places to go to)

[Lerkfish]

prong two.

[thunderous_funker]

Just in case skeptics thought it was just hippies that were complaining, the NY Times reports that United Steelworkers Union has filed an official complaint about the Police actions against it's members.

[finboy]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
Just in case skeptics thought it was just hippies that were complaining, the NY Times reports that United Steelworkers Union has filed an official complaint about the Police actions against it's members.

OK, so it's just hippies and union members who are complaining. Sounds like politics to me.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by finboy:
OK, so it's just hippies and union members who are complaining.

Oh, and I forgot "non-embedded" journalists.

And the retired schoolteacher whose editorial I posted.

So I guess its only the kind of people you love to call Socialists that seem to be concerned with authoritarianism and abuse of federal authority.

Oh, and the "liberal" media "embeds" doing a wonderful job of villifying the anti-government protesters (anti-government socialists ) and romanticizing the militarized federal troops. That "liberal" media sure does love watching Feds kick around anti-government socialists.

Curiouser and Curioser. We really are through the looking glass it seems.

[spauldingg]

I'm scared. Terrified. There is nowhere to left to go.

[davesimondotcom]

Isn't the POINT of most of these type of protests to push the police to the edge of using force - and then over that edge?

What I mean by that is, if your intent is to advertise your point of view, and you decide the best route to that is to stage a protest, you want as much press coverage as possible. A simple, non-violent protest gets virtually no press coverage. But, if someone gets cracked over the head with a nightstick, some photojournalist gets a prize-winning photo, at least three articles are written about a supposed "War on Dissent" and Lerkfish thinks that the mythical Prong Two has been achieved.

(As an aside, if Prong One and Two are in place, are we still going to have an election in 2004?)

I'll sit back and prepare for the irony of getting blasted for sharing my opinion on this board, where dissent is having a point of view right of center. And dissent isn't tolerated here.

[petehammer]

Originally posted by davesimondotcom:
Isn't the POINT of most of these type of protests to push the police to the edge of using force - and then over that edge?

No, the point is to show solidarity and unity of protest, not to get the sh!t kicked out of you.

What I mean by that is, if your intent is to advertise your point of view, and you decide the best route to that is to stage a protest, you want as much press coverage as possible. A simple, non-violent protest gets virtually no press coverage. But, if someone gets cracked over the head with a nightstick, some photojournalist gets a prize-winning photo, at least three articles are written about a supposed "War on Dissent" and Lerkfish thinks that the mythical Prong Two has been achieved.

Yes, people want to be beaten by police just to get their face on the news.

Sigh. People stage protests because they know a large gathering of people shows solidarity. In fact, many protestors could care less about the news being there, they are there to show support for a cause.

Why would people enjoy having the police brutalize them? Would you enjoy that?

I'll sit back and prepare for the irony of getting blasted for sharing my opinion on this board, where dissent is having a point of view right of center. And dissent isn't tolerated here.

When you share your opinion you can expect it to be challenged, but no one has stopped you or beaten you or arrested you for sharing your opinion.

But no joke, the "liberal" media has invaded these boards and cleansed them of conservatives. How I miss finboy, FarmboyNYC, AutoJC, Joshua, Zimphire, spacefreak, spliffdaddy...

[davesimondotcom]

Originally posted by petehammer:
No, the point is to show solidarity and unity of protest, not to get the sh!t kicked out of you.

So, do you deny that more people have heard the point of view of these protesters because of the violence than would have heard it had there not been any press there and it just been "solidarity?"

Originally posted by petehammer:
Yes, people want to be beaten by police just to get their face on the news.

I didn't say that. I said the fact that the police acted out advanced their cause.

I don't WANT to drive to my parents house for Thanksgiving Dinner over snowy passes. But I do want Thanksgiving with my family. So, in order to do that, I have to go through something I'd rather not go through.

Same with protestors. Of course they don't WANT to be beaten. But it does help get their opinions out. It's a means to an end.

Originally posted by petehammer:
Sigh. People stage protests because they know a large gathering of people shows solidarity. In fact, many protestors could care less about the news being there, they are there to show support for a cause.

Sigh right back. Look at the language involving protesting: "stage" a protest, "show" solidarity, "show" support for a cause.

If there was a protest with no press, who would they be "showing?" A protest with no audience is simply an outdoor field trip for the local union retirees and their socialist buddies.

Originally posted by petehammer:
Why would people enjoy having the police brutalize them? Would you enjoy that?

Of course not. I didn't say anyone enjoyed being "brutalized." However, when one chooses to go to such a protest, you can't tell me it is a surprise to them that the police get provoked. After all, they PUSH the police into acting the way they did.

Put yourself in the shoes of the cop. Called out in extremely hot equipment, yelled at, called names, etc. all for a measly paycheck. The irony here is that these cops aren't "the man" - they are Union too! (Obvious difference - the cops had to go to work that day. And their jobs probably won't be export to another country.)

Also, since I protest in ways other than demonstrations, I take myself out of that risk (getting beaten by police.) I vote. I seriously wonder how many of the people at these kinds of protests can say the same.

Originally posted by petehammer:
When you share your opinion you can expect it to be challenged, but no one has stopped you or beaten you or arrested you for sharing your opinion.

I do expect to be challenged. But I couldn't tell you how many times I have been insulted instead of challenged.

Originally posted by petehammer:
But no joke, the "liberal" media has invaded these boards and cleansed them of conservatives. How I miss finboy, FarmboyNYC, AutoJC, Joshua, Zimphire, spacefreak, spliffdaddy...

Count the conservatives that post here. Then count the true independants. Then count the left-leaning, Bush-hating side.

I'm not expecting balance. This is a board, not a news source. But I do know that my intelligence will be questioned, I'll be associated with a monkey or some sort, simply because I am not a leftist.

And I'm not even a far-right wacko either. That's the most frustrating part for me, that just because I support some of the things the President has done, I'm grouped in with Zimphire and SuperChicken.

[Joshua]

Originally posted by petehammer:
No, the point is to show solidarity and unity of protest, not to get the sh!t kicked out of you.

...

Sigh. People stage protests because they know a large gathering of people shows solidarity. In fact, many protestors could care less about the news being there, they are there to show support for a cause.

Why would people enjoy having the police brutalize them? Would you enjoy that?

This is true for most protesters, but there certainly are protesters who show up hoping to spark some violence and get "martyred" by the press.

Take a look at the second picture above: notice the cop to the left who's been splattered with paint. Find the pictures from the G8 conference a few years back where a protester was shot and killed: there are pictures, moments before he was shot, of the same man trying to throw a fire extinguisher at the police officers.

The sad thing, in my opinion, is that the peaceful protesters never really condemn this behavior ("it's unfortunate," "their anger is understandable"), but they're more than willing to capitalize on the violence that results.

Where are the stinging editorials in the Miami Herald from the protesters who are tired of having their message drowned out by the lowest common denominator?

But no joke, the "liberal" media has invaded these boards and cleansed them of conservatives. How I miss finboy, FarmboyNYC, AutoJC, Joshua, Zimphire, spacefreak, spliffdaddy...

I don't think I've posted enough in this forum for you to know my political views in any detail, but you're way off in equating me with most of the people on that list.

[BoomStick]

Ahahahahahahahah!
They got the nest!

[petehammer]

Originally posted by davesimondotcom:

Count the conservatives that post here. Then count the true independants. Then count the left-leaning, Bush-hating side.

That's the most frustrating part for me, that just because I support some of the things the President has done, I'm grouped in with Zimphire and SuperChicken.

Can't have it both ways. Can't call people (like myself) left-leaning Bush-haters, yet refuse to be lumped in with the conservatives.

You are either for grouping people or against it.

As Molly Ivans said recently, just because we don't like Bush's policies, doesn't mean we hate him. You can be mature and not like the man's actions, and yet not feel hatred for him. I know it's easier to malign us if we are "Bush-haters" but it won't work that easily.

And I believe I did count the conservatives who posted here, at least off the top of my head. Do they all believe in the same things? Of course not. Do they all have attitudes right-of-center? From what I've seen, yes, and some pretty far right at that.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally posted by petehammer:
Can't have it both ways. Can't call people (like myself) left-leaning Bush-haters, yet refuse to be lumped in with the conservatives.

You are either for grouping people or against it.

I didn't call anyone specific anything. Therein lies the difference. My groups were groups in general. Not any specific names.

I know nothing of your politics. I haven't been doing much reading on these boards the past few months, so I am not familiar with you.

Originally posted by petehammer:
As Molly Ivans said recently, just because we don't like Bush's policies, doesn't mean we hate him. You can be mature and not like the man's actions, and yet not feel hatred for him. I know it's easier to malign us if we are "Bush-haters" but it won't work that easily.

Yes, debate can be civil. But most of the time on here it isn't. Some people on here do dislike Bush's policies. Some of them I dislike.

But you can't convince me that some on here don't feel anything but hatred for the man.

Originally posted by petehammer:
And I believe I did count the conservatives who posted here, at least off the top of my head. Do they all believe in the same things? Of course not. Do they all have attitudes right-of-center? From what I've seen, yes, and some pretty far right at that.

Maybe you think they are far right because the center to you is further left than the center to them.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by finboy:
OK, so it's just hippies and union members who are complaining. Sounds like politics to me.

Funny, last I heard from you, it wasn't political protest at all.

-s*

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
prong two.

Prong 2 "Beg to Differ"?



Not a bad album... but I prefer their first.

[Wiskedjak]

Don't you know that the only people in the US who are created equal are those who voted Republican?

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by davesimondotcom:
Isn't the POINT of most of these type of protests to push the police to the edge of using force - and then over that edge?

What I mean by that is, if your intent is to advertise your point of view, and you decide the best route to that is to stage a protest, you want as much press coverage as possible. A simple, non-violent protest gets virtually no press coverage. But, if someone gets cracked over the head with a nightstick, some photojournalist gets a prize-winning photo, at least three articles are written about a supposed "War on Dissent" and Lerkfish thinks that the mythical Prong Two has been achieved.

(As an aside, if Prong One and Two are in place, are we still going to have an election in 2004?)

I'll sit back and prepare for the irony of getting blasted for sharing my opinion on this board, where dissent is having a point of view right of center. And dissent isn't tolerated here.

And aren't you just blasting me for sharing my opinion?
LOL!

You want the ability to belittle my three prong theory but everyone else must take YOUR opinions seriously or we are not being tolerant of your opinion?

hmmm.....interesting.

for what its worth, the purpose of protesting is not to be oppressed, anymore than the purpose of challenging a referees' call during a game is to goad them into making more bad calls against you.

The purpose of protesting is to stand up for what you believe in, or to disagree with the status quo. It should NOT be done so at the risk of life and limb. NOT in america.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by davesimondotcom:
Yes, debate can be civil. But most of the time on here it isn't. Some people on here do dislike Bush's policies. Some of them I dislike.

PRECISELY...that is the problem, and it is YOUR failing. You dislike the macNN poster because they criticize Bush. That's taking criticism of your party leader personally, a big no no.

Originally posted by davesimondotcom:
But you can't convince me that some on here don't feel anything but hatred for the man.

Completely irrelevant. Whether I like Bush or not should have no bearing on whether I'm allowed to speak my mind. Similarly, if you or someone else hates Clinton, does that mean they're not allowed to post? I hear some rightwingers hate Daschle. I hear some of them hate micheal moore, etc, etc. The DIFFERENCE is, people like you use that dislike as ammunition against them, as if it disqualifies their ability to speak on various issues.
Why?
If you do not apply this bizarre law to yourselves, why apply it to us?

Originally posted by davesimondotcom:
Maybe you think they are far right because the center to you is further left than the center to them.

Look in the mirror. Maybe your think they are far left because the center to you is further right than the center to them.

AND THAT'S THE POINT. We all have differing POVs.
The difference only is that republicans expend a great amount of energy trying to shut up any opposing view, instead of arguing the issues or the points. YOU are the prime example here.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Prong 2 "Beg to Differ"?

snip image

Not a bad album... but I prefer their first.

snip image

your point, besides ridicule of someone else's opinion?
why do you republicans NEED to muzzle any opposing opinion? Are you simply that insecure, or what?

[davesimondotcom]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
PRECISELY...that is the problem, and it is YOUR failing. You dislike the macNN poster because they criticize Bush. That's taking criticism of your party leader personally, a big no no.

I don't consider Bush "my" party leader. I'm not a Republican party member. In fact, I've never voted for a Republican for President. If you've ever carefully read my posts, you would know that.

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
Completely irrelevant. Whether I like Bush or not should have no bearing on whether I'm allowed to speak my mind. Similarly, if you or someone else hates Clinton, does that mean they're not allowed to post? I hear some rightwingers hate Daschle. I hear some of them hate micheal moore, etc, etc. The DIFFERENCE is, people like you use that dislike as ammunition against them, as if it disqualifies their ability to speak on various issues.
Why?
If you do not apply this bizarre law to yourselves, why apply it to us?

Actually, it's completely relevant. The point was made that he didn't hate bush, but disliked some of his policies. I simply said that some people on here DO have hatred for Bush.

Funny thing is, I don't hate anyone. Tom Daschle has different views than me. Moore does too. But I don't hate them. How many threads have you seen started here portraying either one of those men as monkeys?

I appreciate the sharing of different viewpoints. It's my contention that some people on here are uncomfortable with non-left viewpoints being shared. And they responds with vitriol and hatred. If you don't believe me, see the threads about religious issues, abortion or gun control.

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
Look in the mirror. Maybe your think they are far left because the center to you is further right than the center to them.

Lerk, when you become the center, I become very frightened.

See, I think that someone who considers both sides has a better shot at being in the center. I don't pretend Zimphire is the center. But I also don't think you are any closer to it. You are just on another side of it.

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
AND THAT'S THE POINT. We all have differing POVs.

When have I ever said anything other than this?

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
The difference only is that republicans expend a great amount of energy trying to shut up any opposing view, instead of arguing the issues or the points. YOU are the prime example here.

I don't see any example of me taking away anyone's freedom of speech. Looking at your post count, I think you are speaking up just fine.

How exactly am I avoiding the issue? Was there an issue in this thread? A "War on Dissent" claim made by some people who were WRITING ARTICLES... isn't that a LITTLE ironic?

I have no access to a newsroom (unlike you), I have no access to a TV station. I cannot speak in front of millions of people or even hundreds. But *I* am the one who is crushing dissent? Puhhhhhh-leeeezze.

You want to debate issues. Fine. Do so without insulting my education or intelligence. Oh, but then, you were only joking (every time you got called on it.)

[davesimondotcom]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
And aren't you just blasting me for sharing my opinion?
LOL!

I love you sharing your opinion, Lerk.

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
You want the ability to belittle my three prong theory but everyone else must take YOUR opinions seriously or we are not being tolerant of your opinion?

I never said anyone should take my opinions SERIOUSLY. I don't even care if they read them, honestly. And it's impossible to belittle your three prong theory...

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
hmmm.....interesting.

for what its worth, the purpose of protesting is not to be oppressed, anymore than the purpose of challenging a referees' call during a game is to goad them into making more bad calls against you.

Again, where did I say the purpose of protesting was to be oppressed? I said it was to gain attention for your cause. And if the police getting violent furthers that attention, it furthers the cause, in theory.

As a baseball coach, I don't argue with an umpire to get him to change the call he just made. I argue with him to show my team that I stand behind them, support them, and to show the other team that I am a competitor. If there were ever much of a crowd at the game, it would be to let THEM know that the umpire blew the call.

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
The purpose of protesting is to stand up for what you believe in, or to disagree with the status quo. It should NOT be done so at the risk of life and limb. NOT in america.

Nobody is saying these people shouldn't or can't protest. However, they have the right to "peacably assemble" - and when they are throwing things, breaking things, damaging property and generally don't acting in an orderly and civil manner, they have no right to complain if the police act out.

[nas t. ho]

Originally posted by BoomStick:

[einmakom]

You know, when you make casual comparisons like that, you dilute the meaning of the original.

Let me know when they start taking away firearms, firing up the ovens, conducting genetic experiments on twins, and turning people's skin into lampshades and their fat into soap.

Until that time, the Miami Police actions may or may not be reprehensible, but they come nowhere near the horrific events conducted by Nazi Germany.

[nas t. ho]

Originally posted by einmakom:
You know, when you make casual comparisons like that, you dilute the meaning of the original.

stupid arrogant assesment. when anyone makes comparisons about anything, they are usually drawng parallels, - that's why literalism is such utter sh|t.

open your eyes, read between the lines...deny the symbols...it's right there infront of you.

[BlackGriffen]

Godwin's Law already? And we're only on page 2...

BG

[davesimondotcom]

Originally posted by BlackGriffen:
Godwin's Law already? And we're only on page 2...

BG

I think it's only page 1.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
your point, besides ridicule of someone else's opinion?
why do you republicans NEED to muzzle any opposing opinion? Are you simply that insecure, or what?

Actually, I'm Libertarian (I did vote for Bush last time because I hate Gore), I just find all the conspiracy "prong" BS hilarious.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by BlackGriffen:
Godwin's Law already? And we're only on page 2...

BG

Nah, he's just an idiot.

[nas t. ho]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Nah, he's just an idiot.

big words for a little JAP like you

[BlackGriffen]

Originally posted by davesimondotcom:
I think it's only page 1.

D'oh! I got the length of this thread mixed up with the length of another.

That's even worse...

BG

[ThinkInsane]

Originally posted by nas t. ho:
big words for a little JAP like you

Enough with your garbage already. You don't agree with someone, that's fine, but leave the racist stuff at the door. I've got abut ten reported post notifications on you since you have registered, and I really don't think your going to be around for long if you don't learn to act like a decent rational human being.

[teszeract]

Originally posted by BlackGriffen:
Godwin's Law already? And we're only on page 2...

BG

This is when I wish Safari would let me GOOGLE SEARCH into a new tab/window!!

Godwin's Law ___ prov. ___ [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful.
http://info.astrian.net/

[Face Ache]

LOOK! SHINY OBJECT OVER THERE!!!


<everyone looks>

[theolein]

After taking a look at those riot cops in those armoured uniforms directly out of some cheap Hollywood Science Fiction movie, and reading those repports I was going to post a "Sieg Heil" or a "Ein Volk, ein Vaterland, ein F�hrer" or something along those lines, but then I realised that this whole thing is just par for the course.

My thoughts went along lines like these:
Do those cops look like a bunch of Nazi thugs? Yes.
Do most riot cops all over the world look like Nazi thugs? Yes.
Do riot cops all over the world routinely beat the shit out of anyone, innocent or not because that's what they're trained to do? Yes
Are riot cops usually nice friendly types in social situations? No.
Are Americans scared that Osama an co. will try to bomb a gathering like this? Yes.
Is there a lot of patriotic fervour going on in the US because of the boys at the front?. Yes.
Is this why the riot cops were especially "friendly" this time? Possibly.
Do many Americans think it is unpatriotic to protest against GW and co.? Yes.
Could it only happen in America that people would complain about protesters blocking their right to drive their cars? Yes.
What would happen if the riot cops decided that that nice town in Kansas where everyone has to own a gun is a threat to national security and had to be reigned in? Waco II.
Will it lead to civil war? You have to be joking.
Are you, Theolein, a left wing terrorist/communist/Nazi/Moslem/Protestor ? No, I'm a left wing tourist/Marxist/touchy/spectator.

[Face Ache]

Homeland Security valiantly defends Freedom� from nerd attack.

[ThinkInsane]

Originally posted by theolein:
After taking a look at those riot cops in those armoured uniforms directly out of some cheap Hollywood Science Fiction movie, and reading those repports I was going to post a "Sieg Heil" or a "Ein Volk, ein Vaterland, ein F�hrer" or something along those lines, but then I realised that this whole thing is just par for the course.

My thoughts went along lines like these:
Do those cops look like a bunch of Nazi thugs? Yes.
Do most riot cops all over the world look like Nazi thugs? Yes.
Do riot cops all over the world routinely beat the **** out of anyone, innocent or not because that's what they're trained to do? Yes
Are riot cops usually nice friendly types in social situations? No.
Are Americans scared that Osama an co. will try to bomb a gathering like this? Yes.
Is there a lot of patriotic fervour going on in the US because of the boys at the front?. Yes.
Is this why the riot cops were especially "friendly" this time? Possibly.
Do many Americans think it is unpatriotic to protest against GW and co.? Yes.
Could it only happen in America that people would complain about protesters blocking their right to drive their cars? Yes.
What would happen if the riot cops decided that that nice town in Kansas where everyone has to own a gun is a threat to national security and had to be reigned in? Waco II.
Will it lead to civil war? You have to be joking.
Are you, Theolein, a left wing terrorist/communist/Nazi/Moslem/Protestor ? No, I'm a left wing tourist/Marxist/touchy/spectator.

Theo, for the most part I think you are a bright guy, although we disagree about a lot of things, but I have to say that most of what you have posted above is utter nonsense.

No, many Americans don't think it's unpatriotic to protest the policies of a sitting president. It happens all the time, and as a matter of fact, there is a long tradition of it in this country.

I'm quite sure that Americans are not the only ones that get annoyed when some protest or another blocks their route to work and makes them late.

Riot cops are people, not mindless automatons. Most, I am sure, separate their work life from their personal life and act just like any other normal person in social situations. I use physical force in my job daily. That's work. When I am home, it's a completely different story.

Riot cops don't get to decide that a town in Kansas is a threat to national security.

The only place I hear about all this 'patriotic fervor' is on this message board, mostly from people that don't live here. Yes, there are people proud of our soldiers, and yes, there are people that even whole-heartedly believe that we are doing the right thing in Iraq, but in my day to day life I don't see people thumping their chests and signing patriotic songs. For most of the country, life goes on as usual. You work, you spend time with family and friends. Just like before the war, and I am sure just like after the war.

It gets a little tedious to keep hearing how things are here, how "most Americans'" think and feel, from people that aren't even in the damn country.

Sure, I know, we have a world full of experts on America because people read this or that in the news, saw such and such movie, and took a two week vacation to NY back in '92, but seriously, most of the **** I read on here about this country bears little reflection on the country I live in.

People here aren't a whole lot different than the people I've met anywhere else in the world, and I wish folks would figure that out.

[Face Ache]

Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
People here aren't a whole lot different than the people I've met anywhere else in the world, and I wish folks would figure that out.

That's the bloody problem IMHO.

People are pretty much the same the world over. The Americans ARE acting like the Romans (and the British and the...). The Israelis ARE acting a bit like the Nazis (and within fifty years!). There is nothing new under the sun when it comes to human behaviour and human "society". The problems of the world aren't "this issue" or "that issue". The problem is human behaviour. If we all get wiped out it will probably be through our own stupidity as a species.

From a distance we must look like warring ant colonies.

We must evolve emotionally and socially if we are to survive the 21st century.

I just wish conservatives understood that.

[Nicko]

Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
Theo, for the most part I think you are a bright guy, although we disagree about a lot of things, but I have to say that most of what you have posted above is utter nonsense.

No, many Americans don't think it's unpatriotic to protest the policies of a sitting president. It happens all the time, and as a matter of fact, there is a long tradition of it in this country.

I'm quite sure that Americans are not the only ones that get annoyed when some protest or another blocks their route to work and makes them late.

Riot cops are people, not mindless automatons. Most, I am sure, separate their work life from their personal life and act just like any other normal person in social situations. I use physical force in my job daily. That's work. When I am home, it's a completely different story.

Riot cops don't get to decide that a town in Kansas is a threat to national security.

The only place I hear about all this 'patriotic fervor' is on this message board, mostly from people that don't live here. Yes, there are people proud of our soldiers, and yes, there are people that even whole-heartedly believe that we are doing the right thing in Iraq, but in my day to day life I don't see people thumping their chests and signing patriotic songs. For most of the country, life goes on as usual. You work, you spend time with family and friends. Just like before the war, and I am sure just like after the war.

It gets a little tedious to keep hearing how things are here, how "most Americans'" think and feel, from people that aren't even in the damn country.

Sure, I know, we have a world full of experts on America because people read this or that in the news, saw such and such movie, and took a two week vacation to NY back in '92, but seriously, most of the **** I read on here about this country bears little reflection on the country I live in.

People here aren't a whole lot different than the people I've met anywhere else in the world, and I wish folks would figure that out.

Ah. But apparently a significant amount voted in Bush and Co who endorse and promote exactly what Theo is so worried about. So who is really to blame? The leaders?...or the people who voted them in? I wager both, everyone must take responsibility at some point.

[Nicko]

Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
\It gets a little tedious to keep hearing how things are here, how "most Americans'" think and feel, from people that aren't even in the damn country.

Oh and it gets a little tedious how America dictates to the rest of the world how they should think and live their lives too... and then there is the whole spreading democracy and the war on terror/resource/power grab thing they do...

but other than that, yes, we are all exactly the same.

[theolein]

Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
Theo, for the most part I think you are a bright guy, although we disagree about a lot of things, but I have to say that most of what you have posted above is utter nonsense.

No, many Americans don't think it's unpatriotic to protest the policies of a sitting president. It happens all the time, and as a matter of fact, there is a long tradition of it in this country.

I'm quite sure that Americans are not the only ones that get annoyed when some protest or another blocks their route to work and makes them late.

Riot cops are people, not mindless automatons. Most, I am sure, separate their work life from their personal life and act just like any other normal person in social situations. I use physical force in my job daily. That's work. When I am home, it's a completely different story.

Riot cops don't get to decide that a town in Kansas is a threat to national security.

The only place I hear about all this 'patriotic fervor' is on this message board, mostly from people that don't live here. Yes, there are people proud of our soldiers, and yes, there are people that even whole-heartedly believe that we are doing the right thing in Iraq, but in my day to day life I don't see people thumping their chests and signing patriotic songs. For most of the country, life goes on as usual. You work, you spend time with family and friends. Just like before the war, and I am sure just like after the war.

It gets a little tedious to keep hearing how things are here, how "most Americans'" think and feel, from people that aren't even in the damn country.

Sure, I know, we have a world full of experts on America because people read this or that in the news, saw such and such movie, and took a two week vacation to NY back in '92, but seriously, most of the **** I read on here about this country bears little reflection on the country I live in.

People here aren't a whole lot different than the people I've met anywhere else in the world, and I wish folks would figure that out.

I didn't know whether to laugh or cry when I read this. At first I hosed myself because I used to think I was the only one here without a sense of humour.

Then I wanted to cry because I realised our buddy Thinkinsane must be a cop or something to get so righteously upset when it's pointed out to him that riot cops don't carry those nut crackers, padded armour and covered helmets because it will get them extra money on the side in Hollywood. I've had my run-ins with the law in my time in South Africa, Belgium, Berlin, Israel and Switzerland, and my experiences were less than pleasant. Mostly, riot cops tend to get carried away in the fun of things and end up bashing a few skulls more than needed. This isn't to say that a lot of demonstrators and rioters aren't asking for a thrashing, but still. And most of the cops I've known privately have not been worth the trouble.

YMMV (especially if you get so upset when your boys in blue don't get treated like god himself)

I wrote my post at around 5:30 AM and it was partly a reflection of what I've read here on this board when the anti-war demos were going on in January and Febuary and people here were complaining that demonstrators should not be allowed to block roads -- and no I've never heard people complaining about that anywhere else, honestly --, partly taking the piss of all the "OMGWTF, the cops are nazis, it's the end of the world" posts and pointing out that quite a lot of you Americans on this board are proud of yo country and yo prez (So what? Feel free to be proud if you want.) and that there are legitimate concerns about Osama and company attacking this again. I actually thought I was doing the pro America crowd a favour for a change. Ah well, can't please 'em all.

In any case, what the ****, I just want to retire to a nice sunny and isolated part of this world (preferably with a beach) and swim/surf/write/read/have wild sex and not have to think about all this drivel because it is so ****ing mindless constantly reading the same hate/love America/Israel/Europe/Moslems/Jews/Democrats/Republicans/Socialists/Nazis/Capitalists stuff that just goes round and round in circles and never changes one single bloody thing.

Why the hell does no one ever post about China or Burma or Vanuatu or the bloody Vatican or Buddhists or Hindus??? Why the hell does no one here ever try to listen to what others say (I know I don't)??? What the hell is wrong with us all anyway???

[Troll]

Originally posted by theolein:
Why the hell does no one ever post about China or Burma or Vanuatu or the bloody Vatican or Buddhists or Hindus??? Why the hell does no one here ever try to listen to what others say (I know I don't)??? What the hell is wrong with us all anyway???

Vanuatu is a very interesting place. I didn't realise how interesting a place it was until I got involved with some clients who ... oh yes, client confidentiality and all.

Anyway, did you know that there are no intellectual property rights in Vanuatu? So, theoretically, you could set up a factory in Vanuatu copying G5 Macs and Apple couldn't do a darn thing about it. Theoretically of course ...

I'm with you on the good life theory. Vat van jou Swiss Francs en koop vir jou 'n plekkie in Kommetjie en 'n bakkie-vol bier. Ek orgynise vir ons die vroumense!

[ThinkInsane]

Originally posted by theolein:

In any case, what the ****, I just want to retire to a nice sunny and isolated part of this world (preferably with a beach) and swim/surf/write/read/have wild sex and not have to think about all this drivel because it is so ****ing mindless constantly reading the same hate/love America/Israel/Europe/Moslems/Jews/Democrats/Republicans/Socialists/Nazis/Capitalists stuff that just goes round and round in circles and never changes one single bloody thing.

Now on this we are in complete agreement. From the beach to the running around in circles and nothing changing. Spot on in those regards.

I will clarify some of the things I said. I'm not mindlessly supporting anyone. I am certain that riot cops here, and the world over, have gone overboard when it comes to swinging their clubs. I just don't think that makes them all mindless machines that can't function in any other capacity.

I can't speak for any other country, but here we don't have specific 'riot cops'. They are regular cops that gear up and get sent to demonstrations when needed. After, they take off that gear, get back in their patrol cars and do regular cop jobs.

Mostly, I just get frustrated when I keep reading 'Most Americans think _____" when it is directly contrary to what I see every day. If people in the US make broad generalizations about.... say... the French, then we are labeled as ignorant nationalists. Its the double standard that I don't care for.

I don't see all this blind patriotism that I keep reading about here. I don't see blind allegiance to Bush. I'm a republican that will be voting for Wesley Clark if he makes it through the democratic primary. How is that blind allegiance? I know many other people that would vote for someone other than Bush if they felt their was a better candidate. Unfortunately I think (and this is just my opinion) that the dems have fielded a poor selection, and that's unfortunate.

So, if my posted sounded unnecessarily harsh, I apologize.

P.S. Quit circumventing the cuss filter.

[theolein]

Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
Now on this we are in complete agreement. From the beach to the running around in circles and nothing changing. Spot on in those regards.

I will clarify some of the things I said. ,,,,

So, if my posted sounded unnecessarily harsh, I apologize.

P.S. Quit circumventing the cuss filter.

No sweat. Sounds like you could use some time on a beach as well. Me 'n Troll will invite you round for a beer and braai (bbq) if I ever get to Kommetjie.

Now, to that cuss filter. I love swearing (cussing) on occasion as I am of the truly honest opinion that it adds spice to the language in this overly PC world of ours. I'm willing to tone it down a little, but that on occaision I will still test the rigidity of the system, so to speak. To be honest, I'm amazed that you people haven't been able to check for empty square brackets yet (I think you Americans call them just brackets, or was that braces?). I don't know the PHP code but I assume it's done with regular expressions, and it would be an interesting exercise for a coder here, now wouldn't it?

[theolein]

Originally posted by Troll:
Vanuatu is a very interesting place. I didn't realise how interesting a place it was until I got involved with some clients who ... oh yes, client confidentiality and all.

Anyway, did you know that there are no intellectual property rights in Vanuatu? So, theoretically, you could set up a factory in Vanuatu copying G5 Macs and Apple couldn't do a darn thing about it. Theoretically of course ...

I'm with you on the good life theory. Vat van jou Swiss Francs en koop vir jou 'n plekkie in Kommetjie en 'n bakkie-vol bier. Ek orgynise vir ons die vroumense!

Dis mos 'n blerrie gooie idee, ouboet! I might do just that. I think Gordons bay might be even better, though. Ever been there? There's a tiny bar and I met one of Madiba's ex-aides there, a boertjie to boot, who had some interesting stories to tell.

[ThinkInsane]

Originally posted by theolein:
No sweat. Sounds like you could use some time on a beach as well. Me 'n Troll will invite you round for a beer and braai (bbq) if I ever get to Kommetjie.

I'm long over due for a vacation. You guys pick the beach, I'll bring the beer.