[Beewee]

Ok my thanksgiving was basically the most disgusting display of American arrogance I have ever seen. My grandmother, dad, and older brother start out the holiday by complaining about the number of hispanics we have in this country.

My grandmother tells us of a story where she told a hispanic woman to "Talk right." because she couldn't understand her through her accent. My brother then does an horrible impression of a person speaking spanish. It gets worse...

We then start talking about Jessica Lynch and how she is pissed off at the military and the bush administration for using her as a pro-war icon. To this my dad shows an attitude of, "Sure if you can believe what she has to say."

We then go over to a relatives house to eat and all I here about is how we wasted Sadam Hussin and those people will be much happier now.
We talk about the suicides of American troops while my brother --who is in the National Guard-- makes an observation that they were "Just a bunch of babies that can't handle stress." (Even though he has never been in a combat situation in his entire life.) I then talked over the phone with a cousin in Iraq who said that "Its not as bad as the media makes it out to be." For some reason --I think it was the tone of his voice-- he just didn't sound sincere. It sounded like that was what he was "supposed" to say.

The more I hung around these people the more braincells I killed. And I am not saying that people that are patrotic are stupid, but what do you call a person that refuses to believe anything you say that might shake his/her fantasy that the USA is the greatest country in the world?

Now I know what the stars on the flag stand for...its how many IQ points a person drops...

Comments? Questions?

[Zimphire]

I stayed away from MacNN particularly THIS forum so it wouldn't ruin my Holidays with all the AntianythingthathastodowithbushortheUS whining that continually goes on in here.

Both sides of the coin.

[sideus]

Did you speak your views to them? Or did you keep it all bottled up inside then run to MacNN to post your feelings? Talk to them about it.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I stayed away from MacNN particularly THIS forum so it wouldn't ruin my Holidays with all the AntianythingthathastodowithbushortheUS whining that continually goes on in here.

Both sides of the coin.

I'm sad the holidays are over.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
I'm sad the holidays are over.

ditto.

[Zimphire]

[thunderous_funker]

I grew up in a family where politics and current events were the main topic at dinner all through my childhood.

Unfortunately, as I got older, my opinions became less and less compatible with my family. After a few arguments and some ugliness I quickly realized it just wasn't worth it.

Now I kind of pick my moments when I can express my concerns over issues and hear their opinion without it turning into a fight. But learning to simply bite my tongue and avoid a scene was infinitely more valuable in the long run.

Life's too short to wreck family relatons over something you are powerless to change. It can be frustrating, but you'll be better off to just avoid it or maybe leave it be with a "I don't see it that way" and change the subject.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
I grew up in a family where politics and current events were the main topic at dinner all through my childhood.

Unfortunately, as I got older, my opinions became less and less compatible with my family. After a few arguments and some ugliness I quickly realized it just wasn't worth it.

Now I kind of pick my moments when I can express my concerns over issues and hear their opinion without it turning into a fight. But learning to simply bite my tongue and avoid a scene was infinitely more valuable in the long run.

Life's too short to wreck family relatons over something you are powerless to change. It can be frustrating, but you'll be better off to just avoid it or maybe leave it be with a "I don't see it that way" and change the subject.

Politics were never discussed in my home. My father was a strict authoritarian, among other things, and I always assumed he voted conservative. I was taken aback, when home from college one Christmas Break, he was complaining how his vote for Anderson was not enough to make a difference. Shocked, I said "Anderson?" and then we had a long political discussion which amazed me to realize if anything, my dad was more liberal or libertarian than I had previously thought. The odd thing is he just deigned never to discuss politics with me until I acheived adulthood.

hmmm...perhaps that rule could be applied here?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
hmmm...perhaps that rule could be applied here?

That would leave out a lot of the lefty's in here.

All of the conservatives in here have past our teenage years long ago.

[riverfreak]

Of course, everyone is entitled to their own political view. And in an ideal setting (like an isolated college forum) one should be able to have these discussions in a tempered manner.

If you strongly about your views that it taints your impression of other people, then you *especially* should avoid talking politics / finances / religion with family members.

This is especially true over the holidays. Like any annual event, it's a time of reflection. That coupled with the expectation that it's supposed to be a joyous time and the hectic nature of crowded holiday schedules (and roads, etc) tend to get people's panties in a bunch.

My solution: remain quietyl smug with people's ignorance, throwing in an occasional reference that they wouldn't understand anyways. I get to make my points, they quietly brush off the comments without having to admit their ignorance. Everybody wins.

Oh yeah --

and I drink a helluva lot of wine.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Beewee:


Comments? Questions?

I get this all the time -- right and left. I've had people make racist comments, assuming that nobody present would object. This used to happen to me a fair bit in the Army -- usually because they looked around , saw no minorities present and assumed that it was therefore OK to vent their bile. In those situations I always spoke up no matter who it is.

These days I mostly get inappropriate political comments from liberals simply because I live in a city that is probably 90% liberal Democrat. In that environment, people assume that you are in that 90%. My worst one lately was a liberal job interviewer whose idea of breaking the ice was to start talking about the Iraq invasion. Now, that was uncomfortable. It wasn't like it was a political job, it was with a major law firm. (And no, I didn't entirely bite my tongue and I still got the job).

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I get this all the time -- right and left. I've had people make racist comments, assuming that nobody present would object. This used to happen to me a fair bit in the Army -- usually because they looked around , saw no minorities present and assumed that it was therefore OK to vent their bile. In those situations I always spoke up no matter who it is.

These days I mostly get inappropriate political comments from liberals simply because I live in a city that is probably 90% liberal Democrat. In that environment, people assume that you are in that 90%. My worst one lately was a liberal job interviewer whose idea of breaking the ice was to start talking about the Iraq invasion. Now, that was uncomfortable. It wasn't like it was a political job, it was with a major law firm. (And no, I didn't entirely bite my tongue and I still got the job).

I once worked at a newspaper in which I was the ONLY liberal. In Las Vegas.
They were gung ho Reagan at the time, with ra-ra go mr. reagan headlines and such. The publisher was friends with him. I still spoke my mind, being young and unwitting, and it made for some very heated political arguments with other employees.

no big deal. If I could handle it, you can, too.

[Beewee]

Originally posted by sideus:
Did you speak your views to them? Or did you keep it all bottled up inside then run to MacNN to post your feelings? Talk to them about it.

When ever I talk to my family (especially my Dad's side.) I am perceived as either "foolish, stupid, a dreamer." or "white noise." I did try to talk to them before we went to the house for dinner but all I got was smug looks and "your wrong." They refused to hear anything of it. And there was no way I was going to let my feelings known with one of my relatives in Iraq at that very moment. If they didn't listen to me when there was on 3 of them (Dad, Grandma, Older brother.) what would make 3 times as many people with the exact same views listen.

Its easy to sit back in your chair and just say "Your wrong and I'm right." And it helps when you have 9-10 people to back you up. I was solo.

[The Ayatollah]

maybe you are wrong. Your anti-american feelings could be teenage rebellion.

[eklipse]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
maybe you are wrong. Your anti-american feelings could be teenage rebellion.

Um....what precisely is 'anti-American' about his feelings?

[Beewee]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
maybe you are wrong.

I know I could be wrong but I also know that our government is not infalable and does make mistakes. Only difference is if I'm wrong or make a mistake no one is going to start a "war" over it and no one will die because of it.

Your anti-american feelings could be teenage rebellion.

I hope you're joking.

Conformists always think someone is "rebelling" when they refuse to blindly follow the norm, or its "Just a phase." As far anti-americanism goes I have never thought of myself as an "American" I think of myself as an individual that happens to live in America.

Now do your "patriotic" duty and have me shipped away under the Patriot Act for my terroristic ideals.

[UR-20]

Originally posted by eklipse:
Um....what precisely is 'anti-American' about his feelings?

Oh I don't know? How about his "seeing things from different perspectives", and "independent thinking" to start with!

[davesimondotcom]

Just curious, if your relatives had agreed with all your points of view, would you give them credit for being "pro-thinking?"

I mean, just because they don't agree with you doesn't mean they don't think.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
maybe you are wrong. Your anti-american feelings could be teenage rebellion.

Or anti anything that is part of the establishment.

I grew up with Republicans being in power. They were the bad guys because I was rebelling and being different.

That is why I voted for Clinton. I was being a rebel.

I thought I was cool.

Then in grew up and realized how pretentious it all was.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
That would leave out a lot of the lefty's in here.

All of the conservatives in here have past our teenage years long ago.

Just because they don't have no more pimples doesn't mean they are all grown up, you know

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
I grew up in a family where politics and current events were the main topic at dinner all through my childhood.

Unfortunately, as I got older, my opinions became less and less compatible with my family. After a few arguments and some ugliness I quickly realized it just wasn't worth it.

Now I kind of pick my moments when I can express my concerns over issues and hear their opinion without it turning into a fight. But learning to simply bite my tongue and avoid a scene was infinitely more valuable in the long run.

Life's too short to wreck family relatons over something you are powerless to change. It can be frustrating, but you'll be better off to just avoid it or maybe leave it be with a "I don't see it that way" and change the subject.

Good advice.

But if they are at your place, you can also tell them (politely) to shut up.

My hostmom did it to my hostgrandfather at Thanksgiving. He uttered some racist comments about blacks, so my hostmom told him `well, not in my house, I don't wanna hear that kind of stuff.' That worked.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
...

My worst one lately was a liberal job interviewer whose idea of breaking the ice was to start talking about the Iraq invasion. Now, that was uncomfortable. It wasn't like it was a political job, it was with a major law firm. (And no, I didn't entirely bite my tongue and I still got the job).

Well, maybe you impressed them by saying what you think and standing to what you believe is right.

I know many people that really respected me for just politely telling them truthfully what I think about things (including them).

[mr. natural]

This is funny, because at my family gatherings it was my mom that was rabid about folks like Bush. As my brother said about her at her memorial, she was "the most glamorous mother on the block, with the vocabulary of a fishwife." In essence, she would curse to high heaven any and all comers whom she deemed failed the test of "noblesse oblige."

Although she is no longer around, I can readily imagine the lambasting she would of dressed our turkey feast with while considering the state of the world today.

She was a no BS treat, which often embarrassed me in public. And as much as I miss her, the things going down today would probably raise her blood pressure so much as to give her a heart attack.




R.I.P. Mom. Your children are carrying on the good fight.

[undotwa]

My family has mixed political views.

My extended family on my mother side is somewhat socialist, and somewhat anti-American. If politics comes up, I often disagree, especially on social issues. But they aren't that defensive of their views. And the extended family on my father's side is extremely conservative, and extremely anti-American (my Grandfather fought against the communists in Greece). I generally try to steer clear of even mentioning politics when around them.

Both my parents however, are quite conservative on social issues, as am I, but somewhat liberal on issues on governance.

The most heated discussion of politics which I have been in, was when my Uncle came over dressed in a 'Socialist Alliance' t-shirt, with slogans like 'Free the Refugees', and 'Stop Dropping Bombs', etc., Anyway, he was complaining that many people who looked at him called him a communist. My father overheard the discussion and tactlessly started to use sarcasm and tried to point out the naïvety of my uncle. It ended up getting pretty heated.

[BlackGriffen]

My dad hated Clinton. Thought he was scum. Hated Gore too. Still does.

Hates Bush now, too. In large part due to the crappy supply job done for the troops in Iraq. He says read some article about a local unit having to beg for supplies from the Iraqis during major operations or some such (I never saw it, so I cannot vouch for it - the paper he reads is the Salt Lake Tribune if anyone wants to go fishing), and that was it.

I don't think Bush could redeem himself, in my pappy's eyes.

So, even though my family covers a rather broad political spectrum, nobody likes Bush anymore.

Much as I don't like all my father's politics, I give the man credit for thinking for himself. I know he does because, as they say, the proof is in the pudding. Only those who do not think never change their minds.

BlackGriffen

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by davesimondotcom:
Just curious, if your relatives had agreed with all your points of view, would you give them credit for being "pro-thinking?"

I mean, just because they don't agree with you doesn't mean they don't think.

excellent point...However...

Perhaps a better characterization would be that the poster felt uncomfortable with the opposing viewpoints. I did note he mentioned some racist comments in there among the conservative comments. I know when people make racist comments around me, I'm VERY uncomfortable.
My sister is married to a republican politician, nice enough guy I thought, but once on a visit, just out of the blue, he says, "I like it here, we republicans have worked real hard to keep the blacks out.". Now, I didn't even want to ask him what he meant by that, and it was none of my business, so I didn't want to stir the pot, but it certainly soured me on the visit. NOT because he was republican, but because of the racist nature of the comment.

He's a very intelligent fellow, though, keeps up with politics, watches all the talking head meet the nation sorts of shows, and I can discuss politics with him without getting into an argument...but still....

[einmakom]

And the racist comments from Democrats I have known bother me just as much as racist comments from anyone else.

Like comments about Estrada's judicial tie-up - it doesn't mean they hate minorities. No, they like them, but only if they're liberals. If they aren't, they're ungrateful "Uncle Toms", or so I was told by a Democrat.

Disturbing.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
excellent point...However...

Perhaps a better characterization would be that the poster felt uncomfortable with the opposing viewpoints. I did note he mentioned some racist comments in there among the conservative comments. I know when people make racist comments around me, I'm VERY uncomfortable.
My sister is married to a republican politician, nice enough guy I thought, but once on a visit, just out of the blue, he says, "I like it here, we republicans have worked real hard to keep the blacks out.". Now, I didn't even want to ask him what he meant by that, and it was none of my business, so I didn't want to stir the pot, but it certainly soured me on the visit. NOT because he was republican, but because of the racist nature of the comment.

He's a very intelligent fellow, though, keeps up with politics, watches all the talking head meet the nation sorts of shows, and I can discuss politics with him without getting into an argument...but still....

I agree completely. Racists make me uncomfortable as well. But that's their intent, isn't it?

I just remember how awful I felt watching the Broncos lose the Super Bowl to the Washington Redskins years ago (because I'm a die hard Broncos fan.) But I felt bad because my team lost. Meanwhile, my parent's guest was railing into the Broncos for losing to that "n*****" quarterback (Doug Williams, now a very successfull head coach at Grambling.)

Needless to say, the man was not invited back for another Super Bowl. But even though my team was playing, I spent most of the day in my room or outside playing football because he made me so uncomfortable.

In that way, I can see the "anti-thinking" reference. Racism is just that, a lack of thinking.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by davesimondotcom:
I agree completely. Racists make me uncomfortable as well. But that's their intent, isn't it?

Possibly. Sometimes I think their intent is to fit in with people they assume will also be racist.

Like one time I was car shopping and the salesman watched me have a hard time fitting into a japanese car. (I'm 6'4", but I can usually find SOME model to fit in). As I'm climbing out of the car, he says conspiratorially, "Well, that's because those slant-eyes make 'em. They don't know how to design em for us red blooded americans.". Now, I doubt he was trying to make me uncomfortable (though he accomplished that. I think he assumed that a big white guy like me was going to have similar views as himself.

Who knows? maybe on some level racists and bigots know they're doing something wrong, and hope to surround themselves with likeminded folk so they can relax and feel more comfortable?

feh, on the other hand, analyzing bigots is a waste of time.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
Like one time I was car shopping and the salesman watched me have a hard time fitting into a japanese car. (I'm 6'4", but I can usually find SOME model to fit in). As I'm climbing out of the car, he says conspiratorially, "Well, that's because those slant-eyes make 'em. They don't know how to design em for us red blooded americans.". Now, I doubt he was trying to make me uncomfortable (though he accomplished that. I think he assumed that a big white guy like me was going to have similar views as himself.

I'm 6'2", but my height is mostly in my upper body (short legs) - and I have trouble fitting into most AMERICAN cars without having to tilt my head to the side.

Meanwhile, my brother, who is 6'4", but has a 42" inseam (10" longer legs than mine), can fit into anything, it seems. (Even if he does have to drive from the back seat.

[boots]

Kinda funny: growing up, I was Alex P. Keaten. I was a gung-ho young republican. Then I went to college and learned to see more than just what I was being told by my parents. Things got pretty uncomfortable with my folks (Mom, especially) for many years. As I grew up, I learned to pick my fights.

As someone already said, it isn't really worth undermining family ties for something you can't change. So now, we have "friendly" discussions about the problems. We don't delve into the solutions or the causes, we just stick to identifying problems. My folks are pretty racist too. Perhaps that's somewhat understandable since we lived in a very white town. The only black family was the Army recruiters. And the only contact my dad had with non-whites was in conjunction with his job. He was a state trooper for 30-some years. He was deployed to the race riots in Detroit. If all you see is the ugly, you have a skewed view. It's still sad though.

I consider myself a moderate now. I think the Dem's are just plain foundering right now...no one has any ideas about how to fix things...and the republicans are simply abusing their power right now. The two party system sucks because the bicker over the same fine points while neither really addresses the issue.

I have to say that I'm impressed (though very frightened and appalled) by the current "bankrupt the system" solution for welfare and medicare. Sheer political genius.

The big difference between me and my parents (and brother, for that matter), though, is that I don't buy into the wedge politics like they do. The most heated discussions we ever got into were around the wedge issues. So I choose not to discuss those anymore. It's a monumental waste of time arguing about gay marriage when we have such a high percentage of our children well under the poverty line (for example). Time for some new priorities, as far as I'm concerned.

[BoomStick]

Originally posted by Beewee:
Hunting some cheese with my whine.

My nephew got killed 5 minutes after Thanksgiving dinner as we watched in horror.



Sorry your's was so intolerable.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by BoomStick:
My nephew got killed 5 minutes after Thanksgiving dinner as we watched in horror.



Sorry your's was so intolerable.

oh my god...my thoughts to your family.
What in the world happened?

[davesimondotcom]

Holy cow BroomStick... that's awful.

[BoomStick]

He was doing stupid things with a 600lb, 300cc four wheel ATV.

They don't fly too well apparently.

[Zimphire]

Now if we could only get Beewee's family in here to tell the other side of the story.

Funny how dems always relate to conservatives as anti-thinking.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I stayed away from MacNN particularly THIS forum so it wouldn't ruin my Holidays with all the AntianythingthathastodowithbushortheUS whining that continually goes on in here.

Both sides of the coin.

Ahhh could you continue doing that?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Ahhh could you continue doing that?

It was funnier the 1st two times it was said.

See my reply above to those making comments of the like.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by BoomStick:
My nephew got killed 5 minutes after Thanksgiving dinner as we watched in horror.



Sorry your's was so intolerable.

.

[Myrkridia]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Now if we could only get Beewee's family in here to tell the other side of the story.

Funny how dems always relate to conservatives as anti-thinking.

When someone makes a racist comment, that is anti-thinking. When somebody wants to take the word of the government over the person who actually went through the experience, (Lynch) that is anti-thinking.
When someone doesn't even acknowledge another person's point of view as valid, simply because they don't agree with it, that is anti-thinking.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
Did you eat him?

I hope you've had a chance to read the rest of the thread and realize it wasn't a joke.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
I hope you've had a chance to read the rest of the thread and realize it wasn't a joke.

I guess I did miss the part about the ATV.

Sorry, Boomstick. I thought you were just displaying a morbid sense of humor. My apologies and condolences.

[Beewee]

Originally posted by davesimondotcom:
Just curious, if your relatives had agreed with all your points of view, would you give them credit for being "pro-thinking?"

I mean, just because they don't agree with you doesn't mean they don't think.

I don't say they are anti-thinking because they don't agree with what I have to say. I am saying they are anti-thinking because they won't even listen to anything that could affect their beliefs. I was actually told before I we went over to the house not to say anything political; while the entire time I had to listen to them all talk about getting Toby Keith and his stupid song "The Arrogant American."
(I may have fudged on the name...) Its fine when people don't agree with other people but when they out-right call you ideas and beliefs "Stupid" and call you stupid for believing them it pisses me off.

After dinner we went out to get a movie and my dad uttered a sound of disgust when he saw "Bowling for Columbine." Basically calling it crap and so-on. He has never seen the movie but knows that the NRA isn't presented in a flattering light. But again he didn't want to watch the movie because it was horrible it was because it attacked his beliefs and instead of watching it to see what the other side had to say he preferred to wallow in his ignorance.

Basically that is what it boils down to for me. You aren't anti-thinking if you don't agree with me; you are anti-thinking when you refuse to see multiple sides of a situation and remain ignorant to protect your beliefs.

Unfortunately in my situtation I could either bite my tongue and just eat (which pissed me off.) or I could have said what I felt (which would have pissed everyone else off including me.) So I was damned either way.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally posted by Beewee:
Basically that is what it boils down to for me. You aren't anti-thinking if you don't agree with me; you are anti-thinking when you refuse to see multiple sides of a situation and remain ignorant to protect your beliefs.

Not criticizing you, but just curious, did you consider THEIR point of view at all?

[Zimphire]

BFC was a piece of crap. I actually did watch it.

Beewee what you are describing at your house reminds me a lot of what goes on in this forum.

And it's not the Repubs that are doing it.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
BFC was a piece of crap. I actually did watch it.

Beewee what you are describing at your house reminds me a lot of what goes on in this forum.

And it's not the Repubs that are doing it.

LOL! in your universe, the winged republican cherubim float over the coals of their own hubris, flapping their wings at the demons of liberalism, rutting and wallowing in their evil troughs, unable to raise their neanderthal heads to do any good deed.



Back in the REAL world, it takes two to tangle, and both sides bear some responsibility for conflicts between them.

[Mister Elf]

That's ridiculous...your family is extremely right...and I'm a longtime conservative.

Politics should not be discussed on holidays.

[moki]

Originally posted by Beewee:
I then talked over the phone with a cousin in Iraq who said that "Its not as bad as the media makes it out to be." For some reason --I think it was the tone of his voice-- he just didn't sound sincere. It sounded like that was what he was "supposed" to say.

So what you're saying is that you don't believe your cousin, who is actually in Iraq, and in a better position to know than you ever will be? You dismiss it as him being forced to tell you that?

I'm sorry to hear that your grandparents have anti-immigrant feelings, that's certainly regrettable. However it seems like the person who had the largest problem at the Thanksgiving table was you, from where I sit.

The reason I say that is you made up your mind ahead of time on an issue, and nothing is going to shake you from that, even reality phoned in from your cousin.

[Myrkridia]

Originally posted by moki:
So what you're saying is that you don't believe your cousin, who is actually in Iraq, and in a better position to know than you ever will be? You dismiss it as him being forced to tell you that?

I'm sorry to hear that your grandparents have anti-immigrant feelings, that's certainly regrettable. However it seems like the person who had the largest problem at the Thanksgiving table was you, from where I sit.

The reason I say that is you made up your mind ahead of time on an issue, and nothing is going to shake you from that, even reality phoned in from your cousin.

Oh come on Moki, like you've never had a friend or relative call you on the phone, say everythings' fine even though something in their tone tells you that's not so. Maybe because they didn't want a pep talk, maybe because they didn't want you to worry. Do you actually think ANY soldier over in Iraq is going to call his/her family up on Thanksgiving day and tell them how many bullets they dodged, or how many friends they lost?

Yeah you're right, it's a pity he couldn't just ignore his own beliefs and views about the "War" then he could of had a happy Thanksgiving and join in with the "Saddam sucks/we kicked their butts" coversation.

[saab95]

Thanksgiving ruined by American-centric, Pro-war, Anti-thinking relatives.

Not for me it hasn't.

1. We did not have to cook- we went to relatives.

2. We didn't discuss politics at all

3. My cranky parents didn't show up because the weather forecasts spooked them.

4. the meal was absolutely divine!

Only problem was the lack of a salad! Had we known we would have gladly furnished it.