[thunderous_funker]

lots of controversial unintended consequences

Oh, and its a blame Clinton thing so don't be afraid to enjoy it.

[The Ayatollah]

there is no real border policy. The US government couldn't do less about monitoring what comes across that border, be it by land, sea, or air from Mexico.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
there is no real border policy. The US government couldn't do less about monitoring what comes across that border, be it by land, sea, or air from Mexico.

I think you might be surprised by whats in the article.

[wang_himself]

It's an OK article. I like how they got the facts right: "2,000-mile-long border, only 3.5 percent of it, about 70 miles’ worth, is fortified against illegal immigration." I really have to say is big Deal about how many people that have died while tying to enter the United States illegally. They are entering the USA illegally. We are not responsible for these individuals. They are treaspassing on our territory. It is like how we can blow any ship out of the water that comes within 2 miles of the United States coastline without US approval. They would be treaspassing.

I just want to know why California feels that these people who are dying at the border from trying to illegally enter the US needs a valid california driver license?

[petehammer]

Main Entry: knee jerk reaction:

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
there is no real border policy. The US government couldn't do less about monitoring what comes across that border, be it by land, sea, or air from Mexico.

Way to read the article, dude!

[thunderous_funker]

I think you missed the point. That being that the total militarization of the border and the threat of death has done absolutely zero to slow down the rate of illegal immigration.

“Border enforcement is a low-cost, feel-good alternative,” says Cornelius. “It’s the least disruptive to employers and requires no sacrifices from Americans.” While enforcement along the border has seen a tripling of resources under the new strategy, resources for “inside” enforcement have withered to 2 percent of the immigration budget. In the year 2000, only 178 American employers were fined for hiring illegal immigrants, and only 1,000 undocumented workers were apprehended in their workplaces. Workplace enforcement has declined even further in the last three years, despite last October’s high-profile arrest of 300 Wal-Mart workers. There are somewhere between 8 million and 12 million undocumented immigrants working and living in the U.S.

Perhaps this is the problem?

Those who raise the cry of hypocrisy on the border policy do so because we continue to basically wink at the primary source of the problem--millions of illegals seem to have no trouble finding a job.

No jobs, no illegals. Its really quite a simple equation.

Its about unintended consequences. The very expensive militarized border isn't solving the problem, only creating new ones.

That is, of course, unless you consider 400 dead mexicans a year a solution to the 12 million undocumented workers and the half a million more that join them every year.

[wang_himself]

Better yet, just invade Mexico and make it a US territory. We can add it to our growing collection.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by wang_himself:
Better yet, just invade Mexico and make it a US territory. We can add it to our growing collection.

Nah, then we'd have to pay them minimum wage. Defeats the whole purpose.

[wang_himself]

Not if we lower the federal minimum wage to dirt

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by wang_himself:
Not if we lower the federal minimum wage to dirt

Now you're thinking straight. I think there is a job for you in Bush's cabinet.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally posted by wang_himself:
Better yet, just invade Mexico and make it a US territory. We can add it to our growing collection.

Mexico: America's Vacationland.

Free Corona While It Lasts.

[The Ayatollah]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
I think you missed the point. That being that the total militarization of the border and the threat of death has done absolutely zero to slow down the rate of illegal immigration.

hahahah. There is no total militarisation of the border. it's still wide open. If it was militarised, it'd be packed with groud surveillance radar, flir (forward-looking infrared), and motion sensors, along with thousands of soldiers, UAVs (RPVs), and other stuff that says the US is serious about border enforcement.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
hahahah. There is no total militarisation of the border. it's still wide open. If it was militarised, it'd be packed with groud surveillance radar, flir (forward-looking infrared), and motion sensors, along with thousands of soldiers, UAVs (RPVs), and other stuff that says the US is serious about border enforcement.

Hence the title of the article including the word "hypocrisy".

A perfect barrier is within our technolgoical and finacial means. If it were truly desirable to seal the border, it would happen.

But as long as the businesses of certains states benefit immensely from the exploitation of illegals, no one feels too motivated to actually seal the border.

Instead, they make a show of it by militarizing the natural crossing points, thereby funneling the unslowed flow of illegals into other areas creating the problems we are now talking about.

They aren't risking their lives to cross the dessert for the fun of it. They aren't doing it because the love the USA. They are doing it because immoral employers in this country pay them to do it.

[el chupacabra]

If the border was to get sealed up in the near future wouldn't they just find another way in? Like get in a boat and just go far enough out at sea then circle home to the US?

Theres only one way to solve this. Declare war on mexico. And put up a 14 foot wall on the border with motion activated automatic rapid fire nuclear turrets every 20 feet.

Y debemos tomar ese tipo de la iglesia que pone agua fuera para ellos, y le vende como un esclavo a México.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
I think you missed the point. That being that the total militarization of the border and the threat of death has done absolutely zero to slow down the rate of illegal immigration.

Even the Berlin Wall didn't cut migration to zero.

[Developer]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Even the Berlin Wall didn't cut migration to zero.

I think the point of the article (only read first half) is that checking after illegal employment might be more effective.

[wang_himself]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
Now you're thinking straight. I think there is a job for you in Bush's cabinet.

I would do well in it! I would already have my eye set on Iran, then France.

[The Ayatollah]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
But as long as the businesses of certains states benefit immensely from the exploitation of illegals, no one feels too motivated to actually seal the border.

I agree, to an extent. However, illegal immigration costs many states (like AZ and CA) millions in additional services, additional crime (drug and enforcement related), and assorted expenditures. It really is a mess for all parties, and outweighs other problems. The guest worker program is a good opportunity for nonresidents to work in the US and earn some money, and should be expanded, and be combined with serious tracking of those on the program to ensure they obey the immigration laws and return to their country of origin, with the idea that they will be able to return legally again in the future.

I want legal immigration because I firmly believe that immigrants from all walks of life, who believe in the values of the US and the opportunities it presents for a better life, stand to greatly benefit the US system, its economy, and its future. Illegal immigration does more harm than it does supposed 'good'.

[The Ayatollah]

Originally posted by el chupacabra:
If the border was to get sealed up in the near future wouldn't they just find another way in? Like get in a boat and just go far enough out at sea then circle home to the US?

no. It becomes much harder to move people by sea on small boats. They are not seaworthy far beyond the coastline, and watercraft are more easily observed with the right equipment. If all drugs and illegals were forced into a seafaring method of entry, it would be easier to locate, subdue, confiscate, and/or deport people or items.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
hahahah. There is no total militarisation of the border. it's still wide open. If it was militarised, it'd be packed with groud surveillance radar, flir (forward-looking infrared), and motion sensors, along with thousands of soldiers, UAVs (RPVs), and other stuff that says the US is serious about border enforcement.

According to a Spiegel article, 100,000 people guard the border. $1 billion is spent annually.

I would call that serious.

[The Ayatollah]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
According to a Spiegel article, 100,000 people guard the border. $1 billion is spent annually.

I would call that serious.

No way it's 100,000 federal troops sitting on or near the border. No way. Der Spiegel must be counting city, county, and state law enforcement, and they must be inflating the numbers or counting personnel that don't actually matter. Give a breakdown of the mag's figures, and then I'll understand where they're getting this stuff. And the $1 billion could be a cumulative figure, too, and could include any border-related consequences unrelated to enforcement.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
No way it's 100,000 federal troops sitting on or near the border. No way. Der Spiegel must be counting city, county, and state law enforcement, and they must be inflating the numbers or counting personnel that don't actually matter. Give a breakdown of the mag's figures, and then I'll understand where they're getting this stuff. And the $1 billion could be a cumulative figure, too, and could include any border-related consequences unrelated to enforcement.

But it's certainly not your popularistic nothing.

[Spliffdaddy]

Hell, the 100,000 border guards can't be making more than $10,000/yr - how good of a job do you think they're doing?

100,000 my ass.

maybe 1,000.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Hell, the 100,000 border guards can't be making more than $10,000/yr - how good of a job do you think they're doing?

100,000 my ass.

maybe 1,000.

Well if they'd hire some hillbilly rednecks to guard the border I bet they'd do it for FREE. Just as long as they'd be allowed to take their trailers with them and work in the traditional white 'immigartion uniform' of the south

Bring your whole family Spliff! You can fix it (don't forget cousin Mary Sue and Billy Joe)

[gadster]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
I agree, to an extent.,snip> I firmly believe that immigrants from all walks of life, who believe in the values of the US and the opportunities it presents for a better life, stand to greatly benefit the US system, its economy, and its future. Illegal immigration does more harm than it does supposed 'good'.

Believe it or not,

I would also like to make the point out that these people are an asset for the US. You should embrace them and cherish them. In a way, we are all immigrants.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
I agree, to an extent. However, illegal immigration costs many states (like AZ and CA) millions in additional services, additional crime (drug and enforcement related), and assorted expenditures. ...

Yes. But the businesses who hire illegals are making out like bandits.

They externalize all the real costs of their exploitative practices on the public. And since governments are usually loathe to hurt businesses (especially agribusiness), they wink at the Demand side of the problem and throw billions more tax dollars at the Supply side of the problem.

You know, like the War on Drugs, War on Terror, Crime, etc..

And anyone who criticizes these failed policies is soft on crime, soft on terror, soft on drugs, etc....

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Even the Berlin Wall didn't cut migration to zero.

The militarized border hasn't slowed immigration at all. Only increased the costs, risks and introduced some nasty unintended consequences. Like the fact that the Mexican border has a higher death toll than the Berlin Wall.

[The Ayatollah]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
The militarized border hasn't slowed immigration at all. Only increased the costs, risks and introduced some nasty unintended consequences. Like the fact that the Mexican border has a higher death toll than the Berlin Wall.

the berlin wall was meant to keep east germans IN, and the US border patrol are there to keep drugs and illegals OUT. It is not the responsibility of The Great Satan to provide health care, employment, and education for mexicans.

[wang_himself]

You forgot about the Valid California Drivers Licenses