[The Ayatollah]

So it begins. France and Germany, the heart of Old Europe, refuse to let small countries have a bigger say in the EU of tomorrow. The Heart of Old Europe is bent on poisoning a federal, democratic, and integrated European system of government in order to keep their power, influence, and to line their pockets with big subsidies and trade protections.

Your Eurotopia is getting flushed down the loo and quick.

[lil'babykitten]

Can you try that again? Without all the spin.

[Spheric Harlot]

What?

Try reading the article next time you put anti-Euro propagandistic spin on something, won't you? Just once.

At the time the draft constitution was approved, for example, Spain and Poland vowed to amend it to preserve complex voting rights that give them power disproportionate to their populations.

So France and Germany opposing this is "poisoning a federal, democratic, and integrated European system of government"?

Dude, you're so full of it, it's embarrassing.

-s*

[eklipse]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:

[petehammer]

So, again I ask...

How many times has "Uday's Carcass" aka The Ayatollah been banned? What is his real name?

And why is he so angry?

[theolein]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
So it begins. France and Germany, the heart of Old Europe, refuse to let small countries have a bigger say in the EU of tomorrow. The Heart of Old Europe is bent on poisoning a federal, democratic, and integrated European system of government in order to keep their power, influence, and to line their pockets with big subsidies and trade protections.

Your Eurotopia is getting flushed down the loo and quick.

I don't actually know why you hate them so much, but the UK agrees in principle with Germany and France's position. I for one think it's probably a good idea if the Eu constitution gets shot down right now. It's started to become a bit of a farce lately, with all the watering down, compromises and special interests that have been forced into it.

Oh well, maybe a black hole will open up in central Europe tomorrow and swallow the whole continent. Perhaps you'll be happy then.

Would you like to tell us why you are so full of anger?

[finboy]

Originally posted by petehammer:
So, again I ask...

How many times has "Uday's Carcass" aka The Ayatollah been banned? What is his real name?

So, again, I ask...

What does any of that have to do with anything, and why can't you just contribute to the thread?

[petehammer]

Originally posted by finboy:
So, again, I ask...

What does any of that have to do with anything, and why can't you just contribute to the thread?

How many times?

[theolein]

Originally posted by finboy:
So, again, I ask...

What does any of that have to do with anything, and why can't you just contribute to the thread?

I dunno. I'd also be really interested to know why he seems to be so full of hate and/or anger. Just interest though.

[The Ayatollah]

Originally posted by theolein:
I dunno. I'd also be really interested to know why he seems to be so full of hate and/or anger. Just interest though.

I'm angry at the corruption, hypocrisy, and elitism of Western Europe and its inhabitants. We need look no further than the bounds of this very forum (though I have plenty of experience in real life with the eurotrash).

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
I'm angry at the corruption, hypocrisy, and elitism of Western Europe and its inhabitants. We need look no further than the bounds of this very forum (though I have plenty of experience in real life with the eurotrash).

Physician, heal thyself.

[Developer]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
though I have plenty of experience in real life with the eurotrash.

Laudate omnes gentes laudate
Magnificat en secula
Et anima mea laudate
Magnificat en secuala

Happy nation living in a happy nation
Where people understand
And dream of the perfect man
A situation leading to sweet salvation
For the people for the good
For mankind brotherhood

We're traveling in time

Ideas by man and only that will last
And over time we've turned to the past
That no man's fit to rule the world alone
A man will die but not his ideas

Happy nation...

We're traveling in time
Traveling in time

Tell them we've gone too far
Tell them we've gone too far
Happy nation come through
And I will dance with you
Happy nation

Happy nation...

[theolein]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
I'm angry at the corruption, hypocrisy, and elitism of Western Europe and its inhabitants. We need look no further than the bounds of this very forum (though I have plenty of experience in real life with the eurotrash).

Well, that's quite a lot of people to hate, then isn't it!

I know you include me in that hate, usually, but you might want to know that I'm not European. I'm South African. Troll's also a South African, and Face Ache and Gadster are Australians, so you might have to or want to extend that hatred to Africa and Australia as well.

FWIW, I baited you as often as I did on this forum, for the simple reason that I found your habit of mocking the dead and posting inflammatory comments in your signature extremely offensive. If you choose to regard that as elitism so be it.

I would be interested to know who these "Eurotrash" are that you've apparently met, and why exactly you think they're all corrupt, elitist and hypocritical.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
So it begins. France and Germany, the heart of Old Europe, refuse to let small countries have a bigger say in the EU of tomorrow. The Heart of Old Europe is bent on poisoning a federal, democratic, and integrated European system of government in order to keep their power, influence, and to line their pockets with big subsidies and trade protections.

Your Eurotopia is getting flushed down the loo and quick.

So have a clue what the dispute is all about? I mean factual knowledge, and why this is the case. Apparently not, otherwise you would post such "non-eurotrash".

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
So have a clue what the dispute is all about?

*Obviously* not.

He didn't even read (or at least understand) the article he posted, as I mentioned above.

-s*

[voodoo]

I'm Eurotrash and proud of it. Hey Spliffdaddy is a proud hillbilly!

We Icelanders were the first Europeans to discover America but we had the good sense to go back home and not tell anyone about it.

(Paraphrased from Oscar Wilde "Of course America had often been discovered before Columbus, but it had always been hushed up.")

[Powerbook]

http://boersen.manager-magazin.de/mm...ch=0&typ=0

THE END IS NEER!!! WE IS ALL GOING 2 BE STINKERN COMMUNISTS'S!

[ebuddy]

Maybe you all know something about Ayatollah that I don't. Honestly, I haven't been here long enough, but I must say...

requesting power "disproportionate to the population" is supposed to be a way of hindering "mob rules". Unless I'm missing something here (which is quite possible, I'm not joining the New York Times list to read the entire article) I don't see how he's so off-base. I live in a state comprised more of land than humankind and some may argue that we have power (i.e. #of representatives) "disproportionate to our population". Personally, I'm glad for this as all too often it's easy for anti-farm legislation to pop into bills. This is also how our electoral college works.

I wouldn't know to be honest. Are Europeans elitist? I would say in fairness that to categorize one as elitist they'd have to satisfy the criteria set by The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, fourth edition;

1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

a. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.

b. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by ebuddy:
Maybe you all know something about Ayatollah that I don't. Honestly, I haven't been here long enough, but I must say...

requesting power "disproportionate to the population" is supposed to be a way of hindering "mob rules". Unless I'm missing something here (which is quite possible, I'm not joining the New York Times list to read the entire article) I don't see how he's so off-base. I live in a state comprised more of land than humankind and some may argue that we have power (i.e. #of representatives) "disproportionate to our population". Personally, I'm glad for this as all too often it's easy for anti-farm legislation to pop into bills. This is also how our electoral college works.

I wouldn't know to be honest. Are Europeans elitist? I would say in fairness that to categorize one as elitist they'd have to satisfy the criteria set by The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, fourth edition;

1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

a. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.

b. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.

Sorry buddy, but you at least gotta do some research to form an opinion of your own. The current proposal by France and Germany simply require that 60 % of the population (meaning that you have to get enough countries to agree so that their combined population represents at least 60 % of all the EU population) is backing a decision. Small countries will still be (at least judging solely on their population) disproportionately overrepresented (to a large degree).

[theolein]

Originally posted by ebuddy:
Maybe you all know something about Ayatollah that I don't. Honestly, I haven't been here long enough, but I must say...

requesting power "disproportionate to the population" is supposed to be a way of hindering "mob rules". Unless I'm missing something here (which is quite possible, I'm not joining the New York Times list to read the entire article) I don't see how he's so off-base. I live in a state comprised more of land than humankind and some may argue that we have power (i.e. #of representatives) "disproportionate to our population". Personally, I'm glad for this as all too often it's easy for anti-farm legislation to pop into bills. This is also how our electoral college works.

I wouldn't know to be honest. Are Europeans elitist? I would say in fairness that to categorize one as elitist they'd have to satisfy the criteria set by The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, fourth edition;

1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

a. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.

b. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.

To be honest eBuddy, I think the thing with Ayatollah, has less to do with anyone being elitist than to do with his own peculiar posting habits. This is about the 7th nick that he's had, all of them called after some dead Al Qaida member or merely some Moslem, in its latest incarnation. He has been banned so often that he is in serious competition with Ca$h from the main lounge section for stubborn refusal to actually stay banned.

I find his nicks offensive and inflammatory, i.e. guaranteed to provoke arguments, and he has this strange habit of doing a half hearted attempt at imitating what he thinks that some dea Al Qaida member would say for half of his post, and then seeming to lose it and go into full frothing overdrive in hate ridden posts attacking anyone who is either European or to the left of Jerry Fallwell in the US.

The problem is that because he makes so many hate filled attacks, any real points that he would make get ignored or mocked by others. He probably is right in that there certainly are members here who attack anything the US does or doesn't do, often from a supposed moral standpoint (which is where he gets his "elitist" thing), but that of course posting that point in his usual hate filled way only gets him ignored and probably banned.

:shrug:

[The Ayatollah]

Originally posted by theolein:
merely some Moslem, in its latest incarnation.

merely a moslem! Oh no, my infidel haters of The Great Satan, I am The Ayatollah of Iran, and I bring the Wisdom of Ages via my direct Pipeline to Allah.

[theolein]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
... infidel haters of The Great Satan...

That would be a great name for a heavy metal band.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
merely a moslem! Oh no, my infidel haters of The Great Satan, I am The Ayatollah of Iran, and I bring the Wisdom of Ages via my direct Pipeline to Allah.

You never did have a sense of humors Scotty_H

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
merely a moslem! Oh no, my infidel haters of The Great Satan, I am The Ayatollah of Iran, and I bring the Wisdom of Ages via my direct Pipeline to Allah.

Haven't you embarrassed yourself enough with your first post in this thread?

-s*

[ebuddy]

I find his nicks offensive and inflammatory, i.e. guaranteed to provoke arguments, and he has this strange habit of doing a half hearted attempt at imitating what he thinks that some dea Al Qaida member would say for half of his post, and then seeming to lose it and go into full frothing overdrive in hate ridden posts attacking anyone who is either European or to the left of Jerry Fallwell in the US.

I understand your general distaste for the dead Al Queda references and the imitating thing is silly. However, I find all kinds of infammatory and offensive material here designed to provoke arguments in MacNN so I don't get that point. I would say out of the number of my posts, maybe two total were emotional, yet I get flamed left and right for simply having an opposing viewpoint. I've made very good points from time to time and I notice they get "clipped" and picked apart for spelling error or they are just ignored altogether. I'm not the only one I've seen this happen to. I'm probably (aside from you Theolein) among the top 10 most diplomatic posters in this forum, but I gotta tell ya; I've endured some abuse that was certainly not deserved. To be clear, that's okay with me, I wouldn't do any of this if it weren't at least a bit fruitful for me.

OreoCookie, please don't tell me to get my facts straight before formulating an opinion. My opinion is formulated primarily from what I know of American policy that may or may not have been related to the aforementioned. I admittedly was not going to join yet another mailing list simply to read one article. I'm glad to hear that smaller countries have a disproportionate degree of power. (though you clarified with; "to a large degree") which makes me suspect, but I'll let it go. Overall, the nature of your post did smell a smidgen elitist.

I see Ayatollah is at it again. I love you as I love all my brethren Ayatollah, but the only way to effectively establish your views in the hopes of opening the eyes of another is to get inside them. Your banter will likely land you on the outside. This can't be fun for you. This type of anger will make the ol' ticker stop tickin' prematurely.

[theolein]

Originally posted by ebuddy:
I find his nicks offensive and inflammatory, i.e. guaranteed to provoke arguments, and he has this strange habit of doing a half hearted attempt at imitating what he thinks that some dea Al Qaida member would say for half of his post, and then seeming to lose it and go into full frothing overdrive in hate ridden posts attacking anyone who is either European or to the left of Jerry Fallwell in the US.

I understand your general distaste for the dead Al Queda references and the imitating thing is silly. However, I find all kinds of infammatory and offensive material here designed to provoke arguments in MacNN so I don't get that point. I would say out of the number of my posts, maybe two total were emotional, yet I get flamed left and right for simply having an opposing viewpoint. I've made very good points from time to time and I notice they get "clipped" and picked apart for spelling error or they are just ignored altogether. I'm not the only one I've seen this happen to. I'm probably (aside from you Theolein) among the top 10 most diplomatic posters in this forum, but I gotta tell ya; I've endured some abuse that was certainly not deserved. To be clear, that's okay with me, I wouldn't do any of this if it weren't at least a bit fruitful for me.

OreoCookie, please don't tell me to get my facts straight before formulating an opinion. My opinion is formulated primarily from what I know of American policy that may or may not have been related to the aforementioned. I admittedly was not going to join yet another mailing list simply to read one article. I'm glad to hear that smaller countries have a disproportionate degree of power. (though you clarified with; "to a large degree") which makes me suspect, but I'll let it go. Overall, the nature of your post did smell a smidgen elitist.

I see Ayatollah is at it again. I love you as I love all my brethren Ayatollah, but the only way to effectively establish your views in the hopes of opening the eyes of another is to get inside them. Your banter will likely land you on the outside. This can't be fun for you. This type of anger will make the ol' ticker stop tickin' prematurely.

I'll be honest with you. I've never been the most diplomatic of people until recently I finally got plainly sick and tired of the perenial squabbling that goes on here, and decided to try and make a conscious effort to understand others' opinions and see things from their point of view in the hope of actually learning something.

It doesn't always work and sometimes I still get upset and lose my temper, but in general I feel less irritated with my new approach.

I agree that there are people here on both sides of the fence that will flame and attack anyone who is not considered to be in line with their particular ideology, and that really does go for both sides. I am irritated when I see people attacking someone like you who seems to be a decent kind of person, simply because you have different opinions to them.

In any case, since you seem to be willing to actually discuss your point of view without being absolutely dogmatic about it, you have my ear, whether or not I agree with your viewpoint, and I'm glad that you're here, in any case.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by ebuddy:
...

OreoCookie, please don't tell me to get my facts straight before formulating an opinion. My opinion is formulated primarily from what I know of American policy that may or may not have been related to the aforementioned. I admittedly was not going to join yet another mailing list simply to read one article. I'm glad to hear that smaller countries have a disproportionate degree of power. (though you clarified with; "to a large degree") which makes me suspect, but I'll let it go. Overall, the nature of your post did smell a smidgen elitist.

...

I wasn't referring to that particular article. You can't get a general impression of such a complicated matter by reading just one article.

To clarify "large degree": Take the extreme examples Luxembourg and Germany. The ration of their respective population is 1:200.

Currently, their seat-ratio in the European Parliament is 1:16.5 and in the Pseudo-second chamber it is even 1:5, in the EU Commission, it's even 1:2.

Among other countries, France and Germany want to make sure that there is a kind of ‘double majority', 60 % of the population as well as the majority in the respective chambers.

Now small countries want to keep their influence as large as possible (no big surprise here), thus the reaction of Poland. Take a look at history, too. Especially Poland's or GB's, it'll explain a lot in terms of their attitude.

[finboy]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
Small countries will still be (at least judging solely on their population) disproportionately overrepresented (to a large degree).

Kinda like the whole "supermajority" idea in the US Senate, huh?

A little (or stunted) but vocal group tries to change the rules to retain power instead of doing it through elections.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[austeros]

so much can be learned from history. many problems the europeans are facing harken back to teh states rights issues facing the constitutional convention. blown up a hundred fold ofcourse. these are proud nations with a proud heritage. the EU has brought them a long way. free trade stops war, and thats what europe needed most in the 20th century. But such fundamental radical change is hard without immenant problems (such as war) and not this war on terror crap (not minimizing the losses, but face it: its not ww3 yet).

the europeans have the right idea, just are rushing it. i wish we (the US) would start doing more of the same with canada, mexico and central america (INCLUDING CUBA). but alas, nationalism, militarism and isolationism still dominate american though.

time to bring the troops home george. not the ones in iraq or afganistan, but the ones in europe asia and all across the world where they arent actively engaged. not just for our sake, but to force the EU to start working togeather. would be a good day

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by austeros:
so much can be learned from history. many problems the europeans are facing harken back to teh states rights issues facing the constitutional convention. blown up a hundred fold ofcourse. these are proud nations with a proud heritage. the EU has brought them a long way. free trade stops war, and thats what europe needed most in the 20th century. But such fundamental radical change is hard without immenant problems (such as war) and not this war on terror crap (not minimizing the losses, but face it: its not ww3 yet).

the europeans have the right idea, just are rushing it. i wish we (the US) would start doing more of the same with canada, mexico and central america (INCLUDING CUBA). but alas, nationalism, militarism and isolationism still dominate american though.

time to bring the troops home george. not the ones in iraq or afganistan, but the ones in europe asia and all across the world where they arent actively engaged. not just for our sake, but to force the EU to start working togeather. would be a good day

Two types of problems make this particularly difficult:

1. The different political systems

Take a look at Britain, France, and Germany. The political systems are totally different and have different histories. Britain has been an independent country for ages, once the super power in the world. They have particular trouble accepting an interferring authority. GB also doesn't have a written constitution, so there is simply a different political tradition prevalent in Britain.

Then France, the EU as you know it is based on French interests, also for historical reasons. Until recently, French governments were afraid of a strong Germany.

Germany is a country that really embraces the European idea, because (my opinion), the European pride is a substitute for the lost tradition of national pride after WW2. Building new pride on accomplishments in the recent past is quite common.
Apart from that, Germany has a modern constitution that differs in many points from the ‘old' American model (besides the obvious difference presidential vs. parliamentary democracy). (Just to avoid offended hearts: with ‘old' I am just talking about the time the constitution was written; the American Constitution has served well as the basis for modern constitutions.) Countries with an ‘old' constitution favor their model, of course.


2. Practical Consequences

One example: fair elections. Right now we don't elect the EU parliament fairly. Why? Because in every country different rules apply such that one vote \neq one vote. Don't get me wrong, this has nothing to do with the (fair) voting system in each country, but rather the differences make it impossible to guarantuee fair voting on the EU level.


3. Political Unity?

So what about European parties? That's another big problem. German conservatives (under Helmut Kohl) were one of the driving forces for creating a strong EU (with one of its offsprings being the Euro) whereas in many countries, conservatives want a rather weak (‘non-intrusive') EU. When you vote conservative, you vote for both sides at once, diametrally opposing each other.

Similar arguments hold for the social democrats, the other political factions are closer together.


4. Conclusion

If you take a look at different kinds of democracies, there are different models, each one with flaws and benefits. They are just different ‘flavors' of democracy that are sometimes mutually exclusive (non-interference vs. strong EU). Which means that a compromise will not satisfy all 25 countries and sometimes will break with their political traditions.

[The Ayatollah]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
Which means that a compromise will not satisfy all 25 countries and sometimes will break with their political traditions.

Such is the price Europeans must pay for a way out of their continental backwardness and socialist-inspired Unholy Quagmire of Economic Stagnation and High Unemployment.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
Such is the price Europeans must pay for a way out of their continental backwardness and socialist-inspired Unholy Quagmire of Economic Stagnation and High Unemployment.

Well, we could always emigrate to the US, the land where milk and honey flow, ya know

[theolein]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
Such is the price Europeans must pay for a way out of their continental backwardness and socialist-inspired Unholy Quagmire of Economic Stagnation and High Unemployment.

Was that really necessary? Don't you think it would further your ideas more if you actually debated the thinking behind them for a change? It really does seem as if your only motivation in posting to this board at all is just to act as a channel for your hatred, you know?

[voodoo]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
Such is the price Europeans must pay for a way out of their continental backwardness and socialist-inspired Unholy Quagmire of Economic Stagnation and High Unemployment.

Are you some kind of a twisted right wing clown? I recon they'd laugh at your outbursts with a dry laughter in the Pentagon. Bun not even there would anyone laugh with you.

[theolein]

For the record: It officially failed today.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by theolein:
For the record: It officially failed today.

Yeah, looks like it was ultimately because Poland and Spain felt they would have lost out with the new voting system.
I think it was quite a legitimate concern. The new system would have meant votes were proportional to the countries population. Smaller countries are always wary of that.
I had hoped they would have come to a compromise though.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Yeah, looks like it was ultimately because Poland and Spain felt they would have lost out with the the new voting system.
I think it was quite a legitimate concern. The new system would have meant votes were proportional to the countries population. Smaller countries are always wary of that.
I had hoped they would have come to a compromise though.

Actually, it was the proposal to abandon an already agreed upon voting system that fumed Spain and Poland.

Deals like this will often fold once the ol' bait-and-switch is detected...

The deal-breaker was a proposal to abandon a voting system accepted in 2000 that gave Spain and incoming EU member Poland almost as much voting power as Germany, which has a population equal to those two countries combined.

"If you join us, Spain, you will have just as much power as the rest of us...just sign here...there is no need to read any of theat fine print" pleaded French President Jacques Chirac as he winked at Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
If you join us, Spain, you will have just as much power as the rest of us...just sign here...there is no need to read any of theat fine print" pleaded French President Jacques Chirac as he winked at Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder.

Heh. I guess you could spin it that way.

[The Ayatollah]

The fact remains that the implosion was caused by Old Europe's failure to move beyond its imperialism, selfishness, and corrupt system of subsidies and demented protectionism.

That continent will continue to wallow in its pig-dog slop until its leaders and its people decide that a real union of Europe is in their favour.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
The fact remains that the implosion was caused by Old Europe's failure to move beyond its imperialism, selfishness, and corrupt system of subsidies and demented protectionism.

Yeah, that's it.

[theolein]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
The fact remains that the implosion was caused by Old Europe's failure to move beyond its imperialism, selfishness, and corrupt system of subsidies and demented protectionism.

That continent will continue to wallow in its pig-dog slop until its leaders and its people decide that a real union of Europe is in their favour.

I must ask you again if your posting of such inflammatory is really necessary and if you think it actually convinces anyone of your arguments? Calling a the way an entire continent lives "pig-slop" only tells me that you have never been there and know next to nothing about apart from what you seem to conjure up in your fanatasies. I'm sorry about this, because I really would be interested in knowing, in detail, why you have so much hatred in yourself (family or personal problems? ) but I think I'm also going to complain to the mods about that post.

[NYCFarmboy]

When are lessor Euro states going to realize they should just accept French/German control?

Why on earth should people in Portugal or Poland or Sweden not think they should not be ruled by the French and the Germans?

There are more people there thus the popular vote should be the deciding factor.

Oh wait...silly me... popular vote...blah.... sorta like Gore in 2000, more popular votes, but the interests of smaller states were taken into account by the constitution, thus Bush was elected.

Hmmm.. maybe the Euros could learn from this.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by NYCFarmboy:
Hmmm.. maybe the Euros could learn from this.

I fully agree, though I suspect we'd draw very different lessons from that.

-s*

[The Ayatollah]

Originally posted by theolein:
but I think I'm also going to complain to the mods about that post.

You should complain about posts that attack, insult, or abuse members, not geography, systems of government, or a society in general. If that's the case, then I'd spend all day reporting the junk directed at America, its leaders, its policies, et cetera. Get my drift, folks. So save that 'report abuse' link for real stuff, not the impersonal criticism directed at inanimate objects.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
You should complain about posts that attack, insult, or abuse members, not geography, systems of government, or a society in general.

Americans are overweight, smelly pigs with a tendency towards violence and television, no understanding of politics and a hatred of all things European based on insecurity about their own lack of history and bitter envy of anything remotely possessing culture.

I'm not sure whether that applies to geography, society in general, or just you.

[glideslope]

Harlot,

Very mature response. The EU implosion is nothing that could not be seen 10 years ago. It reaffirms the the arrogance of France and Germany's inability to think for itself, or perhaps worry about what it may become?

Prior to making your comments about Americans being selfish pigs take a moment to look at it this way.

Perhaps the EU got a good look at itself in the mirror at this summit. France and Germany will be looked at very differently within the EU from this point on.

You could say the EU were the cast of characters in "Awakeing". France and Germany just passed out the Phenobarbitol.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by glideslope:
Harlot,

Very mature response.

[...]

Prior to making your comments about Americans being selfish pigs take a moment to look at it this way.

You missed the last line of my post, and the imbecilic one I was replying to.

Coffee helps.

-s*

[The Ayatollah]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Americans are overweight, smelly pigs with a tendency towards violence and television, no understanding of politics and a hatred of all things European based on insecurity about their own lack of history and bitter envy of anything remotely possessing culture.

I'm not sure whether that applies to geography, society in general, or just you.

Very good job dodging my razor-sharp gutting of your thin, sickly complaint and moaning.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
The fact remains that the implosion was caused by Old Europe's failure to move beyond its imperialism, selfishness, and corrupt system of subsidies and demented protectionism.

That continent will continue to wallow in its pig-dog slop until its leaders and its people decide that a real union of Europe is in their favour.

Good that you finally got it. So there's no need to talk to you anymore.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by glideslope:
Harlot,

Very mature response. The EU implosion is nothing that could not be seen 10 years ago. It reaffirms the the arrogance of France and Germany's inability to think for itself, or perhaps worry about what it may become?

Prior to making your comments about Americans being selfish pigs take a moment to look at it this way.

Perhaps the EU got a good look at itself in the mirror at this summit. France and Germany will be looked at very differently within the EU from this point on.

You could say the EU were the cast of characters in "Awakeing". France and Germany just passed out the Phenobarbitol.

The EU didn't implode.

The result will either be a Europe of different speeds (in terms of integration) or a core Europe that will sooner or later drag the other countries along.

This was indeed the most likely scenario.