[undotwa]

is...

[The Ayatollah]

The Union of European Socialist Republics.

[Millennium]

You forgot "Every country."

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
The Union of European Socialist Republics.

The Warsaw Pact?

[chalk_outline]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
The Union of European Socialist Republics.

Could you please define "European Socialist Republics"

I understand it for the most part. I just want to know your definition of Socialist. Also curious how you can lump all of Europe into the same ball.

[MacGorilla]

Russia

[avalon hill]

The 2003 Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index

According to the annual survey by the Berlin-based organization Transparency International, the world's least corrupt country is Finland and its most corrupt is Bangladesh. The index defines corruption as the abuse of public office for private gain, and measures the degree to which corruption is perceived to exist among a country's public officials and politicians.

So ... do any of our Bangladeshi posters disagree? Post now or forever hold your peace.

[Logic]

MWUAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Iceland number two according to that link above!!

So if there are any Suomi people out there, speak up or I'll claim the victory for the least corrupt nation in the world!



(scary to see that Iceland is that high up after some recent events, makes you wonder how corrupt other nations really are )

[chris v]

Central Africa's a damn mess.

CV

[Logic]

Also interesting to see how well the Scandinavian nations(I include Iceland and Finland in Scandinavia) compared to the rest of the world. The "socialist" governments seem to have the least corruption

[lil'babykitten]

asses Logic flame suit....and some Mecca Cola:

[The Ayatollah]

Originally posted by Logic:
Also interesting to see how well the Scandinavian nations(I include Iceland and Finland in Scandinavia) compared to the rest of the world. The "socialist" governments seem to have the least corruption

Your infidel, backwater countries are microscopic in population, moderately well-educated, and largely homogenous, which explains their success in implementing working socialism, even at the expense of your own freedom from government oppression (by way of robbing you of your incomes).

No surprises here for the educated among us.

[Logic]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
Your infidel, backwater countries are microscopic in population, moderately well-educated, and largely homogenous, which explains their success in implementing working socialism, even at the expense of your own freedom from government oppression (by way of robbing you of your incomes).

No surprises here for the educated among us.

Hook, line and sinker

If you want a better answer, try to come up with a better response than the last

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
No surprises here for the educated among us.

You certainly got THAT part right!

-s*

[theolein]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
Your infidel, backwater countries are microscopic in population, moderately well-educated, and largely homogenous, which explains their success in implementing working socialism, even at the expense of your own freedom from government oppression (by way of robbing you of your incomes).

No surprises here for the educated among us.

Mmmm, wonder what the boy's problem is, reading ability, too much television, lack of social skills, too many video games, disconnection from reality, loneliness?

Let's see.
Europeans are all socialist: France has at present a conservative government, as does Italy, Spain, Holland and Denmark. Germany has just passed into law a major economic reform package making jobless benefits more restrivtive, bringing in tax cuts and easing the restrictions on laying off of employees.

Europeans are homogenous: The EU alone is made up of 15 nations with 11 official languages. As of next year that will be 25 nations with 21 official languages. France alone, has a minority of 10% of its population that is muslim (which is a source of some problems in France, as we all know.), and has no less than 5 territories and departments which have a majority non European population.

Europeans are robbed of their incomes (presumably by way of taxes): Well, in Switzerland where I live, which although it is not part of the EU, has a lower tax rate than the US. Germany and France have higher ones, and Germany has started lowering taxes, as has France.

Wouldn't it be wiser to have a go at China for a change, or perhaps Madagascar?

::Grabs the bait, deftly seperates it from the hook and swims away::

[theolein]

All countries suffer from corruption, IMO. I just think that the price you have to pay to get your way is higher the more afffluent a country is. That means that you can corrupt a politician in the US just as you can one in France, China or Bangladesh, just that you have to pay more in France and the US than in China or Bangladesh...

But China is working on the, ahem, pay rates of officials as its economy grows.

[Timo]

Finland. Cleary Finland. Scoundrels, the lot of 'em.

[The Ayatollah]

Originally posted by theolein:
Mmmm, wonder what the boy's problem is, reading ability, too much television, lack of social skills, too many video games, disconnection from reality, loneliness?

Let's see.
Europeans are all socialist: France has at present a conservative government, as does Italy, Spain, Holland and Denmark. Germany has just passed into law a major economic reform package making jobless benefits more restrivtive, bringing in tax cuts and easing the restrictions on laying off of employees.

Europeans are homogenous: The EU alone is made up of 15 nations with 11 official languages. As of next year that will be 25 nations with 21 official languages. France alone, has a minority of 10% of its population that is muslim (which is a source of some problems in France, as we all know.), and has no less than 5 territories and departments which have a majority non European population.

Europeans are robbed of their incomes (presumably by way of taxes): Well, in Switzerland where I live, which although it is not part of the EU, has a lower tax rate than the US. Germany and France have higher ones, and Germany has started lowering taxes, as has France.

Wouldn't it be wiser to have a go at China for a change, or perhaps Madagascar?

::Grabs the bait, deftly seperates it from the hook and swims away::

I was referring to the Scandinavian nations, not those that you mentioned. I am well aware of Germany's reforms, and they are welcomed and long-overdue. At last the brain-dead apostates running that country are culturing some number of semi-functional neurons. Germans should rejoice in their upcoming increased freedom from economic tyranny.

yes, taxes in the US are obscene. The proletariat are crushed under a myriad of tiered and punitive taxes. It seems working-class citizens of The Great Satan have something in common with their oppressed breathren in Western Europe.

[MacGorilla]

Finland is the most corrupt? I knew they were shifty. I would have thought Iceland

[quandarry]

any country which ends in stan...i never liked that name.

[macvillage.net]

The only difference between Europe and America is Europe has a higher Quality of Life accross the board.

Otherwise, all are just as corrupt.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
The only difference between Europe and America is Europe has a higher Quality of Life accross the board.

[qualifier]... if you rely on the gov't to supply you that life.[/qualifier]

[effgee]

[qualifier]... if you rely on the gov't to supply you that life.[/qualifier]

speaking from personal experience?

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by effgee:
speaking from personal experience?

I've never taken a gov't handout (or unemployment), and don't ever plan/want to.

[ambush]

Haiti seems to be corrupted to the bone.

The US of A probably are even more, but hey, they know how to cover the ****.

Chili Coup,
JFK,
MLK,
Lennon.

[MacGorilla]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
[qualifier]... if you rely on the gov't to supply you that life.[/qualifier]

I live in the US where the economy stinks, the rich get richer and Wal Mart is out to destroy the middle class. I'll take a government supplied life any time!

[tae667]

Social democracy("socialism")=good. Free education(including books and food), free healthcare, great social security system, just to mention few.

And we beat US in economical competition. The only bad thing I can think of is high prices for cars, but who needs cars when we have great public transportation system?

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Heh.

Why is it socialists always sound like spoiled brats who think everything is an entitlement and toss the word 'free' around with a complete disconnect from reality? It reminds me of the **geniuses** that have ‘figured out’ if they just pay the $15 minimum on their through-the-roof Master Card, they can live the jet-set lifestyle and get whatever they want for… $15 a month!! Wheeee!! Nope! No stormy weather ahead on that three-hour tour! No sir!

If the shameless entitlement attitude is really so rampant in Europe- I feel sorry for the bleak train wreck of a future Europe must be speeding towards.

What happens when a few hundred million naïve kids who never learned that JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE ELSE IS WORKING TO PAY FOR SOMETHING doesn’t mean it’s ‘free’- all at once suddenly come crashing headlong with the flipside of that reality?

It could be a second ‘big bang’! Maybe it’ll create an alternate anti-socialist universe?

[MacGorilla]

It could be a second ‘big bang’! Maybe it’ll create an alternate anti-socialist universe?

You mean another United States headed by Republicans?

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
Heh.

Why is it socialists always sound like spoiled brats who think everything is an entitlement and toss the word 'free' around with a complete disconnect from reality? It reminds me of the **geniuses** that have ‘figured out’ if they just pay the $15 minimum on their through-the-roof Master Card, they can live the jet-set lifestyle and get whatever they want for… $15 a month!! Wheeee!! Nope! No stormy weather ahead on that three-hour tour! No sir!

If the shameless entitlement attitude is really so rampant in Europe- I feel sorry for the bleak train wreck of a future Europe must be speeding towards.

What happens when a few hundred million naïve kids who never learned that JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE ELSE IS WORKING TO PAY FOR SOMETHING doesn’t mean it’s ‘free’- all at once suddenly come crashing headlong with the flipside of that reality?

It could be a second ‘big bang’! Maybe it’ll create an alternate anti-socialist universe?

Very well said.

OMG! Just wait until they find out that someone has been working to provide them all these things... and now those someones have either died, went broke, or gave up?

[Sven G]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Very well said.

OMG! Just wait until they find out that someone has been working to provide them all these things... and now those someones have either died, went broke, or gave up?

Ehm... isn't work something that should be deeply shared, with the perspective of a common good...?

If one doesn't enjoy one's work (see the compensative "spoiled brats" nonsense, etc.), maybe it's time to question it, and find out the reasons of why work isn't often a fulfilling thing in today's too competitive context.

BTW, that's exactly what libertarian socialists (and, in a much more "politically correct" and "statist" manner, the social democrats, mainly in the Scandinavian countries, maybe...) are trying to do: in a few words, make work a pleasurable and really useful thing - and not the ridiculously farcical context into which work is often "normalized" today, where many people don't even know (and "feel") what they are doing, and - above all - why they are doing it...

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Sven G:
Ehm... isn't work something that should be deeply shared, with the perspective of a common good...?

If one doesn't enjoy one's work (see the compensative "spoiled brats" nonsense, etc.), maybe it's time to question it, and find out the reasons of why work isn't often a fulfilling thing in today's too competitive context.

BTW, that's exactly what libertarian socialists (and, in a much more "politically correct" and "statist" manner, the social democrats, mainly in the Scandinavian countries, maybe...) are trying to do: in a few words, make work a pleasurable and really useful thing - and not the ridiculously farcical context into which work is often "normalized" today, where many people don't even know (and "feel") what they are doing, and - above all - why they are doing it...

Then tell me why you feel the gov't should be providing that for you? or why some people feel they're entitled to things that they don't work for?

I work hard (I love my work and I'm a work-a-holic), have the things I need and the things I want. There's no gov't official giving me things etc.. and you know, if I had more $ I could do more for my neighbors and fellow citizens who are hungry or have other needs... however, my high tax rate seems to get in the way of that. Paying >40% of my wages in taxes is a bit of a drag. If it gets worse, I'll have to cut back on charitible giving even more, and that truly sucks.

[Sven G]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Then tell me why you feel the gov't should be providing that for you? or why some people feel they're entitled to things that they don't work for? [...]

Have I ever said that The Government™ shoud provide all those things? No, really.

But the problem is that people don't seem to be mature enough to govern themselves (self-management); so, if you don't want taxes, etc. (BTW, AFAIK, my uncle in Sweden had an 80% taxation!!!), the problem is: how can we envisage a society that doesn't need all this $$$ B$? Tough question, indeed - and a little difficult to solve, if people value "personal money" and "individual work" much more than free collaboration.

I know that it may sound utopian - but it would be really simple to organize a well-functioning society (with free individuals) without the "I work for my living and fsck everything else" ideology...

[The Ayatollah]

Originally posted by Sven G:
Have I ever said that The Government™ shoud provide all those things? No, really.

But the problem is that people don't seem to be mature enough to govern themselves (self-management); so, if you don't want taxes, etc. (BTW, AFAIK, my uncle in Sweden had an 80% taxation!!!), the problem is: how can we envisage a society that doesn't need all this $$$ B$? Tough question, indeed - and a little difficult to solve, if people value "personal money" and "individual work" much more than free collaboration.

I know that it may sound utopian - but it would be really simple to organize a well-functioning society (with free individuals) without the "I work for my living and fsck everything else" ideology...

that's all very nice, but there are plenty of people who are lazy dirtbags that will leech off society and others' goodwill until the end of time. With government entitlements, you only encourage that disgusting behaviour.