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Y3a · Dec 22, 2003, 03:38 PM

You'd think that those ever so smart athiests would have it in themselves to be more mature and less offended by symbols of Christmas.

I do NOT think that the majority of people should have to abide by the selfish requests of those who are a tiny minority.

For the holiday season, I have started loudly confronting those who are athiests. Seems only fair!

BRussell · Dec 22, 2003, 03:49 PM

Yeah 'cause how can Christians enjoy Christmas without the government promoting it for them.

Millennium · Dec 22, 2003, 03:56 PM

Might I ask what exactly brought this on?

theolein · Dec 22, 2003, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by Millennium:
Might I ask what exactly brought this on?

A stint of being thoroughly bashed in the creationist thread in the lounge, perhaps?

adamk · Dec 22, 2003, 04:13 PM

Originally posted by Y3a:
For the holiday season, I have started loudly confronting those who are athiests. Seems only fair!

the reason for the season is jesus.

turn the other cheek...

love thy enemy...

oh yeah, and my signature...

happy birthday, jesus!

Wiskedjak · Dec 22, 2003, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by theolein:
A stint of being thoroughly bashed in the creationist thread in the lounge, perhaps?

What does creationism have to do with XMas?

itai195 · Dec 22, 2003, 04:25 PM

Sorry to hear about your Christmas being ruined, maybe a national holiday and extended vacation will make you feel better.

theolein · Dec 22, 2003, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
What does creationism have to do with XMas?

I dunno. Probably about as much as anything ever has to do with anything else in this place.

Spheric Harlot · Dec 22, 2003, 04:33 PM

God forbid somebody be Jewish or Muslim - or worse yet, Hinduist or Buddhist! Shinto...?

Godless atheist terrorists, I tell you!

Code Orange at Christmas!

Bah!

Humbug!

etc.

-s*

Stradlater · Dec 22, 2003, 05:33 PM

Yeah, really, what brought this on? Most atheists I know AREN'T offended by any religious symbols, and especially aren't offended by a holiday that's almost become secular (Santa Claus and his reindeer, rudolph, none of them are exactly biblical stories).

thunderous_funker · Dec 22, 2003, 06:09 PM

Maybe its time for Pagans to finally demand once and for all that Christians give them back their holidays and stop stealing them and passing them off as their own.

Jesus wasn't born in winter. As with most "christian" holidays, the Catholic church simply appropriated an existing pagan holiday and invented some meaning for it to help them convert the heathens or at least stamp out the pagan practices.

OldManMac · Dec 22, 2003, 06:58 PM

Nobody can ruin Christmas for you except yourself. I don't care what others believe, so they can shout it from the highest rooftop, and it won't ruin my belief in anything. I'm in control of my feelings; you should try it.

The Mick · Dec 22, 2003, 07:05 PM

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
Maybe its time for Pagans to finally demand once and for all that Christians give them back their holidays and stop stealing them and passing them off as their own.

Jesus wasn't born in winter. As with most "christian" holidays, the Catholic church simply appropriated an existing pagan holiday and invented some meaning for it to help them convert the heathens or at least stamp out the pagan practices.

I love you.

itai195 · Dec 22, 2003, 07:40 PM

PAGAN POWER!

Here's a picture of me, or wait is this the wrong thread?..

OreoCookie · Dec 22, 2003, 08:03 PM

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
God forbid somebody be Jewish or Muslim - or worse yet, Hinduist or Buddhist! Shinto...?

Godless atheist terrorists, I tell you!

Code Orange at Christmas!

Bah!

Humbug!

etc.

-s*

Like here in Japan!
It was a complaint by muslims that didn't allow us to use the old Xmas decoration. We all made a bit fun of it during the preparation (only westerners and Japanese), and it was a great party in the end.

zigzag · Dec 22, 2003, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by Y3a:
For the holiday season, I have started loudly confronting those who are athiests. Seems only fair!

I can't think of a better way to celebrate the holiday season. Go get 'em Y3a!

CRASH HARDDRIVE · Dec 22, 2003, 08:12 PM

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
Maybe its time for Pagans to finally demand once and for all that Christians give them back their holidays and stop stealing them and passing them off as their own.

Y3a · Dec 23, 2003, 06:41 AM

A Maryland county decided that Santa Claus is a RELIGIOUS symbol??

Of course the black radio and TV stations are wishing you a "Happy Quanzaa", a fictional african celebration set up as a protest of "White's Christmas".

Winter Pagents, Winter Holidays, and all the leftist BS used to remove any Christian religous symbols, has got to stop. The 'reasons' given for these bannings is as stupid as it gets.

It's time to become intolerent of those who are intolerent...or something.

Stories are all over the newspapers of towns reacting to the possibility of being sued by some "ass canyon" because they put up a Christmas tree or something.

The creation 'science' folks are not credible, and their arguements are full of faults, and changes in verbage.

The best way to argue is to show that IF the universe HAD TO HAVE BEEN CREATED, why doesn't God also NEED TO HAVE A BEGINNING??.. Who taught God how to do the stuff as claimed? was God before he made the Universe? Those questions are not to be asked if you're a CS. They say the uiverse was created with the 'appearence of age'.

An alternate arguement is t start with 2 + 2 = 4. then expand the math until it's physics. The Physics DID work well enough to launch rockets and explore other planets.

I've never seen a CS understand astronomy.

Spheric Harlot · Dec 23, 2003, 07:14 AM

Originally posted by Y3a:
The creation 'science' folks are not credible, and their arguements are full of faults, and changes in verbage.

The best way to argue is to show that IF the universe HAD TO HAVE BEEN CREATED, why doesn't God also NEED TO HAVE A BEGINNING??.. Who taught God how to do the stuff as claimed? was God before he made the Universe? Those questions are not to be asked if you're a CS. They say the uiverse was created with the 'appearence of age'.

An alternate arguement is t start with 2 + 2 = 4. then expand the math until it's physics. The Physics DID work well enough to launch rockets and explore other planets.

I've never seen a CS understand astronomy.

Wrong thread. You want the *other* Lounge.

-s*

eklipse · Dec 23, 2003, 07:31 AM

Just curious, has France banned, or are they planning to ban, Christmas celebrations in public schools?

ThinkInsane · Dec 23, 2003, 09:04 AM

Here's a kind of strange situation in my town, having to do with this topic. Every year, for as long as I've lived here, there has been a nativity scene and a giant manorah set up in the plaza next to city hall during the holidays. Appearently this year, there was some complaining done about the sepertation of church and state, so the city fathers decided taht instead of offending the non-religious, they would just set up the manorah. Strangely, that seemed to placate everyone. I think that's hilarious.

Lerkfish · Dec 23, 2003, 09:21 AM

Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
Here's a kind of strange situation in my town, having to do with this topic. Every year, for as long as I've lived here, there has been a nativity scene and a giant manorah set up in the plaza next to city hall during the holidays. Appearently this year, there was some complaining done about the sepertation of church and state, so the city fathers decided taht instead of offending the non-religious, they would just set up the manorah. Strangely, that seemed to placate everyone. I think that's hilarious.

wow. that's bizarre.

That's like every christmas the art dept does a banner across the top of the paper. We've always made it all inclusive by using the words "happy holidays". Apparently, a huge number of christians complained so now its going to say "merry christmas".

*scratches head* not sure why "happy holidays " was offensive to anyone.

chris v · Dec 23, 2003, 09:24 AM

Happy Festivuus!

CV

ThinkInsane · Dec 23, 2003, 09:33 AM

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
wow. that's bizarre.

That's like every christmas the art dept does a banner across the top of the paper. We've always made it all inclusive by using the words "happy holidays". Apparently, a huge number of christians complained so now its going to say "merry christmas".

*scratches head* not sure why "happy holidays " was offensive to anyone.

It is peculiar, especially taking into account that this is about the most Catholic city in the state, and we have maybe a half a dozen Jews living here. Last week, I was downtown doing some Christmas shopping, and saw a friend of mine's grandfather, a nice old Jewish fellow, looking at he menorah. When I walked up to chat, he looked at me, smiled, and said "I think they might have missed the point". Summed it up nicely.

benb · Dec 23, 2003, 09:37 AM

Conan told me that Jesus was the fastest and the Kwanzaa symbol was the coolest. Oh, and the menorah was first on the show.

Millennium · Dec 23, 2003, 10:00 AM

I will say, I've noticed that when it comes to protesting religious-themes holiday displays, it seems that there are really only two groups who complain in significant numbers (at least in the US): militant pseudo-Christians and militant atheists. Pretty much everyone else seems to have some modicum of respect for symbols of beliefs other than their own, and an idea that simply because someone else displays a symbol for some other belief in no way compromises your right to display your own. These two, however, seem to be different.

That's what I find so amusing about militant atheists: they're not nearly as different from the militant pseudo-Christians as they wish they were. How soon, it seems, we forget the mistakes of those we tried so hard to escape.

Lerkfish · Dec 23, 2003, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by Millennium:
I will say, I've noticed that when it comes to protesting religious-themes holiday displays, it seems that there are really only two groups who complain in significant numbers (at least in the US): militant pseudo-Christians and militant atheists. Pretty much everyone else seems to have some modicum of respect for symbols of beliefs other than their own, and an idea that simply because someone else displays a symbol for some other belief in no way compromises your right to display your own. These two, however, seem to be different.

That's what I find so amusing about militant atheists: they're not nearly as different from the militant pseudo-Christians as they wish they were. How soon, it seems, we forget the mistakes of those we tried so hard to escape.

hm. Interesting post. I guess I'd have to say that I can understand the POV of the moderate atheists, in that its easier to respect no religion at all than to attempt to respect all of them equally. Their intent on the face of it is good: that no one religion should be promoted over any other or none.
And, I think most moderate christians would agree with that to the extent that it is feasible all religions should be respected.
Where it becomes tougher is when militant atheists favor total noninclusion and militant christians favor singular inclusion only.

MacGorilla · Dec 23, 2003, 10:25 AM

Public expression of religious holiday matters is fine. On your own property. When you start putting up these symbolds on public property, you run into trouble.

Interestly, in 1980's the Supreme Court ruled you can put XMas Tress and Menorahs on Public property as long as you make them inclusive to everyone, such as putting up a banner that says "Happy Holidays".

Stratus Fear · Dec 23, 2003, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
Maybe its time for Pagans to finally demand once and for all that Christians give them back their holidays and stop stealing them and passing them off as their own.

Jesus wasn't born in winter. As with most "christian" holidays, the Catholic church simply appropriated an existing pagan holiday and invented some meaning for it to help them convert the heathens or at least stamp out the pagan practices.

Christianity = Microsoft?

SimeyTheLimey · Dec 23, 2003, 11:04 AM

Originally posted by MacGorilla:
Interestly, in 1980's the Supreme Court ruled you can put XMas Tress and Menorahs on Public property as long as you make them inclusive to everyone, such as putting up a banner that says "Happy Holidays".

Or as my Con Law professor put it: so long as you include a plastic reindeer.

Ah, Justice O'Connor, is there any issue you can't find a way to split down the middle?

Wiskedjak · Dec 23, 2003, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by MacGorilla:
Interestly, in 1980's the Supreme Court ruled you can put XMas Tress and Menorahs on Public property as long as you make them inclusive to everyone, such as putting up a banner that says "Happy Holidays".

The Christmas Tree isn't a Christian symbol.

BRussell · Dec 23, 2003, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by Millennium:
I will say, I've noticed that when it comes to protesting religious-themes holiday displays, it seems that there are really only two groups who complain in significant numbers (at least in the US): militant pseudo-Christians and militant atheists. Pretty much everyone else seems to have some modicum of respect for symbols of beliefs other than their own, and an idea that simply because someone else displays a symbol for some other belief in no way compromises your right to display your own. These two, however, seem to be different.

That's what I find so amusing about militant atheists: they're not nearly as different from the militant pseudo-Christians as they wish they were. How soon, it seems, we forget the mistakes of those we tried so hard to escape.

Again though, let's just be clear that we're talking about government displays, not people displaying things on their own property or their own churches or, well anywhere else but government property. The "militant atheists" don't want the government to promote religion. I think that often gets lost, because you have people like O'Reilly constantly saying the "secularists want to stamp out religion from our daily lives" etc., but they don't mention the teensy eensy little fact that it's only about government-sponsored displays.

SimeyTheLimey · Dec 23, 2003, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
The Christmas Tree isn't a Christian symbol.

Reread that sentence. The Christmas tree isn't a Christian symbol.

It may have been adapted from pagan rituals, but it most definately is a Christian symbol, just as December 25th is a Christian holiday that also has pagan origins.

MacGorilla · Dec 23, 2003, 11:21 AM

"secularists want to stamp out religion from our daily lives" etc., but they don't mention the teensy eensy little fact that it's only about government-sponsored displays.

Exactly! Thats the point. I have no problem with people expressing their beliefs but I do have a problem with government sponsored displays or the perception of government sponsorship.

itai195 · Dec 23, 2003, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by MacGorilla:
Exactly! Thats the point. I have no problem with people expressing their beliefs but I do have a problem with government sponsored displays or the perception of government sponsorship.

People have problems with religious displays on pulic property, but nobody seems to complain that Christmas is a federal holiday. I guess time off work conquers all

Millennium · Dec 23, 2003, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by BRussell:
The "militant atheists" don't want the government to promote religion.

No, that's what moderate atheists want. The militant atheists, it seems, want the government to promote atheism and actively discourage any religion.

This is, again, why I say that a secular state should simply take the agnostic stance; take no position whatsoever on religion. Anyone who wants to erect a display is free to do so, as long as they do not disrupt any other displays which are already there (or which may be put up in the future).

I think that often gets lost, because you have people like O'Reilly constantly saying the "secularists want to stamp out religion from our daily lives" etc., but they don't mention the teensy eensy little fact that it's only about government-sponsored displays.

The question becomes, what is "government-sponsored" and what is not? For a hypothetical example, if a couple of kids decide to put up a menorah on the front lawn of their school, how does this equate to government sponsorship of Judaism?

Spheric Harlot · Dec 23, 2003, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
The Christmas Tree isn't a Christian symbol.

Well, then, neither is the cross (been around as a symbol of punishment for longer than Christianity).

MacGorilla · Dec 23, 2003, 12:08 PM

he question becomes, what is "government-sponsored" and what is not? For a hypothetical example, if a couple of kids decide to put up a menorah on the front lawn of their school, how does this equate to government sponsorship of Judaism?

Well, the school probably wouldn't let them but lets say they did then you have the PERCEPTION of government sponsorship, which should be avoided.

Now if the school in question is a private school, knock yourself out. I don't care.

Wiskedjak · Dec 23, 2003, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Reread that sentence. The Christmas tree isn't a Christian symbol.

It may have been adapted from pagan rituals, but it most definately is a Christian symbol, just as December 25th is a Christian holiday that also has pagan origins.

Just because some Christians stamped their name onto the Paradise Tree doesn't mean it's a Christian symbol. Just as the Christmas tree and December 25 lost their original Pagan representations, so to is Christmas losing it's Christian representations. I suspect within 10-20 years we won't even be using the word "Christmas" to refer to our winter celebration. Already, the much worshiped religion of Materialism is removing the word "Christmas" from it's doctrine.

itai195 · Dec 23, 2003, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Just because some Christians stamped their name onto the Paradise Tree doesn't mean it's a Christian symbol. Just as the Christmas tree and December 25 lost their original Pagan representations, so to is Christmas losing it's Christian representations. I suspect within 10-20 years we won't even be using the word "Christmas" to refer to our winter celebration. Already, the much worshiped religion of Materialism is removing the word "Christmas" from it's doctrine.

Cool, merry xmas to you.

So who has authority in determining what is and isn't a Christian symbol? The Easter Bunny? The guy in the funny hat? Jesus?

SimeyTheLimey · Dec 23, 2003, 12:32 PM

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
the Paradise Tree

The what tree? Never heard of it.

Wiskedjak · Dec 23, 2003, 12:55 PM

Originally posted by itai195:
Cool, merry xmas to you.

So who has authority in determining what is and isn't a Christian symbol? The Easter Bunny? The guy in the funny hat? Jesus?

Happy Holidays.

I'm not saying anything is wrong with the Christian celebration of the Winter Holiday, just that many other people and groups of people celebrate different things at this time and use the same symbols and that the meaning of "Christmas" is slowing changing as our society becomes increasingly secular.

The Christmas tree is particularily interesting as it has very little to do with Biblical Christianity and nothing to do with the birth of Christ (there being few pine trees in Nazarea).

Please don't think I'm trying to spoil your celebrations by saying that there are meanings for Christmas other than the Christian meaning.

Wiskedjak · Dec 23, 2003, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
The what tree? Never heard of it.

Educate yourself:

The Origin and Meaning of the Christmas Tree

SimeyTheLimey · Dec 23, 2003, 01:07 PM

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Educate yourself:

The Origin and Meaning of the Christmas Tree

That's sort of the point isn't it? The Christmas tree is a symbol, commonly understood as being part of a religious holiday celebrated by one particular religion. Like any symbol, it doesn't matter one whit what the origins of the symbol might be, what matters is what it is understood to mean today.

In this case, the Christmas tree is certainly a Christian symbol.

itai195 · Dec 23, 2003, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Please don't think I'm trying to spoil your celebrations by saying that there are meanings for Christmas other than the Christian meaning.

Don't worry about me, I don't celebrate Christmas.

But I don't understand why it matters whether the Christmas tree is an offical Christian symbol or not. Either way, it's basically been absorbed into the tradition of the holiday, along with Christmas carols (advertising jingles), rudolph (an advertising campaign), and other symbols. Given the fact that Christians stole the holiday in the first place, I don't think the zealots who dislike the new symbols have much grounds to argue.

Similarly I'm not sure there's anything in particular that makes the star of David the official symbol of Judaism or that directly associates dreidels with Hanukkah, but they've taken on their symbolic roles as well.

BRussell · Dec 23, 2003, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by Millennium:
No, that's what moderate atheists want. The militant atheists, it seems, want the government to promote atheism and actively discourage any religion.

Can you give an example of where someone wanted to promote atheism? By putting up atheist symbols or something? (I have a feeling you're simply going to equate the non-promotion of religion with the active promotion of atheism, like O'Reilly and Sekulow et al., but I'd like to hear an example that proves me wrong...)

The question becomes, what is "government-sponsored" and what is not? For a hypothetical example, if a couple of kids decide to put up a menorah on the front lawn of their school, how does this equate to government sponsorship of Judaism?

Assuming we're talking about a public school, that's clearly government sponsorship of Judaism. Kids can't do things in their schools without permission - they need approval of the school. If a kid put up some pornography on school grounds, do you think the school would simply leave it there and say "we didn't put it up, one of our students did, so we're not sponsoring that pornography."

thunderous_funker · Dec 23, 2003, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Educate yourself:

The Origin and Meaning of the Christmas Tree

Um. Your link argues that it is a Christian symbol taken from Mystery plays to symbolize the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil in the Garden of Eden.

Wiskedjak · Dec 23, 2003, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
That's sort of the point isn't it? The Christmas tree is a symbol, commonly understood as being part of a religious holiday celebrated by one particular religion. Like any symbol, it doesn't matter one whit what the origins of the symbol might be, what matters is what it is understood to mean today.

In this case, the Christmas tree is certainly a Christian symbol.

I think what it is symbolic of depends upon who whose house the tree is in. The Christmas tree in my house is not a Christian symbol and is topped with a Faerie rather than an Angel.

As to what the symbol means today, my point is that I think that meaning is slowly changing and that I welcome that change.

BRussell · Dec 23, 2003, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
That's sort of the point isn't it? The Christmas tree is a symbol, commonly understood as being part of a religious holiday celebrated by one particular religion. Like any symbol, it doesn't matter one whit what the origins of the symbol might be, what matters is what it is understood to mean today.

In this case, the Christmas tree is certainly a Christian symbol.

Hmm, I understand what he's saying though. Christmas is partially a religious holiday and partially a secular holiday. (I heard someone refer to Christmas as the "Birth of Santa."

). The Christmas tree belongs to the secular part of the holiday; the nativity scene is part of the religious symbology. I mean, is Rudolf the red-nosed reindeer a religious figure?

[edit: Just read that link, and it looks to me like they don't really know where the Christmas tree came from, but some theories are that it might have religious origins.]

Lerkfish · Dec 23, 2003, 01:32 PM

been wanting to post this, but I'm unsure how to encapsulate it properly, but here goes:

The sermon this sunday was a very good one, touching on this topic, and I felt the minister's take and solution was the best I'd ever heard.

The service started with a movie clip of "jingle all the way" where schwarzenegger and Sinbad are fighting over numbered balls to get a "turboman" action figure that is hard to get. Quite a hilarious scene of people practically gouging each others eyes out to get that toy.

by the pulpit were a christmas tree, holly, candy canes, etc.

The gist of the sermon (and my abbreviation will not do it justice) was that it was easy to feel, as a christian, that the trappings of christmas have taken away the meaning of christmas.
But his point was, only if you allow it to. Symbols are only symbols, after all, and if you choose to think of the "x" in xmas as a symbol of the cross, or of its historical roots where early christians marked x's on doorways where secret meetings would be held to keep from being arrested and executed. His suggestion was to take ownership of symbols of this world in your own heart to continue that meaning in a christian way, NOT to try to change the world around you, but to take things as they are but assign your own personal meaning to it.

He talked about how Martin Luther was supposedly the first to put candles on christmas trees, how christmas trees were originally a scandavian non-christian symbol of perserverence of life, but how that has meaning for christians....

The point is that symbols are only shorhand for meaning, and there's no reason why christians and non-christians can't share the exact same symbols, but have it mean different things to them. The only blame for losing the meaning of christmas lay at the feet of christians that allow themselves to lose it.

at any rate, it was a very provacative sermon, and set me to thinking in many ways.

Perhaps, as a culture, we have become too rigid in regarding symbols of any kind so that we permit them to transmit to us messages we don't want to hear.

anyways...just something to throw in the mix, here.