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The Mick · Jan 7, 2004, 11:55 PM

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3887721/
Personally, I think this idea sucks. Why would we reward potentially 14 million illegal immigrants who have broken our laws by granting them carte-blanche legal status here? This new proposal will do nothing to strengthen our borders and curb the influx of illegal immigrants to the USA, and will add more complexity and cost to the already overburdened INS.

His proposal sounds like simple pandering to get more of the Hispanic vote, when they currently represent less than 10% of the voting population. I watched the O'Reilly Factor and Hardball tonight and I didn't hear any significant positive comments said about this proposal from anyone, not Democrats, not Republicans, and not Hispanic groups either. What the hell is he thinking?

Millennium · Jan 8, 2004, 05:04 AM

He's thinking, in all likelihood, about tax revenue. If these immigrants suddenly get legal status, they'll be "entitled" to more services, but many will also have to start paying taxes.

I'm not entirely certain this is a move made solely to garner the Hispanic vote. If it is, then it's a bad one, because even if the illegals are granted legal status, it is extremely unlikely that he would grant them citizenship (they'll probably have to go through the naturalization process like all other immigrants), and without that they can't vote in the next election anyway. This means that he could have to garner the Hispanic vote from current citizens, and he already does well enough among them that I don't see him getting too much more from this.

This will actually cost him some votes from some sectors which many politicians don't want to be associated with anyway. Even among those former illegals who don't have to start paying taxes on account of being below the poverty level, their income will still have to be reported to the IRS. Therefore, the scumbags who had been paying less than minimum wage to illegal immigrants because they didn't have to report the income will have to give their employees one heck of a pay raise. These employers will not be amused by this bill, and they're often stereotyped as Bush supporters. How much of that stereotype is accurate, I don't claim to know, but either way he loses votes with that sector.

So he stands to gain a small number of votes, and lose a small number of votes; it's a wash, more or less. That's why I say this is more likely about trying to garner tax revenue without actually raising taxes. I will say, if it's true then it's an uncharacteristically brilliant move on the man's part; all the added revenue of a tax increase without any of the political fallout that comes from raising taxes.

davesimondotcom · Jan 8, 2004, 09:16 AM

Straight up, it is pandering and it's silly.

Even the language used was silly: undocumented immigrants. Please. Call it what it is. Illegal.

If someone can prove they can get a job in the U.S., it's really not that hard for them to get into this country, from what I have heard.

I don't think we should reward people with this "amnesty" because they have broken a law by working illegally.

I would like to see the process made easier for someone to get into this country if they want to and are willing to work. Just keep the criminals out. Everyone else should be welcome.

I think beyond just pandering, it is also a way to document those who are already here, which contributes a minor portion in tax collection and potential security. But anyone who will fail a background check or whatever won't accept the amnesty anyway.

kindbud · 09:35 AM

Yeah, I'm starting to lean towards Gephardt lately.

As far as I know, wages get taxed regardless of whether the employee has a green card or not.

As far as Dubya claiming there are jobs that Americans won't do - that's because those jobs don't pay a fair wage. If there were no illegal aliens to pick fruit for $5 a day - the growers would HAVE TO pay a fair wage to Americans. If picking fruit is worth no less than $18.50/hr - then so be it.

Hell, I want a live-in housekeeper. I'm willing to pay $8 a day. Buncha dumbass Americans WON'T do the job for me. It ain't MY fault.

My father tried to hire some local teenagers to help him with his tobacco crop. He was willing to pay $10/hr. He was shocked and dismayed to discover that nobody was interested. He bitched about 'spoiled kids' and whatnot. I told him straight-up that it wasn't worth $10/hr - based on the fact that I'd done the job before.

He eventually hired a group of (illegal?) Mexican workers who were more than happy to do the job for $10/hr. In my opinion he was wrong to do that...if they were illegals (no doubt they were).

Things cost what they cost. Artificially raising or lowering the price of things goes against everything that is fair, balanced, and proper. You want American labor? You hafta pay for it.

Lerkfish · Jan 8, 2004, 09:27 AM

FWIW, having lived in California, I think it could be simply that rich influential voters want to keep having them clean their mansions.

kindbud · Jan 8, 2004, 09:38 AM

MADE IN AMERICA*

*using Mexican & Cuban labor

lil'babykitten · Jan 8, 2004, 09:38 AM

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
FWIW, having lived in California, I think it could be simply that rich influential voters want to keep having them clean their mansions.

Nah, I don't buy it. There's plenty of normal Americans that seem willing to scrub Dubya's toilet.

davesimondotcom · Jan 8, 2004, 09:51 AM

Originally posted by kindbud:
If there were no illegal aliens to pick fruit for $5 a day - the growers would HAVE TO pay a fair wage to Americans. If picking fruit is worth no less than $18.50/hr - then so be it

Well, at that rate, Macs wouldn't be the only apples that would be expensive.

nonhuman · Jan 8, 2004, 09:54 AM

Personally, I think we should have open borders and let anyone who wants to to immigrate (except, perhaps, sex offenders and murderers). I don't see why anyone who wants it shouldn't be allowed to be a US citizen, even if they don't live in the US.

davesimondotcom · Jan 8, 2004, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by nonhuman:
Personally, I think we should have open borders and let anyone who wants to to immigrate (except, perhaps, sex offenders and murderers). I don't see why anyone who wants it shouldn't be allowed to be a US citizen, even if they don't live in the US.

Just sex offenders and murderers? What about other criminals? What about those who don't intend to get jobs and would just sponge off the government (we have plenty of those born here!)

As long as they can pass a physical (which my family had to do when they came over), prove that they have a job lined up, and pass a background check, I say, welcome.

We don't mind the tired, poor, huddled masses. It's the lazy, sick, criminal asses we don't want.

quandarry · Jan 8, 2004, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by davesimondotcom:
Just sex offenders and murderers? What about other criminals? What about those who don't intend to get jobs and would just sponge off the government (we have plenty of those born here!)

As long as they can pass a physical (which my family had to do when they came over), prove that they have a job lined up, and pass a background check, I say, welcome.

We don't mind the tired, poor, huddled masses. It's the lazy, sick, criminal asses we don't want.

i got busted for a splif once...does that count as being a degenerate no-account?

davesimondotcom · Jan 8, 2004, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by quandarry:
i got busted for a splif once...does that count as being a degenerate no-account?

There are obviously common sense limits - we're talking about violent criminals and those who are wanted by their own governments (unless they are applying for amnesty because they are wanted for political reasons), etc.