[perryp]

Despite being only 2-3% of the US population, Jews contribute 50% of Democratic presidential campaign money and about a third of Republican. Surely only an anti-semite would find any connection to this and the reluctance of the US Congress to criticize Israel?

Parents of activist killed by bulldozer criticize Israeli investigation

The parents of an American activist crushed to death by an Israeli army bulldozer in a Palestinian refugee camp criticized the Israeli government for not releasing the investigation report and renewed calls for an independent examination of their daughters death.

Rachel Corrie, 23, of Olympia, Wash., was killed March 16 while trying to prevent the bulldozer from razing the home of a Palestinian pharmacist in Rafah, along the border with Egypt. An Israeli army investigation concluded Corries death was accidental, with officials saying the driver of the machine could not see the woman.

But Corries parents, Craig and Cindy Corrie, say Israeli officials are stonewalling efforts to release the report to U.S. representatives.

What we want is what Prime Minister (Ariel) Sharon promised President Bush, an open and transparent investigation into Rachels death. We havent gotten that, said Craig Corrie.

If (the bulldozer driver and the commander) are innocent, then theres no reason not to release the report and theres no reason not to welcome an independent investigation, he said shortly before a Michigan fund-raiser for the International Solidarity Movement, the pro-Palestinian activist group for which Rachel Corrie worked when she died.

Israeli officials view ISM activists as meddlers whose actions range from negligence to outright abetting of terrorism.

A message seeking comment was left with the Israeli Consulate in Chicago on Friday.

Cindy Corrie said according to eyewitnesses to the incident, her daughter was atop a mound of rubble and was clearly visible to the driver.

She stood her place and stared him in the eye. She thought he would stop, like theyd done in the past, she said. But he didnt stop.

Joining the Corries at the fund-raiser was Brian Avery, a 26-year-old ISM activist from Chapel Hill, N.C. who was shot in the face by machine-gun fire in the West Bank town of Jenin shortly after Corrie was killed. Another ISM volunteer from Britain was also shot last April while helping school children to safety and died earlier this month.

Along with helping raise funds for the ISM -- whose members often place themselves between Israeli forces and Palestinians -- the Corries are hoping to muster more support for the Rachel Corrie Resolution. The resolution, introduced in the House last March, calls for an investigation by the U.S. government into her death.

In the past 10 months, only 51 legislators have signed it. For the Corries, it has been hard to understand why so few have thrown their support behind the resolution.

What Rachel was doing was trying to call attention to the suffering of the ordinary Palestinian people. These were not the houses of terrorists that were razed, Cindy Corrie said.

Its hard to explain why there isnt more support for it except that theres a reluctance on the part of Congressmen to challenge Israel, she said.

The Corries, who live in Charlotte, N.C., spent about three weeks in the Palestinian territories in September, mainly to gain a better understanding of the situation there and to come to terms with their daughters death.

Cindy Corrie said the time she spent in the West Bank and Gaza drove home the cause for which her daughter died.

I know the Israelis need their security, but so too do the Palestinians, she said. This occupation, and all the death that has come from it, on both sides, hasnt brought anyone closer to peace.

[Zimphire]

Surely only an anti-semite would find any connection to this and the reluctance of the US Congress to criticize Israel?

Yes actually.

[Millennium]

I do not see a connection between Presidential campaign funds and Congressional actions. If you'd spoken of Congressional campaign funding, things might be different.

However, I'll admit that Congressional campaign funding is probably pretty similar to this, and there might be a connection as far as that goes.

Or, on the other hand, there might not. Do you really believe that all Jews support Israel and its actions? There are more Jews in the US than in the entire state of Israel; surely if all -or even a majority- of US Jews supported Israel, there would at least be more in Israel than the US, even if large numbers chose to remain here.

[The Ayatollah]

blah blah blah. You already gave us your stupid 'Jews Rule the World' thread not long ago. We don't need to hear any more of your pathetic blathering.

[perryp]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
blah blah blah.

Note the refusal to deal with the issue

[ghost_flash]

anti-semitic? sematic? semite-automatic?

Who cares if they rule the world?
Shalom.

[The Ayatollah]

Originally posted by perryp:
Note the refusal to deal with the issue

You took that as a refusal to deal with the issue? I'm dealing with it by ignoring your pathetic, ignorance-driven conspiracy theories and Jews-Rule-the-World crap. I could queéf better threads.

[perryp]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
You took that as a refusal to deal with the issue? I'm dealing with it by ignoring your pathetic, ignorance-driven conspiracy theories and Jews-Rule-the-World crap. I could quef better threads.

What "ignorance-driven conspiracy theories" and "Jews-Rule-the-World crap" would that be? Ignoring isn't dealing with it.

[kindbud]

"deal with" what?

I'm not sure it's even a problem if Jews run the world.

People are people, homie. Even the Jews.

What you see as a problem - I see as a curiousity, at best.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by perryp:
What "ignorance-driven conspiracy theories" and "Jews-Rule-the-World crap" would that be? Ignoring isn't dealing with it.

Is it really something which needs to be dealt with?

I repeat again: if they got this "power" by honest means, and use it responsibly and justly, then what is the harm? How has it hurt you, if in fact it's as true as you claim it is? There are pockets of corruption -including the current leadership of Israel itself- but that can be dealt with.

That said, I think you are in fact spouting ignorance-driven conspiracy theories. I note that you have yet to deal with some of the issues I've brought up, in this thread and others.

I am not Jewish. I deplore the fact that many Jews take any criticism as anti-Semitism; I think that this is rarely true. But frankly I wonder if you actually are a case of mild -perhaps even subconscious- anti-Semitism yourself.

[perryp]

Originally posted by Millennium:
I note that you have yet to deal with some of the issues I've brought up, in this thread and others.

You haven't brought up any issues - just vague insinuations.

Originally posted by Millennium:
I wonder if you actually are a case of mild -perhaps even subconscious- anti-Semitism yourself.

And there's another one!

[Millennium]

Originally posted by perryp:
You haven't brought up any issues - just vague insinuations.

My issues have been anything but vague, and they weren't subtle enough to be called insinutations.

I bring up facts, in light of which a Jewish conspiracy does not make sense. I note areas where Jews tend to dominate, examine how that power was gained and how it is used, and where both of these factors are benign I question the harm of that demographic. Where power has been abused, I acknowledge that abuse and vocally oppose it. And you ignore all of this. Not just from me, either; you ignore it from everyone here.

And there's another one!

That was no insinuation. I apologize if the wording behind my accusation was unclear. Would you like me to spell it out for you? Very well, then.

You're obviously not a nutcase. Despite your obsession with some sort of Jewish conspiracy, you appear to be quite lucid, and you show plenty of signs of rationality on many issues. You ignore the facts when those facts would disprove your theories, but other than this you're probably at least as sane as I am.

But there is the issue of these Judaism threads. You continue forging ahead with this insistence on some kind of evil Jewish conspiracy, ignoring any facts others might present which might even potentially counter your claims. Anyone who disagrees with you is anti-Semitic, as "evidenced" by snippets you quote from the text, except that there are almost inevitably glaring omissions in your quotes, because if you included the whole thing it would say something very different.

My verdict: you are anti-Semitic, but some part of you realizes just how twisted this is and so you are trying desperately to convince yourself that you are not. You do this by coming onto Internet message boards, baiting people into talking about conspiracies, then mangling everything they say (and I am far from the only victim of this, or else I might be re-evaluating my own beliefs). You project anti-Semitism on anyone who disagrees with you, using means as intellectually dishonest if need be. In this way, you can assure yourself that you're not anti-Semitic; Those People Over At MacNN are, but you aren't.

But frankly, there's hope for you yet, because you still realize how twisted anti-Semitism is. That's why you try so hard to convince yourself that you aren't anti-Semitic; it would mean that something is wrong with your beliefs. But your attempts obviously aren't working, because you keep baiting people here and at God only knows how many other places.

[perryp]

Originally posted by Millennium:
You continue forging ahead with this insistence on some kind of evil Jewish conspiracy,

Where have I done this?

Originally posted by Millennium:
You project anti-Semitism on anyone who disagrees with you,

Where have I done this?

Originally posted by Millennium:
That's why you try so hard to convince yourself that you aren't anti-Semitic

I don't need to convince myself.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by perryp:
Where have I done this?

In reference to the "conspiracy" posts, every post you've made in which you note that "Jews make up only 2% of the US population", and then go off on some statistic about disproportionate campaign contributions or college admissions or something similar. See your own thread "Affirmative Action for Gentiles" for an example of you in top form.

Where have I done this?

In reference to your projecting anti-Semitism onto others, I can name four people off the top of my head: myself, vmarks, The Ayatollah, and Zimphire. In fact, once again I think you can see examples of all four of these in the "Affirmative Action for Gentiles" thread.

I don't need to convince myself.

Your actions speak otherwise.

[perryp]

Originally posted by Millennium:
In reference to the "conspiracy" posts, every post you've made in which you note that "Jews make up only 2% of the US population", and then go off on some statistic about disproportionate campaign contributions or college admissions or something similar.

Are these statistic accurate? Do I provide sources? Is truth itself now anti-semitic? Where do I state there is an "evil jewish conspiracy"?

Originally posted by Millennium:
[BIn reference to your projecting anti-Semitism onto others, I can name four people off the top of my head: myself, vmarks, The Ayatollah, and Zimphire. [/B]

Please provide linked sources where I've "projected anti-Semitism onto others".

[Zimphire]

perry are you really this self deluded?

[perryp]

Can't answer? No balls?

Originally posted by Millennium:
In reference to the "conspiracy" posts, every post you've made in which you note that "Jews make up only 2% of the US population", and then go off on some statistic about disproportionate campaign contributions or college admissions or something similar.

Are these statistic accurate? Do I provide sources? Is truth itself now anti-semitic? Where do I state there is an "evil jewish conspiracy"?

[Zimphire]

[perryp]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

no responses, just personal attacks. why isn't zimphire banned?

[Zimphire]

Naw just posting what I and many others in here have observed.

It's actually quite funny.

[Logic]

Originally posted by perryp:
no responses, just personal attacks. why isn't zimphire banned?

I have absolutely no idea. But the best way to handle him and preventing him from destroying all threads with endless short nonsense posts is to ignore him. I recommend you give it a try.

[perryp]

Originally posted by Logic:
I have absolutely no idea. But the best way to handle him and preventing him from destroying all threads with endless short nonsense posts is to ignore him. I recommend you give it a try.

NO, I don't think that's the best way. He makes constant personal attacks and should be banned.

[Logic]

Originally posted by perryp:
NO, I don't think that's the best way. He makes constant personal attacks and should be banned.

I agree, but the mods don't. We have already tried that several times but he always seems to be able to continue. That is the reason I recommended ignoring him.

[perryp]

Originally posted by Logic:
I agree, but the mods don't. We have already tried that several times but he always seems to be able to continue. That is the reason I recommended ignoring him.

The moderator Millennium has indicated that someone has bee posting images with "Eye am a big fag0rt" in it. As far as I can see, only a moderator would have access to my password, so it seems that not only do the moderators support Zimphire's brand of personal attack, but they actively engage in their own.

[Logic]

Originally posted by perryp:
The moderator Millennium has indicated that someone has bee posting images with "Eye am a big fag0rt" in it. As far as I can see, only a moderator would have access to my password, so it seems that not only do the moderators support Zimphire's brand of personal attack, but they actively engage in their own.

I highly doubt that.

[perryp]

Originally posted by Logic:
I highly doubt that.

It seems I was wrong and Zimphire was solely responsible. If he's not banned for that then the moderators obviously have some sympathy with his type of personal attack

[Logic]

Originally posted by perryp:
It seems I was wrong and Zimphire was solely responsible. If he's not banned for that then the moderators obviously have some sympathy with his type of personal attack

Did you get a pm about it?

If it was Zimph, then they must ban him. Let's hope it was him

[vmarks]

Try and keep up--

When you post an image that resides on someone else's server, it's their image, and they can alter it at any time.

Sometimes people change the image so that you can't steal their copyright. Sometimes they do this so you will refrain from using their bandwidth without asking them.

Perryp linked to an image that resided on a server other than his own. The owner of that server altered the image to let perryp know that using the image without permission wasn't appreciated (putting it kindly)

Let's see: so far, you've blamed me, Millennium, Demonhood, ThinkInsane, and Zimphire for this.

Why do you do this when the whole thing is completely preventable by using your own server space?

[perryp]

Originally posted by vmarks:
When you post an image that resides on someone else's server, it's their image, and they can alter it at any time.

And if they've altered the image to say you're a 'big faggot' then that goes beyond acceptable limits.

Originally posted by vmarks:
Let's see: so far, you've blamed me, Millennium, Demonhood, ThinkInsane, and Zimphire for this.

And all because Zimphire hasn't accepted responsibility - he has allowed everyone else to be blamed. Another reason for him to be banned.

[perryp]

Originally posted by Logic:
If it was Zimph, then they must ban him.

I agree. There's really no other option. As you've said, other people have tried before to get him banned. How many 'final chances' has he had?

[itai195]

Originally posted by Logic:
Did you get a pm about it?

If it was Zimph, then they must ban him. Let's hope it was him

So zimph should be banned for calling perryp a name, while perryp gets a free pass after calling for discrimination against Jews in college admission. Interesting position.

[Logic]

Originally posted by itai195:
So zimph should be banned for calling perryp a name, while perryp gets a free pass after calling for discrimination against Jews in college admission. Interesting position.

Should we also ban everyone that has said anything "bad" about muslims? Europeans? Americans?

When the **** did starting a debate and asking critical questions about jews become a no-no???? Why the **** can't we discuss this without labeling everyone as anti-semitist??? Why the **** can't you(everyone) just point out any factual errors and share your opinon?


****!

[itai195]

Originally posted by Logic:
Should we also ban everyone that has said anything "bad" about muslims? Europeans? Americans?

When the **** did starting a debate and asking critical questions about jews become a no-no???? Why the **** can't we discuss this without labeling everyone as anti-semitist??? Why the **** can't you(everyone) just point out any factual errors and share your opinon?


****!

Actually, I don't think we should ban anyone.

I didn't set out to label anyone an anti-Semite -- I think openly professing a discriminatory policy pretty much speaks for itself. What concerns me is that others don't see that...

Factual errors have nothing to do with this! You know as well as I that anyone making an argument can conveniently choose any set of facts and statistics that they want to use. That doesn't make their argument true or acceptable.

Disco Stu: [making indescribable body motions] Did you know that disco record sales were up 400/ for the year ending 1976? If these trends continue... A-y-y-y!

[Logic]

Originally posted by itai195:
Actually, I don't think we should ban anyone.

I didn't set out to label anyone an anti-Semite -- I think openly professing a discriminatory policy pretty much speaks for itself. What concerns me is that others don't see that...

You don't have to agree with what he said, most threads here end in a debate because people don't agree with the original post. But, personal attacks, endless useless trolling, and pointless posts should not be welcome here and Zimphire should be banned.

[Joshua]

Originally posted by Logic:
Should we also ban everyone that has said anything "bad" about muslims? Europeans? Americans?

When the **** did starting a debate and asking critical questions about jews become a no-no???? Why the **** can't we discuss this without labeling everyone as anti-semitist??? Why the **** can't you(everyone) just point out any factual errors and share your opinon?


****!

Lots of people ask critical questions about Jews and/or Israel and aren't called anti-Semites. I think 'perryp' has gone a little bit beyond asking critical questions.

Here are some of his threads from the past month or so:


Israel's compensation check to murdered Briton's family bounces
Amusing political argument
Israel-first neocons go nuts
Former chairman of the joint chiefs of staff speaks out about USS Liberty cover-up
Israeli ambassador in Sweden goesn uts and attacks artwork
Affirmative Action for gentiles
ADL use lying and deceit to see film they accuse of being lying and deceitful
Hollywood producer involved in smuggling nuclear weapon components to Israel
Sharon bugs Norwegian ambassador
WMDs in Middle East - whistleblower gagged
Jewish activists recieve hate mail
Are you an anti-semite?
Israeli soccer fans show their true colors
Pogroms in Palestine
Congress relunctant to criticize Israel

edit: formatting

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by perryp:
And if they've altered the image to say you're a 'big faggot' then that goes beyond acceptable limits.

Actually it says fag0rt. And it was a joke.

That'll learn ya for linking images from my server.

And all because Zimphire hasn't accepted responsibility - he has allowed everyone else to be blamed. Another reason for him to be banned.

LOL! I went out for awhile. Came back and see you blaming everyone like it's a big conspiracy against you. I think we all understand where you get your deluded opinions.

BTW It doesn't take a genius to figure out what happened.

[itai195]

Originally posted by Logic:
You don't have to agree with what he said, most threads here end in a debate because people don't agree with the original post. But, personal attacks, endless useless trolling, and pointless posts should not be welcome here and Zimphire should be banned.

That's ridiculous. You don't have to agree with Zimphire's personal attack, either.

Like I said, I'd rather not see either one banned. All I'd like to see is perryp's opinions re: Jews discredited to the point that he no longer has the desire to inundate us with his threads.

I'm sorry, but I think I reserve the right to label someone if I so choose. I happen to invoke that right very infrequently. At some point we have to move beyond PC bs and call someone out after they've demonstrated a particular pattern of behavior.

[lil'babykitten]

The only thing perryp is 'guilty' of is posting multiple threads that are all about Israel/Jews.
I'm pretty sure that's the real reason why he's getting slack. People think it's suspicious or something. Some threads have questionable facts? heh there aren't many threads in this lounge that have passed without someone questioning the content or source etc etc.

We could just refute the 'facts' and have a debate or, we could carry on insulting each other and posting stupid images.

The debate over banning Zimphire never has and never will go anywhere, so ignore him.

[Logic]

Originally posted by Joshua:
Lots of people ask critical questions about Jews and/or Israel and aren't called anti-Semites. I think 'perryp' has gone a little bit beyond asking critical questions.

Here are some of his threads from the past month or so:


Israel's compensation check to murdered Briton's family bounces
Amusing political argument
Israel-first neocons go nuts
Former chairman of the joint chiefs of staff speaks out about USS Liberty cover-up
Israeli ambassador in Sweden goesn uts and attacks artwork
Affirmative Action for gentiles
ADL use lying and deceit to see film they accuse of being lying and deceitful
Hollywood producer involved in smuggling nuclear weapon components to Israel
Sharon bugs Norwegian ambassador
WMDs in Middle East - whistleblower gagged
Jewish activists recieve hate mail
Are you an anti-semite?
Israeli soccer fans show their true colors
Pogroms in Palestine
Congress relunctant to criticize Israel

edit: formatting

So what? He starts many threads about Israel, big deal! No one told me about the quota for threads about Israel, if someone could tell me how many one can post a month I would be thanksful. And if there are any other quotas for posting I would love to hear about them.

Is anyone of those threads hateful or spreading hateful messages? If so, please point out the posts that did.

[Zimphire]

What facts would those be lilbaby?

[itai195]

nm, server ate my post

[Logic]

Originally posted by itai195:
That's ridiculous. You don't have to agree with Zimphire's personal attack, either.

Like I said, I'd rather not see either one banned. All I'd like to see is perryp's opinions re: Jews discredited to the point that he no longer has the desire to inundate us with his threads.

I'm sorry, but I think I reserve the right to label someone if I so choose. I happen to invoke that right very infrequently. At some point we have to move beyond PC bs and call someone out after they've demonstrated a particular pattern of behavior.

Personal attacks are forbidden on these forums and should according to the rules lead to banination. I don't have to agree with them either.

And to the "particular pattern of behaviour"; would you think it would be fair if I called you anti-palestinian and anti-muslim? Just because you defend Israel on almost all occasions?

And I see that Demonhood found that image to be too much and removed it. It will be interesting to see if it will be enough to lead to Zimphires banination. If not we all know where the limit is. Meaning posting personal attacks like that will be acceptable, or at least the worst thing the mods can do is to remove it......

[itai195]

Originally posted by Logic:
Is anyone of those threads hateful or spreading hateful messages? If so, please point out the posts that did.

Didn't I just point out that he is spreading a hateful message re: calling for discrimination against Jews in college admission?

This is pointless. Until people stop obfuscating the relationship between facts and arguments, there's no point in debating the issue. I really couldn't give a rat's behind whether or not his facts are true, it's his argument that I find hateful.

[itai195]

Originally posted by Logic:
And to the "particular pattern of behaviour"; would you think it would be fair if I called you anti-palestinian and anti-muslim? Just because you defend Israel on almost all occasions?

You can do what you like, however I shouldn't have to point out the difference between defending Israel and being anti-Muslim. I think I've also demonstrated that I'm perfectly willing to be critical of Israel when Israeli actions deserve it -- as I was regarding the Swedish ambassador, for example.

The difference here is that perryp is not just critical of Israel, he is suspicious of all Jews and calls for discriminatory policies against Jews. If I took those positions regarding Muslims, you'd be perfectly correct to call me a racist.

Don't take this the wrong way -- but just as the anti-Israel crowd claims Israelis are quick to silence them with anti-Semitism labels, the anti-Israel crowd is quick to equate zionism with racism. I saw this practice often enough when I was in college to know that it's prevalent.

[Logic]

Originally posted by itai195:
Didn't I just point out that he is spreading a hateful message re: calling for discrimination against Jews in college admission?

This is pointless. Until people stop obfuscating the relationship between facts and arguments, there's no point in debating the issue. I really couldn't give a rat's behind whether or not his facts are true, it's his argument that I find hateful.

Did he call for discrimination or did he ask if that should be done? There are other quotas and affirmative actions taken that are discriminatory towards other "races". How come it is wrong to ask for the same regarding all "races"?

But I won't go into that debate again, if you think he(perryp) is spreading hateful messages, report him. Unfortunately Zimphire made sure we couldn't report him.

[Wiskedjak]

What does it take for someone to be Anti-Semitic? Can I criticize Israel without being Anti-Semitic?

[Logic]

Originally posted by itai195:
You can do what you like, however I shouldn't have to point out the difference between defending Israel and being anti-Muslim. I think I've also demonstrated that I'm perfectly willing to be critical of Israel when Israeli actions deserve it -- as I was regarding the Swedish ambassador, for example.

The difference here is that perryp is not just critical of Israel, he is suspicious of all Jews and calls for discriminatory policies against Jews. If I took those positions regarding Muslims, you'd be perfectly correct to call me a racist.

Yes, perhaps perryp starts a few too much threads about Israel and Jews. But I haven't seen anything from him that would make it possible to label him an anti-semite. Obsessed with Jews perhaps, but not an anti-semite.

And I know you aren't anti-muslim, and I'm sorry if I might sound aggressive. I just have had it with Zimphire. It is fun and enlightening talking to many on the "other side", but Zimph is just annoying and simply here to be a troll. And yes, that was a personal attack. Report me........

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Logic:
Unfortunately Zimphire made sure we couldn't report him.

How did I do that?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
What does it take for someone to be Anti-Semitic?

The people defending him have similar ideals.

Don't fret.

[itai195]

Originally posted by Logic:
Did he call for discrimination or did he ask if that should be done? There are other quotas and affirmative actions taken that are discriminatory towards other "races". How come it is wrong to ask for the same regarding all "races"?

I don't want to get into the debate again either, but I will summarize it by saying that affirmative action is a policy meant to grant access to those who have been victims of institutionalized racism. There is no quota mandate. The only precedent for a policy that denies access to institutions would be the racist Jim Crow laws.

But I won't go into that debate again, if you think he(perryp) is spreading hateful messages, report him. Unfortunately Zimphire made sure we couldn't report him.

Like I said, I don't need him banned, just discredited.