[perryp]

At least in Israel they actually have WMDs. Time to invade.

Israel eager to gag nuclear whistleblower

Israel is worried that a nuclear whistleblower winding up an 18-year prison sentence has more secrets to tell, and it may make his freedom conditional on his silence, security sources said.

They said Mordechai Vanunu, who went public in 1986 with details of his work at Israel's main atomic reactor, could be barred from leaving the country when he is released on April 21, under emergency laws reserved for cases of national security.

"Vanunu dealt an enormous blow to the country and we believe he has more in store," an Israeli security source said. "There is no double-jeopardy proviso when it comes to treason."

The Jewish state is still angry over an interview that Vanunu, now 49, gave Britain's Sunday Times in October 1986 on the Dimona reactor where he had worked as a technician for eight years.

He was to receive an undisclosed fee but was abducted by the Israeli secret service organisation Mossad before payment could be made, the paper said.

Vanunu's revelations, and 60 accompanying photographs, led independent experts to conclude that Israel has between 100 and 200 nuclear warheads - an embarrassment given Israel's policy of ambiguity regarding its non-conventional capabilities.

Absent from the expose were the names of Vanunu's former colleagues at Dimona. Security sources say these are among sensitive data he could still publish overseas after his release. In Israel, any public statement Vanunu makes would be subject to military censors.

Vanunu's lawyer was not available for comment.

Vanunu, who dabbled in pro-Palestinian politics and became a Christian after quitting Dimona in 1985, apparently feels no remorse. The website of the US Campaign to Free Mordechai Vanunu quotes him as saying: "The secrets collapsed without any bombs, without killing anyone. That was the great power of a non-violent act."


Newsweek, in a report to be published this week, says Vanunu last year refused to sign a non-disclosure pledge offered by an Israeli official in exchange for early release.

[The Ayatollah]

Israel needs nuclear weapons to guarantee its existence--to protect itself and deter aggression from the fanatical, rabid Arab and Muslim regimes of that region who demonstrate their lack of civility, education, and development on a daily basis.

[MacGorilla]

Anyone got a link to the original interview?

[vmarks]

First of all, someone makes the leap from power plant (not acknowledged) to weapons (likewise not acknowledged.) -- That alone is a huge leap to make.

Second of all, violating sworn secrecy is a violation of law. Britain has such a law, America has such a law- most modern countries do.

Third of all, the law-breaker chose not to accept an offer for early release.

Fourth, the law-breaker's personal politics are aligned with those who see themselves as Israel's enemy- He shouldn't be trusted in a position of security, or be trusted as a source for information on security.

[lil'babykitten]

Do you think Israel has WMD, vmarks?

[perryp]

irst of all, someone makes the leap from power plant (not acknowledged) to weapons (likewise not acknowledged.) -- That alone is a huge leap to make.

He thinks Israel doesn't have nuclear weapons!

[MacGorilla]

of course Israel has a nuke program. I don't think this in doubt.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
Israel needs nuclear weapons to guarantee its existence--to protect itself and deter aggression from the fanatical, rabid Arab and Muslim regimes of that region who demonstrate their lack of civility, education, and development on a daily basis.

I thought that's what Israel has the US nuclear weapons arsenal for ...

[vmarks]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Do you think Israel has WMD, vmarks?

I will answer in this way:

Israel has a Nuclear Research Center in Dimona. Israel got nuclear knowledge from France in the 50s, after Mossad provided information to France which prevented the assasination of Charles DuGaulle.

Disseminating rumors and spreading deliberate disinformation are familiar aspects of Israel's nuclear policy- in 1969, Israeli agents in the US openly inquired whether or not the f-4 jets they were purchasing could be outfitted with bomb racks suitable for nuclear weapons- they knew the request would be denied, and also knew it would be leaked to the US press. Israel did the same thing two years ago with German submarines, and it took a few weeks for the LA Times (who broke the story) to debunk it- which didn't prevent it from popping back up a year later when Der Spiegel decided to reprint it.

The point of these exercises isn't anything other than keeping the rest of the world on it's toes. It seems impossible that Vanunu could take a camera in and out of a top-secret establishment repeatedly without being detected. Isn't it possible that Israel deliberately planted his story, in the hopes of chilling Syrian adventurism- remember, Syria had just acquired the highly accurate Soviet SS-21 missile, and was contemplating using them with chemical weapons.

Shimon Peres, best known in his peacenik role along side Rabin, was deputy defence minister in the 50s and 60s and played a central role in setting up the Nuclear Research center, and testified in Vanunu's trial. At the time of trial, he was Israel's Prime Minister. What was Vanunu's defense? That he had a moral duty to reveal Israel's nuclear weapons policy (a line that failed at trial) and that Israel had no jurisdiction (also failed.) That was March 1988.

[perryp]

The point of these exercises isn't anything other than keeping the rest of the world on it's toes

He thinks Israel doesn't have nuclear weapons!!!

Israel's nuclear program:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/wld/graphi..._israel_dw.htm

[vmarks]

Originally posted by perryp:
He thinks Israel doesn't have nuclear weapons!!!

Israel's nuclear program:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/wld/graphi..._israel_dw.htm

How do you know that you aren't buying into information Mossad has planted in foreign media? Fed to reporters and / or US intelligence?

[eklipse]

Originally posted by vmarks:
How do you know that you aren't buying into information Mossad has planted in foreign media? Fed to reporters and / or US intelligence?

The terms 'Iraq', 'WMD', 'Bush administration' and 'public manipulation' come to mind.

[perryp]

Originally posted by vmarks:
How do you know that you aren't buying into information Mossad has planted in foreign media? Fed to reporters and / or US intelligence?

[dialo]

Originally posted by vmarks:
How do you know that you aren't buying into information Mossad has planted in foreign media? Fed to reporters and / or US intelligence?

It's good that you recognize this possibility (and hopefully start recognizing it in other areas), but my understanding is that Israel was less than forthright about the true natue of the Dimona reactor.

The United States first became aware of Dimona's existence after U-2 overflights in 1958 captured the facility's construction, but it was not identified as a nuclear site until two years later. The complex was variously explained as a textile plant, an agricultural station, and a metallurgical research facility, until David Ben-Gurion stated in December 1960 that Dimona complex was a nuclear research center built for "peaceful purposes."

There followed two decades in which the United States, through a combination of benign neglect, erroneous analysis, and successful Israeli deception, failed to discern first the details of Israel's nuclear program. As early as 8 December 1960, the CIA issued a report outlining Dimona's implications for nuclear proliferation, and the CIA station in Tel Aviv had determined by the mid-1960s that the Israeli nuclear weapons program was an established and irreversible fact.

http://fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/index.html

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by vmarks:
The point of these exercises isn't anything other than keeping the rest of the world on it's toes.

Why is it ok for one fanatical nation to posses, or bluff about possesing, WMD and evil for another fanatical nation to do so? I don't believe Israel is responsible enough to posses WMD and, with Iraq as precedent, want it to be invaded so we can make sure that is does not.

I also want the Palestinians to be granted their "God given rights" and given a voice in their government, whether that be a Palestinian state separate from Israel or to have a vote in the Israeli elections. Anything else is as bad or worse than dictatorship.

[vmarks]

Do such weapons exist? Despite what Dialo and perryp will tell you, the truth is that they and no one else really know.

Has Israel ever used them? No- if they had, that would be pretty good evidence of existence. - And, since they haven't used anything like that, it proves that they're responsible.

Arafat's method of action has been to walk in to a country, and start acting like a government in exile, refusing any authority from the government of the country he and the PLO were in. He did this in Jordan, and King Hussein kicked him out. He did this in Lebanon. He does it everywhere he goes- in fact, in the end, he ended up in the West Bank, which Israel won from Jordan in the 1967 war- and when Israel offered the West Bank to Jordan-- Jordan didn't want it, because it meant taking Arafat and all his troublemakers.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_196...nce_claims.php

[perryp]

few international experts question the Jewish state's presence on the world's list of nuclear powers (BBC)

[MacGorilla]

I think the preponderance of evidence points to Israel having nuclear weapons.

[dialo]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Do such weapons exist? Despite what Dialo and perryp will tell you, the truth is that they and no one else really know.

The official CIA and Pentagon stance is that the Israeli nuclear weapons program is fact. There is quite a bit of detail leading to that conclusion. The only thing pointing in the other way is your selective application of "by way of deception." While that certainly is a possibility, it's rather unlikely.

http://www.wisconsinproject.org/coun...rael/nuke.html

[vmarks]

Originally posted by dialo:
The official CIA and Pentagon stance is that the Israeli nuclear weapons program is fact. There is quite a bit of detail leading to that conclusion. The only thing pointing in the other way is your selective application of "by way of deception." While that certainly is a possibility, it's rather unlikely.

http://www.wisconsinproject.org/coun...rael/nuke.html

Yet you completely distrust the CIA and Pentagon stance when it comes to nations like Iraq? When it comes to events like 9/11?

Interesting.

[dialo]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Yet you completely distrust the CIA and Pentagon stance when it comes to nations like Iraq? When it comes to events like 9/11?

No, I don't trust anything until I see the evidence in detail and put everything in its appropriate political context. While I've never studied Israeli nuclear weapons in depth, all of the evidence I have seen points in the direction of them having them, and nothing I've seen points in the opposite direction. We have every reason to believe Israel has pursued nuclear weapons.

But, as I said, the possibility that this is all some elaborate scheme does exists, though it is unlikely. The information is too precise and detailed. Compare that to other disinformation operations, which use information that does not stand up to scrutiny but is still able to make its way into popular consciousness.

And very interesting that while you recognize the use of deception, you selectively apply it to where you see fit.

As for the CIA and Iraq, I agree with most CIA analysts on Iraq, not the reports that came as a result of external and internal political pressure.

[vmarks]

Originally posted by dialo:
No, I don't trust anything until I see the evidence in detail and put everything in its appropriate political context. While I've never studied Israeli nuclear weapons in depth, all of the evidence I have seen points in the direction of them having them, and nothing I've seen points in the opposite direction. We have every reason to believe Israel has pursued nuclear weapons.

But, as I said, the possibility that this is all some elaborate scheme does exists, though it is unlikely. The information is too precise and detailed. Compare that to other disinformation operations, which use information that does not stand up to scrutiny but is still able to make its way into popular consciousness.

And very interesting that while you recognize the use of deception, you selectively apply it to where you see fit.

That's because deception is a selectively used tool. It isn't the only trick in the bag.

As for the CIA and Iraq, I agree with most CIA analysts on Iraq, not the reports that came as a result of external and internal political pressure.

So you selectively filter reports for what you will or won't believe in- how is that any different than what I do?

[dialo]

Originally posted by vmarks:
So you selectively filter reports for what you will or won't believe in- how is that any different than what I do?

No, not only is the political pressure put on the CIA and DIA (especially after the formation of OSP) well known, the attitude within the intel community toward the politicization of intelligence regarding Iraq in particular and terrorism in general is quite public and discussed everywhere from the smallest listserv to the largest media outlets.

OSP was created for a reason, and that reason was because those following responsible analysis practices were not coming to the conclusion desired by those building the case for war.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Do such weapons exist? Despite what Dialo and perryp will tell you, the truth is that they and no one else really know.

Does "knowing" really matter anymore? Precedent has now been set to convict on belief and suspicion alone.

[theolein]

Originally posted by vmarks:
First of all, someone makes the leap from power plant (not acknowledged) to weapons (likewise not acknowledged.) -- That alone is a huge leap to make.

Second of all, violating sworn secrecy is a violation of law. Britain has such a law, America has such a law- most modern countries do.

Third of all, the law-breaker chose not to accept an offer for early release.

Fourth, the law-breaker's personal politics are aligned with those who see themselves as Israel's enemy- He shouldn't be trusted in a position of security, or be trusted as a source for information on security.

I laughed out loud when I read this apologist bullsh1t. You are such a clown, vmarks, you should be in the circus. Your precious little Israel can really do no wrong, can it? The day Israel nukes another country in retribution for a suicide bombing, I can still see you claiming here that it justified and that Israel in fact has no nuclear weapons.

[loksar]

Originally posted by vmarks:
First of all, someone makes the leap from power plant (not acknowledged) to weapons (likewise not acknowledged.) -- That alone is a huge leap to make.

Man I am gone for a while and you guys are letting vmarks get away with this stuff??? (oh sorry, good job theolin)

Hey vmarks, does North Vietnam have nuclear weapons? Yes? Of course they do because the U.S. government says they do.

Blah blah more Israeli apologies blah blah.

They have nukes. We the US gave them to them along with all their other weapons and bulldozers and wall building equipment. So that they can "defend" themselves by killing women and children with F-16s.

Because God said after WWII "I hate muslims and Palestinians. Let their be Israel."

[perryp]

Originally posted by theolein:
I laughed out loud when I read this apologist bullsh1t. You are such a clown, vmarks, you should be in the circus. Your precious little Israel can really do no wrong, can it? The day Israel nukes another country in retribution for a suicide bombing, I can still see you claiming here that it justified and that Israel in fact has no nuclear weapons.