[BlackGriffen]

Here is a very recent (1/26/2004) campaign rally and q&a session Dean held at Philips Exeter in NH.

Now, what I don't mean is that you'll get a candid camera glimpse into Dean's life. What I mean is that you'll be able to see Dean without any pundits filtering and commenting.

Some things that impress me:

• His reasoning is very sound.
• His speaking style is not polished ("idear", many starts and stops in less than smooth places), but clear.
• His candidness and apparent
• He kept his cool just fine under repeated questioning from a young man in the audience.

The most impressive thing about Dean is his record as the governor of VT. He isn't promising pie in the sky, he's offering to do for the nation what he has already done effectively in VT.

Of particular note, he outlines how his health care initiative works.

BlackGriffen

P.S. Please don't mind the red meat thrown in to appease the rabid Democrats on the eve of the primary.

[Evan_11]

Didn't you get the memo?

Dean's a has been.

Sorry your man screwed the pooch with his antics in Iowa.

Kerry will prove to be easy pray for the Bush campaign.

[Face Ache]

Dean would be great for America. Unfortunately he doesn't have the hair for it.

Bush will beat Kerry.

You get the leaders you deserve.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Face Ache:
Dean would be great for America. Unfortunately he doesn't have the hair for it.

Bush will beat Kerry.

You get the leaders you deserve.

just a moment...don't forget over half of us did NOT vote for Bush, but we got him anyway.
Unfortunately there are people who do deserve bush, but the rest of us don't.

[maxelson]

Calling the election 10 months in advance makes you look like a friggin idiot. NO ONE knows how this one will turn out. Right, Evan?

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
just a moment...don't forget over half of us did NOT vote for Bush, but we got him anyway.
Unfortunately there are people who do deserve bush, but the rest of us don't.

Half of your eligible citizens DID NOT VOTE AT ALL.

Three-fourths of you did not vote against Bush, so you got him.

Fair's fair.


What gets me is that the rest of the world didn't have a say in the matter, and we got him anyway.

-s*

[Evan_11]

Originally posted by maxelson:
Calling the election 10 months in advance makes you look like a friggin idiot. NO ONE knows how this one will turn out. Right, Evan?

Yes, I'm a total idiot. Thanks for reminding me Max.

Don't have a heart attack too soon, ok?

[Evan_11]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
just a moment...don't forget over half of us did NOT vote for Bush, but we got him anyway.
Unfortunately there are people who do deserve bush, but the rest of us don't.

Quit whinning Lerk.

Do I have to prove again that the man you would of voted for, Gebbie voted for the resolution to go to war.

The man you most agree with, Kucinich, you don't even like.

It's people like you who make a career out of bitching about things instead of changing them.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Evan_11:
It's people like you who make a career out of bitching about things instead of changing them.

Harsh words for a fanboy.

Let's see your credentials.

[maxelson]

Originally posted by Evan_11:
Yes, I'm a total idiot. Thanks for reminding me Max.

Don't have a heart attack too soon, ok?

So. You have no actual argument? Just some lame insult.
Well. Good for you. Everyone needs a hobby.
Thank you for the concern about my health, but it is unwarranted. Perhaps, like Lerk and I, you should just become involved in things- you know- like a concerned citizen. Maybe your local school board? Zoning Board? Town Hall? City management? That sort of thing? Vote, even?
Unless of course, you already do that sort of thing. Judging from your clever retort to Lerk (whinning?), you must be working non stop for your country! Can't wait to hear about it!

[Zimphire]

Actually it sounds like he hit it pretty close to the mark.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Evan_11:
Quit whinning Lerk.

Do I have to prove again that the man you would of voted for, Gebbie voted for the resolution to go to war.

The man you most agree with, Kucinich, you don't even like.

It's people like you who make a career out of bitching about things instead of changing them.

just as an object lesson, let's recap:

I criticize Bush, you criticize me.
You've spent several posts in several threads trying to set me up or flame bait me.
I've calmly and directly answered your question about Gephardt in another thread...not that your badgering deserved a serious response.

I suppose your intent is to continue to personally flamebait me until....something happens (what, I'm not sure).

I guess everyone needs to have a goal. for picking a hobby. I hope that works out well for you at some point.
I'm flattered I am that important to you.

[maxelson]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Actually it sounds like he hit it pretty close to the mark.

Hit what, ZIm? How? Please elaborate. Looking forward to it.
Maybe you should add to the conversation by helping us out with your own civic contributions. I mean, since you're commenting on it and all.

[Zimphire]

Max I can, and I am sure you can see the difference between legitimate criticism, and just silly petty OMG TEH PRESIDENT IS TEH SUX0R that mostly goes on in this part of the forum.

The first is a good thing. The latter is just petty political zealotness.

[Ayelbourne]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
The latter is just petty political zealotness.

"Zealotry".

[maxelson]

THis argument goes in both directions, and of course, I agree with that sentiment.
HOWEVER, just as rampant is the wholesale shotgunning of dissenters. You yourself have been guilty of simply applying the label of "Bush Hater" to those who have legitimate questions and VERY legitimate complaints. I have been guilty of slinging the Party Sheep moniker. When I do sling it, though, I hope someone would prove me worng and actually explain to me why that is incorrect. If I try to explain why I am not simply a "Bush Hater", we get, "must've hit the nail on the head". Nice. Good show. Indicates we are progressing.

Me, I am far more concerned about educating our populace than taking offensive military action. I QUESTION this administration often and as a point, I feel, of responsibility. It is MY DUTY as a citizen to look into these things and NOT take what they say as absolute or even relative truth.
I have a brain. I use it. I examine the evidence. I take a look at the spin (which is not hard to find) and generally set it aside.
The arrogance and condescension and, yes, ignorance of some of your arguments astounds me. You call me a "Bush Hater" and deny my intelligence when you boil an argument down like that.
THAT angers me. I do not get specifically angry at you, though. I see your response as quite common. To me, that response is irresponsible and unpatriotic.
YOu have your belief system and political ideologies. Fine. I do not decry that. I do not take issue with that. It is the simple pigeon holing of whomever it is who would disagree with you that I object to. And yes, you DO do that (your response to the question notwithstanding, I can pull 3 or 4 examples just from TODAY)
Someone pops up with a very detailed argument- a rationale for how an opinion is formed and if you don't like it, you'll be popping up the crybaby pix. Or a pic of Arafat (not sure I got the reference, but that's as maybe) Someone stoops to that same level and you say, "must've hit the nail on the head". Or "Bush Hater".
Now, next, I am sure you'll point out thaT "well, the lefties do it too!"
So what? Why don't you take that moral high road you're always talking about? Argue back purely on the basis of the argument? Why don't you just go back to that billion dollar thread, and instead of slapping some inane pic up there, actually ADDRESS my argument?


My point is this: like most of the folks in this country, you seem uninterested in asking the questions and QUITE interested in decrying those who do as dissenters, leftists and haters. Guess what, kid: this country was founded on dissent. Because power is such a drug- a drug which will cloud even the most level headed soul- I will continue to question EVERY administration that hold the office. I will poke and prod and yell at the top of my lungs when I see a foul.
At this moment, I see foul. Lots of them. I see a fouls that give Republicans a bad name. I see a fouls that will do nothing but harm us quite seriously in the short AND long term. And yep, I will continue to shout "foul". I don't give a turd WHO is in office.

[Ayelbourne]

Originally posted by maxelson:
My point is this: like most of the folks in this country, you seem uninterested in asking the questions and QUITE interested in decrying those who do as dissenters, leftists and haters. Guess what, kid: this country was founded on dissent. Because power is such a drug- a drug which will cloud even the most level headed soul- I will continue to question EVERY administration that hold the office. I will poke and prod and yell at the top of my lungs when I see a foul.

In support of this I quote Israeli commentator Ze'ev Sternhell:

"What is the nature of the public interest and who serves it better - someone who exposes the truth about government actions, or someone who helps whitewash the facts? Is the public interest better served by someone who hides behind an administrative hierarchy and clings to dry regulations, or by someone who decides to act in breach of the regulations and thereby ensures that the public is informed about crucial facts?

"It's worth reminding those who may have forgotten that the government is a trust owned by the ordinary citizen and that those who hold government positions are no more than trustees. Therefore, to know the facts is not only the right of the citizen, it is his duty and obligation, so that he will be able to carry out his role as owner of the trust. In a democracy that is worthy of the name, the citizen is active day in and day out: His role is not confined to casting his vote every few years. It follows that without the free flow of information, democracy is voided of most of its content."

[maxelson]

Worth quoting in bold.
Amen.
Saved and Printed. Thanks, Ayelbourne. Most important post in the Pol Forum, I'm thinking.

Originally posted by Ayelbourne:
In support of this I quote Israeli commentator Ze'ev Sternhell:

"What is the nature of the public interest and who serves it better - someone who exposes the truth about government actions, or someone who helps whitewash the facts? Is the public interest better served by someone who hides behind an administrative hierarchy and clings to dry regulations, or by someone who decides to act in breach of the regulations and thereby ensures that the public is informed about crucial facts?

"It's worth reminding those who may have forgotten that the government is a trust owned by the ordinary citizen and that those who hold government positions are no more than trustees. Therefore, to know the facts is not only the right of the citizen, it is his duty and obligation, so that he will be able to carry out his role as owner of the trust. In a democracy that is worthy of the name, the citizen is active day in and day out: His role is not confined to casting his vote every few years. It follows that without the free flow of information, democracy is voided of most of its content."

[Ayelbourne]

Originally posted by maxelson:
You call me a "Bush Hater" and deny my intelligence when you boil an argument down like that.

It rather seems to me like he (Zimphire) is just trying to pull the discourse down to a level where he feels qualified to participate.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Ayelbourne:
It rather seems to me like he (Zimphire) is just trying to pull the discourse down to a level where he feels qualified to participate.

Oh come on.. I don't mind a good Bush bash. Esp when it's warranted.

But half the complaints in here are petty and just plain silly.

I couldn't bring that sort of discourse down any lower I am afraid.

[Ayelbourne]

Originally posted by maxelson:
Worth quoting in bold.
Amen.
Saved and Printed. Thanks, Ayelbourne. Most important post in the Pol Forum, I'm thinking.

My pleasure. I wish I were eloquent, but alas... more often than not, others articulate my beliefs so much better than I myself am able to.

Half of the reason I hang around here is to simply learn. There are some very sharp people in here, on all sides of the issues, who do their research and can formulate a cogent argument to support their views. And there are some people who... well... don't and can't.

Signal-to-noise ratio.

[Ayelbourne]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Oh come on.. I don't mind a good Bush bash. Esp when it's warranted.

But half the complaints in here are petty and just plain silly.

I couldn't bring that sort of discourse down any lower I am afraid.

So don't play along. Just ignore it, and move on to the actual content. One can always choose not to be part of the problem.

[kindbud]

That's called 'inaction' and, yes, it's part of the problem. See also; France, Germany

It's hard to fail if you never take action - but it's also impossible to succeed.

[maxelson]

Hm. By inaction, you mean not taking part in something in which you do not believe, well, then, I'll have to disagree with your assessment. The inaction you mention was accompanied by some pretty loud protest- followed by... ridicule from folks here- in this country and in this forum. Those who supported their right to dissent were ridiculed as well.

They took action. It just wasn't the action you were looking for..

[Ayelbourne]

Originally posted by kindbud:
That's called 'inaction' and, yes, it's part of the problem. See also; France, Germany

It's hard to fail if you never take action - but it's also impossible to succeed.

I'm sorry, I think we're talking about two different things. I was recommending non-participation in the answering of obviously partison zealotry with obvious inanity, in the interests of keeping the forum discourse here reasonably intelligent. A self-imposed low-pass filter, if you will.

[Ayelbourne]

Originally posted by maxelson:
They took action. It just wasn't the action you were looking for..

Newton's Third Law Of Physics.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by Face Ache:
You get the leaders you deserve.

"They say you get the government you deserve, but I don't remember knife-raping any retarded nuns." --The Onion 2002

BOT: the link is broken, BG.

Oh, and for pete's sake, stop feeding the trolls.

[boots]

Originally posted by maxelson:

My point is this: like most of the folks in this country, you seem uninterested in asking the questions and QUITE interested in decrying those who do as dissenters, leftists and haters. Guess what, kid: this country was founded on dissent. Because power is such a drug- a drug which will cloud even the most level headed soul- I will continue to question EVERY administration that hold the office. I will poke and prod and yell at the top of my lungs when I see a foul.
At this moment, I see foul. Lots of them. I see a fouls that give Republicans a bad name. I see a fouls that will do nothing but harm us quite seriously in the short AND long term. And yep, I will continue to shout "foul". I don't give a turd WHO is in office.

Originally posted by Ayelbourne:
In support of this I quote Israeli commentator Ze'ev Sternhell:

"What is the nature of the public interest and who serves it better - someone who exposes the truth about government actions, or someone who helps whitewash the facts? Is the public interest better served by someone who hides behind an administrative hierarchy and clings to dry regulations, or by someone who decides to act in breach of the regulations and thereby ensures that the public is informed about crucial facts?

"It's worth reminding those who may have forgotten that the government is a trust owned by the ordinary citizen and that those who hold government positions are no more than trustees. Therefore, to know the facts is not only the right of the citizen, it is his duty and obligation, so that he will be able to carry out his role as owner of the trust. In a democracy that is worthy of the name, the citizen is active day in and day out: His role is not confined to casting his vote every few years. It follows that without the free flow of information, democracy is voided of most of its content.

Max, Ayelbourne....thanks.

[BlackGriffen]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
"They say you get the government you deserve, but I don't remember knife-raping any retarded nuns." --The Onion 2002

BOT: the link is broken, BG.

The link is fine, you'll just have to feed it straight into RealPlayer. Here it is in plain text:

Code:
rtsp://video.c-span.org/project/c04/c04012604_dean.rm

Basically, the link on the site was a javascript thing on the main page that would soon disappear. This was the closest I could get to a direct link.

BlackGriffen