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SimeyTheLimey · Feb 3, 2004, 05:13 AM

I just woke up to this story. I'm not quite sure what to make of it.

he three Senate office buildings will be closed today as authorities continue investigating the powder found in the office of Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, which tested positive yesterday for the lethal poison ricin.

The Capitol building will be open only for "essential personnel," according to Frist's office.

U.S. Capitol Police Chief Terrance W. Gainer said powder was found about 3 p.m. Monday in a mailroom attached to Frist's office. Six of the first eight tests conducted on the powder showed that the substance could be ricin, a poison with no known antidote. The results of further tests performed overnight are due later today.

There have been no public reports of illness, injury or of individuals showing symptoms of ricin poisoning, such respiratory distress, fever and nausea.

While not diminishing the potential danger or making any predictions, specialists noted last night that there is a history of false alarms raised by preliminary tests such as those conducted after yesterday's discovery.

"A lot of the time these field tests are wrong," said one federal security specialist Meanwhile, the Dirksen, Hart and Russell buildings will be closed.

Frist's office said that the buildings were closed "to facilitate the collection and removal of unopened mail." While the Capitol will remain open, only "essential Capitol personnel" are to report, said the announcement. All tours are cancelled as well.

"We're taking this as seriously as you can possibly take it," D.C. Police Chief Charles H. Ramsey said.

Hopefully, it is another false alarm. However, the New York Times says that the substance that tested positive for Ricin was found in mail to the Senator. If so, that would be quite a blow to the FBI's theories about Stephen Hatfill. It would also be quite a blow to the government, who has been telling us government employees that our mail is now tested before delivery.

Ayelbourne · Feb 3, 2004, 05:31 AM

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
It would also be quite a blow to the government, who has been telling us government employees that our mail is now tested before delivery.

I suppose it all depends on your definition of the word "tested"...

Spheric Harlot · Feb 3, 2004, 08:16 AM

I'm sure someone in the administration will use the similarity of "ricin" and "rice" to imply some connection that will never be expressly denied but suffice to swing public opinion round in favor of bombing North Korea just before the elections.

Just you wait.

It's not like this hasn't been done before.

-s*

SimeyTheLimey · Feb 3, 2004, 08:37 AM

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
I'm sure someone in the administration will use the similarity of "ricin" and "rice" to imply some connection that will never be expressly denied but suffice to swing public opinion round in favor of bombing North Korea just before the elections.

Just you wait.

It's not like this hasn't been done before.

-s*

I'm glad you seem to think this is a joke. It must be nice to live in such a safe place.

Anyhow, your smug cynicism aside, the news is reporting that ricin isn't that big of a deal. Ricin isn't as deadly as anthrax. The Senate remains closed but nobody seems to have been injured by whetever this stuff was. It's amazing how calm everyone is. Then again, there is a big ice storm right now. Most people are more worried about how to get to work.

Lerkfish · Feb 3, 2004, 08:55 AM

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I'm glad you seem to think this is a joke. It must be nice to live in such a safe place.

hm. I thought invading Iraq made us automatically safe. Go figure.

eklipse · Feb 3, 2004, 08:56 AM

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
....ricin isn't that big of a deal. Ricin isn't as deadly as anthrax.

No....it's only 6,000 times more deadly than cyanide and has no known antidote.....DON'T WORRY FOLKS!!

The War On BS continues......

Spheric Harlot · Feb 3, 2004, 08:59 AM

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I'm glad you seem to think this is a joke. It must be nice to live in such a safe place.

If you think I'm laughing, perhaps you haven't been reading my posts over the past two years.

Evan_11 · Feb 3, 2004, 09:31 AM

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
If you think I'm laughing, perhaps you haven't been reading my posts over the past two years.

Your posts are a joke in themselves. Rarely do you post any substance. Mostly personal attacks and knee jerk responses. Wow I just almost sounded like lerkfish...scary

Evan_11 · Feb 3, 2004, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
hm. I thought invading Iraq made us automatically safe. Go figure.

That has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Move along trollbait.

SimeyTheLimey · Feb 3, 2004, 09:37 AM

Originally posted by eklipse:
No....it's only 6,000 times more deadly than cyanide and has no known antidote.....DON'T WORRY FOLKS!!

The War On BS continues......

I really don't know anything about the science of it, and I'd appreciate any information that you have. All I know is the local news this morning was saying that ricin is harder to weaponize than anthrax. It's supposedly not like the very fine, easily breatheable powder that was used in the previous attacks in the Senate.

On the other hand, I am aware of the murder of Georgi Markov with the poisoned pellet firing umbrella in London in 1979. I believe that used ricin. But that was shot into his leg.

Anyway, so far there has been no firm confirmation that this is ricin. Nor have there been any reported injuries. Let's hope it stays that way.

Wiskedjak · Feb 3, 2004, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Ricin in the Senate

Saddam MUST BE STOPPED! Oh ... wait ... who do we blame now?

eklipse · Feb 3, 2004, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I really don't know anything about the science of it, and I'd appreciate any information that you have. All I know is the local news this morning was saying that ricin is harder to weaponize than anthrax. It's supposedly not like the very fine, easily breatheable powder that was used in the previous attacks in the Senate.

http://www.nationalterroralert.com/readyguide/ricin.htm
http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/ricin.html

SimeyTheLimey · Feb 3, 2004, 09:53 AM

Originally posted by eklipse:
http://www.nationalterroralert.com/readyguide/ricin.htm
http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/ricin.html

Thanks. It sounds like we'd know by now if a large number of people had been exposed.

Spheric Harlot · Feb 3, 2004, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by Evan_11:
Your posts are a joke in themselves. Rarely do you post any substance. Mostly personal attacks and knee jerk responses. Wow I just almost sounded like lerkfish...scary

ah.

Spheric Harlot · Feb 3, 2004, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Saddam MUST BE STOPPED! Oh ... wait ... who do we blame now?

The Koreans. See my post above.

Lerkfish · Feb 3, 2004, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by Evan_11:
That has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Move along trollbait.

I disagree, it has everything to do with the topic on hand.

When Spheric made a comment, Simey lashed out at him for making comments from a "safe place", implying the US was no longer a safe place. My question is right on topic: if invading Saddam did not make the US a safe place, then why did we do it?

SimeyTheLimey · Feb 3, 2004, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
I disagree, it has everything to do with the topic on hand.

When Spheric made a comment, Simey lashed out at him for making comments from a "safe place", implying the US was no longer a safe place. My question is right on topic: if invading Saddam did not make the US a safe place, then why did we do it?

Did anyone ever claim that it would make the US a "safe place"? No. So your argument is a strawman.

Lerkfish · Feb 3, 2004, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Did anyone ever claim that it would make the US a "safe place"? No. So your argument is a strawman.

sigh....such blatant hostility.

BOT: do they have any leads on who planted the ricin yet?

SimeyTheLimey · Feb 3, 2004, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
sigh....such blatant hostility.

BOT: do they have any leads on who planted the ricin yet?

I don't think that they have confirmed for sure that it is ricin yet. All they said is that they found an envelope in the mail addressed to Frist that had a suspicious powder. Several tests have yielded positive results for ricin, and several have yielded negative. My uneducated guess is that proper tests take more time. In the mean time, the entire Senate is closed.

Lerkfish · Feb 3, 2004, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I don't think that they have confirmed for sure that it is ricin yet. All they said is that they found an envelope in the mail addressed to Frist that had a suspicious powder. Several tests have yielded positive results for ricin, and several have yielded negative. My uneducated guess is that proper tests take more time. In the mean time, the entire Senate is closed.

Better safe than sorry. Still, it always makes me queasy because it has the appearance of making the attack or threat effective.

Wiskedjak · Feb 3, 2004, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I really don't know anything about the science of it, and I'd appreciate any information that you have ...

Now you want to know the science of it but when some hints of ricen were the only evidence of Saddam's massive weapons arsenal ricen was a WMD.

eklipse · Feb 3, 2004, 10:41 AM

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Now you want to know the science of it but when some hints of ricen were the only evidence of Saddam's massive weapons arsenal ricen was a WMD.

LOL!

Millennium · Feb 3, 2004, 10:51 AM

Quick; let's roll over and do whatever the guy wants, so he won't send us more ricin. Obviously if he wants to kill us then his points must be articulate and valid.

Lerkfish · Feb 3, 2004, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by Millennium:
Quick; let's roll over and do whatever the guy wants, so he won't send us more ricin. Obviously if he wants to kill us then his points must be articulate and valid.

LOL!

SimeyTheLimey · Feb 3, 2004, 11:44 AM

The latest is that Frist is saying he was told the powder was ricin. However, I think the word still isn't really official. Washington Post.

thunderous_funker · Feb 3, 2004, 12:20 PM

Anyone else find the timing highly convenient?

Kay reports we were wrong on almost all counts, but does mention that they had ongoing R&D on ricin...

massive political pressure forces Bush to agree to half-assed commission on intelligence against his wishes.....

BAM! Ricin in Frist's office. Practically the only agent mentioned by name in the last week of debate.

I can hardly wait for what "remedy" will be proposed in the interest of national security. Perhaps we'd better call off the election until the culprits can be found?

version · Feb 3, 2004, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I just woke up to this story. I'm not quite sure what to make of it.

i know what to make of it, and just like the Anthrax scare, it's done by US nationals and in some way to highten the fear already there in regards to terrorist attacks.

Must be an election coming up, wonder what this year's major terrorist attack will be?

Lerkfish · Feb 3, 2004, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
Anyone else find the timing highly convenient?

Kay reports we were wrong on almost all counts, but does mention that they had ongoing R&D on ricin...

massive political pressure forces Bush to agree to half-assed commission on intelligence against his wishes.....

BAM! Ricin in Frist's office. Practically the only agent mentioned by name in the last week of debate.

I can hardly wait for what "remedy" will be proposed in the interest of national security. Perhaps we'd better call off the election until the culprits can be found?

the timing is ALWAYS convenient on these things....but that does not necessarily mean those who benefit from the timing caused it to happen.

but, yeah, convenient. Just like Saddam's capture.

Lerkfish · Feb 3, 2004, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by version:
i know what to make of it, and just like the Anthrax scare, it's done by US nationals and in some way to highten the fear already there in regards to terrorist attacks.

Must be an election coming up, wonder what this year's major terrorist attack will be?

I fear that within a month or two of the election, there'll be a large scale terrorists attack. No matter the source, this will be a rallying cry for the bushies as proof he was correct to invade Iraq. Ironically, the failure of the war on terror will be perceived as the success of the war on terror.

Millennium · Feb 3, 2004, 01:27 PM

I doubt that either this or the previous anthrax scare was actually planned out by the Bush administration.

Mind you, I don't doubt that they'd consider it. And they'd probably go through with it, if they thought they could do it without being caught. But they stand too much to lose right now, particularly with Bush under scrutiny.

Yes, I'm a cynical bastard who thinks the only reason the Bush administration wouldn't go through with this is politics. However, politics are a very powerful deterrent.

thunderous_funker · Feb 3, 2004, 01:38 PM

I think you grossly overestimate the "scrutiny".

These guys have gotten away with more in 3 years than I could have ever thought possible.

dialo · Feb 3, 2004, 01:39 PM

It is interesting that whoever did this used ricin knowing that it would not kill anyone yet would have the psychological impact of the public thinking "BW agent" combined with the previous anthrax attack.

That is, if this turns out to really be ricin.

roger_ramjet · Feb 3, 2004, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by Millennium:
... Yes, I'm a cynical bastard...

Cynical? Paranoid is more like it.

spacefreak · Feb 3, 2004, 01:53 PM

The disarray of the left's conspiracy theories on this topic is amusing. I guess no one has come up with a detailed summation 'proving' that this is all a plot cooked up by the Bush admin.

Such a web page will surface soon enough, giving the far-left a uniformed thesis by which to adopt.

thunderous_funker · Feb 3, 2004, 01:54 PM

Not to worry. I'm sure the culprit will be sharing a jail cell with the anthrax-bandit soon enough.

dialo · Feb 3, 2004, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by spacefreak:
The disarray of the left's conspiracy theories on this topic is amusing. I guess no one has come up with a detailed summation 'proving' that this is all a plot cooked up by the Bush admin.

Such a web page will surface soon enough, giving the far-left a uniformed thesis by which to adopt.

Hey, at least no one's going to war over that one, unlike those dispoven conspiracy theories latched onto by the right (specifically some of the highest officials in the bush admin):

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/fea...12.bergen.html

Not to mention, of course, the whole WMD thing.

spacefreak · Feb 3, 2004, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by dialo:
Hey, at least no one's going to war over that one, unlike those dispoven conspiracy theories latched onto by the right (specifically some of the highest officials in the bush admin):

Oooh...that's a good one.

Let me know when you have the new links for the approved and adopted by the left "Bush behind Ricin" theories, since that would be somewhat on topic.

Lerkfish · Feb 3, 2004, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Oooh...that's a good one.

Let me know when you have the new links for the approved and adopted by the left "Bush behind Ricin" theories, since that would be somewhat on topic.

touchy, touchy. hit a nerve, did he? Didn't like acknowledging that we actually invaded Iraq on an unsubstantiated conspiracy theory that proved false?

Millennium · Feb 3, 2004, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
Cynical? Paranoid is more like it.

I'm not arguing that they did it; I don't think they did. Only that they wouldn't be above doing it if they thought they could get away with it.

roger_ramjet · Feb 3, 2004, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by Millennium:
I'm not arguing that they did it...

So? I didn't think that was your argument.

... Only that they wouldn't be above doing it if they thought they could get away with it.

Like I said: paranoid

tie · Feb 3, 2004, 07:53 PM

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I just woke up to this story. I'm not quite sure what to make of it.

I feel better knowing that we've finally discovered what's left of Iraq's massive weapons of mass destruction stockpiles.

The stupidity of the current administration's security and anti-terrorism policies -- i.e., invading completely unrelated countries, and lying about it -- doesn't make me feel better. They're clearly incompetent on this issue.

theolein · Feb 3, 2004, 11:54 PM

OMG!!! WMD!!!

Here we go again, with a twist. Our brave Simey getting upset because someone doesn't see the danger he's in. I remember this exact argument last year when we were arguing about Iraq and laying one's life on the line... Yet Simey survived to tell the tale.

As for the story itself, I think it's an interesting issue, with some small but major differences to the anthrax attacks in 2001.

Firstly, the anthrax attacks used... anthrax. And they used weaponised anthrax. Doing that is not simple and is not something that one can do in one's kitchen at home. Weaponised anthrax spores are specifically ground to the optimal size for ingestion into the lungs. Anthrax spores also multiply, of course, once in the body, which is why they kill.

Ricin can be made by just about anyone. All you need is castor beans, and they can be bought all over and even grow wild. It doesn't need special equipment or knowledge (Try a google search and you'll see what I mean). It is extremely poisonous, but, it is not normally ingested through the skin, unlike chemical weapons. It is a poison and not a spore. It needs a fair amount to be ingested, in reality, in order to kill. If you sniffed it like you do when you satisfy your drug habit, you'd be dead soon, but normally, it wouldn't spread through air contioners and getting abit on your fingers woudn't do anything to you.

Secondly, The anthrax attacks on the US senate were both directed against democratic senators. Why would foreign terrorists prefer killing democrats to republicans when there is a republican president and both house are controlled by republicans?

This ricin attack, comparatively harmless compared to the anthrax attack, is made against the house republican leader. The chances of anybody dying here were pretty small.

Thirdly, the timing couldn't be better in both cases. The anthrax attacks immediately after 9/11 (and the culprits are still at large) and this ricin attack at the same time as David Kay's debunking of the WMD story.

Almost as if someone wants to say, "Look, WMD are still dangerous!!! We still have to be vigilant"

SimeyTheLimey · Feb 4, 2004, 06:32 AM

Originally posted by theolein:
Secondly, The anthrax attacks on the US senate were both directed against democratic senators. Why would foreign terrorists prefer killing democrats to republicans when there is a republican president and both house are controlled by republicans?

The Senate was controlled by Democrats at the time of the Anthrax attacks. Daschle was Senate Majority Leader. Bill Frist is the Senate Majority Leader today, because the Senate has changed hands and is now controlled by Republicans.

According to the Washington Post, the White House received a similar crude ricin package in November. It contained a letter talking about trucking regulations. This is presumably the same nutcase. Not that it makes the idea of someone sending poisons in the mail any less alarming.