[dhinkel]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3480193.stm

It just shows that anti-semitism has never died in Germany, and that many "anti-war" activists are closet anti-semites.

(edited: wrong link)

[vmarks]

It doesn't show anything of the sort- Your link is about South Africa, with a brief mention of Zimbabwe, not Germany, anti-war, or murder of a Jewish student.

If you find the correct link, I'm interested in reading it. Until then, I withhold judgement. As it is, you'd think I would have read this news on Haaretz.com. It isn't there.

[dhinkel]

link corrected

[Logic]

Read the new link, but still can't find anything about a Anti-Semitic Anti-war group murdering him

Can you find (yet) another link?

[FeLiZeCaT]

Quoted from dhinkel:

It just shows that anti-Semitism has never died in Germany, and that many "anti-war" activists are closet anti-Semites.
_________________________


Racism and discriminatory attitudes are not proper to nations; their are own by individuals. It is a group of individuals that will create policies promoting discrimination and racism in a country. Not the country itself.

When someone blames a country for its racism, that someone generalizes one characteristic to more people than it should. Generalizations are fantastic tools of misinformation and division.

They misinform by not focusing on details that are pertinent and give an homogeneous picture of a situation that deserves better treatment if we are to believe in something like reality and facts.

They divide because they reduce a group of people to their ownership of one characteristic, which is opposed to other groups of people with other characteristics.

"Us=Good. Them=Bad"; "Us" and "Them" being variables of the eternal equation of difference, and of which values can be changed for "black", "white", "rich", "poor", "Catholics", "Protestants" etc. ad infinitum and in any permutation possible.

I think we often forget that prejudice and ignorance are most likely the cause of any discriminatory attitudes, and that these can change since they are cultural.

The danger of generalizing anti-Semitism to Germany starts from the prejudice that if it happened in Germany, it should be worst because Germany was a focus of attention during World War II for its anti-Semitism.

But anti-Semitism has been around for a very long time, and was (is still today) practised by people outside Germany.

The title of this thread and its post reflects a lot of prejudice and ignorance from the poster.

[dhinkel]

Originally posted by Logic:
Read the new link, but still can't find anything about a Anti-Semitic Anti-war group murdering him

People like you, with your practised indifference, allowed the holocaust to happen

[Logic]

Originally posted by dhinkel:
People like you, with your practised indifference, allowed the holocaust to happen

My practiced indifference? Please elaborate on how people like I allowed the holocaust to happen. That's a very serious accusation.

[Fanatic]

Originally posted by Logic:
My practiced indifference? Please elaborate on how people like I allowed the holocaust to happen. That's a very serious accusation.

Way to go, Logic!!!! You warmonger...

[eklipse]

Originally posted by dhinkel:
People like you, with your practised indifference, allowed the holocaust to happen

May I suggest a visit here: http://bong.com ?

I think the glue on your old pipe is producing plastic fumes.


Hurry! Free shipping on orders over $99!

[Dudaev's Corpse]

There are all kinds of neo-Nazi freaks in Europe. Plenty of 'mainstream' Europeans sympathise with their positions and have anti-immigrant, racist, and anti-Semitic leanings of their own.

Nothing much to see here.

[Logic]

Originally posted by Dudaev's Corpse:
There are all kinds of neo-Nazi freaks in Europe. Plenty of 'mainstream' Europeans sympathise with their positions and have anti-immigrant, racist, and anti-Semitic leanings of their own.

Nothing much to see here.

Got anything to back that up?

[vmarks]

You mean, like the EU's own report? That's a link to the draft report, due to be released sometime in this, the first quarter of 2004.

Also

This survery of five European countries found HERE is also informative.

For example, 48% of those surveyed in the Netherlands believe that "Jews are more loyal to Israel than this country" and 20% believe that "Jews have too much influence in the business world."

And that's the country that had the least anti-semitic responses according to the survey.

Does that make all Europeans anti-semites? No, and we've had that thread before. It is, however, worth looking at, reading the two links above, and becoming more aware of the people around you.

[Lateralus]

Originally posted by dhinkel:
People like you, with your practised indifference, allowed the holocaust to happen

Shut up.

[Developer]

Originally posted by Logic:
Got anything to back that up?

Obviously I can not speak for Iceland, but you really need to shut both eyes very tightly to not notice that Neonazis exist in Germany and elsewhere in Europe also. They had their "boom" in the eighties, nevertheless they still exist.

On topic, I have never heard about this "Schiller Institut", but this heise article links it to a Nazi group called "LaRouche Organization". Heise also links the death of Petra Kelly to the LaRouche Organization.

So the death of that Briton might have some right extreme background. Could well be.

How you come to the conclusion that anti-war equals anti-semitism escapes me though.

[RooneyX]

These 'Europeans are the only anti-Semites' seem to be the staple theory of proud Americans these days.

Go to most anti-Semitic websites and they're American sadly. The US also has the most openly racist organisations such as the Aryan Nations who are allowed to operate because of 'freedom' of speech. At least in Europe these racist groups are many times shut down or heckled by large groups of protestors. Muslims, blacks, Jews all take flack over here. You even get the odd idiot who is prooud to shoot a Sikh because he thinks 'they are all the same'.

Don't attack Europe. Attack the global problem - racist conspiracy theories.

It's ok to think the rich conspire against the poor, but don't attach notions of race or culture because corruption is a human thing.

[Logic]

Originally posted by Developer:
Obviously I can not speak for Iceland, but you really need to shut both eyes very tightly to not notice that Neonazis exist in Germany and elsewhere in Europe also. They had their "boom" in the eighties, nevertheless they still exist.

I was not saying they didn't exist. I was asking the Corpse(who for some reason doesn't get permanently banned and gets to post at least 50 posts before he finally gets banned while one alias here got banned right away) to prove this:

There are all kinds of neo-Nazi freaks in Europe. Plenty of 'mainstream' Europeans sympathise with their positions and have anti-immigrant, racist, and anti-Semitic leanings of their own.

Nothing much to see here.

I know very well that neo-nazism exists in Europe but the claim that people sympathize with them is ridiculous.

How you come to the conclusion that anti-war equals anti-semitism escapes me though.

Hope you meant dhinkel and not me.

[Logic]

Originally posted by vmarks:
You mean, like the EU's own report? That's a link to the draft report, due to be released sometime in this, the first quarter of 2004.

Also

This survery of five European countries found HERE is also informative.

For example, 48% of those surveyed in the Netherlands believe that "Jews are more loyal to Israel than this country" and 20% believe that "Jews have too much influence in the business world."

And that's the country that had the least anti-semitic responses according to the survey.

Does that make all Europeans anti-semites? No, and we've had that thread before. It is, however, worth looking at, reading the two links above, and becoming more aware of the people around you.

Is it anti-semitism to think that Jews are more loyal to Israel than the country they live in? Is it anti-semitism to think that Jews have too much influence in the business world? Have you checked those data with other data relating to the general feelings to foreigners and especially towards arabs and muslims?

[Logic]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
These 'Europeans are the only anti-Semites' seem to be the staple theory of proud Americans these days.

Go to most anti-Semitic websites and they're American sadly. The US also has the most openly racist organisations such as the Aryan Nations who are allowed to operate because of 'freedom' of speech. At least in Europe these racist groups are many times shut down or heckled by large groups of protestors. Muslims, blacks, Jews all take flack over here. You even get the odd idiot who is prooud to shoot a Sikh because he thinks 'they are all the same'.

Don't attack Europe. Attack the global problem - racist conspiracy theories.

It's ok to think the rich conspire against the poor, but don't attach notions of race or culture because corruption is a human thing.

And just to add a bit. When I lived in Sweden I took part in several anti-racism rallies. And there arabs, swedes, and jews stood together demonstrating against racism. And they were always more people in those demonstrations than in the Neo-Nazi ones.

[Twilly Spree]

Jews, Spics, Wops, Kraut, Niggers, Yanks...

The Europeans hate them all equally.

[vmarks]

Originally posted by Logic:
Is it anti-semitism to think that Jews are more loyal to Israel than the country they live in?

Yes, it is.

Is it anti-semitism to think that Jews have too much influence in the business world?

Yes, it is.

Have you checked those data with other data relating to the general feelings to foreigners and especially towards arabs and muslims?

Yes. That's why the EU report is on "xenophobia, racism, and anti-semitism" not just anti-semitism.

[Logic]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Yes, it is.

Why?

Yes, it is.

Why? Does it make me a racist/xenophobic to think that Americans have too much influence in certain aspects of the Icelandic economy? Does it make me a racist/xenophobic if I don't want foreign investments to become too influential here on Iceland? Does it make me a racist/xenophobic/bigot to want the the influence in economic power in a nation to reflect the population in that country?
Please elaborate.

Yes. That's why the EU report is on "xenophobia, racism, and anti-semitism" not just anti-semitism.

I don't seem to be able to find a similar report made in America. Is there one? And do you think cultural differences in Europe compared to other nations have anything to do with the result of this report? Could it be that Europeans say exactly what they think while other very PC nations would hold back on it?

and one last thing. Why was the Zionist banned after one post while the Corpse™ gets to continue with the same BS again and again?

[Dudaev's Corpse]

Originally posted by Logic:
Why was the Zionist banned after one post while the Corpse™ gets to continue with the same BS again and again?

That guy was hardly zionist. Anti-zionist and antisemitic. You see, Logic, you could use a dose of your namesake. I am banned sometimes, and deservedly so. However, I do not espouse the destruction of a people, and do not promote (or believe in) racism, extremism, murder, or any of the other things that got that nutball banned. I take an aggressive stand and am decidedly capitalist and free-market, while many of the others here are pro-terrorist, weak, appeasement-loving, and quasi-communist. We disagree quite often, but I never wish death or harm to you or your ilk, or any racial or ethnic group.

Peace on Earth. Goodwill towards men.
Have a nice day.

[voodoo]

I'm sorry but this isn't really a case. I don't see why the BBC is blowing the dust off this one. Nothing to see here :/

vmarks: beware on calling anti-semitism where there isn't one. That might bite your people back when there is real anti-semitism about. My advice.

[vmarks]

Originally posted by Logic:
Why?

Simey answered this one a few weeks ago. Questioning a person's loyalty because of their religion is offensive.

Why? Does it make me a racist/xenophobic to think that Americans have too much influence in certain aspects of the Icelandic economy? Does it make me a racist/xenophobic if I don't want foreign investments to become too influential here on Iceland? Does it make me a racist/xenophobic/bigot to want the the influence in economic power in a nation to reflect the population in that country?
Please elaborate.

Last I checked, America is a nation composed of people from every race, religion, and color on this Earth. Saying that Americans have too much influence doesn't make you racist. It DOES make you xenophobic, afraid of that which is foreign. As an Icelander, if you fear American success in Iceland, that fear is xenophobic. If you want the economic success in a nation to reflect the population of that country, that is on it's face discriminatory, not to mention socially manipulative. The original framing of the question revealed whether those surveyed subscribed to any form of the 'Jews run the world' or 'Jews are good with money/hold all the money' myths.

I don't seem to be able to find a similar report made in America. Is there one? And do you think cultural differences in Europe compared to other nations have anything to do with the result of this report? Could it be that Europeans say exactly what they think while other very PC nations would hold back on it?

You mean a report like this one ?

I found another, but their server is down. the google cache is there, but only for half the survey, so I'll wait a day and see if it comes back up.

[vmarks]

Originally posted by voodoo:
I'm sorry but this isn't really a case. I don't see why the BBC is blowing the dust off this one. Nothing to see here :/

vmarks: beware on calling anti-semitism where there isn't one. That might bite your people back when there is real anti-semitism about. My advice.

I'm not even speaking about the BBC article. I'm simply responding to Logic's assertions. He asked for sources on what percentage of Europeans are anti-semitic. What better source than the EU's own report?

We also need to be careful to not overlook anti-semitism where it is, or ignore it because the people professing it are otherwise normal and intelligent.

Avoiding the problem because exposing it might "bite your people back" is a lose-lose proposition: The problem is one that "bites us back", confronting it is a chance to reduce it. Shying away from it allows it to grow, only to "bite back," as you say.

[FeLiZeCaT]

quoted from vmarks:
Last I checked, America is a nation composed of people from every race, religion, and color on this Earth. Saying that Americans have too much influence doesn't make you racist. It DOES make you xenophobic, afraid of that which is foreign. As an Icelander, if you fear American success in Iceland, that fear is xenophobic. If you want the economic success in a nation to reflect the population of that country, that is on it's face discriminatory, not to mention socially manipulative. The original framing of the question revealed whether those surveyed subscribed to any form of the 'Jews run the world' or 'Jews are good with money/hold all the money' myths.
__________________________________________

"Last I checked, America is a nation composed of people from every race"

I do not agree with that: there is only one race and it is called the human race. Any apparent differences are not more important than the colour of our eyes. To state there are human races at this point, is to emphasize differences that are generalized to the entire population of human beings on the planet. We may have genetic markers for the skin color, but then we have genetic markers just as similar for any other caracteristics and we all share them. Using the term "every race" is just another rationalization to accentuate differences that will be used to discriminate at some point or another.

On the other hand, I am not sure Iceland is not a nation composed of every "race". Does that make them xenophobic??? Your judgment of America sounds pretty elitist... Enough of puting people in small boxes!!!!

"It DOES make you xenophobic"

I disagree. Xenophobia: having abnormal fear or hatred of the strange or foreign (from a google search). I am not sure that it is abnormal for the population of a small country like Iceland to be afraid to see its economy swallowed by corporate interest from a foreign country. Is your fear of Palestinians xenophobic? NO, because they kill themselves with bombs in your public places. It is therefore NOT abnormal.

"If you want the economic success in a nation to reflect the population of that country, that is on it's face discriminatory, not to mention socially manipulative."

Well, I wonder what would happen if Canada became your only provider and if we decided to sell to you our overflow of maple syrup and only that. Because it may be a consequence of the monopolization of markets that, at some point, a country discriminate its sales to specific customers. Or you control their access to some specific goods. Example: A certain corporation in America (sorry I do not have a link) bought all the rights of distribution of movies coming from Europe to ALL North America. This means that for some movies produced in Italy, for example, we may never see them in Canada, simply because that American Corporation feels they will not make money out of it. That, I call control of the market and taking customers hostages... Now tell me: who is manipulating whom socially again?

IMHO, the confusion is generated by the idea that Americans are to be blamed for all the troubles of this world and also because of their capitalism. The truth, I believe, is that pretty much every country is using a form of capitalism or another (even the former USSR) and that the issue of economic control appears more and more to be caused by the growing power of Corporations whom are not always so caring for their customers.

Whether the CEOs of America (or the World) are all Jewish, I did not ask and do not care. They could be Inuit (just an idea there to cool assests and markets and what-have-you) for all I care.

My 2 cents.

[rezonate]

Originally posted by Dudaev's Corpse:
There are all kinds of neo-Nazi freaks in Europe. Plenty of 'mainstream' Europeans sympathise with their positions and have anti-immigrant, racist, and anti-Semitic leanings of their own.

Nothing much to see here.

It's not like we tolerate Ku Klux Klan type monkeys running around with sheets on their heads. I'd love to see a report on racism, and anti-Semitism in the US ,you'd be amazed at what will come out.

Fact is, in both Europe and the US, many people have strong anti-Semitic views. Europe seems to be moving away from that at a far greater rate than the US, where xonophobic, and a very slanted world view is firmly entrenched.

[gadster]

Israelis treating Palestinians nowadays is looking more and more like Nazis treating Jews. There, someone had to say it. I don't recoil from it. Not for a moment.

And before you blow your righteous load in my general direction, just sit with that observation for a while. That's all I ask. It's not a big ask.

It's about putting yourself in someone else's shoes.

[vmarks]

Originally posted by gadster:
Israelis treating Palestinians nowadays is looking more and more like Nazis treating Jews. There, someone had to say it. I don't recoil from it. Not for a moment.

And before you blow your righteous load in my general direction, just sit with that observation for a while. That's all I ask. It's not a big ask.

It's about putting yourself in someone else's shoes.

Heard it before. It was wrong before, and it's still wrong. Suggesting it seriously only shows that you either know very little about Nazis, or have an axe to grind.

Up to you to decide which it is.

Remember, Nazis were the ones who turned people into soap and lampshades, who ripped out gold fillings to melt into jewelry, and who experimented on twins by injecting urine into their bloodstream (Mengele.)

What about English colonists and Native American Indians? What about China and Tibet? What about Iraq and Kurdistan? But no- you jump right for the most offensive and inaccurate thing you can think of- the 'Israelis are Nazis' canard.

The spurious argument goes that the military might of Israel, comparable to the militaristic Nazi war machine, is directed against a beleaguered Palestinian population who live in sprawling shantytown refugee camps. Military restrictions mean that the average Palestinian is confined to his town or village, like Jews confined were to ghettos, and that Israeli soldiers at checkpoints humiliate them in the same way that the SS humiliated Jews. Israel, the superior enemy, targets and kills Palestinians, just as the Nazis preyed on powerless Jews during the Holocaust. Israeli oppression and the occupation of the West Bank parallel the aggressively executed expansionist policies of Hitler's regime, and are a nationalist anachronism in the post-modern, twenty-first century world.


So there you have it. A neat thesis, that seems to hang Israel with its own Jewish rope. The Jews have been going on for decades about the crimes perpetrated against them by Hitler, and when given the chance, they behave identically towards the Palestinians. The trouble is that the accusations don't match the facts, and the inhuman crimes of the Nazis are hardly similar to the actions of Israel against the Palestinians. In fact, there is nothing more sick then a vile lie that in some kind of warped way gets the western world off the hook for having stood by whilst six million Jews were slaughtered across Europe between 1939 and 1945. 'It was a terrible crime, but the Jews are no better,' is possibly the most disgusting aspect of this unacceptable comparison.


So why are these allegations without foundation? Simply, because no Jew wants the Palestinians to suffer. Because no Israeli has as his ultimate objective the obliteration of Arabs and Muslims from the face of this Earth. Because what every Jew and certainly every Israeli would like, is for Jew and Arab to live side by side in peace and tranquility. Because what every Jew resents is the fact that Israel can only exist because of military might, and that its survival depends on it.


The Zionism is Nazism accusation is without foundation, superficial and twisted. No Jew has ever herded any Palestinian into a refugee camp, recently or in the past. Whether or not Arabs left their homes in Palestine of their own accord, or were chased out by Israel after the declaration of independence in 1948 is something that is debated by historians.


What is beyond debate is that hundreds of thousands of Jews who lost their homes on the Arab side of the Armistice Line in Palestine, or in Arab countries across the Middle East, were absorbed successfully by a fledgling Israel in the years that followed. No such effort was made by Arab countries to absorb or even improve the conditions of Palestinian refugees in the twenty odd years before the six-day war of 1967.


I don't hear pro-Palestinians referring to Egypt's Nasser as a Nazi for allowing inhuman conditions to flourish in Gaza's disgraceful, ghetto like refugee camps. Nor recently? Millions of dollars have been pumped into the Palestinian Authority coffers over the past eight years from EU funds that include British taxpayers' money. Why hasn't Yassir Arafat used this money to alleviate his own people from their life of squalor and the ramshackle accommodation? Does that make him incompetent? Yes. Corrupt? Probably. A Nazi? Hardly.


What about the oppressive military restrictions? Don't they compare to the restrictions placed on Jews that got steadily worse, leading ultimately to the 'Final Solution'? Most certainly not! The Jews of pre-war Europe were no threat to anyone, least of all Nazi Germany. They were not armed or primed to hate Germans, fed propaganda that allowed them to justify indiscriminate killing of civilians. They didn't harbour terrorists and allow them to operate from their homes. They didn't produce crazed killers who would stop at nothing, including the taking of their own lives, to perpetrate massacres against civilians. The aggressive Nazi military machine that targeted European Jewry was gratuitous and evil. The military actions that restrict the lives of Palestinians are the direct result of their Palestinian violent actions and rhetoric, and were Palestinians only to ensure the end of violence against Israel and its civilians, the military 'oppression' would end overnight. And no one would be happier then Israel.


The targeted killings of Palestinian terrorist kingpins are undoubtedly the ugly side of a difficult war. With operations against Israel by terrorists on the increase, and co-operation against terrorism with Palestinians non-existent, Israel can hardly be accused of Nazi tactics though, when it targets those who make clear that no atrocity against Israel and Jews is an atrocity too far. Imagine if the Republic of Ireland would refuse to co-operate in the arrest of the Omagh bombers who were living openly in Dublin, and who were planning and executing Omagh bombs on a weekly basis across the United Kingdom. Would we accuse Tony Blair of being a Nazi if he had them assassinated? I think we would applaud him.


The ultimate accusation, the one that accuses Israel of being an expansionist, nationalistic, occupying power, like the Nazi Germany that expanded it's territory across Europe like a cancer, is the most unjustified lie of all. Israel agreed to a division of its historic birthright - the Biblical Land of Israel - when it welcomed the UN Partition Plan of November 1947.


Since then it has been willing to offer 'Land for Peace' on numerous occasions only to have this rejected by Arab intransigence, with the exception of Egypt that agreed to peace in 1978 after accepting the entire Sinai in return. This 'land for peace' agreement included the dismantling of Israeli settlement towns. But 'land for peace' means just that - land vacated by Israel in exchange for the end of violence and terrorism.


It can hardly mean that Israel gives up the only bargaining tool it has - land - in exchange for increased violence and even more atrocities against its civilians. And if Israel moves back into land already given up in order to locate those who are violating their agreements they can hardly be accused of either being expansionist or of violating the agreements themselves.


Anyone who allows a Jew or an Israeli to be compared to Hitler and the Nazis is guilty of gross misinterpretation at best, and at worst of being a Jew hater of the worst kind.

[vmarks]

Originally posted by rezonate:
It's not like we tolerate Ku Klux Klan type monkeys running around with sheets on their heads. I'd love to see a report on racism, and anti-Semitism in the US ,you'd be amazed at what will come out.

Fact is, in both Europe and the US, many people have strong anti-Semitic views. Europe seems to be moving away from that at a far greater rate than the US, where xonophobic, and a very slanted world view is firmly entrenched.

Actually, I linked to such a study on the US. Here it is again.

2002
and here's Canada too.

[RooneyX]

Originally posted by gadster:
Israelis treating Palestinians nowadays is looking more and more like Nazis treating Jews. .

I disagree.

Short history of the region.

That land was and is the homeland of Jewish culture. Every culture should have it's homeland.

The Egyptians came and conquered. The Assyrians came and did the same adding looting and rape to the mix. The Chaldeans did the same. The Persians came along, and then the Romans. After being oppressed by so many empires the Jews developed a hatred for oppression and believed someone would come to save them.

Arabs, Egyptians and Jews sided together against the Romans. Many claimed to be a messiah, a king who would liberate them. But the Romans killed them all and destroyed the Temple of Jerusalem.

But terrorism and rebellion against Rome continued. The Romans got fed up. They destroyed secularism and created a new religion based on all the myths and cults that were followed throughout their empire thinking it would unite everyone. They were wrong.

The Jews and Arabs still resisted. Then when Roman power became weakened the Arabs revolted en masse and raised an army to capture the middle east, Asia and North Africa. They formed an empire of their own with a new religion, also based on the old stuff, to unite the conquered against the Romans. But Jews and Hindus resisted. Now the Arabs were acting like the Romans themselves.

Centuries passed. The Muslims and the Christians spilled tons of blood. The Romans had long gone but new European empires rose, like the British.

The British ruled the middle-east and promised to return Jews home. But by now Arab racism and hate against non-Muslims was great and the Arabs resisted the creation and existence of Israel.

And now for almost 60 years Jews and Arabs, both of whom used to be arm in arm against oppression, have been fighting over land because Islam doesn't like to give an inch of land away. Doesn't all land belong to God anyway regardless of who owns it?

And in the rest of Asia the same thing continues. Hindus were evicted from Pakistan and Afghanistan. Islam won't live with Hindus in Kashmir either. Muslims in India however have tasted success by embracing India's natural secular mentality. The oldest synagogue in Asia is also in India as are some of the oldest Christian cults. Live and let live and be united.

And this is what needs to happen in Israel and Palestine. The rightwing Christians in America and the terror supporting Saudi and Iranian regime have to stop using Israelis and Palestinians as pawns in a political game. Jews and Arabs must unite and form one single secular country with a secular education, equal rights and democracy. Israel and Palestine can only work if they both live as one people in one country with Jerusalem as its capital. It will then be a beacon of light to the whole region.

But first things first. Arabs have to stop thinking Allah, the invisible dictator, is talking to them or gives a crap about politics or religion. Human life is all that matters, not mythology.

[FeLiZeCaT]

"Prime Minister Jean Chretien reacted by stating that: “Such words are not acceptable in Canadian society.”

And I am glad he did say that.

It is also a good thing that there are such organizations that investigate such situations as anti-semitism.

At some point, more needs to be done for all types of discriminatory behaviors.

It is time we be done with puting people in small boxes. (restrictive categories).

[FeLiZeCaT]

quoted from RooneyX:
Human life is all that matters, not mythology.
________________________



But it will be difficult to separate these 2...

[RooneyX]

German Students Protesting

[Logic]

Originally posted by vmarks:
emember, Nazis were the ones who turned people into soap and lampshades, who ripped out gold fillings to melt into jewelry, and who experimented on twins by injecting urine into their bloodstream (Mengele.)

Yes, that was a terrible thing indeed. But many of us actually hold this idea, that probably sounds weird to you, that accepting civilian casualties and the murder of civilians not acceptable. Doesn't matter why you do it, because accepting the fact that civilians will be killed is just as barbaric as making soap of the corpses and other shite the nazis did. And notice that he said it looks more and more like what the Nazis did, not that it was exactly like. There is a difference.

What about English colonists and Native American Indians? What about China and Tibet? What about Iraq and Kurdistan? But no- you jump right for the most offensive and inaccurate thing you can think of- the 'Israelis are Nazis' canard.

So what's the difference between the Iraqi and Kurds incidents and the Nazi one? Are Kurds not as "valuable" as Jews in your opinion? We could find similarities in all of the above but the saddest thing is that creating ghettos, willingly killing innocent civilians, expanding ones territory based on some belief system, and denying people basic human rights were all things Nazi germany did. And now(on a smaller scale) history is repeating itself. And also note that the supporters of Israel and zionists do not hesitate to label people as anti-Semites if they find something critical of Israel's policies. After that has become the standard for the pro-Israeli crowd one could claim that it is just OK for "the other side" to take up similar tactics.

The spurious argument goes that the military might of Israel, comparable to the militaristic Nazi war machine, is directed against a beleaguered Palestinian population who live in sprawling shantytown refugee camps. Military restrictions mean that the average Palestinian is confined to his town or village, like Jews confined were to ghettos, and that Israeli soldiers at checkpoints humiliate them in the same way that the SS humiliated Jews. Israel, the superior enemy, targets and kills Palestinians, just as the Nazis preyed on powerless Jews during the Holocaust. Israeli oppression and the occupation of the West Bank parallel the aggressively executed expansionist policies of Hitler's regime, and are a nationalist anachronism in the post-modern, twenty-first century world.

And what is the difference? All these things mentioned above are true.

The trouble is that the accusations don't match the facts, and the inhuman crimes of the Nazis are hardly similar to the actions of Israel against the Palestinians. In fact, there is nothing more sick then a vile lie that in some kind of warped way gets the western world off the hook for having stood by whilst six million Jews were slaughtered across Europe between 1939 and 1945. 'It was a terrible crime, but the Jews are no better,' is possibly the most disgusting aspect of this unacceptable comparison.

Wow, you're not holding back at all right now. Stood by while millions of Jews were murdered? Sorry but most of Europe was in an all out war with tens of millions of causalities so there was little we could do except to try to end the war as soon as possible. Once again you make the claim that we were just happy to see that millions were being slaughtered. That is perhaps the sickest lie in all of this rant of yours and your more rampant pro-Israelis. And one thing is certain, you will never be able to Pavlov me into believing that my ancestors and that other Europeans should feel guilty of what happened between 1939-1945. We have learned the lesson. We have learned that all human life is and should be treated equal. No more ghettos, no more accepting civilians casualties, that is what we will remember. Your whole "you should be guilty you anti-semitic Europeans and let us do whatever we feel like" argument will hopefully never work.

Simply, because no Jew wants the Palestinians to suffer. Because no Israeli has as his ultimate objective the obliteration of Arabs and Muslims from the face of this Earth. Because what every Jew and certainly every Israeli would like, is for Jew and Arab to live side by side in peace and tranquility. Because what every Jew resents is the fact that Israel can only exist because of military might, and that its survival depends on it.

No Jew? See here we can see the biggest difference between you and me. I know that anti-semitism and racism exists in Europe and I do my best to teach those I know tolerance and not to hate others. You on the other hand teach that Jews are saints that have never done anything wrong. You seem to believe that Sharon is a saint you would never want Palestinians to suffer and that he is some sort of a very noble man. Nothing could be further from the truth. Do you want me to dig up some quotes from him? Do you want me to find articles about Sabra and Shatilla? I won't because I know I will be labeled an anti-semite for reminding you of what the man Israelis elected has done in his past.

The Zionism is Nazism accusation is without foundation, superficial and twisted. No Jew has ever herded any Palestinian into a refugee camp, recently or in the past.

What kind of twisted reality do you live in?? Why do most Palestinians live in refugee camps then? Did they choose to live there? And you accuse the Palestinians of brainwashing their population......

I don't hear pro-Palestinians referring to Egypt's Nasser as a Nazi for allowing inhuman conditions to flourish in Gaza's disgraceful, ghetto like refugee camps.

What are you talking about?? Are you now blaming Egypt for the Gazastrip problem? What? I'm sorry but I must have missed all the reports on Egyptian troops setting up roadblocks and demolishing houses. Perhaps you could refresh my memory on this.

The targeted killings of Palestinian terrorist kingpins are undoubtedly the ugly side of a difficult war

Targeted killings with civilians casualties accepted. Not only accepted but the "targeted killing" that doesn't allow the accused to defend himself in a court of justice are preferably done when they are on crowded streets to ensure "collateral" damage is maximum. There is nothing more disgusting than killing another human being and accepting that several other innocents will die as a result of the "surgical" strike. I wonder if you would be happy with going to the doctor to have your tonsils removed to later wake up and find out that he amputated an arm and a leg as well.

Would we accuse Tony Blair of being a Nazi if he had them assassinated? I think we would applaud him.

Here we have the perfect example of the difference between the civilized world and a large chunk of the pro-Israeli crowd. We in the civilized world do not applaud the slaughter of people. Most of the civilized world is against the death penalty even if those who are slaughtered there have gotten a "fair" trial. You on the other hand applaud the slaughter of people who never got their chance to defend themselves in a court of justice. You on the other hand applaud the slaughter of innocent civilians as long as one "terrorist" is killed as well.

Israel agreed to a division of its historic birthright - the Biblical Land of Israel - when it welcomed the UN Partition Plan of November 1947.

THE BIBLE SHOULDN'T BE ACCEPTED AS A DOCUMENT THAT PROVES THE "HISTORIC BIRTHRIGHT"!!! Who wrote the old testament? JEWS!

Do you believe that Icelanders have the right to claim back the land we fled in Scandinavia and Great Britain? Do you think that the indians should get back the control of all of the USA? Do you think that African-American should have the right to return to Africa and claim a large part of Africa for their own? If the Bible is your "strongest" case for being allowed to create Israel your case isn't even worth listening to.

It can hardly mean that Israel gives up the only bargaining tool it has - land - in exchange for increased violence and even more atrocities against its civilians

Land that was occupied in wars! Is Germany in control of all of Europe? Did the Allies keep Europe for their own? NO! The returned the land to those who own it, the people. That is something Israel cannot claim to do. You are bargaining with other peoples land, not yours!

Anyone who allows a Jew or an Israeli to be compared to Hitler and the Nazis is guilty of gross misinterpretation at best, and at worst of being a Jew hater of the worst kind.

And there we have the typical "Shut up or I label you an anti-semite". You could have put that at the beginning of your post and thereby making sure people wouldn't have to read through that drivel of yours.....

[RooneyX]

I'd like to see the Native Americans in the White House. It would be good for world peace. I'd gladly take the peace pipe with them.

[Developer]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
German Students Protesting

Not against war or anti-semitism, so I don't see how that's on topic.

[theolein]

I am really reluctant to get involved in a thread started by the lunatic claiming that Steve Jobs should be checked out for being a terrorist because he has middle eastern roots. If that isn't anti-semitic and clearly similar in approach to what the nazis did, then I just don't know anymore.

In plain text: dhinkel - you are a Nazi in your attitudes. Sieg Heil.

That said, it is obvious that this thread would devolve into the usual America-Europe trashing, one-upping and moral accusations that are part and parcel of communication between the American right and the European left.

Fact is, that despite the fact that I denied it vehemtly in previous times, I do see a trend across most of Europe with regards to rising intolerance of foreigners in general and muslims in particular. Not only that but as Developer said in his post, it would be ridiculous to deny that there are active neo-nazi organisations in Europe. I read the story on the BBC and was quite shocked. The organisation sounds very much like a neo-nazi brainwashing center and I am appalled that the German authorities didn't bother to investigate it properly.

I am personally worried by the wave of intolerance washing over Europe. The French headscarf ban, although theoretically applying to all religious symbolism in schools, is a worrying thing. The fact that other countries, such as Germany, Belgium, Denmark and Holland, are also considering such laws is especially worrying. I think that it is a backlash against years of enforced legal political multiculturalism more than anything else, but it also shows that Europeans are less tolerant of customs that diverge from the norm than they used to be. It is also probably a reaction to the wave of terrorism that has been happening over recent years, and Muslims are obviously being targeted for their insularity and general failure to integrate more in European society.

It is bad. There is no denying it. Repression will not solve the problems of social integration.

I am not going to go into much detail about the US here because there is obviously a backlash against Muslims there as well. One only has to look at board members such as deadboy and Zimphire to see it.

The question, applying to both Europe and the USA as to whether Jews AND Muslims are more loyal to their religions (and, as an extension to israel and Muslim countries) than to their countries of domicile is a valid, but dangerous one. The tendency is to start witch hunts, such as more extreme lunatic fringe people, such as dhinkel, are wont to do. It has the dangerous element of degenerating into blatant nazi like persecution if left unchecked. The USA's laws about registration of people from Muslim countries and the European religious symbolism laws are oppressive and will not solve any real problems.

The validity of the question, however, is real, in that there are certainly both Jews and Muslims who feel more attached to their respective religions and countries than they do to the US or Europe, and, ironically, oppression will only make this stronger. The fact that there is a Jew in jail in the US for having passed secrets to Israel and Muslims in jail in the US and Europe for Al-Qaeda affiliation only reinforces doubts about the the loyalty of members of both religions.

But it is extremely dangerous for society in general for pursue such doubts because of the mob tendency to start looking for someone to lynch, so to speak.

I think the solution is talking to one another and attempting to arrive at compromise solutions. sadly, however, there are less people in todays polarised world who are willing to compromise.

[RooneyX]

Originally posted by Developer:
Not against war or anti-semitism, so I don't see how that's on topic.

Chill and laugh a little. You'll sound like Ayatollah or The Lightsaber of Hussein's Carcass otherwise.

[Logic]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
Chill and laugh a little. You'll sound like Ayatollah or The Lightsaber of Hussein's Carcass otherwise.

and one for theo as well

[voodoo]

for theo this time.

The German police knows full well about that institute so go easy on the 'scandalous' tone. Tolerance towards foreigners in Europe isn't bad. Depends on which country, city and district you are talking about. Stupid to make sweeping generalizations about "Europe". I thought you could entrust the right wing zealots in the US to do so. Thanks for saving them the bother Theolein.

Bah.

[theolein]

Originally posted by voodoo:
for theo this time.

The German police knows full well about that institute so go easy on the 'scandalous' tone. Tolerance towards foreigners in Europe isn't bad. Depends on which country, city and district you are talking about. Stupid to make sweeping generalizations about "Europe". I thought you could entrust the right wing zealots in the US to do so. Thanks for saving them the bother Theolein.

Bah.

That said, it is obvious that this thread would devolve into the usual America-Europe trashing, one-upping and moral accusations that are part and parcel of communication between the American right and the European left.

QED

[Dudaev's Corpse]

Originally posted by voodoo:
for theo this time.

The German police knows full well about that institute so go easy on the 'scandalous' tone. Tolerance towards foreigners in Europe isn't bad. Depends on which country, city and district you are talking about. Stupid to make sweeping generalizations about "Europe". I thought you could entrust the right wing zealots in the US to do so. Thanks for saving them the bother Theolein.

Bah.

You're just ticked because a fellow European admitted what is decidedly taboo on the continent: that you have serious problems in your society with tolerance and ill-will directed against non-whites and immigrants. You're out to silence him because revisions to your perception of reality are causing some serious cognitive dissonance.

[vmarks]

Originally posted by theolein:
I am really reluctant to get involved in a thread started by the lunatic claiming that Steve Jobs should be checked out for being a terrorist because he has middle eastern roots. If that isn't anti-semitic and clearly similar in approach to what the nazis did, then I just don't know anymore.

In plain text: dhinkel - you are a Nazi in your attitudes. Sieg Heil.

That said, it is obvious that this thread would devolve into the usual America-Europe trashing, one-upping and moral accusations that are part and parcel of communication between the American right and the European left.

Fact is, that despite the fact that I denied it vehemtly in previous times, I do see a trend across most of Europe with regards to rising intolerance of foreigners in general and muslims in particular. Not only that but as Developer said in his post, it would be ridiculous to deny that there are active neo-nazi organisations in Europe. I read the story on the BBC and was quite shocked. The organisation sounds very much like a neo-nazi brainwashing center and I am appalled that the German authorities didn't bother to investigate it properly.

I am personally worried by the wave of intolerance washing over Europe. The French headscarf ban, although theoretically applying to all religious symbolism in schools, is a worrying thing. The fact that other countries, such as Germany, Belgium, Denmark and Holland, are also considering such laws is especially worrying. I think that it is a backlash against years of enforced legal political multiculturalism more than anything else, but it also shows that Europeans are less tolerant of customs that diverge from the norm than they used to be. It is also probably a reaction to the wave of terrorism that has been happening over recent years, and Muslims are obviously being targeted for their insularity and general failure to integrate more in European society.

It is bad. There is no denying it. Repression will not solve the problems of social integration.

I am not going to go into much detail about the US here because there is obviously a backlash against Muslims there as well. One only has to look at board members such as deadboy and Zimphire to see it.

The question, applying to both Europe and the USA as to whether Jews AND Muslims are more loyal to their religions (and, as an extension to israel and Muslim countries) than to their countries of domicile is a valid, but dangerous one. The tendency is to start witch hunts, such as more extreme lunatic fringe people, such as dhinkel, are wont to do. It has the dangerous element of degenerating into blatant nazi like persecution if left unchecked. The USA's laws about registration of people from Muslim countries and the European religious symbolism laws are oppressive and will not solve any real problems.

The validity of the question, however, is real, in that there are certainly both Jews and Muslims who feel more attached to their respective religions and countries than they do to the US or Europe, and, ironically, oppression will only make this stronger. The fact that there is a Jew in jail in the US for having passed secrets to Israel and Muslims in jail in the US and Europe for Al-Qaeda affiliation only reinforces doubts about the the loyalty of members of both religions.

But it is extremely dangerous for society in general for pursue such doubts because of the mob tendency to start looking for someone to lynch, so to speak.

I think the solution is talking to one another and attempting to arrive at compromise solutions. sadly, however, there are less people in todays polarised world who are willing to compromise.

A reasonable post. Thank you. Shame on others for giving you the 'thumbs down' because of it.

[RooneyX]

The French are over-reacting by banning religious symbols but unless you have first hand experience of how Islamic fundamentalism is increasing in Europe then you can't really understand their motives. They are growing fast, teaching their communities to expand and to preach Islam - not a moderate but literal version. In England this has resulted in violent backlashes and riots in places. Put it this way, when Islamists are openly saying they want to expand, taking advantage of freedom of speech and living off the welfare system yet hating the people of their host nation then the reaction is an increase in hate back towards them - such as the BNP winning local elections in England or the rise of Le Pen in France (which was bravely shouted down by the French Secularists).

The rise of European rightwingers against Islamists results in hate towards other ethnic groups. Maybe the Islamists want it. Hard to tell. The Kuffar rap video speaks volumes for their ambitions.

But is the solution of banning symbols right? No. Otherwise those communities become isolated and more fanatical. And Jews, Hindus and Sikhs never try to spread their creeds outside their families and are very secular so why should they feel the sting?

The solution should simply be a stringent and passionate Secular Humanist education. Europe has that already of course but Muslim children have to be welcomed more into the modern world with embracing arms and teachers who care. Then it doesn't matter what symbols people wear, education will look after them.

But perhaps the French are worried that even education can't cure the fundamentalist mind. Certainly if we look at how some education boards, in Europe and the US (especially), have tried to tinker with the curriculum to remove such things as evolution, then the French have a right to be worried. But what they are doing should only be seen as a last resort after all other methods have failed and even open debate can't heal sick minds.

[theolein]

Originally posted by Dudaev's Corpse:
You're just ticked because a fellow European admitted what is decidedly taboo on the continent: that you have serious problems in your society with tolerance and ill-will directed against non-whites and immigrants. You're out to silence him because revisions to your perception of reality are causing some serious cognitive dissonance.

I am not going to go into much detail about the US here because there is obviously a backlash against Muslims there as well. One only has to look at board members such as deadboy and Zimphire to see it.

QED

[Logic]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
They are growing fast, teaching their communities to expand and to preach Islam - not a moderate but literal version.

What is wrong with the literal version?

Certainly if we look at how some education boards, in Europe and the US (especially), have tried to tinker with the curriculum to remove such things as evolution, then the French have a right to be worried.

Never heard that about Europe. Could you point me to something about that?

[RooneyX]

Originally posted by Logic:
What is wrong with the literal version?

Never heard that about Europe. Could you point me to something about that?

There was one community of Christian literalists in England who were trying to tinker with the curriculum about five years ago and were active in the Tory party. I'll try to find it.

[Logic]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
There was one community of Christian literalists in England who were trying to tinker with the curriculum about five years ago and were active in the Tory party. I'll try to find it.

thanks

but you forgot the first question

[RooneyX]

Originally posted by Logic:
thanks

but you forgot the first question

That's because I was gobsmacked and couldn't type.