[RooneyX]

This here is an important article about early copies of the Koran found in Yemen.

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99jan/koran.htm

quote: The Koran is a scripture with a history like any other -- except that we don't know this history and tend to provoke howls of protest when we study it.

[lil'babykitten]

Does this not belong in the other thread?

[RooneyX]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Does this not belong in the other thread?

No. Read the article and address them rather than the points raised elsewhere about science and intolerance.

[Logic]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
No. Read the article and address them rather than the points raised elsewhere about science and intolerance.

Why doesn't it belong in the other thread?

[RooneyX]

Oh come on. Discuss instead of 'hijacking'.

[Developer]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
Oh come on. Discuss instead of 'hijacking'.

You need to acknowledge that they kind of prove a point made in the article.

[eklipse]

?

[voodoo]

Wow! Copies of the Koran from 750 AD!

Most intriguing!

[BlackGriffen]

Originally posted by Logic:
Why doesn't it belong in the other thread?

If anything, the other thread belongs in this one. This thread is more broadly about the historical origins of Islam and the Qur'an. That thread is an attempt to bring out specific examples of problematic text within the Qur'an.

Logically, that is a subset of this.

BlackGriffen

[Fanatic]

Originally posted by BlackGriffen:
Logically, that is a subset of this.

Yes, but chronologically, that came before this

[Face Ache]

Threads devolve fast these days.

[swrate]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
This here is an important article about early copies of the Koran found in Yemen.

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99jan/koran.htm

quote: The Koran is a scripture with a history like any other -- except that we don't know this history and tend to provoke howls of protest when we study it.

yes, Havent read the thread yet....

"Since the early 1980s more than 15,000 sheets of the Yemeni Korans have painstakingly been flattened, cleaned, treated, sorted, and assembled; they now sit ("preserved for another thousand years," Puin says) in Yemen's House of Manuscripts, awaiting detailed examination. That is something the Yemeni authorities have seemed reluctant to allow, "


same story with the dead sea scrolls, who could add a new light on the Bible and probably the Thorah too.

[RooneyX]

Originally posted by swrate:

same story with the dead sea scrolls, who could add a new light on the Bible and probably the Thorah too.

I see what you're doing. It's the tit4tat game.

The arguments against the Biblical texts and their context in history are old now. Christianity has been under the scientific lense for over a hundred years. Read Thompsons 'The Bible In History : How Writers Invent The Past'.

Also, Israel's Universities teach that large parts of the Torah are fictional with little basis in history - no Moses, no David, no Solomon. Jewish culture modernized a LONG time ago and many of the greatest modern Jewish thinkers and scientists have been anti-Biblical and even completely atheistic, yet noble men nevertheless.

It's possible Muslim society asks itself 'Without Islam we will be without morals and lose our identity.' This is not the case. Arab culture is very rich in poetry, music, dance, food, etc and there are many areas they will one day be able to prove their skills in.

[thunderous_funker]

Great read. Lots of new and interesting information there. I now have a good research project for this week.

Thanks very much for the post.

[swrate]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
I see what you're doing. It's the tit4tat game.

The arguments against the Biblical texts and their context in history are old now. Christianity has been under the scientific lense for over a hundred years. Read Thompsons 'The Bible In History : How Writers Invent The Past'.

Also, Israel's Universities teach that large parts of the Torah are fictional with little basis in history - no Moses, no David, no Solomon. Jewish culture modernized a LONG time ago and many of the greatest modern Jewish thinkers and scientists have been anti-Biblical and even completely atheistic, yet noble men nevertheless.

It's possible Muslim society asks itself 'Without Islam we will be without morals and lose our identity.' This is not the case. Arab culture is very rich in poetry, music, dance, food, etc and there are many areas they will one day be able to prove their skills in.

you should not be susceptible.

the article is very interesting and I stoped a few times,
thanks for reference may use


Nothing is determined, many texts have yet to be translated, laying in Chicago's and other Universities . I can also give you names of works to read, each scholar usually has his opinion.
It is a problem, scientists dont agree with archeologists who dont agree with "church" (whatever side)

In a religious context, Moses is present in the Torah Dr.4.44 "This is the Torah, Moshe reveals to the Beni-Israel"
This is in fact a ritual, verses said while the rolls are lifted up.

A part from that, great!
Scientists should not base their facts on the scriptures only,
there is deformations, not always mention of time, place, exagerations, so its very hard in reality to find out whether this town was Jericho or another and if yes 10 000 or 100 000 were killed in so and so war, also some names (kings) were erased intentionally, and that is a very interesting part to study.

Arabs have already proved their skills in more then one domain.
They are the ones who brought algebra, astronomy, paper to Europe.(I am sure you can add to the list)

[voodoo]

chemistry, arabic numbers (0, 1 ,2 etc).. many amazing things.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by swrate:
Arabs have already proved their skills in more then one domain.
They are the ones who brought algebra, astronomy, paper to Europe.(I am sure you can add to the list)

What I find most interesting from the article is the suggestion that the Arab world's greatest periods of artistic, literary and scientific advancement correspond to periods of philosphical diversity and openness.

It would seem that Orthodoxy brought on a "Dark Ages" for Muslims, just as it had done for Christians earlier.

[RooneyX]

Not so. The whole story of Moses and the exodus doesn't fit in with any historical period. Some have tried deliberately to fit it in, David Rohl for example tried to mess with Egyptian and Mesopotamian chronological history to make the story historical. It didn't work.

Same with David and Solomon. The stories of them seem to be later versions of historical Egyptian kings who ruled over Canaan. But as historical Israelite kings they don't fit in any period and there is no mention of them in any records outside the Torah. The Torah itself was written during Persian rule and seems to fit in with Persian ideology. In fact, Israeli archaeologists who have excavated sites such as Tel-Rehov have found that Jewish monotheism didn't begin until around 500BCE and that during the period in which the ancient kingdom of David and Solomon was supposed to have existed, there was no Israelite empire and neither was Judaism monotheistic. Jehovah (Yahu) was not the sole deity worshipped and had a consort, Asherah - a fertility goddess.

Asherah herself gave birth to Adon via Christ-like immaculate conception. The story of his birth is closer to that of the birth of Jesus in the Koran than the Gospel of Matthew (under a tree in the wilderness and not in a manger in Bethlehem. The Buddha also has the same birth story). And amongst Yahu's rivals were Baal and El (who was above Yahu in the pantheon). And Israelite idols have also been found.

This of course has knock on effects. Islam would have to acknowledge the Koran's beliefs that those Jewish stories are historical is problematic. Mythology is always recycled in the ancient world and new cults come into being.

It would be a tremendous unifying force for all the warring cultures of Asia to acknowledge that. Take a look at Allah. He has 99 names but no images. In India God is manifested as many images (because there was no taboo against idols). Yet we still find many names of Allah are equivalent with names of Indian deities. For example:

Arabic 'Al-Bari' with Sanskrit 'Brahma'. Both mean 'creator'.

Arabic 'Al-Wasi' with Sanskrit 'Vishnu'. Both mean 'All-encompassing'.

They all share so much when the myths aren't taken literally or historically.

[RooneyX]

Originally posted by voodoo:
chemistry, arabic numbers (0, 1 ,2 etc).. many amazing things.

Sanskrit numbers actually, the Arabs were just the middlemen. In fact the Sanskrit numerals look far closer to what we write now than the Arabic ones.

[zigzag]

Originally posted by voodoo:
chemistry, arabic numbers (0, 1 ,2 etc).. many amazing things.

I never liked the number 3, though. I think they really blew it on that one. And I think 7 should have come before 6. Other than that I'm quite pleased.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
What I find most interesting from the article is the suggestion that the Arab world's greatest periods of artistic, literary and scientific advancement correspond to periods of philosphical diversity and openness.

It would seem that Orthodoxy brought on a "Dark Ages" for Muslims, just as it had done for Christians earlier.

Nákvæmlega! (exactly)

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by zigzag:
I never liked the number 3, though.

Heretic!!!

3 is a magic number, yes it is, it's a magic number
Somewhere in that ancient mystic trinity
You get 3 as a magic number
The past, and the present, and the future
Faith, and hope, and charity
The heart, and the brain, and the body
Will give you 3, that's a magic number

It takes three legs to make a tripod or
To make a table stand
It takes three wheels to make a vehicle
Called a tricycle
And every triangle has three corners
Every triangle has three sides
No more, no less, you don't have to guess
Now this three, can you see? It's a magic number

1-A man and a woman had a little baby, yes they did
They were three in the family, that's a magic number

3 6 9 12 15 18 21 24 27 30

3 6 9 12 15 18 21 24 27 30

Now multiply backwards from 3 times 10

2-Three times ten is 30, three times nine is 27
Three times eight is 24, three times seven is 21
Three times six is 18, three times 5 is 15
Three times 4 is 12, and three times 3 is 9
Three times 2 is 6, and three times 1 is 3, of course

Now think the pattern once more
3 6 9 12 15 18 21 24 27 30

(repeat 2, 1)


P.S. If anyone hasn't heard the Blind Melon cover of this song, run do not walk out and get it.

[zigzag]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
Heretic!!!

But you have to admit - it's an odd number.

Actually, it's not the underlying concept of 3 that I object to, it's the depiction. It just looks so 3rd century.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by zigzag:
But you have to admit - it's an odd number.

Actually, it's not the underlying concept of 3 that I object to, it's the depiction. It just looks so 3rd century.

BLASPHEMER!!

Your'e only making it worse on yourself, you know....[/monty python]

[RooneyX]

Nobody expects the Inquisition!

[Dudaev's Corpse]

what the heck is this thread about? It lacks focus.

[khufuu]

Originally posted by Dudaev's Corpse:
what the heck is this thread about? It lacks focus.

The topic seems to be that this thread should be in a different forum....

[swrate]

A story “out of chronology” doesn't mean it did not happen. Finding evidence Moses lived between 1350 BC and 1150 BC, is a difficult task: public figures with lots of influence tend to become myths, and, –nothing new- events who don’t suit the governments are frequently concealed. Never the less, Moses is the prophet mentioned the most often in the Koran and holds a large part in the Bible, OT and NT.

How do you know 100% sure that Kings, such as Amenhetep lV, well known monotheist was not inspired by Judaïsm? (I was thinking about him when I mentioned names being erased, it occurred frequently that the successor would wipe away any mention of a predecessor with different religious or political outlook then his own. We still have a lot to find out. No evidence does not mean ,,,,no it never existed, same as for WMD in 2004!? Should “classified” myths mean no more research? The Torah is a compilation of many texts from many scribes, some before some after the Persian empire.

Theories “ought” to match the Bibles events, but taboos disable hypotheses. Denying it all when in Megiddo the ruins of the temple of Salomon have a good possibility to be really his, (Yadin) is also imo biased. In all theories, there are the pros and cons.

The papyri letters of Elephantine attest of the existence of Jewish colonies, from 500 BC; at that time rituals were well set,: Easter celebrations, circumcision, Shabbat, Yom Kippour, food,.. so it is clear, at least to me, that the foundations of the Judaism was by then well established.

We cannot prove existence of personalities mentioned in the Bible, and Torah I agree with you, but I resent Moses has nothing to do with the Torah.

Greeks Romans Egyptians Ethiopians Assyrians independently mention the Exodus, the plagues, and many philosophers, historians, were fan of Ish ha Elohims, the leader of the Beni Israel. So there is more then a chance that something did happen. The existence of Shasw’s from Yhwa’s mountain is attested in Soleb (around 1350BC) and on the stelae of year 400 of Merenptah (around 1200 BC)

The worshipping of Baal and Ishtar was very present, as you said, mythology has loads of stories, trinity type, Gods names change and their attributes adjust for the needs of the populations. A fertility deity has a new aspect depending on the nature of the ground, the climate …. the population and the needs of the leaders. Religions did follow real gurus, imams so why could Moses not of been a real person?

[BlackGriffen]

Originally posted by swrate:

How do you know 100% sure that Kings, such as Amenhetep lV, well known monotheist was not inspired by Judaïsm?

Two words: archaeological evidence. Lots of buildings inscribed with the symbols, art (including the famous bust of Nefertiti), and an entire dead city founded for the purpose of being a center of worship for the sun god Amenhetep IV worshiped (Karnak, IIRC, but I may not).

There was probably also some documentary evidence found in his son's tomb (King Tut).

BlackGriffen

[RooneyX]

Originally posted by swrate:
A story “out of chronology” doesn't mean it did not happen. Finding evidence Moses lived between 1350 BC and 1150 BC, is a difficult task: public figures with lots of influence tend to become myths, and, –nothing new- events who don’t suit the governments are frequently concealed. Never the less, Moses is the prophet mentioned the most often in the Koran and holds a large part in the Bible, OT and NT.

How do you know 100% sure that Kings, such as Amenhetep lV, well known monotheist was not inspired by Judaïsm? (I was thinking about him when I mentioned names being erased, it occurred frequently that the successor would wipe away any mention of a predecessor with different religious or political outlook then his own. We still have a lot to find out. No evidence does not mean ,,,,no it never existed, same as for WMD in 2004!? Should “classified” myths mean no more research? The Torah is a compilation of many texts from many scribes, some before some after the Persian empire.

Theories “ought” to match the Bibles events, but taboos disable hypotheses. Denying it all when in Megiddo the ruins of the temple of Salomon have a good possibility to be really his, (Yadin) is also imo biased. In all theories, there are the pros and cons.

The papyri letters of Elephantine attest of the existence of Jewish colonies, from 500 BC; at that time rituals were well set,: Easter celebrations, circumcision, Shabbat, Yom Kippour, food,.. so it is clear, at least to me, that the foundations of the Judaism was by then well established.

We cannot prove existence of personalities mentioned in the Bible, and Torah I agree with you, but I resent Moses has nothing to do with the Torah.

Greeks Romans Egyptians Ethiopians Assyrians independently mention the Exodus, the plagues, and many philosophers, historians, were fan of Ish ha Elohims, the leader of the Beni Israel. So there is more then a chance that something did happen. The existence of Shasw’s from Yhwa’s mountain is attested in Soleb (around 1350BC) and on the stelae of year 400 of Merenptah (around 1200 BC)

History is well recorded enough to know that the story of Moses is an impossiblity (much of it is extremely similar to popular myths of the time 'The birth story of King Sargon', 'The Legend of Sinuhe' and the Revelations to and law code of Hammurabi from the sungod and also Nebuchadnezzar (btw, Nebuchadnezzar claimed to be born of a virgin and that Nabu placed him in his mother's womb). The Israelite invasion of Canaan is an impossibility. The ancient kingdom of Israel of David and Solomon is an impossiblity.

The Egyptians were not 'monotheists' as you call them and neither was Judaism until roughly 550BCE. Judaism could not have had any influence of ancient Egyptian beliefs primarily because what we call Judaism today did not exist until the same date. What people think of as Egyptian monotheism 'Atenism' is based on some badly researched work that has become popular modern myth. Aten replaced Amen for a while in very few places but the rest of the Egyptian pantheon remained untouched. Aten and Amen were both sungods nevertheless.

Greeks could not have mentioned an exodus because there are no Greek records from the time it was supposed to have happened. The Egyptians mention 'apiru' which some have compared to 'Hebrew' and indeed Apiru did ravage Canaanite cities. But from reading the Amarna Letters, correspondence between kings and mayors at the time, the Apiru were indigenous warriors trying to kick the Egyptians and puppet leaders out of Canaan and they had Hittite support. This is very different to the Biblical version.

The Assyrians don't mention an exodus of Israelites from Egypt and neither do the Egyptians or Ethiopians as you claim. The Merneptah Stele contradicts the Bible completely. It mentions 'ysr-r' (There's no L in Ancient Egyptian' as a small tribe who are utterly destroyed and whose 'seed is no more'.

Yes, there are mentions of Yahu/Jehovah during that time but that's because he was part of the Canaanite and Ugaritic pantheon and there were also temples devoted to him in Arabia and Egypt. But again, he's part of a pantheon and not even the chief deity. Images of him are exactly like those of Vishnu in India - a sea deity wrapped in serpents.

Moses did not have anything to do with the Torah simply because the texts were not written until after 550BCE at the earliest and are written in a dialect that did not exist 500-700 years earlier. It's Aramaic and Hebrew is very different to the Canaanite, Ugaritic and Aramaen (which wasn't even established in Canaan until around 800 BCE) dialects of the time that Moses is said to have existed.

Of course there were Jews in Elephantine around 500BCE. They even had a temple there. But that's far later than the period we are talking about. But easter, sabbath and circumcision were not uniquely Judaean either. The passover was seen as the beginning of the harvest season in Egypt and Mesopotamia. Sabbath was observed in Babylon as 'sabatu' and circumcision was performed by Egyptians and other east Africans (the Masai Mara of Kenya still perform it within their own religion).

As for the ruins of Solomon's Temple, leading Israeli archaeologists have said it could not possibly date back to Solomon and have said that the foundations were built by Omri. Remember, these are Israelis saying this. Google Ze'ev Herzog for a quick start.

[RooneyX]

Here's a link to compliment my previous post. I don't want Muslims alone to think they are the only ones whose religion is not completely historical or the word of God. The problems of the Torah's origins of course have profound implications for Christianity and Islam though.

http://www.library.cornell.edu/colld...st/jerques.htm

[swrate]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
History is well recorded enough to know that the story of Moses is an impossiblity (much of it is extremely similar to popular myths of the time 'The birth story of King Sargon', 'The Legend of Sinuhe' and the Revelations of Sargon and also Nebuchadnezzar (btw, Nebuchadnezzar claimed to be born of a virgin and that Nabu placed him in his mother's womb). The Israelite invasion of Canaan is an impossibility. The ancient kingdom of Israel of David and Solomon is an impossiblity.[QUOTE]

yes. Many stories are similar. the birth of Moses. the myth but those 365 laws, you cannot, whether by Neb Nabi, the ten final commandments were also from a strong current, they were politicians at the time with strong convictions and morals. Those times were barbaric, full of tragic poesy, surviving was not the same then.
I dont know, history is so compicated.

[QUOTE]The Egyptians were not 'monotheists' as you call them and neither was Judaism until roughly 550BCE. Judaism could not have had any influence of ancient Egyptian beliefs primarily because what we call Judaism today did not exist until the same date. What people think of as Egyptian monotheism 'Atenism' is based on some badly researched work that has become popular modern myth. Aten replaced Amen for a while in very few places but the rest of the Egyptian pantheon remained untouched. Aten and Amen were both sungods nevertheless.[QUOTE]

Me? where did I say Egyptians were monotheists?
Certainly not.
Ask Sekhmet
I know Judaism was not....strict. That is why many were not able to return.
Ok, go to the temple of Petosiris, Middle-Egypt, it is in a star war type site, desert, dunes, the temple was closed since 44 .
I had wanted to visit it since ages -i was looking for a specific detail- and each time I went, I asked them, when can I visit it?
I was thrilled to discover the funerary temple of Petosiris, colours still beautiful. All the life in a film, a cartoon
many inscriptions, well carved, well outlayed, in perfect state
You can see drawings of it in Lefebvre's book about Petosiris.
You can clearly see the influence of Judaism.

Yes, a short episode of history,
you see there is still no real official translation for "Itn"
people still arguing on that


[QUOTE]Greeks could not have mentioned an exodus because there are no Greek records from the time it was supposed to have happened. The Egyptians mention 'apiru' which some have compared to 'Hebrew' and indeed Apiru did ravage Canaanite cities. But from reading the Amarna Letters, correspondence between kings and mayors at the time, the Apiru were indigenous warriors trying to kick the Egyptians and puppet leaders out of Canaan and they had Hittite support. This is very different to the Biblical version.[QUOTE]

well maybe not the way you imagined it.
Tacite's interpretation was Jews came from the mountain Ida. Refugies exhiled out of Crète. Yes, mercenaries. The alliances changed all the time.


[QUOTE]The Assyrians don't mention an exodus of Israelites from Egypt and neither do the Egyptians or Ethiopians as you claim. The Merneptah Stele contradicts the Bible completely. It mentions 'ysr-r' (There's no L in Ancient Egyptian' as a small tribe who are utterly destroyed and whose 'seed is no more'.[QUOTE]

Out of notes: maybe more recent then imagined, Pompée from Damascus,
dated 132 BC his interpretation resembles the Bible.
10 princes, brothers of Juda, Joseph, are these reliable sources? lol

[QUOTE]Yes, there are mentions of Yahu/Jehovah during that time but that's because he was part of the Canaanite and Ugaritic pantheon and there were also temples devoted to him in Arabia and Egypt. But again, he's part of a pantheon and not even the chief deity. Images of him are exactly like those of Vishnu in India - a sea deity wrapped in serpents.[QUOTE]


interesting, don't you think?

[QUOTE]Moses did not have anything to do with the Torah simply because the texts were not written until after 550BCE at the earliest and are written in a dialect that did not exist 500-700 years earlier. It's Aramaic and Hebrew is very different to the Canaanite, Ugaritic and Aramaen (which wasn't even established in Canaan until around 800 BCE) dialects of the time that Moses is said to have existed.

I said I think it was a compilation.....
How could you keep papyri 800 years? Write on stone on clay, but you know they will build/use behind. How much did we recuperate? Not much. Alexandria burning was another tragedy

Of course there were Jews in Elephantine around 500BCE. They even had a temple there. But that's far later than the period we are talking about. But easter, sabbath and circumcision were not uniquely Judaean either. The passover was seen as the beginning of the harvest season in Egypt and Mesopotamia. Sabbath was observed in Babylon as 'sabatu' and circumcision was performed by Egyptians and other east Africans (the Masai Mara of Kenya still perform it within their own religion).

Yes, its more then 700 year away, the rituals seemed established since a long time. Masaï Mara.... follow the thread of those where and when those ritual grew?

As for the ruins of Solomon's Temple, leading Israeli archaeologists have said it could not possibly date back to Solomon and have said that the foundations were built by Omri. Remember, these are Israelis saying this. Google Ze'ev Herzog for a quick start.

yes, its subject to controversy.
and I will visit those site, ty.

thanks for the reply.

[swrate]

yes, its subject to controversy.
and I will visit those site, ty.
J.F. Mondot wrote a good article about Megiddo in "les Cahiers Sciences et Vie" N°75 june 2003

thanks for the reply. [/B][/QUOTE]

Imho You cannot dissociate Moshe from the Torah, well established laws, nor Mwsa from the Koran. But then, I also think Buddha was a real person. <<<<<<<<<trolls

No evidence for you sorry, I could be working on it for the next 20 years. .
Many stories are similar. the birth of Moses. Oedipus complex
the myth full of tragic poesy
365 laws, "you cant" whether by Neb or Msw, the ten commandments
strong personalities.
rambling.
so much to learn even to use quotes.

[swrate]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
Here's a link to compliment my previous post. I don't want Muslims alone to think they are the only ones whose religion is not completely historical or the word of God. The problems of the Torah's origins of course have profound implications for Christianity and Islam though.

http://www.library.cornell.edu/colld...st/jerques.htm

I dont agree with many of the statements in the article, but it is interesting, from your link:
"The exodus from Egypt, the wanderings in the desert and Mount Sinai: The many Egyptian documents that we have make no mention of the Israelites' presence in Egypt and are also silent about the events of the exodus. "

the opposite:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10208b.htm

It's the first link I came across. I had a laugh when I saw the church banners!!!!

[RooneyX]

Originally posted by swrate:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10208b.htm

It's the first link I came across. I had a laugh when I saw the church banners!!!!

Tut, tut. You can't use a site like that for imperical evidence. And I have a big problem with New Adventists.

[swrate]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
Tut, tut. You can't use a site like that for imperical evidence. And I have a big problem with New Adventists.

so go to Sudan, or read the stelae in Cairo!

[RooneyX]

Originally posted by swrate:
so go to Sudan, or read the stelae in Cairo!

You don't need to. The Stele is avilable in books and online.

[saab95]

Origins of the Koran

Whatever it is, the Koran makes good material for burning in my fireplace.

[Logic]

Originally posted by saab95:
Whatever it is, the Koran makes good material for burning in my fireplace.

[RooneyX]

That was rude, Saab. No material should ever be burned regardless of what it contains. Otherwise we lose our history and understanding of the past and will end up with people rewriting history. The same things happened before. The burning of the library of Alexandria probably gave the leaders at the time a convenient opportunity to rewrite history for their own political gains. Same with Uthman destroying Koranic material he didn't agree with. Same with Hitler or McCarthites burning what they didn't agree with.

It's best said by Orwell 'He who controls the present controls the past. He who controls the past controls the future' or something like that.

[Logic]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
That was rude, Saab. No material should ever be burned regardless of what it contains. Otherwise we lose our history and understanding of the past and will end up with people rewriting history. The same things happened before. The burning of the library of Alexandria probably gave the leaders at the time a convenient opportunity to rewrite history for their own political gains. Same with Uthman destroying Koranic material he didn't agree with. Same with Hitler or McCarthites burning what they didn't agree with.

It's best said by Orwell 'He who controls the present controls the past. He who controls the past controls the future' or something like that.

We agree??!?



Good post!

[Face Ache]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
It's best said by Orwell 'He who controls the present controls the past. He who controls the past controls the future' or something like that.

It's in my sig so it must be true.

[RooneyX]

Thought I saw it somewhere recently!

[Dudaev's Corpse]

Originally posted by saab95:
Whatever it is, the Koran makes good material for burning in my fireplace.

alright, since they don't want to burn it, we can use it to wipe our arses!

[swrate]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
You don't need to. The Stele is avilable in books and online.

sure,
You boycott sites, i.e. so I am not starting a search for you.
I am sure you have all info you need,
You know there is mention of Israël on the stele.,
.

Congratulations on you having read the Tel Amarna letters
I don’t know many people who read them.

[RooneyX]

Originally posted by swrate:

You know there is mention of Israël on the stele.,
.

Congratulations on you having read the Tel Amarna letters
I don’t know many people who read them.

First of all the stele reads 'ysr-r'. It's speculation that this means Israel.

I've studied all the Amarna letters, yes. They show just how corrupt and greedy kings were and politicians today are (because their system of favors and personal enrichment hasn't changed).

[voodoo]

Originally posted by swrate:
sure,
You boycott sites, i.e. so I am not starting a search for you.
I am sure you have all info you need,
You know there is mention of Israël on the stele.,
.

Congratulations on you having read the Tel Amarna letters
I don’t know many people who read them.

Are you a religous person?

[swrate]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
First of all the stele reads 'ysr-r'. It's speculation that this means Israel.

I've studied all the Amarna letters, yes. They show just how corrupt and greedy kings were and politicians today are (because their system of favors and personal enrichment hasn't changed).

Rooney,

Great, incredible I didn’t expect to find Amarna on McNN’s political lounge, ! even though it is politics.
Agitated political times…
Did you study all of them?
What do you think of EA144?
The political economical religious context of that time was a mess. No better then today
Why do you think Horemheb took over? Don’t you think there was a coup d’état? Opinions vary. Blanks again.

I wanted to learn to translate those plates after AE but I stopped when I finished Gardiner, as I have a job I really like, and demotic would of needed more time. Cuneiform is difficult, few take that discipline. There is about 555? Signs- and here there was a terrible controversy about transliterations, around 99, stories such as Gilgamesh could be affected. Vowels are out and there is ligatures, it’s a real vocation, respect for those searchers.. ..

Tel Amarna area within and out of boundaries, is one of my favourite places, it brings evocations, I went there many times.
Petosiris temple is nearby, in the boundaries (Tuna El Gebel).
The plates and text are on the net, I am not sure the integrity is available.

As well as Thot’s garden, and other marvels.
It’s an Indiana Jones setting whole temples columns scorpios snakes ruins
Some sources cannot be found on the web, such as Old documents, books, maps, papyris, often we get snippets from whole texts, translated and taken out of context. I was stunned to see the number of Christian web sites talking about this story. I didn’t find the glyphs on the web yet.

I think it is possible that the chronology is wrong of 200 + years, there is a long fog before the Persian invasion. Black-outs, archaeological clues missing, less productivity, recession. The consequences of a change of datation would affect three of the main religions, plus correct all the facts in books and education, museums. Enough to get lost Controversy invites to brain-stormings, a good thing, when so many blanks remain in history.

Lots to learn

[swrate]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Are you a religous person?

Voodoo

Another strange question
From “strange to Muslim to French to feminist to ……………black to religious”
How many more labels to add? lol
It brings positive effects: …. How French do I feel, how Muslim do I feel, how American, how feminist----btw that was a revelation, how…… many others….
I never saw myself as a feminist.
I believe in freedom, and respect

how black Voodoo Chile
so of course now, I am wandering,
am I religious,,,,?

a theist maybe,
I believe in angels, prophets, gurus, masters, leaders, legends, in creators philosophers scientists, all reality inspired, from a factual yet distant base. I believe in trolls, and nature, nevertheless I consider myself sceptical. I don’t work in religious fields, I teach in primary degrees.

[RooneyX]

Originally posted by swrate:
Voodoo

a theist maybe,
I believe in angels, prophets, gurus, masters, leaders, legends, in creators philosophers scientists, all reality inspired, from a factual yet distant base. I believe in trolls, and nature, nevertheless I consider myself sceptical. I don’t work in religious fields, I teach in primary degrees.

You are the voodoo chile. Eiree rasta, peace.