[Developer]

Germany is becoming more and more impoverished!

For the first time ever, the per capita gross domestic product of Germany in 2003 was below the average European per capita GDP. Only 4 of the 15 EU nations are worse off. At the end of the eighties the German GDP was still 20% above EU average. Ireland - which used to be the poor house of western Europe - now has a per capita GDP 20% higher than that of Germany.
Germany is masking the success of the European Union. With an yearly GDP growth of 1.4% is the slowest growing economy in Europe, and responsible for the bad image of the European economy. While true that the return of investment for American companies is on average twice as high as that of German companies, the ROI of EU companies outside Germany is even higher than in the USA. As is the GDP growth which at 2.3% is higher than the American as well.
A trend reversal for Germany is not in sight. The situation is going to get worse. A small comfort: with the east-expansion of the EU the EU will add even poorer nations. That will push Germany's GDP above average again.

Discuss™ reasons and suggest solutions!

[nonhuman]

I don't think impoverish is a verb.

[Developer]

Originally posted by nonhuman:
I don't think impoverish is a verb.

My dictionary disagrees and I'm no native speaker so I can not tell. Please pm me a better word for "getting poorer" and I'll be happy to correct it.

[nonhuman]

Originally posted by Developer:
My dictionary disagrees and I'm no native speaker so I can not tell. Please pm me a better word for "getting poorer" and I'll be happy to correct it.

Huh, what do you know. It is a verb. It is, apparently, a transitive verb though, so you'd have to say 'Germany impoverishes itself' (which also sounds really strange) or 'Germany becomes impoverished'.

I don't think I've ever heard it used as a verb before. Learn something new every day.


Oh yeah, the actual topic...

I think the last bit in your first post is interesting. That adding poorer nations will push Germany back up above average. That really isn't a solution at all. Germany will still be poor and getting poorer, they'll just be able to point to other countries who are poorer than them. This doesn't actually fix anything, just temporarily masks the problem.

I know Germany's population is also declining. Is this, perhaps related?

[Lateralus]

I'd be willing to bet that both Germany's and the USA's economic decline could be attributed to trade. Reason I say that is because of the fact that the declining world econemy of the past few years has really pushed consumers into a conservative mindset, buying only what they need and for as little as possible. This in particular I think has helped the Asian econemies as they seem to base much of their industries around the manufacturing of low dollar items in mass quantities. But it has had the opposite effect on the more traditional economic power houses such as the USA, Germany and Japan since all 3 of us have traditionally focused our industries on the opposite type of product, usually higher dollar items.

So, I don't think this is a 'German problem'.

[NYCFarmboy]

Part of the problem in Germany is the population is actually declining..and aging MUCH faster than in the USA.

It is typical for a German family to be 3-Mom, Dad & Baby.

In the US, 2 or 3 children I believe is still the norm, plus with a high immigration rate from Latin America, our population here is thriving.

Immigration is very necessary for the US economy to continue to grow.

[Sherwin]

Germany vs Ireland?

Something to do with Germany paying billions into the EU kitty and Ireland taking billions out of it?

For example... (I remember this from a Clarkson programme): If the UK pays £4b into the kitty and Spain takes £4b and uses it to pay for it's transport infrastructure, the UK has paid for Spanish roads for a year. Therefore the Spanish taxpayer doesn't have to pay and the money which would have been used for transport can be pumped into improving the Spanish economy.

Is it that simple?

I don't buy this "we need immigration to survive" stuff. If this is the case, then there's something seriously wrong with the system (i.e. government going for "growth" rather than "stability"). Immigration to boost economy is unsustainable - especially in, say, the UK where there's already a housing shortage.

[phoenixboy]

easy. essentially germany is still paying the bill for assimilating the DDR. that is probably the biggest problem right there. never should have happened. thanks helmut, good job!

the expansion of the eu towards the east is not helping either. though on the whole it will make consumer products a bit cheaper, - wages, social welfare and healthcare are going to hell in a hand-basket, since germany needs to be able to compete™ with all the former soviet countries who have sh*t standards in terms of minimum wage etc.

though the economy is slightly on the incline, the political discourse and social climate are at an all time low. thanks to the neo liberal (neo conservative for all you merry cans) tendencies even in the so called "social-democratic" govt., the people who are suffering from globalization and the down trodden economy the most, are the ones paying the bill (through the erosion of social systems, elevated costs in health care, and cutting back on pension funds etc.). it almost looks like the politicians over here took a lesson at the bushwanker college for exploitation.

taxes are being reduced, but virtually no new jobs are created as a result. (wow, i'm really surprised). the unemployment rate is slowly but surely reaching the 5 million mark, and the only the solution the govt. has is to cut welfare...

i believe that the problems germany is facing are not so uniquely "german" after all (since the ill effects of globalization effect everyone - to a certain degree), but the fact that it has to still "digest" the former east (germany) is what blows this so out of proportion.

imho, the solution would involve a world which is centered around culture, solidarity and hedonism (and in essence raising the level of those who are below, instead of lowering the level "we" have already reached), rather than trade, competition and globalization...yeah, i know, not going to happen. who cares.

[oh, and it's "germany becoming impoverished"]

[phoenixboy]

Originally posted by nonhuman:
That really isn't a solution at all. Germany will still be poor and getting poorer, they'll just be able to point to other countries who are poorer than them. This doesn't actually fix anything, just temporarily masks the problem.

100% agreed. but in time, this will not only be a "german" problem (poverty), but one that the entire planet will have to face. growth can't go on for ever and, imho, we have already reached our limit in the western hemisphere. immigration won't solve the problem either, but only shift attention, and cause "relief" for a short while.

Originally posted by nonhuman:
I know Germany's population is also declining. Is this, perhaps related?

no, the problem is, as farmboy nyc already pointed out, that it is getting "older" at an alarmingly fast pace...

[FeLiZeCaT]

Apparently this does not work:

http://www.8ballradio.com/modules.ph...=0&thold=0

[theolein]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
Germany vs Ireland?

Something to do with Germany paying billions into the EU kitty and Ireland taking billions out of it?

For example... (I remember this from a Clarkson programme): If the UK pays £4b into the kitty and Spain takes £4b and uses it to pay for it's transport infrastructure, the UK has paid for Spanish roads for a year. Therefore the Spanish taxpayer doesn't have to pay and the money which would have been used for transport can be pumped into improving the Spanish economy.

Is it that simple?

I don't buy this "we need immigration to survive" stuff. If this is the case, then there's something seriously wrong with the system (i.e. government going for "growth" rather than "stability"). Immigration to boost economy is unsustainable - especially in, say, the UK where there's already a housing shortage.

My God, I actually agree with Sherwin on something!

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Developer:
A trend reversal for Germany is not in sight. The situation is going to get worse. A small comfort: with the east-expansion of the EU the EU will add even poorer nations. That will push Germany's GDP above average again.

Discuss™ reasons and suggest solutions!

Those countries are absolutely poorer, but aren't their growth rates significantly higher?

The basic problem of Germany is overregulation, overtaxation, poor efficiency (mainly due to the excessive vacation time your workers take) and so on -- all measured in comparison to your immediate neighbors and trading partners. I saw a little of this when I lived in Germany in 1992 to 1995. None of this is a mystery. Both your previous governments have agreed, but seem powerless to overcome the inertia. I heard an interview with your industry representatives who talked about how it makes no financial sense to open up industries in Germany when they can do it cheaper and more efficiently in places like Poland. There were also some articles recently about your growing brain drain, much of which is emigration to the United States.

I grew up in Britain in the 1970s and 1980s. This is very much reminiscent of Britain in the 1970s when it was "the sick man of Europe." What you need is a Margaret Thatcher and the will to fix the problems and sacrifice a little. It's no more complicated than that.

[Developer]

Originally posted by phoenixboy:
taxes are being reduced, but virtually no new jobs are created as a result. (wow, i'm really surprised). the unemployment rate is slowly but surely reaching the 5 million mark, and the only the solution the govt. has is to cut welfare...

Indeed. Sometimes this can make you really angry. See for example:

2003/03/05: Infineon threatens to migrate out of Germany (due to high taxes)

Taxes are being reduced.

2004/02/16: Infineon accelerates outsourcing

[phoenixboy]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I heard an interview with your industry representatives who talked about how it makes no financial sense to open up industries in Germany when they can do it cheaper and more efficiently in places like Poland.

yeah, so the govt. plan is to lower the german standards to the level of those of poland et al...

of course you are going to be more effecient if you completely downsize everything and reduce wages to slave labor standards. problem: unemployment goes through the roof and the average citizen's "purchase power" is virtually null. good idea!

oh, and "thatcherism" at this point in time, would turn germany into a russia of the early 20th century (and i'm not the only one saying this).

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
What you need is a Margaret Thatcher and the will to fix the problems and sacrifice a little. It's no more complicated than that.

Now, I was rather too young at the time, but from what I gather, Maggie Thatcher indeed fixed up Britain real good.

Healthcare and railroad, I gather, are second to none.

[eklipse]

Only Simey could call the Germans inefficient. Classic.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by eklipse:
Only Simey could call the Germans inefficient. Classic.

I'm afraid it's true. If you work fewer hours for more pay, that's inefficiency.

[John C. Smith]

Actually, yes, it is a German problem. If you removed Germany from the EU (for the sake of this discussion) you would find that the EU's GDP and rate of economic growth are suddenly comparable to that of the USA. Germany is dragging Europe down, and it's been dragging europe down for 20 years now. The only thing that will bump Germany back up above the EU average is the introduction of the eastern states.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Now, I was rather too young at the time, but from what I gather, Maggie Thatcher indeed fixed up Britain real good.

Healthcare and railroad, I gather, are second to none.

Well, as you say, you are too young to remember. But few people in Britain would willingly go back to the way the country was in the 1970s. Think: "winter of discontent." Think: Brain drain, Think British Leyland cars and so on. Maggie Thatcher's reforms didn't just happen. They happened because people by 1979 realized that the old welfare culture had so destroyed enterprize that things had to change. That's why the labor laws have never been changed even after Labour came to power. Nobody wanted a return to stagflation, and the days where the government was controlled by people like Arthur Skargill.

Germany's problem seems to be that you want the problem solved but without facing up to what the problem is and without being willing to make any changes. It can't be done.

[Logic]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Well, as you say, you are too young to remember. But few people in Britain would willingly go back to the way the country was in the 1970s. Think: "winter of discontent." Think: Brain drain, Think British Leyland cars and so on. Maggie Thatcher's reforms didn't just happen. They happened because people by 1979 realized that the old welfare culture had so destroyed enterprize that things had to change. That's why the labor laws have never been changed even after Labour came to power. Nobody wanted a return to stagflation, and the days where the government was controlled by people like Arthur Skargill.

Germany's problem seems to be that you want the problem solved but without facing up to what the problem is and without being willing to make any changes. It can't be done.

Let me see:

GDP Growth 1998-2002

The conservative way of fixing these things isn't the only way simey. That is what you seem to be implying. We have nations like Sweden, Poland, Finland, and Iceland above the US. None of these countries are very conservative in their way of leading the nation. Actually the Nordic countries are probably the most "socialistic" nations left in the world at the moment. Still they are above the US in GDP growth. How do you explain that?

And perhaps you could explain why the more conservative nations of the EU(Italy and UK) are way below the nations I mentioned above?

[eklipse]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I'm afraid it's true. If you work fewer hours for more pay, that's inefficiency.

That is an overly simplistic analysis that ignores the quality of the work performed during the working hours.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by eklipse:
That is an overly simplistic analysis that ignores the quality of the work performed during the working hours.

To some extent, quality does compensate. But only when you compare labor forces where there is a relative difference in quality. Poles and Czechs aren't any less educated than Germans. If they work longer, and if their plants have less overhead, then you are going to end up producing more quality goods for less money. The same holds true for service industries.

Germans have built for themselves a rather comfortable lifestyle. The last time I saw the statistics, they take the most vacation hours in western Europe. When I lived there, I was pretty much amazed at how few hours people actually worked. Knocking off on Friday at 2pm after having taken a hour for lunch is normal. In effect, the German workforce works 4 days a week -- and that is on weeks without a holiday.

To some extent they do seem to rush around during their working hours to compensate. Saturday morning shopping always struck me as frenetic. But you can only squeeze out so much that way. The reality is there are other industrialized countries in the world who can also produce quality goods and services. And they do it for a lot less.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Logic:
Let me see:

GDP Growth 1998-2002

You seem to be trying to turn this into a discussion about the US, which it is not. My comparison was to the UK, where I lived in the 1970s and 1980s. Germany is a European nation. The better comparison is with its European neighbors. Using that as the comparison rather than your US fixation, you get this graph from your website:



These are Germany's neighbors and immediate competitors. There is obviously a problem.

[Logic]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
You seem to be trying to turn this into a discussion about the US, which it is not. My comparison was to the UK, where I lived in the 1970s and 1980s. Germany is a European nation. The better comparison is with its European neighbors. Using that as the comparison rather than your US fixation, you get this graph from your website:

These are Germany's neighbors and immediate competitors. There is obviously a problem.

I'm not trying to do that. Calm down.

You implied that Germany should move to a more "conservative" policy, like MT did in Britain. MT moved Britain further from Europe and more to the US than probably any other nation in Europe has ever done. Therefore I showed you the two "opposites" the US vs. Scandinavia + Poland. To show that the growth can be more in nations with a more "socialistic" policy than in the more "conservative" nations. So calm down. No one is trying to turn this into a US vs. rest of the world. Just trying to show you that the MT way is not the only way to go. You could look into how Sweden reacted to their depression in the middle of last century(IIRC).

See my point?

And I don't think anyone actually said there aren't problems in Germany and EU in general.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Logic:
I'm not trying to do that. Calm down.

You implied that Germany should move to a more "conservative" policy, like MT did in Britain. MT moved Britain further from Europe and more to the US than probably any other nation in Europe has ever done. Therefore I showed you the two "opposites" the US vs. Scandinavia + Poland. To show that the growth can be more in nations with a more "socialistic" policy than in the more "conservative" nations. So calm down. No one is trying to turn this into a US vs. rest of the world. Just trying to show you that the MT way is not the only way to go. You could look into how Sweden reacted to their depression in the middle of last century(IIRC).

See my point?

And I don't think anyone actually said there aren't problems in Germany and EU in general.

I don't know enough about Sweden to comment. But I have lived in Germany, have lived in Britain, and have done some travelling in Poland. Comparing those, Poland has quite considerably lower regulatory barriers to investment than Germany. It also has much lower labor and other overhead costs, and a well-educated workforce who work mucl longer hours, take fewer vacations, and are paid less than Germany. It's also right on Germany's border and it therefore costs very little to move goods there. It should not be surprising that new investment is likely to go to Poland, not Germany. Germany is simply pricing itself out of competition.

Britain went through a similar slump in the 1970s. They managed to pull themselves out of it. They didn't become like the United States and that would be the wrong comparison. But they did rediscover the fundamental truth that you can't tax wealth that isn't created, and you can't take vacations from a job you don't have. Although plenty of Germans (including both the previous CDU government, and the current SPD/Green) one see this, they haven't yet come to the point where they can overcome social inertia to make the necessary changes. In Britian, that didn't happen until after a series of devestating strikes in the winter of 1978-79. Until then, people just muddled along. But I recall it was a very unhappy time for the country.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
You seem to be trying to turn this into a discussion about the US, which it is not. My comparison was to the UK, where I lived in the 1970s and 1980s. Germany is a European nation. The better comparison is with its European neighbors.

[graphic snipped]

These are Germany's neighbors and immediate competitors. There is obviously a problem.

I can't help wondering how those numbers would look if we could split up data for the former GDR and Federal Republic of Germany...

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
I can't help wondering how those numbers would look if we could split up data for the former GDR and Federal Republic of Germany...

How different are the salaries, hours worked per year (by the employed), taxes, business overhead costs, regulatory burdens, and so on?

Put it another way. If you could split off the former DDR, would its economic statistics look more like the rest of Germany, or more like Poland, Hungary, or the Czech Republic? I don't know the answer, but those three countries do have pretty high growth.

[Logic]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
How different are the salaries, hours worked per year (by the employed), taxes, business overhead costs, regulatory burdens, and so on?

Put it another way. If you could split off the former DDR, would its economic statistics look more like the rest of Germany, or more like Poland, Hungary, or the Czech Republic? I don't know the answer, but those three countries do have pretty high growth.

Yes, they have a pretty high growth but, there is a but

GDP/capita:

Poland: $9,529.97

Hungary: $13,369.73

Czech Republic: $15,199.67

Germany: $26,233.67

So you see there is a huge difference in the GDP. And after the former eastern block got free and more integrated into the European economy their economies of course grew. So I'm not sure we should take the growth as anything too important in this.

I'll find more stats later........

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Logic:
Yes, they have a pretty high growth but, there is a but

GDP/capita:

Poland: $9,529.97

Hungary: $13,369.73

Czech Republic: $15,199.67

Germany: $26,233.67

So you see there is a huge difference in the GDP. And after the former eastern block got free and more integrated into the European economy their economies of course grew. So I'm not sure we should take the growth as anything too important in this.

I'll find more stats later........

So, are you saying that there is no problem with Germany's economy because it is richer than its neighbors? That contradicts the original post, does it not?

Surely it would be better to look at the root of Germany's problem, which is a competitive disadvantage with respect to all of its neighbors. You can't wish them away, they are there. All you can do is reform the German economy to make Germany less hostile to investment and thereby attract some of that investment back (or at least, prevent it leaving). Or do you have another suggestion? What in your opinion is Germany doing wrong that it could fix?

[Logic]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
So, are you saying that there is no problem with Germany's economy because it is richer than its neighbors? That contradicts the original post, does it not?

Surely it would be better to look at the root of Germany's problem, which is a competitive disadvantage with respect to all of its neighbors. You can't wish them away, they are there. All you can do is reform the German economy to make Germany less hostile to investment and thereby attract some of that investment back (or at least, prevent it leaving). Or do you have another suggestion? What in your opinion is Germany doing wrong that it could fix?

:reads my own post again, scratches head:

Can you point out where I said that there where no problems with the German economy? I agree that the growth isn't as good as it could be, but I'm not sure there is such a huge problem as some seem to think.

[itai195]

Originally posted by Logic:
:reads my own post again, scratches head:

Can you point out where I said that there where no problems with the German economy? I agree that the growth isn't as good as it could be, but I'm not sure there is such a huge problem as some seem to think.

10.5% unemployment seems like a pretty big problem.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Logic:
I agree that the growth isn't as good as it could be, but I'm not sure there is such a huge problem as some seem to think.

Germans seem to disagree. Poor economic growth is is just an indicator of a poor economy. It's particularly a symptom when Germany's neighbors are growing faster because to a large extent they are benefitting from investment that otherwise would go to Germany. But you can't blame them for it. You have to look to Germany internally.

I have tried to give a suggestion. Look to the way Britain cured similar problems in the 1970s. Britain and Germany are both large, industrial, mature, mixed, European economies. I think it is a good comparison. I'd be interested in your counter-suggestions.

[Logic]

Originally posted by itai195:
10.5% unemployment seems like a pretty big problem.

It is a pretty big problem yes. And I never said anything else. And that could be one of the reasons that the growth is so little in Germany. Now I don't know how that number is in former eastern/western Germany but that is a problem, yes. A huge problem, no.

[Logic]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I have tried to give a suggestion. Look to the way Britain cured similar problems in the 1970s. Britain and Germany are both large, industrial, mature, mixed, European economies. I think it is a good comparison. I'd be interested in your counter-suggestions.

Use the Swedish method. That method required the government to start creating jobs for the unemployed as well as making sure no one gets unemployment benefits without doing some work instead. Improve the infrastructure, rebuild the military, and that sort of stuff. That makes the government pump funds into the economy and gets the economy going again. And then while you have decreased the unemployment and got the growth back up you have bought yourself time to look into what aspects of the laws and regulations need to be fixed.

Worked fine for Sweden that has an economy very similar to the German one. There is no need to go the conservative way and cut funds for infrastructure and healthcare etc.

[itai195]

Sounds like the New Deal.

[daimoni]

Originally posted by Logic:
Worked fine for Sweden that has an economy very similar to the German one. There is no need to go the conservative way and cut funds for infrastructure and healthcare etc.

But has it really worked out so fine for Sweden? It's not like they don't have their own economic problems.

Hey, Germany could just do the Norway method... and discover a shitload of oil.

[Logic]

Originally posted by daimoni:
But has it really worked out so fine for Sweden? It's not like they don't have their own economic problems.

Hey, Germany could just do the Norway method... and discover a shitload of oil.

What problems do the swedes have?

And is there any country in the world that doesn't have some "problems" in their economy?

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Logic:
Use the Swedish method. That method required the government to start creating jobs for the unemployed as well as making sure no one gets unemployment benefits without doing some work instead. Improve the infrastructure, rebuild the military, and that sort of stuff. That makes the government pump funds into the economy and gets the economy going again. And then while you have decreased the unemployment and got the growth back up you have bought yourself time to look into what aspects of the laws and regulations need to be fixed.

Worked fine for Sweden that has an economy very similar to the German one. There is no need to go the conservative way and cut funds for infrastructure and healthcare etc.

I said nothing about cutting funds for infrastructure and healthcare. As a matter of fact, I don't think it is the case that the Thatcher government ever cut either. There were cuts, but not of the NHS. NHS spending went up, not down.

In any case, the core reforms of the Thatcher government were:

* Privatization of certain bloated state-owned industries.
* Deregualtion.
* Reforms of the labor laws -- for example, requiring votes before strikes could be called and outlawing secondary picketing.
* Reduced taxes.
* Bringing inflation under control.

Your program isn't necessarily incompatible with doing the above. But I think you should address where the money would come from. Also, bear in mind that growth can't be stimulated by public spending alone. If all you do is tax Peter to pay Paul you haven't actually created anything new. So you do have to stimulate private investment and that means attracting business. You can't do that unless you offer an incentive. If the costs of doing busness in Germany are higher than its neighbors, then how are you going to persuade industry to overlook that and make what would be an economically irrational decision?

Your idea about requiring unemployed people to work is one that has been put into practice here in the US and also in Britain. It can help at the edges. But the core of the problem is private sector investment.

[Developer]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Surely it would be better to look at the root of Germany's problem, which is a competitive disadvantage with respect to all of its neighbors.

You are forgetting that Germany also has to deal with the costs of annexing the GDR.

[Developer]

Originally posted by Logic:
It is a pretty big problem yes. And I never said anything else. And that could be one of the reasons that the growth is so little in Germany. Now I don't know how that number is in former eastern/western Germany but that is a problem, yes. A huge problem, no.

Unemployment rate is 8.9% in the west and 19.1% in the east.

See the statistic (PDF)

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Developer:
You are forgetting that Germany also has to deal with the costs of annexing the GDR.

No, I'm not forgetting it. But I don't think it is correct to blame that entirely for the faults of the Germany economy, which are more structural in nature. If this were not the case none of the other former Communist coutries would be doing any better than the former GDR. But they are. Hungary, for example, according to the table above has a growth rate of 4.2%!

Secondly, blaming the costs of the former East isn't helpful since there is no way you are going to be able to remove those costs. Every country would be wealthier if it could dump its poorest region. In any case, there is low growth and high unemployment in the West too. It's not just a problem in the East, or caused by the East. If it were just those costs of reunification, you would expect the German economy to be slowly recovering from reunification, not steadily declining.

You give me the sense that the German body politic would rather point fingers than find solutions. That's not going to make things better.

[Developer]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
No, I'm not forgetting it. But I don't think it is correct to blame that entirely for the faults of the Germany economy, which are more structural in nature. If this were not the case none of the other former Communist coutries would be doing any better than the former GDR. But they are. Hungary, for example, according to the table above has a growth rate of 4.2%!

Yes, but the other former socialist countries didn't raise standards to western levels from one day to another. If you would increase Hungarian wages to 80% of those of West Germany, you'd kill the Hungarian economy as well.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Developer:
Yes, but the other former socialist countries didn't raise standards to western levels from one day to another. If you would increase Hungarian wages to 80% of those of West Germany, you'd kill the Hungarian economy as well.

In other words, indicating that the problem is German productivity -- too high pay, for not enough hours worked -- made worse by the fact that your neighbors are more productive -- lower pay for more hours worked.

The solution is pretty obvious. Just painful.

[phoenixboy]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
In other words, indicating that the problem is German productivity -- too high pay, for not enough hours worked -- made worse by the fact that your neighbors are more productive -- lower pay for more hours worked.

The solution is pretty obvious. Just painful.

yes it is. we need to raise the standards in healthcare, wages and education to the level where germany was in the mid 80s first europe wide, then GLOBALLY, while eliminating corruption at the same time.

like i wrote before, effeciency (lowering taxes, wages, and cutting down health care and unemployment benefits while at the same time prolonging working hours) hasn't cut it (creating jobs). it's time to try something new™!

[pooka]

Step 1: raise the standards in healthcare, wages and education to the level where germany was in the mid 80s - europe wide.

Step 2: raise the standards in healthcare, wages and education to the level where germany was in the mid 80s - globally.

Step 3: ????

Step 4: Profit!

[phoenixboy]

Originally posted by pooka:
Step 1: raise the standards in healthcare, wages and education to the level where germany was in the mid 80s - europe wide.

Step 2: raise the standards in healthcare, wages and education to the level where germany was in the mid 80s - globally.

Step 3: Party!

Originally posted by pooka:
Step 4: Profit!

[Jim Paradise]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
In other words, indicating that the problem is German productivity -- too high pay, for not enough hours worked -- made worse by the fact that your neighbors are more productive -- lower pay for more hours worked.

The solution is pretty obvious. Just painful.

Stick in a couple of Wal Marts and export work to China?

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by phoenixboy:
yes it is. we need to raise the standards in healthcare, wages and education to the level where germany was in the mid 80s first europe wide, then GLOBALLY, while eliminating corruption at the same time.

Ha! I remember watching an interview with John Cleese. He told a story about a Marxist friend of his who was also a millionaire. Cleese asked him if being a millionaire wasn't inconsistent with being a Marxist. The friend replied: "But I want everyone to be as rich as me."

Eastern Europe will eventually catch up with Germany's standard of living. And if the current attitude toward work and business in Germany continues, they will probably surpass it too. The question is whether Germans will wake up from their complacency in time to stop that from happening. You can't demand that everyone else cripple themselves just so Germans can avoid making painful choices -- like actually working.

Germany's decline can be turned around just as it was in Britain in the 80s. However, the phrase "where there is a will there is a way" comes to mind. The problem is only one of willpower. It's pretty sad seeing this self-imposed hopelessnesss in the country whose post war generation created the Wirtschaftswunder. Their kids have forgotten where that wealth came from.

[FeLiZeCaT]

Quote from Jim Paradise:

Stick in a couple of Wal Marts and export work to China?

___________________________

;o)

[theolein]

Simey is partly right about Germany being over bureaucratic and under productive, but he neglects things like the high levels of subsdies paid to Poland, the lack of quality levels in Polish products (I'm taking Poland as an example for most of the new EU) and the fact that prices of basic necsseties are far lower in Poland than they are in Germany. While Polish workers are more productive than German workers, i.e. lower wages (not much higher hours though) they also pay less for rent, food etc than German workers do. Will they catch up to western Europe? Only if the EU continues paying high levels of subsidies to them, as they did to Spain, Portugal and Greece. Germany and the Uk are finally getting tired of financing the rest of the EU at their own expense so this might change.

Apart from this, the problems of Germany are obviously the fact that German politics is hostage to the crappy trade unions and that there is so much infighting amongst the German political parties themselves. Where else in Europe is it still illegal to have one's store open in the evening or even 24/7?

That is a big problem in Germany. The inability to realise that times change and that not everything remains easy.