[kvm_mkdb]

A man who said he was a caretaker for the now exiled president told France's RTL radio station the troops forced Aristide out.

"The American army came to take him away at two in the morning," the man said.

"The Americans forced him out with weapons.

"It was American soldiers. They came with a helicopter and they took the security guards.

"(Aristide) was not happy. He did not want to be taken away. He did not want to leave. He was not able to fight against the Americans..."

http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/st...storyid=973655

[nonhuman]

If it was us, then good. But I would have liked to have known about it ahead of time. Aristide was no good for Haiti.

I doubt, however, that it was us. It probably was Aristide just fleeing and using the US' new trend of deposing dictators as an excuse. Sadly, I doubt our government really gives a damn about Haiti.

[macvillage.net]

He's still technically president as they said on TV this morning.

So it's in no way a resignation. He's just left at this time.

And yes, the US has confirmed (not with as much info as you have posted) that they aided in his exile.

[kvm_mkdb]

Originally posted by nonhuman:
the US' new trend of deposing dictators

Dictator? Aristide was democratically elected...

[nonhuman]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
He's still technically president as they said on TV this morning.

So it's in no way a resignation. He's just left at this time.

And yes, the US has confirmed (not with as much info as you have posted) that they aided in his exile.

Sometimes it's nice to be wrong.

[nonhuman]

Originally posted by kvm_mkdb:
Dictator? Aristide was democratically elected...

I didn't say he was, just that because the US seems to be proactively pursuing "democracy" in foreign countries he could use that as an excuse to run away and say that he wasn't actually running away. This isn't the first time the US has toppled a democratically elected government, and considering Bush's foreign policy it wouldn't be surprising for unpopular leaders, even if democratically elected, to see US intervention as a threat.

[angaq0k]

According to this:

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/02/29/world/haiti040229

he did resign.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by kvm_mkdb:
Dictator? Aristide was democratically elected...

Yup. A democratically elected dictator. I have to wonder if we should have let the coup happen back in the 90s. It might have been a much better government.

[angaq0k]

Funny...

Quote from Le Monde of 2004/02/29:

http://www.lemonde.fr/txt/article/0,...-354788,0.html

A l'aise en français, en anglais et en espagnol, Guy Philippe dit avoir trouvé sa vocation de policier dans la lecture des philosophes français du siècle des Lumières. "La police est la colonne vertébrale de la société", aime-t-il répéter pour expliquer son combat. - (AFP.)

Translation by yours truly:

At ease with French, English and Spanish, Guy Philippe said he got his vocation as a policeman from readings of French philosophers of the siècle des Lumières (Century of light, 18th Century). "Police is the backbone of society", he likes to repeat to explain his combat.

This is promising...

[kvm_mkdb]

Originally posted by BRussell:
Yup. A democratically elected dictator. I have to wonder if we should have let the coup happen back in the 90s. It might have been a much better government.

We did let a coup against him happen in the 90s -- he was elected again in 2001.

Why do you think he was a dictator?

[kvm_mkdb]

Originally posted by angaq0k:
This is promising...

He said the man he most admires, however, is former Chilean dictator Gen. Augusto Pinochet, who was known for concentrating, not separating, power. "Pinochet made Chile what it is." No. 2 on his list is former U.S. President Ronald Reagan.
http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/8059886.htm

Yeah, very promising...

[angaq0k]

Here is some more background info:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/haiti/

This is a website with a clear position about Aristide (check the burning of a Bush mannequin and the U.S. flag):

http://www.wehaitians.com/

I found these web sites while making a search on Google about Clinton and Aristide...

That country seems to have been under humongous pressure...

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by kvm_mkdb:
[i]A man who said he was a caretaker for the now exiled president told France's RTL radio station the troops forced Aristide out.

"The American army came to take him away at two in the morning," the man said.

"The Americans forced him out with weapons.

"It was American soldiers. They came with a helicopter and they took the security guards.

That seems to confirm the stories, all but the notion that the Americans "seized" him. Almost all of the reports state that Aristide realized he was screwed, and requested US troops to escort him to the airport.

The "frightened old man, crouched in a corner" probably didn't know what was going on. He was awoken at 2:00 am to see armed US troops escorting Aristide out of the building.

[kvm_mkdb]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
That seems to confirm the stories, all but the notion that the Americans "seized" him. Almost all of the reports state that Aristide realized he was screwed, and requested US troops to escort him to the airport.

The "frightened old man, crouched in a corner" probably didn't know what was going on. He was awoken at 2:00 am to see armed US troops escorting Aristide out of the building.

Maybe. He hasn't confirmed his resignation yet though - and the fact that the his replacement was nominated by the US ambassador does raise some questions.

[OldManMac]

According to this, he resigned.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by angaq0k:
According to this:

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/02/29/world/haiti040229

he did resign.

Yep. Now they are saying he resigned.

[fizzlemynizzle]

I smell BS. Aristide's starting to show signs of being a nutjob..

Which begs the question: Which is worse, our helping him get elected (and re-installed after his first overthrow) or removing him now? Either way it's not good for us.

By the way - Something that's been very under reported is that the Haitian rebels have been carrying and rallying themselves around US flags. But they have yet to explain what their significance is.

If these rebels were being secretly aided by the Dominican military, who was handing out CIA supplied M-16s.. you'd think the CIA would probably be smart enough to tell the rebels to not advertise it by carrying arouund flags.. so what the real story is a mystery.

[Sp@rtan]

Check this: http://www.democracynow.org/article..../03/01/1521216

[fizzlemynizzle]

it's already been established that aristide claims what he claims. the linked article provides no insight into the truth of those claims.

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by kvm_mkdb:
Maybe. He hasn't confirmed his resignation yet though - and the fact that the his replacement was nominated by the US ambassador does raise some questions.

From this website: http://www.src.ca/url.asp?/nouvelles...-SOLDATS.shtml

Quote:

Conformément aux statuts de la Constitution haïtienne, le juge en chef de la Cour de cassation, Boniface Alexandre, a été assermenté comme président par intérim.

Translation by yours truly:

Accordingly to the Statutes of Haiti's Constitution, the Chief Judge of the Supreme Court of Appeal, Boniface Alexandre was assermented as President by Interim.

[kvm_mkdb]

Originally posted by Sp@rtan:
Check this: http://www.democracynow.org/article..../03/01/1521216

Thank you. The only congressmember to talk to Aristide, Maxine Waters, confirmed the worse:

He said that he was kidnapped; he said that he was forced to leave Haiti.

But one thing that was very clear and he said it over and over again, that he was kidnapped, that the coup was completed by the Americans that they forced him out.

He did not resign.

[kvm_mkdb]

Originally posted by angaq0k:
Accordingly to the Statutes of Haiti's Constitution, the Chief Judge of the Supreme Court of Appeal, Boniface Alexandre was assermented as President by Interim. [/B]

ARTICLE 149: Should the office of the President of the Republic become vacant for any reason, the President of the Supreme Court of the Republic, or in his absence, the Vice President of that Court, or in his absence, the judge with the highest seniority and so on by order of seniority, shall be invested temporarily with the duties of the President of the Republic by the National Assembly duly convened by the Prime Minister- The election of a new President for a new five (5) year term shall be held at least forty-five (45) and no more than ninety (90) days after the vacancy occurs, pursuant to the Constitution and the Electoral Law.

(emphasis mine)

http://www.georgetown.edu/pdba/Const...haiti1987.html

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by kvm_mkdb:
Thank you. The only congressmember to talk to Aristide, Maxine Waters, confirmed the worse:

He said that he was kidnapped; he said that he was forced to leave Haiti.

But one thing that was very clear and he said it over and over again, that he was kidnapped, that the coup was completed by the Americans that they forced him out.

He did not resign.

Actually, Rep. Charles Rangel spoke to him too, as did activist Randall Robinson. Do kidnap victims always get to make so many phone calls? His choice of people to call is interesting as well.

Regardless, Aristide is gone. He can claim he was forced out, or that the Americans completed the coup. It really doesn't matter. He could have said "no thanks" to the US offer of asylum, and waited for himself and his family to be slaughtered. The US was not going to offer him one ounce of protection, and the rebels made clear that they would be charging in should no agreement be reached.

He was done either way. He chose to live and accept asylum. If the US (with French assistance) really wanted him out, they could have simply left the presidential palace and told the rebels "sorry, no deal". And guess what? Aristide would still no longer be in power. His head would be on a stick.

AP: Administration Denies Forcing Aristide Out

White House officials said Jean-Bertrand Aristide left willingly and that the United States aided his safe departure Sunday.

Aristide's supporters in the United States said the one-time U.S. ally told them American forces made him leave Haiti and that he was being held against his will in the Central African Republic, a charge that country's foreign affairs minister rejected.

The administration did make clear to Aristide in the tumultuous hours before he left that he could not count on U.S. protection from rebels threatening to storm the presidential palace and kill him. Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites) relayed that message Saturday night to Aristide's Washington lobbyist, former Rep. Ron Dellums, D-Calif., said an administration official speaking on condition of anonymity.

The official said Aristide asked U.S. officials whether some of the 50 Marines that President Bush (news - web sites) had sent a week ago to protect the U.S. Embassy in Port-au-Prince might shift to the presidential palace if the rebels drew close.

The answer was no. The response was the same on Saturday when members of Aristide's presidential guard, which included some Americans working as contract employees, asked embassy officials about the prospect of U.S. protection at the palace in the face of an expected assault.

"He was not kidnapped. We did not force him on to the airplane. He went onto the airplane willingly, and that's the truth," Powell said.<snip>

The crisis had brewed since Aristide's party won flawed legislative elections in 2000 and international donors froze millions of dollars in aid.

Opponents said Aristide, the country's first democratically elected president, broke promises to help the poor, permitted corruption that was fueled by drug trafficking and was behind attacks that armed gangs made on his critics. He denied the charges.

Aristide realized he had to go, said Rep. Mark Foley, R-Fla. "He was either leaving on a Learjet or in a casket," he said. "He chose the jet.

But activist Randall Robinson said Aristide told him on the phone Monday that he had been kidnapped at gunpoint by American soldiers and ousted in a U.S.-run coup d'etat, and was being detained in the Central African Republican.

But the country's foreign affairs minister, Charles Wenezoui, met Aristide at the airport and said, "He is a free man and the heavy security measures around the presidential palace is for his own security." <snip>

But a senior White House official said that Aristide, on the ride to the airport and to exile, was philosophical about what was happening. Aristide, speaking with someone who accompanied him, "made clear that he believed what he was doing was in the best interest of Haiti and the Haitian people," said the official.

(edited to include article link)

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by kvm_mkdb:
ARTICLE 149: Should the office of the President of the Republic become vacant for any reason, the President of the Supreme Court of the Republic, or in his absence, the Vice President of that Court, or in his absence, the judge with the highest seniority and so on by order of seniority, shall be invested temporarily with the duties of the President of the Republic by the National Assembly duly convened by the Prime Minister- The election of a new President for a new five (5) year term shall be held at least forty-five (45) and no more than ninety (90) days after the vacancy occurs, pursuant to the Constitution and the Electoral Law.

(emphasis mine)

http://www.georgetown.edu/pdba/Const...haiti1987.html

Yep. You are right on that one. Straight from the Embassy in Washington:
http://www.haiti.org/official_docume...e5ch3.htm#secA

Now we need to know if he was really kidnapped, in what context and by whom.

On their first page, they have a link to that "democracy now" website.

Not a proof yet he was kidnapped but...

[daimoni]

So... are people still clinging to the rumors that he was kidnapped, or can we move forward with reality now?

[angaq0k]

Here are a few more links:

The following link suggest a potential coup assisted by Bush.

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=...7-055619-8595r

This one presents what seems to be about the use of american made guns to do the coup:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...596162,00.html

The next one seems to criticize either positively or negatively Bush's support:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...am_ca/us_haiti

While this last link is what apepars to be an opinion to show the lack of empathy from Bush to the people of Haiti:

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...l=968350116795

But none seems to prove that the U.S. government was involved so much in that coup that Aristide had been kidnapped.

[NYCFarmboy]

I don't see the problem...

If he really didn't resign willfully why doesn't he just hop on a flight back?

[docbud]

to no one in particular
This is important to note:

The administration did make clear to Aristide in the tumultuous hours before he left that he could not count on U.S. protection from rebels threatening to storm the presidential palace and kill him.

The U.S. didn't force him to leave or kidnap him. We simply said here's the situation and you make the call. He could have stayed. He chose to leave with U.S. soldiers protecting him.

The news tonight has been full of this "kidnapping," but the main point seems to revolve around the U.S. saying they could not (and would not) protect him. How does that equate to a coup or being kidnapped?

You know the funny thing? There were probably three choices available to the U.S.

1) support Aristide and be accused of something.
2) overthrow Aristide and be accused of something
3) tell him the situation and make him decide (and be accused of something).

(either way we're accused of something. Damned no matter what we do).
doc

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by daimoni:
So... are people still clinging to the rumors that he was kidnapped, or can we move forward with reality now?

err..which reality? I only see different sources with vastly different versions of it.
I could easily see it either way.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by NYCFarmboy:
I don't see the problem...

If he really didn't resign willfully why doesn't he just hop on a flight back?

If he didn't resign willfully and was indeed kidnapped in an american engineered coup, he'd be in no position to, nor would he have the freedom to fly back.

so, I don't think the fact he hasn't flown back proves anything conclusively either way.

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by docbud:
to no one in particular
This is important to note:

The U.S. didn't force him to leave or kidnap him. We simply said here's the situation and you make the call. He could have stayed. He chose to leave with U.S. soldiers protecting him.

The news tonight has been full of this "kidnapping," but the main point seems to revolve around the U.S. saying they could not (and would not) protect him. How does that equate to a coup or being kidnapped?

You know the funny thing? There were probably three choices available to the U.S.

1) support Aristide and be accused of something.
2) overthrow Aristide and be accused of something
3) tell him the situation and make him decide (and be accused of something).

(either way we're accused of something. Damned no matter what we do).
doc

I agree that it would be pretty bold. I am looking forward for more information about this. But then again, we may never know the truth (or believe it).

Thing is, after a lot of thinking (and I may have more to do) is that I don't believe the U.S. government is necessarily responsible of much. Or any other government for that matter.

It's just a few people in power that can allow themselves some freedom. Whatever the country, whatever the government, whenever it happens, people are people, and when some can get away with something, they may very well do it.

Aristide may be playing everybody just as well as he may have been kidnapped.

Let's wait and see I suppose...

[NYCFarmboy]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
If he didn't resign willfully and was indeed kidnapped in an american engineered coup, he'd be in no position to, nor would he have the freedom to fly back.

so, I don't think the fact he hasn't flown back proves anything conclusively either way.

hogwash...if he is President he can do whatever he wants.

he left to save his own skin. Now that he is safely in some palace somewhere in exile he is whining. I say fly him back to Port Au Prince immediately.

[daimoni]

Originally posted by NYCFarmboy:
hogwash...if he is President he can do whatever he wants.

he left to save his own skin. Now that he is safely in some palace somewhere in exile he is whining. I say fly him back to Port Au Prince immediately.

Exactly.

Unless someone is forcing him to whine in exile.

[lil'babykitten]

Aristide: US forced me to leave

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by daimoni:
Unless someone is forcing him to whine in exile.

And forcing him to make a bunch of international phone calls...it sounds like a textbook case of kidnapping to me.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by NYCFarmboy:
hogwash...if he is President he can do whatever he wants.

he left to save his own skin. Now that he is safely in some palace somewhere in exile he is whining. I say fly him back to Port Au Prince immediately.

not sure you completely understood my "hogwash". read it again.
If the US kidnapped him out of the country, he'd be in no position to fly back. Further, we know the US is already arranging for his replacement (whether he left voluntarily or not), so he'd have no position to fly back to, regardless. Either way, he is no longer president, so the first part of your post makes no sense.
Or, he could be completely lying about being kidnapped. If he was, and left to save his own skin, as you suggest, then he ALSO would not be in a position to fly back.

In either case, he would not be flying back. So, my point is, "not flying back" does not prove either contention.

reading comprehension is a wonderful thang.

[finboy]

Originally posted by nonhuman:


I doubt, however, that it was us.

Powell said yesterday that it wasn't us. I'll take his word for it.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by finboy:
Powell said yesterday that it wasn't us. I'll take his word for it.

oh, yes. He been so right in the past. Why I remember a speech at the UN....oh, wait. never mind.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
oh, yes. He been so right in the past. Why I remember a speech at the UN....oh, wait. never mind.

lol

[NYCFarmboy]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
not sure you completely understood my "hogwash". read it again.
If the US kidnapped him out of the country, he'd be in no position to fly back. Further, we know the US is already arranging for his replacement (whether he left voluntarily or not), so he'd have no position to fly back to, regardless. Either way, he is no longer president, so the first part of your post makes no sense.
Or, he could be completely lying about being kidnapped. If he was, and left to save his own skin, as you suggest, then he ALSO would not be in a position to fly back.

In either case, he would not be flying back. So, my point is, "not flying back" does not prove either contention.

reading comprehension is a wonderful thang.

Again... if he really wanted to be there, he would still there. There are commercial flights to Haiti.. no one is stopping him from going back.

He should take Maxine Waters & Charlie Rangel with him on the plane back as well...
That way if he was really not being allowed to go back the world would know about it.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by NYCFarmboy:
Again... if he really wanted to be there, he would still there. There are commercial flights to Haiti.. no one is stopping him from going back.

He should take Maxine Waters & Charlie Rangel with him on the plane back as well...
That way if he was really not being allowed to go back the world would know about it.

obviously, you're incapable of understanding my point, so I'll just move on.

[NYCFarmboy]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
obviously, you're incapable of understanding my point, so I'll just move on.

Sorry but my own personal opinion is that your post that the US could have kidnapped him is just not believable.

Aristede is lying.

Of course he can't go back.... my posts that he should fly back are to call him out on that fact.

The US saved his life and now he is blaming the US for doing so.

[Volanges]

It seems "Baby Doc" Duvalier is contemplating a return to Haiti. Life is good.

Oh, and those "rebels" wearing all new military uniforms and new guns who crossed over from the Dominican Republic and residents of Hiniche who heard the whirring of helicopter blades in the night sky... hmmm -- I wonder how a rag tag groups of "rebels" were able to afford all of that?

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by NYCFarmboy:
Sorry but my own personal opinion is that your post that the US could have kidnapped him is just not believable.

Aristede is lying.

Of course he can't go back.... my posts that he should fly back are to call him out on that fact.

The US saved his life and now he is blaming the US for doing so.

that is why I say you obviously do not understand what I'm saying. I have not formed an opinion either way until I get more information. You're assuming I'm assuming he was kidnapped. I'm not.

my POINT, which keeps sailing over your head, is that your claim that he has not flown back does not, indeed, prove Aristede is lying as you claim -- since whether he is lying or not, there would be no reason for him to fly back. You keep making the threat to send him back as proof....but it doesn't logically follow....Let me lay out the possibilities for you:

1. Aristede is lying. the americans are telling the truth, and the coup was directed internally by rebels only....and he allowed himself to be spirited away for his own safety...
FLYING BACK? no. obviously if he's concerned enough for his own safety to leave, he will not fly back. you correctly point out he would not fly back under this circumstance. HOWEVER, all the following possibilities preclude a trip back as well....
2. Aristede is telling the truth and the Americans DID kidnap him and spirited him away in order to install the american-backed revolution.
FLYING BACK? no. If he was forcibly removed against his will, he obviously does not have the authority to return himself.
3. Aristede is lying and the Americans did NOT kidnap him but they DID foment the rebellion.
FLYING BACK? no. There is no longer a presidency for him to return to. If the Americans are in control of the rebellion, he would only have to leave again.

Under what possible scenario would he be able to fly back? none. That's my point. You could very well be correct and possibility #1 be the truth, but the flying back is a pointless proof to use as it remains true no matter what happened that he has no authority, opportunity or desire to return at this point.

I edited to add a missing "not" which changed the meaning of a sentence back to its intended purpose.

[Lerkfish]

interesting update

But Aristide's statements did create diplomatic worries for his new host country, where he is staying in the official residence of President Francois Bozize.


"The authorities have already called on Aristide to remain calm, to stop making accusations against America," Foreign Minister Charles Wenezoui told The Associated Press.


"We fear that this kind of declaration compromises relations between the Central African Republic and the United States."

Hmmmm. why would CFR fear reprisals for statements they didn't make? This is getting very interesting.

[daimoni]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Aristide: US forced me to leave

Yes, and the US forces me to get dressed and eat my breakfast everyday.

This is very troubling. And calls for a press conference. And more coffee.

[IceBreaker]

who is stopping Aristede from going back?

[ghost_flash]

Originally posted by IceBreaker:
who is stopping Aristede from going back?

I have not seen one bit of information, read more than one or two posts in here that were more than one sentence, and I still have an oppinion.

His own people would probably kill him? Wild guess.

[NYCFarmboy]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:


Under what possible scenario would he be able to fly back? none. That's my point. You could very well be correct and possibility #1 be the truth, but the flying back is a pointless proof to use as it remains true no matter what happened that he has no authority, opportunity or desire to return at this point.

You think it is a possiblity he was kidnapped, that is your opinion. I disagree.

Aristede is free to go back right now. No one is stopping him but his own self doing.

[Spliffdaddy]

Heck, I'll even buy his airline ticket.