[dhinkel]

I don't know why everyone is surprised by the recent surge in anti-semitism at the EU. The idea of the European Union is inspired by fascism. Both Hitler and Mussolini dreamed of a united Europe.

Kenneth Clarke, who was Michael Howard's main foe in the battle for leadership of the Conservatives, is a extreme pro-EU supporter, who once lead a purge of Jews from the Cambridge Union. He also was a supporter of Oswald Mosley , notorious leader of the British Union of Fascists - in fact, Clarke got most of his ideas about Europe from Mosley.


http://www.antiwar.com/goldstein/g061801.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Clarke

[voodoo]

You are a riot dude

[lil'babykitten]

So uh....I got Pepsi, Oreocookies and some dried apricots <--they make you hyper.
Please bring food to the party.

[voodoo]

This party needs bottled water. Yes.

[theolein]

I was gonna watch this one as well, but I think it's not going to be that exiting.

::grabs lbk's oreocookies and runs off::

[chris v]

dhinkel caused by genetic defect!

Mmmmm.... pizza.

CV

[Logic]

Originally posted by theolein:
I was gonna watch this one as well, but I think it's not going to be that exiting.

::grabs lbk's oreocookies and runs off::

:trips theo, grabs oreos and eats them:

[lil'babykitten]

Good job I brought a whole box of them cookies then, innit?!
Piggies!

:Opens up apricots mmmm:

And before anyone asks - NO!

[fizzlemynizzle]

Emus on the loose

[chris v]

Cuidado! Alla es Llamas!

CV

[DeathToWindows]

death slaps dhinkel up the head and crushes a coke can in his ear

[Millennium]

Originally posted by chris v:
Cuidado! Alla es Llamas!

Wouldn't that be "¡Cuidado! ¡Allá hay llamas!"? Which is even more of a tongue-twister anyway?

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by Logic:
:trips theo, grabs oreos and eats them:

I'm not going down without a fight

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Wouldn't that be "¡Cuidado! ¡Allá hay llamas!"? Which is even more of a tongue-twister anyway?

Me llamas voodoo.

[Spheric Harlot]

Methinks Mr. Hinkel doth play with us.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Methinks Mr. Hinkel doth play with us.

Of course. He shows no character facets. Nothing. Like a bot.


Europe is Evil Dave... Dave? Are you there Dave?

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Methinks Mr. Hinkel doth play with us.

Where can you get the movie? I desperately wanted to see "The Great Dictator", but I haven't found it.

[theolein]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Methinks Mr. Hinkel doth play with us.

Methinks thou dost have reason to believe such a thing.

[chris v]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Wouldn't that be "¡Cuidado! ¡Allá hay llamas!"? Which is even more of a tongue-twister anyway?

It was a direct quote from a Python episode, featuring bad Spanish translations. I can't be arsed to find the upside down exclamation point, so sue me. I have never heard "hay" used like that in Mexico, though. "Hay Llamas alla" would be more like it.

CV

[Developer]

[voodoo]

Richtich Developer.

[gadster]

Originally posted by dhinkel:
I don't know why everyone is surprised by the recent surge in anti-semitism at the EU. The idea of the European Union is inspired by fascism. Both Hitler and Mussolini dreamed of a united Europe.

Kenneth Clarke, who was Michael Howard's main foe in the battle for leadership of the Conservatives, is a extreme pro-EU supporter, who once lead a purge of Jews from the Cambridge Union. He also was a supporter of Oswald Mosley , notorious leader of the British Union of Fascists - in fact, Clarke got most of his ideas about Europe from Mosley.


http://www.antiwar.com/goldstein/g061801.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Clarke

OK.

A different tack.

The so-called rise in anti-Semitism in Europe, and indeed around the whole world, is not something that is happening in a vacuum. Under Sharon – Israel, the State – is pursuing some seriously ugly policies. The criticism of current Israeli policies is not based on a racial agenda, rather, it is a political agenda. And criticism of current Israeli policies is not without merit. And criticism of current Israeli policies is in no way anti-Semitic. No way at all.

To declare 'anti-Semitism' is to ignore what could be valid arguments.

You can't hide behind the Holocaust forever.

[vmarks]

However, when the response to political action takes on racial response, it IS anti-semitism, and goes hand in hand with those who veil their hatred in anti-Israel sentiment.

gadster says
you can't hide behind the Holocaust forever.

Nobody's hiding. The Jews and Israelis aren't, but all it takes for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing. And remember, it is Arafat's PA that still officially endorses the Nazi policies of extermination of all Jews. (yes, I can document that.)

That EU Report on the rise of anti-semitism wasn't just blowing smoke, after all.

It is easy to blame the rise on the Sharon government, but the truth is this: Sharon knows he's on the way out, and that this is the last time he will be of any importance in Israeli politics. He's using this to make leaps forward that he could never before have risked, including making a policy of withdrawal a reality, having given up almost 400 terrorist prisoners, having complied with the demands of the Hudna, which was reached without any Israeli input, all of which were not something you'd expect of someone allegedly right-wing. His government is even going forward with plans to use money siezed from terrorists to improve Palestinian schools and infrastructure. It's an amazing set of actions for a country to give to an insurgency that has declared and initiated war on it.

It's called leadership, and it's making people in right-wing parties uncomfortable, but as Sharon has said, this is not the seventies, and what was right then, is not necessarily the answer now.

Of course, for those who like nothing more than to demonize Sharon, they'll never see beyond their own hatred of the man and the progress he is working to bring.

META: I truly dislike having to post in a dhinkel-lunacy-thread but even in the most wild lunacy, there sometimes is found a kernel of truth. I absolutely disagree with the 'facist-inspired' hoohah he's claiming. The EU was an economic entity that has since become a political one. Now I go to try and scrub the stench off.

[gadster]

Originally posted by vmarks:
However, when the response to political action takes on racial response, it IS anti-semitism, and goes hand in hand with those who veil their hatred in anti-Israel sentiment.

I don't get what you mean here. Can you please elaborate.

[einmakom]

[bstone]

Originally posted by gadster:
Under Sharon – Israel, the State – is pursuing some seriously ugly policies. The criticism of current Israeli policies is not based on a racial agenda, rather, it is a political agenda.

I wonder if you have your facts straight. Sharon is actually taking steps to pull Israeli settlers from the Gaza Strip (a good first step, I think you would think). Indeed, Sharon is taking money once used for Palestinian terrorist groups and putting it forth to Palestinian schools and infastructure. However, praytell, it this "seriously ugly" in regards to national policy?

[vmarks]

Gadster asks
please elaborate

When people say "We do not dislike Jews, we only dislike Zionists" there's an unspoken completion to that thought:

"We do not dislike Jews, we only dislike Zionists — although to live in Israel is to endorse the Zionist enterprise, and all Jews are implicated, as sympathizers, in the crime that is Israel."


The European Union had suppressed a study it commissioned, because the study blamed the upsurge in anti-Jewish acts on European Muslims — and the European left. They later released the study under criticism of supression, and upon not finding the different results, or something to mitigate the results, they had hoped to find while they delayed.

[Logic]

Interesting, that is just what einmakom just said before he edited his post.

[Developer]

The European Union did not suppress the study. The study was not released, because it was not yet finished.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Logic:
Interesting, that is just what einmakom just said before he edited his post.

Are you sure?

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by vmarks:
The European Union had suppressed a study it commissioned

You know, I'm really getting tired of your ********.

[vmarks]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
You know, I'm really getting tired of your ********.

Yeah, well, I'm tired of the fact that there's a real problem, but people would rather contemplate bellybuttons than talk about it.

None of this changes what the EU's report says.

[lil'babykitten]

Well. If the Israeli government, like vmarks, thinks they're dealing with Nazis we really will never get anywhere.

[vmarks]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Well. If the Israeli government, like vmarks, thinks they're dealing with Nazis we really will never get anywhere.

Sure it does- it can happen two ways:

!) The PA, all Arafat-led orgs, and Palestinians as a whole can reject the policy of extermination they've publicly espoused so far,

or

2) Israel can work towards the absence of violent attacks unilaterally, doing the things detailed above.

[phoenixboy]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Yeah, well, I'm tired of the fact that there's a real problem, but people would rather contemplate bellybuttons than talk about it.

None of this changes what the EU's report says.

do you live in europe? no? then please, stfu. i know many people that aren't anti semitic or anti israel at all (and everywhere i go it seems to be pretty much the same). are there people that have strong anti-zionist points of view? sure, but no more than in the us, or any other country.

people here also seem to have a more "balanced outlook" on issues regarding the palestinian situation. regarding the question of who is right in this conflict, - there obviously isn't an easy answer at all, and the only real "fascist inspired" country in the western world at the moment is the us for it's current regime.

though anti-semitism is terrible and quite aweful on its own, and certainly was the cornerstone of a lot of fascist thought in the 20th century (along with nationalism( national socialism)), the fascism of the 21st century is tied to religious fundamentalism and neo-conservativism (capitalism).

[eklipse]

Originally posted by Logic:
Interesting, that is just what einmakom just said before he edited his post.

Yeah, vmarks seems to have a Clark Kent/Superman kind of thing going on with einmakom - trouble is, his glasses keep falling off.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Sure it does- it can happen two ways:

!) The PA, all Arafat-led orgs, and Palestinians as a whole can reject the policy of extermination they've publicly espoused so far,

You're crazy.
Palestinians as a whole are Nazis? Racism, much?

[Wiskedjak]

If Anti-Semitism is the "cornerstone of the fascist-inspired EU", then accusations of Anti-Semitism are the cornerstone of Israel's tactic to be able to do whatever it wants, even if what it wants is not entirely dissimilar from what Nazi Germany wanted: Lebensraum

[fizzlemynizzle]

Originally posted by vmarks:
When people say "We do not dislike Jews, we only dislike Zionists" there's an unspoken completion to that thought:

"We do not dislike Jews, we only dislike Zionists — although to live in Israel is to endorse the Zionist enterprise, and all Jews are implicated, as sympathizers, in the crime that is Israel."

Do you think saying "I do not dislike Muslims, I only dislike Islamists" espouses the same kind of hidden contempt? Is there any room for Zionist to mean "extremist" like the man that killed Rabin in the same way that Islamist means "extremist" like Osama bin Laden?

full disclosure: I am a very strong proponent of Israel.

[vmarks]

Originally posted by phoenixboy:
do you live in europe? no? then please, stfu.

Ah, the classic "if you don't live there, you haven't got the right to speak."

If that's the standard by which we're supposed to abide, then there should be no discussion on the topic of Palestinian's war against Israel at all.

After all, you don't live there, do you?

Zionist does not mean extremist, and using it to mean that is incorrect.

Clarification for the inobservant: I have no issue with Islam or its practitioners. I have a problem with the concept of dhimmi and with the Arab League, PA, who publicly declare that exterminating Jews is their goal, and the only way to win a Palestinian state.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by vmarks:
I have a problem with the concept of dhimmi and with the Arab League, PA, who publicly declare that exterminating Jews is their goal, and the only way to win a Palestinian state.

And everyone should have a problem with this. I would have a problem with people trying to exterminate all the Palestinians as well.

[Logic]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Are you sure?

Yup.

Just forgot to take a screenshot even if I thought about it.

[eklipse]

Originally posted by vmarks:
...the only way to win a Palestinian state.

Do you think the Palestinians should have their own state?

Would you favor a two-state solution?

[Zimphire]

I would LOVE for them to have a state. It cant be part of Israel though. Sorry.

But it's hard to sympathize with them esp with all the terrorist attacks.

I am betting, now this is just a hunch. If the attacks were stopped, they probably would get their own state.

Imagine that.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I would LOVE for them to have a state. It cant be part of Israel though. Sorry.

Can it at least be the parts of Palestine that Israel took?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I am betting, now this is just a hunch. If the attacks were stopped, they probably would get their own state.

Imagine that.

I'm betting, now this is just a hunch, if the attacks were stopped, Israel would take actions to reignite Palestinian terrorism (again). Palestinian terrorism is good for certain Israeli political parties.

[bstone]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
You're crazy.
Palestinians as a whole are Nazis? Racism, much?

Arafat gets on national PA television and shouts "Jihad! Jihad! Jihad! Make the streets of Jerusalem flow red with the blood of the Jews!"

How is this not taking upon an agenda not too dissimilar from the Nazis?

[vmarks]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Can it at least be the parts of Palestine that Israel took?

Where exactly would that be? Gaza and the West Bank belonged to Jordan and Egypt.

In the PLO charter, Palestinians absolutely denied any claim to those lands.

The PLO was created at an Arab summit meeting in 1964.

This date is quite significant. In 1964, Israel did not control the disputed Judea-Samaria (West Bank) and Gaza territories. Not a single Jewish settlement existed in those areas. So, we can ask the question: in its original, 1964 founding Charter, what was the position of the PLO towards those territories?

“Article 24: This Organization does not exercise any territorial sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, on the Gaza Strip or in the Himmah Area.”

In other words, when Egypt and Jordan owned, respectively, Gaza and the West Bank, the PLO stated that these countries were the rightful owners of those two territories. This means either (1) that the PLO did not consider these lands to be Palestinian lands, or (2) that it did not mind foreigners ruling Palestinian lands.

It is only after 1967 that the PLO belatedly discovered that these territories were ‘Palestinian,’ after all. The Charter was amended in 1968, as Arafat’s forces were taking control of the PLO (Arafat was elected PLO chairman in 1969).

What happened? In 1967, Israel’s Arab neighbors provoked a war that had the goal of genocide against the Jews, but they lost, which resulted in Israeli control of the Gaza strip and the West Bank.

In a spectacular move, unprecedented in history, Israeli Prime Minister Levi Eshkol, though victorious against a genocidal provocation, offered to return those territories in exchange for a mere promise of peace. The Egyptian president Gamal Abdel Nasser, however, refused to talk.

Israel was left with no choice but to keep those territories. And it was then that the PLO decided these had now become 'Palestinian' lands, which needed to be liberated. Thus began the so-called "occupation."

Conventional wisdom has it that a Palestinian state must be created out of the West Bank and Gaza. Such a state, formed from precisely these areas, is presented as a response to long-established Palestinian demands. But then, why didn’t Palestinian leaders, before 1967, demand that Egypt and Jordan set up a Palestinian state in these lands? Why did they, even then, use the Judea-Samaria (West Bank) and Gaza areas, as well as Syrian territory, to launch terrorist attacks on Israel?

Could it be that the PLO, which was "created at an Arab summit meeting in 1964," and which is entirely dependent on money from Saudi Arabia and other rich Arab states (most of them closely allied with the NATO countries!), is really a tool of Arab policy? A policy which has as its central focus "the destruction of the State of Israel"?

Is that why, when you go to the Palestinian Authority's official Website (the PA is an offspring of the PLO), you see a map of the Levant in which Israel simply does not exist? That is, a map in which the area of Israel, plus Gaza and the West Bank are simply and jointly labeled 'Palestine'?
See map at : http://www.ipc-ps.info/ipc_a/ipc_a-1/a_map/pal-e.html

[bstone]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
I'm betting, now this is just a hunch, if the attacks were stopped, Israel would take actions to reignite Palestinian terrorism (again). Palestinian terrorism is good for certain Israeli political parties.

Couldn't be further from the truth. In the 90s when the PA began to negotiate the Israeli goverment responsed in kind. This went on for several years. It was entirely the Palestinian side which ceased the peace process and instead began the terrorist process.

[Developer]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Is that why, when you go to the Palestinian Authority's official Website (the PA is an offspring of the PLO), you see a map of the Levant in which Israel simply does not exist? That is, a map in which the area of Israel, plus Gaza and the West Bank are simply and jointly labeled 'Palestine'?
See map at : http://www.ipc-ps.info/ipc_a/ipc_a-1/a_map/pal-e.html

Well, it is labeled as "historical map". See this map as well:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0dt10