[Troll]

I had a tense few hours this morning. Two of my very dearest friends live in Madrid. They both take the train into Atocha station every day. As soon as I heard the news, I called mobiles, fixed lines, sent emails. No reply. Turns out they are both okay. One of them took his motorbike into work and the other was two trains back. Still, reminded me a bit of 9/11; sitting anxiously waiting to hear from friends.

Everyone's still speculating as to whether this is ETA or Al Qaeda or someone else. There is no conclusive evidence either way at this stage. Some even say it might be a mix; the Basques working with the Islamic fundamentalists. There was an arrest a while back of some Islamic suspects who were travelling with an ex Batsuna guy and I've heard ETA referring to Al Qaeda as "the Arab resistance." That would be a pretty scary situation. 2 militant terrorist groups going after the same thing!

Put the AZF threats to the French rail system into perspective too.

What do you guys think? Is this ETA or someone else?

[Logic]

I somehow doubt it's ETA. Doesn't sound like them. Don't they usually target politicians, military and police?

The latest reports I've seen is 170+ dead.

[typoon]

Yes this is really Sad. My thoughts are with the people of Spain. This sounds more like an AlQaeda Attack to me.

[Logic]

Originally posted by typoon:
This sounds more like an AlQaeda Attack to me.

This seems to be more their style than ETA indeed. But the timing is also suspicious. Spain is holding elections on Sunday. If anyone wants to change the government who has been a big supporter of the WoT why do this just before the elections? This will make it certain that the current government stays in place.

[Zimphire]

[Spliffdaddy]

We outnumber terrorists by 10million-to-1

I think it's time we put an end to them.

edit:

You're an idiot if you're trying to rationalize the terrorists' goal.

[Troll]

Originally posted by Logic:
This seems to be more their style than ETA indeed. But the timing is also suspicious. Spain is holding elections on Sunday. If anyone wants to change the government who has been a big supporter of the WoT why do this just before the elections? This will make it certain that the current government stays in place.

ETA also tried the same thing last Christmas eve. That time, the cops got a call ahead of time and the train was evacuated and the bomb defused.

[Troll]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
I think it's time we put an end to them.

I agree with the sentiment, but I'm not sure how your words translate into deeds. What should Spain be doing to deal with ETA?

[Timo]

Horrible news.

[eklipse]

Originally posted by Troll:
I agree with the sentiment, but I'm not sure how your words translate into deeds. What should Spain be doing to deal with ETA?

Creating themselves a little offshore-detention-centre of course!

[Logic]

Originally posted by Troll:
ETA also tried the same thing last Christmas eve. That time, the cops got a call ahead of time and the train was evacuated and the bomb defused.

Yup, that is what they normally do when "attacking" civilians targets. They call ahead to give the police time to evacuate the area. That way they can install fear but no one gets hurt.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by eklipse:
Creating themselves a little offshore-detention-centre of course!

Nah, I was thinking maybe Spain should meet with the terrorists in an effort to better understand their grievances. Then, Spain should take the initiative to change the policies of their government that don't promote the goals of the terrorists.

edit:

after all, terrorists are people too.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
We outnumber terrorists by 10million-to-1

You're an idiot if you're trying to rationalize the terrorists' goal.

Well, to use your own terminology....You're an idiot if you don't try to ascertain the terrorist's goal. How do you expect to fight a WOT if you don't try to understand the motivations or methods of the enemy?

Honestly, that sort of mindless arrogance is what is going to undo us all. Not that I approve of the WOT as its being practiced, AT LEAST if you're going to undertake it, do it intelligently.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Nah, I was thinking maybe Spain should meet with the terrorists in an effort to better understand their grievances. Then, Spain should take the initiative to change the policies of their government that don't promote the goals of the terrorists.

edit:

after all, terrorists are people too.

so...how's that WOT working out for ya? Eliminated terrorism, did ya?

the world is a safer place, is it?

[Spliffdaddy]

omg...I was just kidding.

you said the same thing - but you were serious.

tell me you were just kidding.


edit:

we call that "victim mentality". When "the little guy" is endlessly oppressed by "the big guy". When you have a low opinion of yourself I suppose it would be easy to feel powerless - and support terrorists because you can relate to their plight.

That's the hazard of low self esteem.

[Lerkfish]

=

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
what, that you were an idiot?

you do understand the term "know your enemy", right? Even if you are going to wage a war on terror in a hawkish way, understanding the goals of the terrorists would be vital to combatting them...doncha think?

I didn't say you shouldn't try to understand the terrorists' ultimate goal - I said you would be an idiot to attempt to justify it. The 'goal' is usually a no-brainer...something the terrorists advertise willingly.

[Lerkfish]

=

[Spliffdaddy]

calm down, Lerk.

I was speaking to 'you' in-general. The 'you' that always sides with the underdog regardless of the merit of their goal - simply because of a feeling of self-inferiority.

Not you, specifically.

[ghost_flash]

What does France think about this? What are they going to do about it? Russia?

Let me guess: Nothing. Oh, wait are they owed any money by this terrorist group for weapons?

[Spliffdaddy]

*checks the list*

looks like it's Iceland's turn to solve the next global crisis.

[xi_hyperon]

This is very sad. I feel for those who perished and for the family members left behind.

[Vpro7]

Here we go again with the US desire to link evrey single attoricty to Al-Qaeeda. I was wondering how long it would take for certain Americans to come out with this, and the typical sickening melodrama of likening all terrorist events to 9/11.

This is what it goes like, ETA, a well known separist group has bombed again, the Spanish Government, various ministers have said it was them. The political wing of ETA has not fuyl denied it, but have said they dobt it was ETA. Yet, let's just see how long it takes for the Bush Admin. and the sheep fllowers of them to start saying, 'Oh, it was Al-qaeeda'; then for the mto lessen this to, 'Oh, it was ETA, but Al-Qaeeda supported them'; then this will simmer down to, 'Oh, ETA are Al-Qaeeda sympathisers, so therefore the Arabs are guilty too'

To be honest, it's so sickeningly typical now, everything is Al-Qaeeda, teh Bush bandwagon have done a good job in brainwashing those certain US citizens into believing that the Islamic Demon is now after them, and are behind every little act out there.

Get real.

[Logic]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
*checks the list*

looks like it's Iceland's turn to solve the next global crisis.

You seem obsessed with Iceland.....

This has never been viewed as a global crisis and this will be dealt with like usual. By police actions. I can promise you that Spain will not start bombing Basque and areas of southern France where ETA also is. That is the difference between you Americans and us Europeans(well most of us). We view this as a terrible crime while you think it's an act of war. We deal with this by using the police(and sometimes special forces) while you go chasing the ghost around the world. Take a look at when IRA stopped bombing, and try to learn from it. Here is your chance of actually learning how to deal with this(I hope)

[Vpro7]

Forgot to say, it is ETA behind this, and I'm sure certain groups wil lbe spouting Al-Qaeeda for thier own advantage, but I know it was ETA, so I am content now knowing who is behind it.


Pretty fcuked up since I have family in Bercelona, and Madrid.

[Logic]

Originally posted by Vpro7:
Forgot to say, it is ETA behind this, and I'm sure certain groups wil lbe spouting Al-Qaeeda for thier own advantage, but I know it was ETA, so I am content now knowing who is behind it.


Pretty fcuked up since I have family in Bercelona, and Madrid.

How are you sure it is ETA? This isn't their MO. The leader of their political wing has denied it as well. Unfortunately at the same time he accused the arabs of doing it.......

[palmberg]

I just can't get my mind around how this is supposed to do anything for anyone's "cause." At least Al Queda and other Islamic extremists make it clear that they're just out to kill as many infidels as possible. That I can understand. But if these bombings *are* the work of the ETA, can they reasonably expect that a bomb is any way to get what they want? A bomb doesn't get you the kind of respect you want or need. It's not a realistic bargaining tool for a group already in a position of weakness. I just don't understand it.

[Vpro7]

Originally posted by Logic:
That is the difference between you Americans and us Europeans(well most of us). We view this as a terrible crime while you think it's an act of war. We deal with this by using the police(and sometimes special forces) while you go chasing the ghost around the world. Take a look at when IRA stopped bombing, and try to learn from it. Here is your chance of actually learning how to deal with this(I hope)

That is true, the US is pretty hypocritical in all this. They don't mind allowing US citizens, even politicians to send fund to both the loyalist movements, adn the IRA for years, and yet I have yet to see the British Governemtn bombing the US for supporting terrorism.

[Vpro7]

Originally posted by palmberg:
I just can't get my mind around how this is supposed to do anything for anyone's "cause." At least Al Queda and other Islamic extremists make it clear that they're just out to kill as many infidels as possible. That I can understand. But if these bombings *are* the work of the ETA, can they reasonably expect that a bomb is any way to get what they want? A bomb doesn't get you the kind of respect you want or need. It's not a realistic bargaining tool for a group already in a position of weakness. I just don't understand it.

ETA have a hostory of doing just this, it's election time on Sunday adn they'l lwant maximum exposure to brign their case to light.

ETA might, or might not assume responsibility, they have a ahostory of sometimes denying the more extreme acts of terror, despite the overwhelmign evidence of them behind it.


ON a side note. another thing lots of peopel forget, is that Al-Qaeeda will admit to wha tthe ydo, adn actually put out statement to those acts of terror that ar eascribed to them, but they deny it, such as 9/11, and so on.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by Logic:
I somehow doubt it's ETA. Doesn't sound like them. Don't they usually target politicians, military and police?

The latest reports I've seen is 170+ dead.

Your not the first to say this. From what I read, your 100% right. They normally don't target non-stratigic targets. And definatly wouldn't do something this large scale. They are more like snipers than carpet bombers.

They have no reason to go against civilians. Look at the cause behind their organization... their target by definition, is historically what they go after, police, military, politicians. Their largest civilian attack was in 87, and I think 21 were killed. From what I heard briefly, civilians weren't the target, the means were just in excess for the target. They also always warn of attacks prior (typical of quite a few terrorist groups).. but not this time.

Someone on TV mentioned another smaller group who this would characterize. Don't remember the name though, but they said the group has been silent for several years now.

But then again, terrorists are always named moments after the attack. We started to get names of 9/11 hijackers on the news less than 6 hrs later. Under an hour, it was positively linked to Al Queda according to live reports by every major network. It's an abnormal pattern. Name one, then change it later on. Makes the general public feel better that the government is quick to figure it all out.

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:

You're an idiot if you're trying to rationalize the terrorists' goal.

You rationalize with Bush, considered by many foreign governments post-Iraq to be a terrorist. Including a bulk of Europe

Stop hitting yourself .



I'm going to bet, that this is at a minimum carried out in cooperation with another group. If not carried out by another group completely. I wouldn't rule out Al Queda, or a group linked to them either. It fits their strategy and capabilities as well. Making it a much better match. Considering it's election time. I'll suggest Al Queda, or some pro-saddam group taking part, if not owning this attack. Wanting to send a strong message during election season.

In every way/shape/form it fits Al Queda, or a franchise of theirs. But in no way, does there appear to be a link to ETA from what the news is reporting.


No matter what, I think we will be at a minimum of Orange around election time here in the US. And if Bush wins, it will last a while longer. I wouldn't be shocked if we go even one higher on that BS rating scale.

[Vpro7]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:



Your not the first to say this. From what I read, your 100% right. They normally don't target non-stratigic targets. And definatly wouldn't do something this large scale. They are more like snipers than carpet bombers.

That is so not true, they have a history of killign civilians as wel las politicians. Just last month 2 ETA members were caught in Madrid with a truck load of explosives. They ar eresponsible for boming tourist places in Spain, especially in the North, they have also been behind many many thrteats of violence to civilians areas.

[Troll]

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
What does France think about this?

Let me guess: Nothing. Oh, wait are they owed any money by this terrorist group for weapons?

Why do some people feel compelled to make idiotic posts on topics they have absolutely no clue about?

Go and do some research on ETA and the Basques. Check what ETA wants, where they want it and who their enemies are. Then come back here and tell us why France is funding them and what it isn't doing about ETA.

[palmberg]

Originally posted by Vpro7:
ETA have a hostory of doing just this, it's election time on Sunday adn they'l lwant maximum exposure to brign their case to light.

Right. But where's the logic? The reasoning behind using 13 bombs to make your opponent change its mind?

[theolein]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Nah, I was thinking maybe Spain should meet with the terrorists in an effort to better understand their grievances. Then, Spain should take the initiative to change the policies of their government that don't promote the goals of the terrorists.

edit:

after all, terrorists are people too.

Spain is very active against both Al Qaida and ETA and even banned the Basque Nationalist Party last year, all of which you would know if you actually READ the news once instead of skimming through it looking for more fuel for your xenophobic VOMIT.

How about some RESPECT FOR THE DEAD ?

[Vpro7]

I can't believ this, the propoganda rumour mil is working. Peopel saying it is Al-Qaeeda, despite the Spanish Governmet making it clear they suspect ETA.

Look, ETA have been making threats afor the last 2 months about bombing Madrid, their operatives were caught with a tuck load of explosives.

So it seems that all teh evidence so far points to ETA, not Al-Qaeda, that Al-Qaeeda is beihnd it is just supposition based on the medias willingness to point out that they are behined everythign these days.

[Vpro7]

Originally posted by palmberg:
Right. But where's the logic? The reasoning behind using 13 bombs to make your opponent change its mind?

They never use logic, they've been at this for 30 years with not a gain. They use violence to achive their goals, and that hasn't changed.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by palmberg:
Right. But where's the logic? The reasoning behind using 13 bombs to make your opponent change its mind?

That's easy.

If the vast majority of people don't agree with your opinion - you can expend a lot of effort trying to persuade them, or you can take the lazy way out and make them choose between your way or death.

[ghost_flash]

Isn't ETA a seperatist Bath party? Isn't that the same party that Saddam came from?

Just curious, I really don't know, so will defer to those more educated in this matter.

-GF

[Vpro7]

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
Isn't ETA a seperatist Bath party? Isn't that the same party that Saddam came from?

Just curious, I really don't know, so will defer to those more educated in this matter.

-GF

lol, no. They are Basque separisits.


Here's what Aznar has just said.

Mr Aznar did not mention Eta by name but his interior minister, Angel Acebes, said there was no doubt the separatist group was responsible.

"Eta had been looking for a massacre in Spain. Unfortunately, today it achieved its goal," Mr Acebes said after an emergency cabinet meeting called to discuss the deadliest terror attack on Spanish soil.

[Timo]

Originally posted by theolein:
How about some RESPECT FOR THE DEAD ?

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by theolein:
Spain is very active against both Al Qaida and ETA and even banned the Basque Nationalist Party last year, all of which you would know if you actually READ the news once instead of skimming through it looking for more fuel for your xenophobic VOMIT.

How about some RESPECT FOR THE DEAD ?

How is my asking for Spain to appease the terrorists somehow disrepectful to the dead?

edit:

I thought I was SAVING LIVES.

[theolein]

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
What does France think about this? What are they going to do about it? Russia?

Let me guess: Nothing. Oh, wait are they owed any money by this terrorist group for weapons?

I suppose Russia could nuke them, but then again they have enough problems of their own coping with the Chechens, who don't seem to stop bombing the russians even after the Russians killed of a couple of hundreds of thousands. Strange isn't it how genocide doen't stop terrorism, but a semi-illiterate religious zealot who masturbates to violent religious propaganda movies wouldn't recognise or even understand that, now would he?

[Troll]

One of my Saudi Arabian contacts has already told me that it was the CIA and that they did this to make sure that Aznar got reelected on an anti-terrorism ticket. It's amazing how quickly myths replace news in the Arab world!

[ghost_flash]

Originally posted by theolein:
I suppose Russia could nuke them, but then again they have enough problems of their own coping with the Chechens, who don't seem to stop bombing the russians even after the Russians killed of a couple of hundreds of thousands. Strange isn't it how genocide doen't stop terrorism, but a semi-illiterate religious zealot who masturbates to violent religious propaganda movies wouldn't recognise or even understand that, now would he?

Thanks for you considerate reply to my post.

[phoenixboy]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
we call that "victim mentality". When "the little guy" is endlessly oppressed by "the big guy". When you have a low opinion of yourself I suppose it would be easy to feel powerless - and support terrorists because you can relate to their plight.

That's the hazard of low self esteem.

that sentiment is just so asinine, it's beyond words. what happened in madrid today was really terrible. and as far as justification goes, just look at the passage i quoted - there you have your explanation and your justification. bravo, you idiot!

edit: the us was founded by a bunch of terrorists (by your definition!)

[Developer]

Originally posted by Logic:
I somehow doubt it's ETA. Doesn't sound like them. Don't they usually target politicians, military and police?

ETA has been targeting civilians before. Tourists often. I'm pretty sure it was them.

[Spliffdaddy]

gee whiz, theo...

when the world offers advice to the US for dealing with terrorism you think we oughtta take it...but when somebody offers Spain some advice you throw a hissy fit.

[Developer]

Originally posted by Logic:
Yup, that is what they normally do when "attacking" civilians targets. They call ahead to give the police time to evacuate the area. That way they can install fear but no one gets hurt.

Don't paint a nicer picture of ETA as they are. ETA are a group of brutal murderers.

[Troll]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
gee whiz, theo...

when the world offers advice to the US for dealing with terrorism you think we oughtta take it...but when somebody offers Spain some advice you throw a hissy fit.

Well, yours is good advice. Unfortunately, it's been tried in Spain and it hasn't worked. Spain has tried to negotiate with the Basques.

[ghost_flash]

Here is some more information about ETA, as I was prompted to do my own bit of research. Have they taken credit for these bombings? BTW: The article does state that they have no ties to Al-queda, but there are cells in Spain. I think that would be a mute point, as they probably have cells in just about every country.

http://cfrterrorism.org/groups/eta.html

I was just watching CNN, and they have not said that ETA is confirmed to be the responsible group for these horrible bombings.

A final note: I would not compare this in the least to the 9/11 bombings as this will not have anywhere near the same effect as the 9/11 bombings had on the USA. I am seriously wondering who will come to Spain's aid. I am clearly thinking of France and Russia here. Theolin's personal problems with Christianity aside, does anyhone have anything intelligent to add to this?