[roger_ramjet]

China, France Hold Naval Drill Before Taiwan Vote
Mon Mar 15, 2004 02:13 AM ET

By Benjamin Kang Lim

BEIJING (Reuters) - China and France will hold rare joint naval exercises off the mainland's eastern coast on Tuesday, just four days before Beijing's rival, Taiwan, holds presidential elections.

China's official Xinhua news agency made no link between the exercises off Qingdao -- about 780 miles from Taiwan's northernmost point -- and the election.

But the show of military strength and solidarity signaled China's desire to isolate the self-governing island before the vote and its first-ever referendum, which Beijing views as a provocative step toward independence.

"It's the biggest in scale and the most substantial in content of an exercise between the Chinese navy and a foreign navy," Xinhua said on Monday, quoting Ju Xinchun, the captain of the destroyer "Harbin."

"Through this joint exercise, we hope to learn the French navy's combat training experience and combat thought," Ju was quoted as saying.

The drills would be China's first to be conducted on the high seas with a major Western power, Xinhua said. China held its first-ever joint naval exercises with Pakistan last October.

French President Jacques Chirac, keen to strengthen ties with China and win French business a firm footing in the rapidly growing market, sided with China in January in opposing Taiwan President Chen Shui-bian's plan to hold a referendum on missile defense alongside presidential elections on March 20...

[ghost_flash]

Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
China, France Hold Naval Drill Before Taiwan Vote
Mon Mar 15, 2004 02:13 AM ET

By Benjamin Kang Lim

France sucks. Fcuking froggies should find their own hole and crawl in.

[Ayelbourne]

"You have meddled with the primal forces of nature, Mr. Beale, and I won't have it. Is that clear? You think you've merely stopped a business deal? That is not the case. The Arabs have taken billions of dollars out of this country, and now they must put it back. It is ebb and flow, tidal gravity. It is ecological balance. You are an old man who thinks in terms of nations and peoples. There are no nations. There are no peoples. There are no Russians. There are no Arabs. There are no third worlds. There is no West. There is only one holistic system of systems; one vast, interwoven, interacting, multivaried, multinational dominion of dollars." - Paddy Chayefsky, Network

[Troll]

Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
China, France Hold Naval Drill Before Taiwan Vote
Mon Mar 15, 2004 02:13 AM ET

By Benjamin Kang Lim

Care to explain the problem here? Given that China will be a superpower within 15 years, this is good move by the French.

[ghost_flash]

Originally posted by Troll:
Care to explain the problem here? Given that China will be a superpower within 15 years, this is good move by the French.

Oh, then by that logic. One could assert that it was ok to appease terrorists by voting for whoever will give them exactly what they want. Hey, they'll be in power, let's get in bed with them. Or, how about this? Do you have the same respect for the Jews that were Nazi sympathizers during WWII? They turned their neighbors in to save their own arses. When does it end? When do spineless people/countries have to actually take a stand.

Right. In 15 years they'll be a superpower. The cowards mantra.



Maybe it means something else in French... Let me give it a try:

Nous sommes justes s'alignant avec la superpuissance du futur pour sauver nos propres ânes, mais ne la prenons pas que la manière, ce que voulons dire vraiment nous est nous prennent une position héroïque dans l'intéret de notre propre futur.

Translated:

We give up.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Troll:
Care to explain the problem here? Given that China will be a superpower within 15 years, this is good move by the French.

Preemptive surrender?

[voodoo]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Preemptive surrender?

Well ok that made me smile

[Troll]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Preemptive surrender?

Lol! I actually meant it was a good move from a real politik perspective. France has been courting China for some time now.

[roger_ramjet]

Originally posted by Troll:
Lol! I actually meant it was a good move from a real politik perspective...

At Taiwan's expense!!!

[voodoo]

Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
At Taiwan's expense!!!

Just don't lose sleep over the issue mkay ?

[BRussell]

Well at least they're clear whose side they're on.

But I don't understand American policy on Taiwan.

1. We say we would defend Taiwan from Chinese invasion, but
2. we maintain a "one China" policy that doesn't recognize an independent Taiwan.

I don't get it. Whose side are we on?

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Troll:
Lol! I actually meant it was a good move from a real politik perspective. France has been courting China for some time now.

Henry Kissinger and Richard Nixon practiced Realpolitik and played the China card as a weapon against the Soviet Union. You could defend that because of the nature of the Soviet Union, and the mutual threat. Who is France playing the China card against? A small embattled democracy.

What France is doing is utterly shameless. I have no problem with engaging the Chinese Communists. That's mutually beneficial, and helps China open up, which is good for freedom in China, reduces tensions, and therefore is good for international stability. But actively sending armed forces to help intimidate a democracy is beneith contempt. It does the opposite of all those things.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by BRussell:
I don't get it. Whose side are we on?

Officially, neither.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Officially, neither.

It seems to me like we're pretty clearly on China's side. Granted we're not engaging in cooperative military exercises with them , but our policy is to not recognize Taiwan and not support their independence, which is exactly what China wants from us.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by BRussell:
It seems to me like we're pretty clearly on China's side. Granted we're not engaging in cooperative military exercises with them , but our policy is to not recognize Taiwan and not support their independence, which is exactly what China wants from us.

It's true that in recognizing China the US had to derecognize Taiwan. However, when that happened, the Congress passed the Taiwan Relations Act. It seeks to guarantee Taiwanese de facto independence short of the (former) treaty that absolutely committed the US to defending Taiwan.

Basically, the US balances arms sales to mainland China with sales to Taiwan. The idea is to maintain rough parity, or at least enough so that Taiwan can defend itself but not so much that mainland China could feel threatened. Since the 1989 Tiananmen massacre, the US also imposed an arms embargo on mainland China. You might recall we discussed that when France and (IIRC) Germany decided to resume flogging arms to China.

So, yes, the US tilted symbolically toward China when it adopted the One China policy, but that is not the same thing as tilting practically. Also, both the China's also officially maintain that there is only one China.

This does not alter France's basically irresponsible move. I can see no non-heinous justification for what they are doing. It is simply seeking profit.

[Troll]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
This does not alter France's basically irresponsible move. I can see no non-heinous justification for what they are doing. It is simply seeking profit.

I don't think that if you asked anyone at the French Foreign Service whether this was intended to intimidate Taiwan, they'd say yes. At the same time, I don't think it's nice to intimidate Taiwan either so I agree with you there. I disapprove in that respect too.

However, Taiwan really has no leg to stand on here. You complain about intimidation of a democracy, but the US doesn't recognise the democracy you seek to protect. To all intents and purposes, it's a province of a country that has asked France to participate in these manouevres. Would the US refuse to conduct military training activities with France off the coast of France if the people of Brittany or the Basques suggest that they would feel intimidated by them?

I don't see a major shift here. Worst case scenario, Taiwan is intimidated by France's actions into linking up with China again. Which is what France and the US want to see happen anyway.

For me the real problem here is that France is going too fast. The Chinese need to improve their human rights track record before you do something like this. They should have held back this piece of candy for longer. You're more positive than I am about this opening China up and reducing tensions.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Troll:
Worst case scenario, Taiwan is intimidated by France's actions into linking up with China again. Which is what France and the US want to see happen anyway.

I can think of worst case scanrios much less benign than that. France is basically meddling in a region in which it has no stake. If they help cause a shooting war, you can bet that they will leave pronto. They would not stick around to fix the mess they help create. Taiwan probably knows this. I'm sure they understand that France wouldn't join with China in an actual attack when it would likely result in a direct war involving the United States. I don't think eihter China nor France want that. What is worrying, however, is that France's actions, and especially the arms sales, could embolden China. That's not a good thing. It's better to try to maintain the status quo rather than to provoke or encourage either side.

It's true that the US favors reunification. But not at the cost of extinguishing Taiwanese democracy. The optimal result would be for reunification to take place after China reforms itself. Or for a federal union to be created. Neither seem to be on the horizon at the moment. Unfortunately, what is potentially on the horizon is a declaration of independence. I personally think Taiwan has every right to make clear de jure what already exists de facto. Taiwan meets all the definitions of a state. It's only not recognized out of deference to a corrupt dictatorship. However, any such declaration would certainly result in a war, which I hope nobody wants.

Again, I think that none of this matters to France. They just see Euros.

And to clarify, I don't think that this will reduce tensions. I was talking about regular, non-military trade.

[kvm_mkdb]

Originally posted by BRussell:
It seems to me like we're pretty clearly on China's side. Granted we're not engaging in cooperative military exercises with them , but our policy is to not recognize Taiwan and not support their independence, which is exactly what China wants from us.

It's a little more complex than that. Taiwan wants to be recognized as the 'Republic of China', which is unreasonable - and yeah, the US is one of the few countries recognizing it.

BOT:

I really can't see what's the big deal here. The shooting war scenario sounds very unlikely and it doesn't appear to be any kind of 'meddling in a region in which it has no stake'.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by kvm_mkdb:
It's a little more complex than that. Taiwan wants to be recognized as the 'Republic of China', which is unreasonable - and yeah, the US is one of the few countries recognizing it.

The US does not recognize Taiwan. Get your facts right.

[ghost_flash]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
The US does not recognize Taiwan. Get your facts right.

My powerbook is made there... I recognize it. I'm American. I guess we do recognize.
Word.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
My powerbook is made there... I recognize it. I'm American. I guess we do recognize.
Word.

Maybe you are confused by what it meant by "recognition." Taiwan exists. That is simply a fact. So is the fact we all trade with it. So does mainland China for that matter. But the US does not extend diplomatic recognition to the government of Taiwan. The US does not consider Taiwan to be a separate state from China.

[ghost_flash]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Maybe you are confused by what it meant by "recognition." Taiwan exists. That is simply a fact. So is the fact we all trade with it. So does mainland China for that matter. But the US does not extend diplomatic recognition to the government of Taiwan. The US does not consider Taiwan to be a separate state from China.

I get it. I just don't care.

[itai195]

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
I get it. I just don't care.

Unfortunately, diplomatic recognition is one of those very important and yet utterly boring subjects...

[villalobos]

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
Maybe it means something else in French... Let me give it a try:

Nous sommes justes s'alignant avec la superpuissance du futur pour sauver nos propres ânes, mais ne la prenons pas que la manière, ce que voulons dire vraiment nous est nous prennent une position héroïque dans l'intéret de notre propre futur.

Translated:

We give up.

Your French is, hmmmm, very approximate to say the least.

[ghost_flash]

Originally posted by villalobos:
Your French is, hmmmm, very approximate to say the least.

Well, if it were "my" French it would be disgustingly less approximate.
I admit it. I used an online translator. It was for effect only, but I think it worked.

[kvm_mkdb]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
The US does not recognize Taiwan. Get your facts right.

In Jan. 1951 the US announced that it would only recognize the KMT in Taiwan as the sole representative of mainland China. In 1954 the US and Nationalist Chinese governments signed a mutual Defense Treaty. In 1972, US Pres. Richard Nixon visited the People's Republic of China (mainland - PRC) and agreed to gradually withdraw US military forces from Taiwan. During the 1970's a number of nations ended their diplomatic relations with Taiwan and established ties directly with the PRC.

http://www.atlapedia.com/online/countries/taiwan.htm

Did the 1972 agreement void the 1951 recognition? I wasn't aware of that.

[itai195]

Carter withdrew recognition in 1979 when he had the US formally recognize the People's Republic of China.

[ghost_flash]

Originally posted by itai195:
Carter withdrew recognition in 1979 when he had the US formally recognize the People's Republic of China.

Wasn't he a Democrat?

[kvm_mkdb]

Originally posted by itai195:
Carter withdrew recognition in 1979 when he had the US formally recognize the People's Republic of China.

Thanks.

[itai195]

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
Wasn't he a Democrat?

What difference does it make?

[Powerbook]

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
I get it. I just don't care.

THAT's my American! Bright, informed and responsible! *pat**pat*


PB.

[theolein]

Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
China, France Hold Naval Drill Before Taiwan Vote
Mon Mar 15, 2004 02:13 AM ET

By Benjamin Kang Lim

I agree that this is disgusting. I don't know why Chirac is doing this unless he sees some kind of benefit in being closer to China in order to counterbalance the USA's power. If that is the case he is a fu©king idiot, but we knew already knew that. France being cosy with China is only going to benefit China, not France. As for Taiwan, I seem to remember the same crowd that is now baying for France's blood making loud statements about how the US shouldn't support Taiwan anymore....

on this very forum, and not that long ago. But I suppose hypocrisy is the name of the game, innit?

Come to think of it, I even remember your own Prez warning Taiwan not to seek independence recently after a friendly visit from Hu Jintao of China. Shock, next thing we know the US navy will be speaking Mandarin.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by itai195:
What difference does it make?

I know

[voodoo]

Originally posted by theolein:
I agree that this is disgusting. I don't know why Chirac is doing this unless he sees some kind of benefit in being closer to China in order to counterbalance the USA's power. If that is the case he is a fu©king idiot, but we knew already knew that. France being cosy with China is only going to benefit China, not France. As for Taiwan, I seem to remember the same crowd that is now baying for France's blood making loud statements about how the US shouldn't support Taiwan anymore....

on this very forum, and not that long ago. But I suppose hypocrisy is the name of the game, innit?

Come to think of it, I even remember your own Prez warning Taiwan not to seek independence recently after a friendly visit from Hu Jintao of China. Shock, next thing we know the US navy will be speaking Mandarin.

What are you? Five?

Politics and hypocrisy are not separable. So put a sock in it already!

[theolein]

Originally posted by voodoo:
...

Politics and hypocrisy are not separable. ...

Voodoo and intelligence, however, are.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by theolein:
Voodoo and intelligence, however, are.

On an anonymous computer forum I cut to the chase. I state a simple truth and you prove to me that you have the mentality of a child

I already knew it but I suppose the crowd enjoyed the show.

[theolein]

Originally posted by voodoo:
On an anonymous computer forum I cut to the chase. I state a simple truth and you prove to me that you have the mentality of a child

I already knew it but I suppose the crowd enjoyed the show.

Voodoo, if I've got the mentality of a child then you must somehow be typing this from the womb.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by theolein:
Voodoo, if I've got the mentality of a child then you must somehow be typing this from the womb.

AirPort.

Not a snappy comeback there theolein, but I'll cut you a slack since you were under pressure from a smarter person

[ghost_flash]

Originally posted by theolein:
Voodoo, if I've got the mentality of a child then you must somehow be typing this from the womb.

No. I think you are both two senile old nutballs typing these messages from your retirement home. You might even be in the same complex... I hope you don't realize it though. Can you imagine? Rumble in the old people's home. Peas and Carrots flying across the table.

And the pudding! Everywhere.

[theolein]

Originally posted by voodoo:
AirPort.

Not a snappy comeback there theolein, but I'll cut you a slack since you were under pressure from a smarter person

The Surgeon General has warned that using Apple's Airport™ from within the womb can be dangerous to the unborn child. Birth defects such as mental retardation have been known to occur.

[hyteckit]

theolin and voodoo could be the same person with multiple personalities. hehe..

[villalobos]

Originally posted by theolein:
I agree that this is disgusting. I don't know why Chirac is doing this unless he sees some kind of benefit in being closer to China in order to counterbalance the USA's power.

Actually France is seemingly pushing right now to lift the embargo on weapon sale to China from within the European Community. There is just too much money to be made in China to ignore it.

villa

[roger_ramjet]

Originally posted by theolein:
... As for Taiwan, I seem to remember the same crowd that is now baying for France's blood making loud statements about how the US shouldn't support Taiwan anymore....

on this very forum, and not that long ago. But I suppose hypocrisy is the name of the game, innit?

I suppose making bullsh!t accusations is the name of the game, isn't it? I never said such a thing. Moreover, I never would have said such a thing or anything even remotely like that.

[theolein]

Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
I suppose making bullsh!t accusations is the name of the game, isn't it? I never said such a thing. Moreover, I never would have said such a thing or anything even remotely like that.

To put this in context, it was in the thread on China vs. Taiwan when Hu Jintao, the Chinese PM, visited the US last year and GW made a statement warning Taiwan not to seek independence.

No, it wasn't you personally, or at least I can't remember you replying to that thread, and I'm not that certain why you regard yourself as a "crowd", but moki did and so did Simey, and they definitely are part of regular, "let's liberate France" crowd, which includes such notables such as yourself, the two mentioned above, Alan (Spliffdaddy) and some others.

In that context, my point was quite accurate.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by theolein:
No, it wasn't you personally, or at least I can't remember you replying to that thread, and I'm not that certain why you regard yourself as a "crowd", but moki did and so did Simey, and they definitely are part of regular, "let's liberate France" crowd, which includes such notables such as yourself, the two mentioned above, Alan (Spliffdaddy) and some others.

In that context, my point was quite accurate.

I'm quite sure I said no such thing. Please don't be putting words in my mouth.

[Logic]

France could be holding this excercise with China as part of the upcoming European version of GPS. China is going to fund it with Europe and thereby have access to the military part of that system.

What I don't get is why all the Americans here are furious over this, while at the same time cheering the US on in it's forcing it's influence around the world, and with a president that has openly declared that he does not want Taiwan to be an independant country.

Ah, well. Nothing new here........

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Logic:
France could be holding this excercise with China as part of the upcoming European version of GPS. China is going to fund it with Europe and thereby have access to the military part of that system.

What I don't get is why all the Americans here are furious over this, while at the same time cheering the US on in it's forcing it's influence around the world, and with a president that has openly declared that he does not want Taiwan to be an independant country.

Ah, well. Nothing new here........

I don't think fury is the right word. Disgust gets closer.

And exactly why would the EU give China access to GPS when it will augment its military capacity? That's stupid and short sighted.

[Logic]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I don't think fury is the right word. Disgust gets closer.

And exactly why would the EU give China access to GPS when it will augment its military capacity? That's stupid and short sighted.

Why so disgusted? This isn't much different from what the US is doing all over the world. Are you disgusted about that too?

Why shouldn't EU give China access to the GPS(I'm trying to find what the real name was) when China is willing to fund part of it as well as is moving slowly into the right direction? Have you followed the development in China the last few years? Human rights are getting better and better, freedom is getting better and better, the market is opening up, private owner ship is getting more and more and so on. I know they are far from being perfect but they are moving in the right direction. Should we not encourage them for doing that?

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Logic:
Why so disgusted? This isn't much different from what the US is doing all over the world. Are you disgusted about that too?

Why shouldn't EU give China access to the GPS(I'm trying to find what the real name was) when China is willing to fund part of it as well as is moving slowly into the right direction? Have you followed the development in China the last few years? Human rights are getting better and better, freedom is getting better and better, the market is opening up, private owner ship is getting more and more and so on. I know they are far from being perfect but they are moving in the right direction. Should we not encourage them for doing that?

As I said above, I don't have a problem with trade with China per se, but arms sales aren't an intelligent way to reward a dictatorship. You might face those arms one day. Or your allies might. But China is so far away from Europe that I don't think that is being thought through. Nor do I think that France really gives a damn about where its arms end up - least of all if they end up facing Americans.

I realize that your basic hope is that China and the EU will eventually form a bloc that will challenge the US militarily. I hope that most Europeans don't share your ambitions. I doubt that there is that much enthusiasm for a return to the Cold War. But I fear that this unbridled Gaulism is taking us there. You need to remind yourselves that other democracies are not your enemy, and that non-democracies are not your friends.

[Logic]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
As I said above, I don't have a problem with trade with China per se, but arms sales aren't an intelligent way to reward a dictatorship. You might face those arms one day. Or your allies might. But China is so far away from Europe that I don't think that is being thought through. Nor do I think that France really gives a damn about where its arms end up - least of all if they end up facing Americans.

First of all, the Galileo system is not primarly meant for the military. It will be dual, where the military components have certain benefits. So this isn't arms sales. And what about US sales, I have seen you defend those like it's OK or even good. Shall I mention a few? We have Uzbekistan, Pakistan, and Kazakhstan. I haven't seen you complain much about that. Actually I've seen you defend that. Where is your disgust with that? Why do you defend that? Isn't it just that you want the US to be unchallenged militarily? Isn't that the only problem you see with this? That EU and China could perhaps follow their own ideals and that Europe could defend itself. Wait, you've been complaining about that for quite some time now. But now you are against it? And one of the reasons we have to find partners for this Galileo system is because the US has "threatened" to cut EU from the GPS system if they follow through with it.

I realize that your basic hope is that China and the EU will eventually form a bloc that will challenge the US militarily. I hope that most Europeans don't share your ambitions. I doubt that there is that much enthusiasm for a return to the Cold War. But I fear that this unbridled Gaulism is taking us there. You need to remind yourselves that other democracies are not your enemy, and that non-democracies are not your friends.

Why would that mean a new Cold War? And it's hilarious and sad at the same time that you try to be the righteous in this with the US' trackrecord in supporting undemocratic regimes and tyrants. So get off your high horse. Democracies are more our friends than yours and when nations show us that they are moving towards more democratic ways and show more respect for human rights we will help them and show them that if they fix their system they will be considered equals in the future.