[Zimphire]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...ds_in_combat_1

NABLUS, West Bank - When 11-year-old Abdullah Quraan agreed to take a stranger's bag across an Israeli military checkpoint, he said he was just trying to earn a little money for his impoverished family. Minutes later, he was detained by Israeli soldiers, accused of unknowingly carrying a bomb for Palestinian militants.

The Israeli military said militants cynically exploit children who usually don't arouse the suspicion of soldiers. A cellphone meant to set off the bomb rang while Abdullah was first detained by soldiers, the army said, meaning the militants were ready to sacrifice the boys to kill soldiers. The trigger failed.

[lil'babykitten]

flamebait.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
flamebait.

Me posting actual events that are happening, that are relevant to our discussions in here is somehow bad?

This isn't a opinion piece. This isn't propaganda. This isn't any conspiracy.

If you feel the truth is flames, I am sorry.

Makes it no less the truth sadly.

How can these people do this? Do they not have any conscience?

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Again, me posting actual events that are happening, that are relevant to our discussions in here is somehow bad?

I thought the same about Logic's thread. I'm just seeing what goes and what doesn't here.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
I thought the same about Logic's thread. I'm just seeing what goes and what doesn't here.

Difference. His was a opinion piece that was hosted by aljazeera that somehow Isreal has special abilities to control the media.

In other words, Propaganda.

My link is factual happenings that indeed are true. No opinion. No propaganda.

[daimoni]

.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by daimoni:
Which people?

The child? The soldiers at the checkpoint? Or the guy holding the cell phone?... Or you?

The people who sent the child off unknowingly to his death just to kill more innocent people.

Like it or not, we're all connected.

As in we are all humans. We are all responsible for our own actions however.

[daimoni]

.

[Logic]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
flamebait.

Link to a one sided argument, no opinion from the original poster etc etc.

Interesting indeed.



BOT: it's horrible that people would do this. This is what makes me wonder where humanity went

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by daimoni:
Ah, just checking. Now tell me, haven't we had this same sort of thread dozens of times before, positing the same question, followed by the same opinions for pages in length?

They should create a special Search Support forum just for you.

You mean like the constant Bush bashing threads that say the same thing over and over again ad-nauseam that I have yet see you berate anyone from posting like you just did me?

The reason this keeps being brought up is some want to paint these people as peace loving individuals that are being made to act this way because of the US's involvement with Israel.

When there no one in here thinks this anymore. Then there will be no need to make such threads.

Specifically, we are all part of a greater Society where some children have to negotiate around bullets, bombs and land-mines... while other children negotiate their monthly iTMS allowance.

And where children have to be weary of adults with backpacks offering money.

Yes, we are all responsible for our own actions. Even 1-Click purchases.

I am glad we can agree.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Logic:
Link to a one sided argument, no opinion from the original poster etc etc.

Interesting indeed.

One sided argument? LOL!!

And do I still have to state my opinion on this?

I believe should be adequate.

[daimoni]

.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
flamebait.

Who, the kid?

[daimoni]

.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Who, the kid?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by daimoni:
That's funny. You paint yourself as a peace loving individual. Except you blame a different group.

I blame people who give kids armed backpacks to blow themselves up indeed.

Rightfully so.

I do not have any desire to do the same to them however.

Backpacks. Can't live with them. Can't live without them.

I have a LLBean one I've had since 1988.

Best I've ever owned.

[SubGeniux]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Who, the kid?

Ah yes, weren't you just talking about theists and how to recognise them as being 'good' people? Seems like you left your so-called spirituality and divine inspiration in some hooker's purse.

[theolein]

Actually, I agree that this was pretty sick. Using a little child as a bomb carrier is fu©king disgusting. It is below contempt.

[Demonhood]

Originally posted by SubGeniux:
Ah yes, weren't you just talking about theists and how to recognise them as being 'good' people? Seems like you left your so-called spirituality and divine inspiration in some hooker's purse.

your attacks will stop now or you can leave.

[SubGeniux]

Originally posted by theolein:
Actually, I agree that this was pretty sick. Using a little child as a bomb carrier is fu©king disgusting. It is below contempt.

And what about the child who is a teen, and has grown up in such an environment that they only see one way out of it through violence? It;'s not so clear cut this, yes, a child doing this is sick, but wha tthe hell is driving them to do it?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by SubGeniux:
And what about the child who is a teen, and has grown up in such an environment that they only see one way out of it through violence? It;'s not so clear cut this, yes, a child doing this is sick, but wha tthe hell is driving them to do it?

We are all responsible for our own actions.

[vmarks]

Originally posted by SubGeniux:
but wha tthe hell is driving them to do it?

Asked and answered.

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...=1#post1881802

If the PNA wanted to prepare Palestinian Arab children to live in peace with a Jewish State - the famous "two-state solution with dignity for all" - they would use their control over education to teach tolerance. But as Marcus demonstrates, the PNA school curriculum teaches hatred of Jews and legitimizes the destruction of Israel. And it has done so *since the very beginning of the "peace" process*, which shows that their intentions were never to make peace. This system is indoctrinating a future genocidal army. Every conceivable symbol is recruited to glorify suicide terrorism: even the children's soccer teams are all named after suicide bombers.

Regarding the media, Itamar Marcus has made a 20-minute film from PNA Television clips.

http://www.isratv.com/video/filmpmwadsl.asx

In one of the clips, two young girls are interviewed concerning their views of Shahida, which means dying for Allah or, in this case, dying as a suicide terrorist. The interviewer asks Walla, a child of 11:

"What are better, peace and full rights for the Palestinian people or Shahida?"

And the child, age 11, answers with a delightful smile, "Shahida. I will achieve my rights after becoming a Shahid." To which the interviewer nods, pleased with the reply.

On Palestinian Authority Television, sermons may routinely be seen which exhort "Blessings to whoever put a belt of explosives on his body or on his sons and plunged into the midst of Jews crying: 'Allah Akbar, praise to Allah'." You may see one such video for yourselves here:

http://stream.realimpact.net/rihurl...daysermon_01.rm

Basel Saleh argues that, "Holding the PLO. . .hostages to their history. . .does not contribute to the understanding of suicide terrorism."

Several people here have echoed Saleh's argument.

What history? This is the PLO's present! And if we don't explain suicide terrorism in its historical and ideological context, what is left? Let me guess: the alleged oppression of the Israelis, which is precisely the argument PLO supporters like to make. But understanding Palestinian suicide terrorism is not so difficult if we examine the facts. It is based on fanaticism taught by Arafat through the PNA's institutions of indoctrination (schools, TV, and mosques). Suicide terrorism is the highest ideal of the embryonic Palestinian state. A future Palestinian state with an army composed of recruits for whom suicide terror is an ecstatic prospect guarantees a catastrophic war, and Palestinian Arabs will hardly benefit from this.

So let me turn Saleh's point around: Why should anybody advocate that ordinary Palestinians be held hostage to the gangsters who run the PLO, and who have not shed their Nazi history? Is the desire to attack the Jews so strong that we cannot even feel compassion for the innocent Palestinian children who will be brought up in a climate of hatred and destruction? How can anybody apologize for these fiends who are actively destroying an entire generation of Palestinians?

Palestinians need a revolution. But not against Israel. Israel is not their problem. Their problem, their very difficult problem, is how to get rid of the fascists who pass for their leaders. When they do so they will be able to work together with others in the region to turn the Middle East into a decent place. So long as Western academics are less interested in explaining antisemitic suicide terrorism than in apologizing for it, we will be giving aid and comfort to these fascists who are not only the worst enemies of the Jews, but of the Palestinians as well.

[daimoni]

.

[SubGeniux]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Asked and answered.

vmarks, I know where you're coming from, but I can't take it seriously. You're leaving a lot of ground to be covered, and debated. For what you have shown, anyone with half a day can demonstrate the complete opposite.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by SubGeniux:
vmarks, I know where you're coming from, but I can't take it seriously. You're leaving a lot of ground to be covered, and debated. For what you have shown, anyone with half a day can demonstrate the complete opposite.

So does that somehow cancel his proof out?

Of course not.

They are being taught such a thing. Admit it or not.

It's simply brainwashing.

Child abuse if you want.

[fizzlemynizzle]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...ds_in_combat_1

NABLUS, West Bank - When 11-year-old Abdullah Quraan agreed to take a stranger's bag across an Israeli military checkpoint, he said he was just trying to earn a little money for his impoverished family. Minutes later, he was detained by Israeli soldiers, accused of unknowingly carrying a bomb for Palestinian militants.

The Israeli military said militants cynically exploit children who usually don't arouse the suspicion of soldiers. A cellphone meant to set off the bomb rang while Abdullah was first detained by soldiers, the army said, meaning the militants were ready to sacrifice the boys to kill soldiers. The trigger failed.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg...&GRid=2284

[vmarks]

Originally posted by fizzlemynizzle:
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg...&GRid=2284

From your own link:

Although he would become the youngest soldier ever to serve in the United States Army, he quickly found the army wasn't interested in boys his age. When he applied to the commander of the 3rd Ohio Regiment, the officer turned him down. He then tried the 22nd Michigan, and its commander said roughly the same thing. Determined, he tagged after the regiment, acted just as the other drummer boys did, and wore down resistance.


That's a world of difference from actively recruiting a boy for death. The US army refused to take the young boy 150 years ago. The terrorists recruited the boy who narrowly escaped being detonated for playing courier as a favor.

But hey, nice try. Good job on the history.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by SubGeniux:
Ah yes, weren't you just talking about theists and how to recognise them as being 'good' people? Seems like you left your so-called spirituality and divine inspiration in some hooker's purse.

No, I was simply being ironic... as apposed to you making it personal and being moronic. See?

[fizzlemynizzle]

Originally posted by vmarks:
From your own link:

Although he would become the youngest soldier ever to serve in the United States Army, he quickly found the army wasn't interested in boys his age. When he applied to the commander of the 3rd Ohio Regiment, the officer turned him down. He then tried the 22nd Michigan, and its commander said roughly the same thing. Determined, he tagged after the regiment, acted just as the other drummer boys did, and wore down resistance.


That's a world of difference from actively recruiting a boy for death. The US army refused to take the young boy 150 years ago. The terrorists recruited the boy who narrowly escaped being detonated for playing courier as a favor.

But hey, nice try. Good job on the history.

way to post half the story.

Though still not regularly enrolled, he performed camp duties and received a soldier's pay, $13 a month, a sum donated by the officers. The next April, at Shiloh, his drum was smashed by an artillery round and he became a minor news item as "Johnny Shiloh," the smallest drummer. More than a year later, at the Battle of Chickamauga, he rode an artillery caisson to the front and wielded a musket trimmed to his size. In one of the Union retreats, a Confederate officer ran after the cannon he rode with. Clem shot him, although it's uncertain if the officer was killed or wounded, and later eluded capture by playing dead. Once reunited with his regiment, he was promoted to the rank of Sergeant, becoming the youngest American soldier ever to hold that rank. His heroic action also earned him national attention and the name, "Drummer Boy of Chickamauga." The remainder of the war found him at Murfreesboro, Lookout Mountain, Missionary Ridge, and Atlanta. He was captured by Confederate forces shortly after Chickamauga, but was exchanged two months later. Twice he had ponies shot from under him, later served as a courier, and was wounded in the hip by a shell fragment. Between Shiloh and Chickamauga he was regularly enrolled in the service and thereafter received his own pay. He was discharged from the Army in 1864, at the age of 13.

The boy was seeing combat before he was 12. He shot and killed a man. He was a sergeant in the army before he was 13. He was captured and exchanged and put back into combat duty. The army made no effort to reject him or forcibly send him home. There are dozens of stories like this from every war.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by SubGeniux:
And what about the child who is a teen, and has grown up in such an environment that they only see one way out of it through violence? It;'s not so clear cut this, yes, a child doing this is sick, but wha tthe hell is driving them to do it?

72 virgins and the glory of Allah. Which has NOTHING to do with what Mohammad taught.

again, for the comprehension challenged.

"Wrong is simply wrong. There are evil people who claim to be Theists and evil people who claim to be Atheists, neither side is cornering the market on ethical and moral behavior. It depends completely on the individual; as a true Humanist will strive to do what's right, so will a true Christian, true Muslim, etc.. Regarding the treatment of others, the core beliefs are the same. Anyone who says or believes otherwise, is a fool."

I can repeat this as often as you like.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
72 virgins and the glory of Allah. Which has NOTHING to do with what Mohammad taught.

again, for the comprehension challenged.

"Wrong is simply wrong. There are evil people who claim to be Theists and evil people who claim to be Atheists, neither side is cornering the market on ethical and moral behavior. It depends completely on the individual; as a true Humanist will strive to do what's right, so will a true Christian, true Muslim, etc.. Regarding the treatment of others, the core beliefs are the same. Anyone who says or believes otherwise, is a fool."

I can repeat this as often as you like.

Please do.

[DeathToWindows]

my usual comment:

ok, the situation in Israel/Palestine is bloody awful and IMHO the only way to begin to fix it is to remove Shiron and Arafat immediately - they're doing utterly no good and have done no good on either side for several years.

on the children|bomb carriers bit - find the reason, deal with that, but this is just wrong. i mean, if you've decided to kill yoursefl for the cause taht's one thing, but to have a kid, who knows nothing of it die or help you is just wrong. And for the record, I do not support palastinian terrorism; for that matter, I'm a reform jew who is disgusted with everything in Israeli politics right now.

Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Please do.

If it weren't so long I'd make it my sig.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by DeathToWindows:
my usual comment:

ok, the situation in Israel/Palestine is bloody awful and IMHO the only way to begin to fix it is to remove Shiron and Arafat immediately - they're doing utterly no good and have done no good on either side for several years.

Take the terrorist supporting Arafat out and you wont have any problems with Sharon.

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by Logic:

BOT: it's horrible that people would do this. This is what makes me wonder where humanity went

We all have those very high expectations about human behavior. But we are always disappointed to see how human it is to be deceitful, manipulative and murderous.

One of our big problems as a species is this illusion that we are better than animals. But we are animals, and very complex ones at that! We tend to put ourselves at the top of life's constuct as a result of evolution as if we should be angels. But evolution means we adapted to our environment (although sacrificing some of it!).

If we survived, it is exactly for the reasons we find ourselves despicable and disgusting!

I am not saying we should not get better than that! Of course we should! But humanity is a species; it is not a set of ideals.

That should never stop us from promoting these "higher ideals" though. I believe we can make it, all of us, or at least with a maximum of people, to wherever we are supposed to go to.

But what is happening these days are acts of humanity. It is part of us, like it or not.

But with hard work, we shall get there! We should not give up! Many have improved their living. What we need to do is make sure we do not do that at the expense of others'.

imho

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Difference. His was a opinion piece that was hosted by aljazeera that somehow Isreal has special abilities to control the media.

In other words, Propaganda.

My link is factual happenings that indeed are true. No opinion. No propaganda.

There is no such thing as a purely factual article. This comes from the fact that as humans, we're limited to only ever really be able to see from our own viewpoints. Sure, we can try to color our own viewpoint and pretend that it's someone else's, but that results in a poor imitation at best and a complete caricature at worst. That's why liberals and conservatives have so much trouble arguing; neither group really understands the other, no matter how much they may claim to. Anyone who converts from one side to the other, regardless of direction, does so at least in part because of a misunderstanding of one side, be it their old or new position.

That inability to truly see beyond one's viewpoint results in the sad fact that every book, article, or other work that you will ever read or write will inevitably be biased one way or another; you can hope to minimize your biases or point them out so that readers will be aware of them, but you cannot eliminate them entirely. Even a camera can only take pictures in the direction you point it.

It is this format -simply linking to article- that lilbabykitten is protesting. Logic's post, as with yours, is nothing more than an article, without even stating the poster's opinion on the piece. There is no reason to consider such a post, no matter its viewpoint, to be anything but flamebait. It was wrong for Logic, and it is wrong for you.

[John F. Smith]

But they're just poor, little ol' freedom fighting militants, Zimphire! They aren't terrorists!

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Millennium:

It is this format -simply linking to article- that lilbabykitten is protesting. Logic's post, as with yours, is nothing more than an article, without even stating the poster's opinion on the piece. There is no reason to consider such a post, no matter its viewpoint, to be anything but flamebait. It was wrong for Logic, and it is wrong for you.

I want a raise of hands on who doesn't know my opinion on this matter.

Seriously.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by John F. Smith:
But they're just poor, little ol' freedom fighting militants, Zimphire! They aren't terrorists!

Yes I know, I've been told.

[gadster]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Yes I know, I've been told.

It must be hard for you, Zim, having to love your enemy, turn the other cheek and, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I don't envy you that.

[JelloBiafra]

Zitfire! Please post more! Pretty please with sugar on top. See if you can fill an entire forum with posts only by yourself! Don't you have anything else to do????????

Ever?

[benb]

Originally posted by gadster:
It must be hard for you, Zim, having to love your enemy, turn the other cheek and, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I don't envy you that.

Not as hard as constantly trying to point out character flaws.

Yea, like you are such a nice person.

[benb]

Originally posted by JelloBiafra:
Zitfire! Please post more! Pretty please with sugar on top. See if you can fill an entire forum with posts only by yourself! Don't you have anything else to do????????

Ever?

Cowardice knows no bounds.

[gadster]

Originally posted by benb:
Not as hard as constantly trying to point out character flaws.

Yea, like you are such a nice person.

I am trying to stop. I'm working on a 12-step course. ZA.

[quandarry]

please ignore this post...thank you.

[lurkalot]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...ds_in_combat_1

NABLUS, West Bank - When 11-year-old Abdullah Quraan agreed to take a stranger's bag across an Israeli military checkpoint, he said he was just trying to earn a little money for his impoverished family. Minutes later, he was detained by Israeli soldiers, accused of unknowingly carrying a bomb for Palestinian militants.

The Israeli military said militants cynically exploit children who usually don't arouse the suspicion of soldiers. A cellphone meant to set off the bomb rang while Abdullah was first detained by soldiers, the army said, meaning the militants were ready to sacrifice the boys to kill soldiers. The trigger failed.

That is a seriously ****ed up terrorist act. To use a child as an unknowing walking bomb puts the person who initiated that attack beyond contempt. What a vile method of terrorist warfare. No excuse. No matter what the "cause".

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by lurkalot:
That is a seriously ****ed up terrorist act. To use a child as an unknowing walking bomb puts the person who initiated that attack beyond contempt. What a vile method of terrorist warfare. No excuse. No matter what the "cause".

Tell me... where were your clothes made?

You may not want to know that some of your nicest clothes were probably made on the cheap by children working for tokens, 12 hours a day, no Union, no bonus, 7 days a week, no vacations, unable to go to school because they have to work to feed their family and themselves.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/ecuador/

http://www.hrw.org/children/labor.htm

http://www.house.gov/bernie/town_mee...n_schrupp.html

[quote}
This is not a new phenomena, one that has recently become a priority for global consideration and global course of action. Unicef's 1997 report on the state of the world's children has focused specifically on the problem of hazardous child labor. Western media has started informing Americans of the conditions of soccer ball workers, soccer ball assemblers in Asia, rug makers in Pakistan, glass makers in India and textile workers in Asia and Central America. These workers are children hired for their low cost and expendable nature, their small fingers, and their inability to organize or question.
(...)
The most obvious examples of overseas sweatshops owned by American-based companies are the Maquiladoras of Central America where textiles are manufactured. 15-year-old girls who work in the Maquilas of Honduras tell how they're forced to take birth control bills on a daily basis and are required to pay for an expensive abortion injection if they do become pregnant. These girls are not allowed to leave each day until they fill a production quota. If a rush order for clothes came in, observers would note these girls entering the Maquilas at 7:00 a.m. and not returning until sometimes as many as 23 hours later. That's a 23-hour workday.

In China, Indonesia, and Pakistan, sporting equipment used in the United States is manufactured by child laborers. Jonathan Silvers wrote the following report in the Atlantic Monthly on soccer ball factories in Pakistan. No amount of preparation could have lessened the shock and revulsion I felt on entering the sporting goods factory in the town of Sialkot where scores of children, most of them aged five to ten, produce soccer balls by hand for about a dollar and 20 cents a day. The children work 80 hours a week in near total darkness and total silence. A partial list of infractions for which they may be punished is tacked to a wall near the entrance. It's a document of dubious utility. The children are illiterate. Punishments are doled out in a storage closet at the rear of the factory. There children are hung upside down by their knees, starved, caned or lashed. The punishment room is a standard feature of a Pakistani factory, as common as a lunchroom at a Detroit assembly plant.
[/quote]

That was reported in 1997. Not too long ago...

in 2002 there were still people fighting against child labor:

http://www.abolishsweatshops.org/petition.asp

The United States is the largest market in the world. These are our companies. We the people have the power to end child labor and sweatshop abuses.

But then, aren't children accountable for their acts?
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/02/19/usdom7569.htm

I would not put the whole blame on the United States though; I believe the whole industrialized world is accountable, starting with the countries registered with the WTO.

The abuse of children is not tolerable, whatever the circumstances. But it is also part of an economical continuum.. or ecology if you prefer.

If some want to live in a world where survival of the fittest is the rule, I guess that can work for them. Not for me.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by JelloBiafra:
Zitfire! Please post more! Pretty please with sugar on top. See if you can fill an entire forum with posts only by yourself! Don't you have anything else to do????????

Ever?

Coward.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by lurkalot:
That is a seriously ****ed up terrorist act. To use a child as an unknowing walking bomb puts the person who initiated that attack beyond contempt. What a vile method of terrorist warfare. No excuse. No matter what the "cause".

The reason I posted this was. I was told a few days back that there had to be a reason Children were willingly blowing themselves up.

Looks like not all of them are. This one was lucky. We actually got to talk to him and see what the deal was.

He had no clue he was about to be blown up. Not a one.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Coward.

No, the proper term is "Drama Queen".