[typoon]

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20040...0110-2208r.htm

Iraq now has 20 functioning universities and 43 technical institutes and colleges. These are mainly public and overall experienced a 50 percent increase in freshman enrollment last year.

[Zimphire]

Looks like they are pretty much ready.

[eklipse]

Yeah - those sanctions must've been a real bitch....

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by eklipse:
Yeah - those sanctions must've been a real bitch....

Too bad Saddam got them into the mess.

[Logic]

Did you say that this was compared to last year? The year when the war was going on? The year when the graduations had to be postponed because of the war. Great job guys!

[eklipse]

Originally posted by Logic:
Did you say that this was compared to last year? The year when the war was going on? The year when the graduations had to be postponed because of the war. Great job guys!

That's the problem with students today: no discipline.

A little anti-aircraft fire, a few cruise missiles and a couple of JDAM bombs followed by a ground invasion and they take it as an excuse to slack-off.

Pathetic.

[phoenixboy70]

Originally posted by eklipse:
That's the problem with students today: no discipline.

A little anti-aircraft fire, a few cruise missiles and a couple of JDAM bombs followed by a ground invasion and they take it as an excuse to slack-off.

Pathetic.

[Zimphire]

Typical, the haters can't for a second say "Cool, something good is happening"

They have to strawman it and try to spin it.

[PacHead]

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:

Where were you guys when Saddam was in charge ? I didn't see any of you complaining about the dismal conditions in Iraq then. And I'm not just talking about the murder/rape squads or executions/torture or mass graves or anything like that. I'm talking about how Saddam had run the country in to the ground, totally neglecting the infrastructure and using electricity (or lack thereof) as a means to punish whole communities.

It's because some of you don't really give a crap about the people in Iraq, that's my theory. Face it, you guys don't mind dictators. Afterall, a madman like Saddam in charge is better than the USA being there.

People are afraid of Iraq doing well, because it will show the rest of the arab world just how crappy they really have it.

[typoon]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Typical, the haters can't for a second say "Cool, something good is happening"

They have to strawman it and try to spin it.

And you are Surprised?

Sometimes I wonder if they even want anything good to happen or if they just want bad things to happen so they can say that nothing good is going on.

[phoenixboy70]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Where were you guys when Saddam was in charge ?

quite to the contrary, my little neonazicon friend. i knew saddam was a piece of $hit when you guys were still kissing his royal rectum because he was fighting the "bad" iranians.

remember..the 80s...oli "irangate" north...ronny "bedtime for bonzo" reagan...

[Spliffdaddy]

that was a long time ago.

when were you planning on doing something more than moving your lips?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by typoon:
And you are Surprised?

Not really, it's predicable with this bunch.

Sometiems I wonder if they even want anything good to happen or if they just want bad things to happen so they can say that nothing good is going on.

That is EXACTLY what they want.

[eklipse]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Where were you guys when Saddam was in charge ?

Who do you think built the 20 universities and 43 technical institutes and colleges in the first place?

[phoenixboy70]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
that was a long time ago.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by eklipse:
Who do you think built the 20 universities and 43 technical institutes and colleges in the first place?

Iraqis

[eklipse]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Iraqis

Under whose authorization and approval?

[placebo1969]

I can't believe this place. The link certainly sounds like good news. Just accept it that there are some things to be thankful about there.

[Logic]

Originally posted by placebo1969:
I can't believe this place. The link certainly sounds like good news. Just accept it that there are some things to be thankful about there.

Notice how no one has answered my questions above. These numbers mean nothing. Until we see a comparison with the pre-war and also pre-sanctions numbers this is just another attempt to please the Bushies.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by placebo1969:
I can't believe this place. The link certainly sounds like good news. Just accept it that there are some things to be thankful about there.

They have to spin it placebo. They can't stand good things to happen down there.

They have been yelling the "The sky is falling" for too long.

No matter WHAT happens, they will say it's bad.

Get used to it.

[placebo1969]

Originally posted by eklipse:
Under whose authorization and approval?

Let me guess, Saddam. I'm sure he kissed babies and shook hands of his "supporters" too.

[placebo1969]

Originally posted by Logic:
Notice how no one has answered my questions above. These numbers mean nothing. Until we see a comparison with the pre-war and also pre-sanctions numbers this is just another attempt to please the Bushies.

I don't know the answer to your question. Hell, things may not be back to before the war yet. The original point is that things are improving. Oh, I'm not a "Bushie." The little name calling in here sounds so juvenile.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by placebo1969:
Oh, I'm not a "Bushie." The little name calling in here sounds so juvenile.

Anyone that doesn't blindly bash Bush like they do are seen as "Bushies" to them.

[Logic]

Originally posted by placebo1969:
I don't know the answer to your question. Hell, things may not be back to before the war yet. The original point is that things are improving. Oh, I'm not a "Bushie." The little name calling in here sounds so juvenile.

Things aren't improving if they haven't reached pre-war level. It is perhaps not the complete chaos the coalition brought to Iraq, but it is no improvement unless it goes beyond pre-war levels.

[placebo1969]

My point it that things are getting better/improving (whatever term you prefer). And since none of us has the figures of the pre-war stats, then the arguing is moot.

[typoon]

Originally posted by Logic:
Things aren't improving if they haven't reached pre-war level. It is perhaps not the complete chaos the coalition brought to Iraq, but it is no improvement unless it goes beyond pre-war levels.

Pre war levels? Well Supposedly the power grid is at or close to pre-war levels. If the terrorists would stop fighting and let Iraq be then I'm sure instead of fighting our troops coule be rebuilding a whole lot faster. Every little improvement is an improvement even if it isn't quite at pre-war levels yet.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by typoon:
Pre war levels? Well Supposedly the power grid is at or close to pre-war levels. If the terrorists would stop fighting and let Iraq be then I'm sure instead of fighting our troops coule be rebuilding a whole lot faster. Every little improvement is an improvement even if it isn't quite at pre-war levels yet.

[PacHead]

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
quite to the contrary, my little neonazicon friend.

I don't care if you call me a neocon or whatever, but you can spare me the "nazi" staple.

If you insist that I am a nazi, then I will assume that you are indeed a terrorist lover, and perhaps a terrorist yourself. They do have internet connections also you know.

[tie]

It's good that things are slowly improving. Although Logic is right that 50% more students going to class than went during the war isn't an interesting statistic. typoon, why did you quote this meaningless number?

Here's another article about how things are improving: NY Times link . I'll post some quotes since it's from Sunday and I think it will soon require paid access.

It was an engineering success on the order of stringing the first cables for the Brooklyn Bridge or coaxing the first glimmer of starlight through some giant telescope to unravel the structure of the universe.

But when it occurred late last month, the achievement remained cloaked in absolute secrecy, marked only by a quiet celebration among participants who may remain forever unknown to history.

Raw sewage was treated in Baghdad.

The stream of treated water that eventually found its way into the Tigris River was hardly more than a trickle, roughly 20 million gallons a day from a city that produces raw sewage at something like 10 times that rate or more. But the accomplishment is all but epoch-making in a city where the sewage plants are in such disrepair that for the last 10 to 15 years, every drop of that muck was poured untreated into the river, fouling everything from boat landings to drinking water systems downstream.

Successes like this one were just what Congress envisioned when it appropriated billions of dollars to rebuild Iraq, hoping the improvements would convince Iraqis of America's good will.

But for what those in charge of the work, the United States Agency for International Development and its major contractor, Bechtel, called security reasons, the sewage breakthrough remained secret. A reporter from The New York Times agreed not to give the location of the plant in exchange for receiving a general description of the work from the engineers involved. The reporter also agreed not to use the names of the engineers and to print no photographs of their faces.

A.I.D. and Bechtel say the breakthrough occurred in a dangerous part of Baghdad where any publicity could make the project a target for saboteurs, who struck again on Wednesday, killing a senior Oil Ministry official and damaging another oil pipeline. That argument and the bizarre concept of a secret sewage project have generated frustration among some of the engineers, who say secrecy defeats the original purpose of the work.

This is the first sewage treatment in Baghdad in 15 years but "we can't get the word out," said one American government engineer on the project. To the suggestion that publicity could lead to bombings and the like, the engineer said, "Well, guess what — we're getting bombed anyway."
...
At one point a sand-blasting machine was suddenly turned on somewhere and two of the people in the party, including the American government engineer, hit the deck, thinking it was a mortar attack.

How is the US going to improve its reputation in the Middle East if it can't publicize the good things its doing?

I am also curious why, since the most recent justification for the war in Iraq is for humanitarian reasons, there isn't more support for intervention in the Sudan in this thread. Shouldn't the US be the humanitarian policeman for the world? Where's Bush on this? Why not spend $200 billion here?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by PacHead:
I don't care if you call me a neocon or whatever, but you can spare me the "nazi" staple.

If you insist that I am a nazi, then I will assume that you are indeed a terrorist lover, and perhaps a terrorist yourself. They do have internet connections also you know.

[typoon]

Originally posted by tie:
It's good that things are slowly improving. Although Logic is right that 50% more students going to class than went during the war isn't an interesting statistic. typoon, why did you quote this meaningless number?

Here's another article about how things are improving: NY Times link . I'll post some quotes since it's from Sunday and I think it will soon require paid access.



How is the US going to improve its reputation in the Middle East if it can't publicize the good things its doing?

I am also curious why, since the most recent justification for the war in Iraq is for humanitarian reasons, there isn't more support for intervention in the Sudan in this thread. Shouldn't the US be the humanitarian policeman for the world? Where's Bush on this? Why not spend $200 billion here?

Improve it's reputation in the middle east? The US couldn't do that even if we all converted to Islam. They hate the West and the US and there is no way we would be able to Imporve our reputation. Even many of the people that we liberated don't like Us being there.


It's tough to find anything that is good being reported by the media. If the media would put aside it's agenda and report everything from the good and the bad then it'll never happen and the opinion of the US will never improve

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by typoon:
Improve it's reputation in the middle east? The US couldn't do that even if we all converted to Islam. They hate the West and the US and there is no way we would be able to Imporve our reputation. Even many of the people that we liberated don't like Us being there.

It's tough to find anything that is good being reported by the media. If the media would put aside it's agenda and report everything from the good and the bad then it'll never happen and the opinion of the US will never improve

Our own media is a weapons for the terrorists. And it's sad.

Sad that they put ratings above humanity.

Some I am sure are doing it on purpose.

[itai195]

Originally posted by typoon:
It's tough to find anything that is good being reported by the media. If the media would put aside it's agenda and report everything from the good and the bad then it'll never happen and the opinion of the US will never improve

While we're doing a number of good things, I don't think anything can trump the bad news when people are killed. That tends to have more of an effect on the population than sewage treatment, for obvious reasons. Without better security it doesn't matter what good things we accomplish, the hearts and minds won't be won.

[typoon]

Originally posted by itai195:
While we're doing a number of good things, I don't think anything can trump the bad news when people are killed. That tends to have more of an effect on the population than sewage treatment, for obvious reasons. Without better security it doesn't matter what good things we accomplish, the hearts and minds won't be won.

While that is true it seems like our troops are handcuffed with what they can do to find these scumbag terrorists. They are trying to not alienate the people of Iraq completely yet they are also trying to keep them safe. It's a double edged sword and right now. I feel that if the media pulled out and the military could do it's job things would be a whole lot better.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by typoon:
I feel that if the media pulled out and the military could do it's job things would be a whole lot better.

Yup, the military has two enemies here.

[AKcrab]

Originally posted by typoon:
Pre war levels? Well Supposedly the power grid is at or close to pre-war levels. If the terrorists would stop fighting and let Iraq be then I'm sure instead of fighting our troops coule be rebuilding a whole lot faster. Every little improvement is an improvement even if it isn't quite at pre-war levels yet.

Our troops do the rebuilding?
Maybe if we had allowed Iraqi companies to do the rebuilding, Iraqis would have something better to do than fight our troops?

[phoenixboy70]

Originally posted by PacHead:
If you insist that I am a nazi, then I will assume that you are indeed a terrorist lover, and perhaps a terrorist yourself.

wow. your philosophical abilities are beyond words. that is just the most amazing bullcrap conclusion i have ever heared. LOL.

i would post another pic, but then the forum snitch/coward, would rat me out again.

[itai195]

Originally posted by typoon:
While that is true it seems like our troops are handcuffed with what they can do to find these scumbag terrorists. They are trying to not alienate the people of Iraq completely yet they are also trying to keep them safe. It's a double edged sword and right now. I feel that if the media pulled out and the military could do it's job things would be a whole lot better.

Eh? The media has every right to be there.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by typoon:
While that is true it seems like our troops are handcuffed with what they can do to find these scumbag terrorists. They are trying to not alienate the people of Iraq completely yet they are also trying to keep them safe. It's a double edged sword and right now. I feel that if the media pulled out and the military could do it's job things would be a whole lot better.

This makes absolutely zero sense.

Do you really think Iraqis would suddenly forget that bombs are exploding every other day and crime is skyrocketing simply because the media didn't report it?

[itai195]

I think he's suggesting that the military can impose some rather draconian measures if it were free from media scrutiny.

[Logic]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
This makes absolutely zero sense.

Do you really think Iraqis would suddenly forget that bombs are exploding every other day and crime is skyrocketing simply because the media didn't report it?

He probably means that Bush's re-election bid wouldn't suffer as much if the media got shut out. That way the U.S. people wouldn't know what a complete and utter chaos Iraq has become.

But lets not forget that compared to the year when Iraq was being invaded, bombed and there was a fullscale war there are today more students than before!

[tie]

Originally posted by typoon:
Improve it's reputation in the middle east? The US couldn't do that even if we all converted to Islam. They hate the West and the US and there is no way we would be able to Imporve our reputation. Even many of the people that we liberated don't like Us being there.

You're right to some extent. But they don't all hate us blindly. Right after the war, many Iraqis liked the US very much. It is just the US incompetence (real and/or perceived, perhaps distorted by the media) after the war that has turned them against us. I think itai195 is correct; with better security, things like this would help our image, but without security nobody cares.

While that is true it seems like our troops are handcuffed with what they can do to find these scumbag terrorists. They are trying to not alienate the people of Iraq completely yet they are also trying to keep them safe. It's a double edged sword and right now. I feel that if the media pulled out and the military could do it's job things would be a whole lot better.

The media has done some very good things, for example exposing the Abu Ghraib prison abuse. Yes, that has hurt the US, but the US military wasn't paying enough attention to the fact that Americans were torturing innocent Iraqis -- just a terrible situation.

Also, even if Western media pulled out or at least gave the US more slack, this wouldn't affect Arab media. I don't think the average Iraqi cares about what the NY Times writes. There's nothing we can do about Al Jazeera. If we shuttered the Iraqi press now, would Iraq ever become a truly free nation? Blanket media restrictions, even during civil conflict, would create a terrible precedent. I think we are doing the right thing. Despite resistance, we have to keep on moving forward. If we hold Iraq's freedom hostage to the resistance, then we'll end up with a situation like with Israel.

[CD Hanks]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
This makes absolutely zero sense.

Do you really think Iraqis would suddenly forget that bombs are exploding every other day and crime is skyrocketing simply because the media didn't report it?

It is known that during the first Gulf War, all the protesting in Iraq that was reported on various news channels here (CNN, CBS, ABC, etc) was done simply because there was a camera. Soon as the reporter and camera crew left, the protestors left as well.

Originally posted by tie:
There's nothing we can do about Al Jazeera.

It's been a tough challenge for the US Gov't/Military not to take Al Jazerra off the air. For every tinge of fact they report, they also spout loads of off the wall propaganda. Kind of like the American media.

Originally posted by Logic:
He probably means that Bush's re-election bid wouldn't suffer as much if the media got shut out. That way the U.S. people wouldn't know what a complete and utter chaos Iraq has become.

But lets not forget that compared to the year when Iraq was being invaded, bombed and there was a fullscale war there are today more students than before!

Don't forget the footage of Iraqi's hugging American troops last year days after the initial strikes on Baghdad's intelligence centers. And also don't forget the footage of Iraqi's all taking turns hitting the bronze statue of Iraqi on the head with their shoes (this is a great insult.)

Collectively, they're much better off with out Saddam (as is the rest of the surrounding area, and possibly the rest of the world.)

[eklipse]

Originally posted by CD Hanks:
...And also don't forget the footage of Iraqi's all taking turns hitting the bronze statue of Iraqi on the head with their shoes....

Yeah..........all 20 of them.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Logic:
He probably means that Bush's re-election bid wouldn't suffer as much if the media got shut out.

No, I think he means the media needs to stop being drama queens.

That way the U.S. people wouldn't know what a complete and utter chaos Iraq has become.

Heh, the irony.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by tie:
You're right to some extent. But they don't all hate us blindly. Right after the war, many Iraqis liked the US very much. It is just the US incompetence (real and/or perceived, perhaps distorted by the media) after the war that has turned them against us.

Turned them against us? Only a VERY SMALL percentage is fighting against us.

9000 insurgaents / 50,000,000Iraqi population=0.00018

So 0.00018 of the people are unhappy with the US. I would even give it an extra .00100

[CD Hanks]

Originally posted by eklipse:
Yeah..........all 20 of them.

oic

[Nicko]

Originally posted by eklipse:
Yeah..........all 20 of them.

I counted 18..... oh wait you're right, it was 20. I didn't include the Americans who were operating the crane and positioning their flag for the 'spontanious' and totoally impromtue kodak moment photo.

[Zimphire]

You mean 20 near the statue. Not many more could fit there.

You never saw what was behind the camera.

I know that site was hard for the "I hope everything goes wrong in Iraq so Bush looks bad" type of people to watch.

But hey, it happened. The majority is STILL glad we are there.

Again,

9000 insurgaents / 50,000,000 Iraqi population=0.00018

[eklipse]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
You mean 20 near the statue. Not many more could fit there.

You never saw what was behind the camera.

Yeah, it was a real party.....looks like Times Square on New Year's Eve.....a regular throng.....

9000 insurgaents / 50,000,000 Iraqi population=0.00018

Where'd you get the '9000 insurgents' figure from? What about their supporters?

Iraq's population is closer to 25,000,000.