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BRussell · Jul 1, 2004, 11:25 AM

It's fascinating to see this former dictator, who previously could lift his eyebrow and have someone killed, defend himself in a courtroom. It must be something to be an Iraqi who has been conditioned over so many years to associate this guy with power, and now to see him in such a situation.

Let him (and his lawyers) defend himself however he wants. Let him accuse the US of aiding him in his crimes. It will rile up his defenders, and those with an anti-American agenda, but so what? I even hope he is found not guilty on some of the counts, say, the invasion of Kuwait. Because even if he wins some small points, the subtext will be clear: the contrast between how his "justice" system worked and how he's being treated.

Zimphire · Jul 1, 2004, 11:43 AM

I really hope they don't kill off Saddam. We have many, many years of Comedy left out of that guy in prison.

Look at all the humorous Manson clips we would have lost had he been killed.

eklipse · Jul 1, 2004, 11:44 AM

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/....ap/index.html

"This is not the time," said Mohammed Mahdi as he and several co-workers gathered around a small television set in a hotel lobby to watch the video over an Arabic language satellite station. "Yes, he needs to be brought to justice; yes, he should be held accountable. But the country has too many other problems now that should be fixed first.. What we're seeing now is nothing more than propaganda. This is for Bush's sake, for the sake of the American elections. This doesn't have anything to do with justice for Iraqis."

...

"Look at him. This isn't the face of a prisoner. He's running the courtroom," said one man who refused to be identified. Around him, other men nodded in agreement. One of them added: "That's why he was president for so long."

...

In the central Iraqi city of Ramadi, a Sunni Muslim area where support for Saddam has been strong, Odai Faleh voiced doubts that the former president was guilty of much beyond punishing those who deserved it.

"At least Saddam provided us with security. We have seen nothing good from the Americans," he said, commenting on the deteriorating security situation.

...

"We had a better life during Saddam era," said Faleh, who works at the Ramadi Education Directorate. "We want a fair trial where Saddam can speak and defend himself against the fabricated charges filed against him. Saddam used to punish only the bad people who used to destabilize the country."

Spliffdaddy · Jul 1, 2004, 11:46 AM

your true colors are showing...

Zimphire · Jul 1, 2004, 11:46 AM

"We had a better life during Saddam era," said Faleh, who works at the Ramadi Education Directorate. "We want a fair trial where Saddam can speak and defend himself against the fabricated charges filed against him. Saddam used to punish only the bad people who used to destabilize the country."

You got to be KIDDING to thumbs up that one. The first one was shilly enough.. but this one is just despicable.

Zimphire · Jul 1, 2004, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
your true colors are showing...

Indeed. Call him a Saddam sympathizer and watch the claws come out though.

Zimphire · Jul 1, 2004, 11:49 AM

You forgot to quote this

Some refused to comment, apparently fearful even now of making statements about the former regime.

"We won't say anything," said one woman who runs a handicrafts shop. "Even if the pictures were of him being executed, we wouldn't talk." Beside her, an elderly man nodded in agreement.

"With all the mass graves we have seen in Iraq, I think Saddam deserves capital punishment," said Sawsam Jamal, a Kurdish woman from Kirkuk, a region where the deposed leader reportedly authorized the gassing of thousands and the murder of thousands more.

"Saddam should be wiped out as soon as possible so that the Iraqi people can awaken from this nightmare."

In Azimiya, once a stronghold of support for Saddam's Baath Party, one man had disdain for the foreign lawyers who volunteered to defend Saddam.

"What are you going to defend?" said the man, who was not identified in an interview with Al-Iraqiya television station.

The guy is not in power, nor will he ever be. And they are STILL afraid of the man.

But he was innocent a tell ya!

Spliffdaddy · Jul 1, 2004, 11:51 AM

Obviously the Sunnis are unhappy to see their cronies lose power.

Lots of them *were* better off under Saddam.

itai195 · Jul 1, 2004, 11:52 AM

Might be worth a mention that this is just an arraignment, I believe. His trial won't be until well after the elections, so the Iraqis complaining that this is too early seem to be uninformed.

Zimphire · Jul 1, 2004, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Obviously the Sunnis are unhappy to see their cronies lose power.

Lots of them *were* better off under Saddam.

Yeah I am sure there was Hitler supporters too at the end. Saying life in Germany was better and more prosperous when he was in power as well.

BRussell · Jul 1, 2004, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by eklipse:

What exactly are you thumbs-upping from what you quoted?

Zimphire · Jul 1, 2004, 12:33 PM

eklipse · Jul 1, 2004, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
your true colors are showing...

Oh? Was I hiding them before?

eklipse · Jul 1, 2004, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Indeed. Call him a Saddam sympathizer and watch the claws come out though.

'Sympathizer' sounds so 'pitying' - use 'Saddam supporter' if you must.

eklipse · Jul 1, 2004, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by BRussell:
What exactly are you thumbs-upping from what you quoted?

The accurate take on reality.

dcmacdaddy · Jul 1, 2004, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:

Are you trying to impute that others on this forum hold the belief that whatever Saddam does is OK because it doesn't effect us?

BRussell · Jul 1, 2004, 12:56 PM

Originally posted by eklipse:
The accurate take on reality.

That his victims deserved what they got? I know you don't believe that.

phoenixboy70 · Jul 1, 2004, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:

was that an official republican advert in the 80s? because it certainly reflects the foreign policy of the times!

eklipse · Jul 1, 2004, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by BRussell:
That his victims deserved what they got? I know you don't believe that.

Should 'bad' people that try to destabilize a country not be punished?

BRussell · Jul 1, 2004, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by eklipse:
Should 'bad' people that try to destabilize a country not be punished?

Yeah, I think it's just fine that the Kurds were gassed with chemical weapons, that he had political opponents tortured and murdered and their families raped and videotaped, and their olympic athletes tortured for losing. I'm sure they all deserved it.

saab95 · Jul 1, 2004, 01:34 PM

Saddam's day in court

We all know where Saddam's head's going.

saab95 · Jul 1, 2004, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Indeed. Call him a Saddam sympathizer and watch the claws come out though.

I'd rather watch Saddam's head on the old chopping block

macvillage.net · Jul 1, 2004, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
was that an official republican advert in the 80s? because it certainly reflects the foreign policy of the times!

So sad, but so true. It was the republicans who armed/equipped/trained him to do what he did.

And Republicans took him down.

Now when can we give Bush his day in court.

Zimphire · Jul 1, 2004, 02:23 PM

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
was that an official republican advert in the 80s? because it certainly reflects the foreign policy of the times!

So how many here knew what Saddam was going to do what he did?

I keep hearing about how the the US never did anything, but I was alive in the 80s.

Zimphire · Jul 1, 2004, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
So sad, but so true. It was the republicans who armed/equipped/trained him to do what he did.

So if a Wal-Mart salesman sells someone a gun. And teaches that person to use it.

Then later on down the road, that person's "gun" goes to his head. He gets delusions of grandeur and starts shooting people with it.

I guess you could blame the Wal-Mart employee for selling it to him.

But that would make you look simple minded.

phoenixboy70 · Jul 1, 2004, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
So how many here knew what Saddam was going to do what he did?

that's hardly the issue. the question is what had he already done by that time! let me clue you in on something here, he hadn't exactly been mother fu<kin' theresa...

Zimphire · Jul 1, 2004, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
that's hardly the issue.

Yes, yes it is the issue. You cannot blame the US unless you can prove WE KNEW what would happen.

People turn all the time. (Which is another reason I am NOT for killing Saddam for what he did)

the question is what had he already done by that time! let me clue you in on something here, he hadn't exactly been mother fu<kin' theresa...

Nope, no leader of any country had.

But can you show where we knew what he was going to do?

of course not.

This is just FUD spreading. Totally useless.

Joshua · Jul 1, 2004, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by eklipse:
Should 'bad' people that try to destabilize a country not be punished?

This is surreal. Would you have voluntarily lived in Saddam's Iraq?

phoenixboy70 · Jul 1, 2004, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Yes, yes it is the issue. You cannot blame the US unless you can prove WE KNEW what would happen.
...
Nope, no leader of any country had.

you are so full of sh1t it's unbelievable.

learn some history and com back to us.

Zimphire · Jul 1, 2004, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
you are so full of sh1t it's unbelievable.

learn some history and com back to us.

Wow, way to prove me wrong.

Do you always give up so easily?

Zimphire · Jul 1, 2004, 03:12 PM

This is comical. I think I know who trained Baghdad Bob to speak.

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - He arrived handcuffed and in chains at a courtroom in a complex that was once one of his palaces. But although Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) has been overthrown and captured, he had not lost his defiance.

"I am Saddam Hussein, president of Iraq (news - web sites)," he told Thursday's hearing where he was read seven charges, according to reporters in the courtroom at Camp Victory, a sprawling U.S. base that was previously a lavish hunting estate with a man-made lake.

"Put down 'former' in brackets," the judge said to a clerk who was noting Saddam's declared occupation as head of state.

"This is all theater. The real criminal is Bush," Saddam later said, turning on President Bush (news - web sites), whose forces invaded Iraq and overthrew him 15 months ago.

In television pictures broadcast around the world on Thursday shortly after the proceedings, Saddam looked careworn, with a trimmed beard that had mostly turned grey.

But he had not lost his fire and at times seemed intent on intimidating the youthful-looking judge, who declined to give his name but said he was appointed to the bench under Saddam.

Saddam, 67, gesticulated at the lone magistrate, and at times wagging his finger angrily across the wooden railing that separated his chair from the judge's table.

The former president was wearing a dark grey, pinstriped jacket over an open-necked, formal white shirt, with no tie. It was the first footage shown of the ousted Iraqi leader since photographs and videotape taken after his capture in December.

He was thinner than when captured hiding in a hole near his hometown of Tikrit in December and he had bags under his eyes.

INSULTS KUWAITIS

Saddam also declared that the country's occupiers could not strip him of his title of president. The judge told him that, under the Geneva Conventions, they could.

Saddam refused to concede that the invasion of Kuwait in 1990 was a crime, denouncing the Kuwaitis as "dogs." The judge warned him not to use such language.

Told by the judge at the hearing that legal counsel would be provided for him if he needed it, Saddam said: "But everyone says, the Americans say, I have millions of dollars stashed away in Geneva. Why shouldn't I afford a lawyer?"

Saddam also refused to sign a statement acknowledging that he had been charged and read his rights. The hearing followed the end of his prisoner of war status and his transfer from U.S. to Iraqi legal custody Wednesday.

Hearing the charge that he ordered the killing of thousands of Kurds in a poison gas attack at Halabja in 1988, Saddam seemed to imply he had nothing to do with it, saying only that he had heard about it from the media.

Two burly Iraqi guards escorted him into the courthouse. His chains were removed before he reached the courtroom and the handcuffs were taken off inside the room.

The courtroom is close to the palace in the middle of an artificial lake stocked with fish on the southwest fringe of Baghdad. Members of Saddam's inner circle used to go hunting in the grounds, and soldiers say Saddam's playboy son Uday used one of the palace buildings for his assignations.

The small sandstone-colored court building is next to a blue-domed mosque, and was formerly the imam's residence.

It has been used for several courts martial, and for last week's hearing for Specialist Sabrina Harman, one of the seven American soldiers charged with abuse of Iraqi prisoners at the notorious Abu Ghraib jail -- where thousands of Iraqis were imprisoned and tortured under Saddam.

At the end of the hearing, two guards approached Saddam to lead him away. "Take it easy," he told them. "I'm an old man."

Heh

eklipse · Jul 1, 2004, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by Joshua:
This is surreal. Would you have voluntarily lived in Saddam's Iraq?

I did,

scottiB · Jul 1, 2004, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by BRussell:
It's fascinating to see this former dictator, who previously could lift his eyebrow and have someone killed, defend himself in a courtroom.

Looks as if Saddam was channeling a little Goering bravado from Nuremburg.

Dr.HermanG. · Jul 1, 2004, 03:27 PM

What's even more incredible is seeing certain European countries opposing the death penalty for Saddam. Of course, in certain countries in Europe, the yellow stripe runs wide and far.

rambo47 · Jul 1, 2004, 03:36 PM

The fact of the matter is that this will be an Iraqi trial. I'm sure the west will be invited to observe, but make no mistake, it's the Iraqis' show. Sadass Saddam's chances of keeping his head: < 0

Buh-by scvmbag, thanks for playing.

BRussell · Jul 1, 2004, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by eklipse:
I did,

Well it's a good thing you didn't try to "destabilize" the country while you were there. Did you report any suspicious activities to the proper authorities during your stay?

phoenixboy70 · Jul 1, 2004, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Wow, way to prove me wrong.

Do you always give up so easily?

okay then, list his track record 'til the mid 80s and show how he was just a "run off the mill" president, worthy of supporting...

and don't even play your usual "well, i didn't say that..., backpedal, spineless" crap...

or better yet, let me give you a hint, he was the same kind of inhumane, ruthless and deeply fascist dictator when he was shootin' the sh1t with captain halliburten in the mid 80s...

itai195 · Jul 1, 2004, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by Dr.HermanG.:
What's even more incredible is seeing certain European countries opposing the death penalty for Saddam. Of course, in certain countries in Europe, the yellow stripe runs wide and far.

It has more to do with opposing the death penalty in general than any cowardice. It's not like it takes any courage to execute a prisoner.

Zimphire · Jul 1, 2004, 04:01 PM

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
okay then, list his track record 'til the mid 80s and show how he was just a "run off the mill" president, worthy of supporting...

and don't even play your usual "well, i didn't say that..., backpedal, spineless" crap...

or better yet, let me give you a hint, he was the same kind of inhumane, ruthless and deeply fascist dictator when he was shootin' the sh1t with captain halliburten in the mid 80s...

He may have been.

But again, please show me where we knew when he was "put into power" that he was doing these things.

Not assuming, not "because I said so"

You keep dodging that. Why?

Zimphire · Jul 1, 2004, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by itai195:
It has more to do with opposing the death penalty in general than any cowardice. It's not like it takes any courage to execute a prisoner.

Yeah, I think the guy could change. If 20 years from now, he actually sees the error in his ways, keeping him around was worth it. IMHO.

I don't think we should kill the guy.

macvillage.net · Jul 1, 2004, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
So if a Wal-Mart salesman sells someone a gun. And teaches that person to use it.

Then later on down the road, that person's "gun" goes to his head. He gets delusions of grandeur and starts shooting people with it.

I guess you could blame the Wal-Mart employee for selling it to him.

But that would make you look simple minded.

The moment he came to office he started killing people.

THEN the US started backing Iraq seriously.

It's not that we didn't know what he was doing... it's just we didn't care, since we felt he would be helpful to us.

Your example, makes the wal-mart employee innocent, because they did not know the intent.

We knew very well what was going on in Iraq when he came to be. We knew what was going on. What we didn't know was that he would invade Kewait.

Dr.HermanG. · Jul 1, 2004, 04:07 PM

Originally posted by itai195:
It has more to do with opposing the death penalty in general than any cowardice. It's not like it takes any courage to execute a prisoner.

It is cowardice. It elevates the rights of prisoners above those of the victims. But of course we could only expect this from certain Europeans who have a history of cowardice.

Dr.HermanG. · Jul 1, 2004, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by macvillage.net:

It's not that we didn't know what he was doing... it's just we didn't care, since we felt he would be helpful to us.

Even today the cowards in Europe still don't care. At least we realized the mistake and took him out.

phoenixboy70 · Jul 1, 2004, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
But again, please show me where we knew when he was "put into power" that he was doing these things.

you don't know the first fu<kin' thing about iraq and saddam, do you?

okay here you go.

oh, and here for future refference.

itai195 · Jul 1, 2004, 04:13 PM

Originally posted by Dr.HermanG.:
It is cowardice. It elevates the rights of prisoners above those of the victims. But of course we could only expect this from certain Europeans who have a history of cowardice.

I thought all life was sacred???

Zimphire · Jul 1, 2004, 04:13 PM

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
The moment he came to office he started killing people.

THEN the US started backing Iraq seriously.

It's not that we didn't know what he was doing... it's just we didn't care, since we felt he would be helpful to us.

Your example, makes the wal-mart employee innocent, because they did not know the intent.

We knew very well what was going on in Iraq when he came to be. We knew what was going on. What we didn't know was that he would invade Kewait.

I keep on hearing "we knew" without any proof of anyone knowing.

That is my point. Sounds like a lot of assuming.

I am sure we knew he had done some bad stuff. But did we know to what extent?

Sounds like he was the lesser of a few evils.

phoenixboy70 · Jul 1, 2004, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by Dr.HermanG.:
It is cowardice. It elevates the rights of prisoners above those of the victims. But of course we could only expect this from certain Europeans who have a history of cowardice.

not half as cowardice as many americans who hide behind a gigantic military industrial complex.

Zimphire · Jul 1, 2004, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
you don't know the first fu<kin' thing about iraq and saddam, do you?

okay here you go.

oh, and here for future refference.

Yes I know all about Saddam. Thinks for your dripping pretension.

Zimphire · Jul 1, 2004, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
not half as cowardice as many americans who hide behind a gigantic military industrial complex.

Whaaaa? Who is hiding?

phoenixboy70 · Jul 1, 2004, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I am sure we knew he had done some bad stuff. But did we know to what extent?

absolutely laughable.

no, "you" didn't know about anyhting. the cia told the president that saddam was a great guy...quick, blame it on the agency...