[Spliffdaddy]

From the land of the forbidden head scarf...


"At a trial for defamation in Marseille, the ex-chief of staff of the French armed forces, Général Maurice Schmitt, said that the French army would only use torture in exceptional circumstances and if permitted by parliament."

OMG. Sounds as if he's describing a situation that happened in the past.

full text> http://www.french-news.com/ then click on: 'French Affairs'


"exceptional circumstances"



we hear ya. (wink wink)

[slow moe]

As long as they use it ONLY under exceptional circumstances, and not to extract information from an individual who knows about an impending attack against France. heh

I think they should be put in the same situation as us, and held to the same standards as they did us.

[Troll]

Originally posted by slow moe:
I think they should be put in the same situation as us, and held to the same standards as they did us.

It wasn't the French that held "you" (since you choose to associate with the barbaric scum that committed those attrocities) to that standard: It was 5000 years of civilisation that held you to that standard. 5,000 years of civilisation that belongs to all of us, not just the French. People in every country on the planet were disgusted by "your" behaviour.

[villalobos]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
From the land of the forbidden head scarf...


"At a trial for defamation in Marseille, the ex-chief of staff of the French armed forces, Général Maurice Schmitt, said that the French army would only use torture in exceptional circumstances and if permitted by parliament."

OMG. Sounds as if he's describing a situation that happened in the past.

full text> http://www.french-news.com/ then click on: 'French Affairs'


"exceptional circumstances"



we hear ya. (wink wink)

Why you say that? Did the Congress allow for torture? This was related to the Algeria war by the way. It had been covered for years. Now the truth is coming out and the criminals are being judged. This, in part, explains the lack of respect of the French toward their military by the way. Not much the French military and the French government at the time can be proud of during this war....

villa

[Spliffdaddy]

You mean the French aren't proud of their military?

fancy that.

[villalobos]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
You mean the French aren't proud of their military?

fancy that.

that's probably because they are not simple-minded.

villa

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
From the land of the forbidden head scarf...


"At a trial for defamation in Marseille, the ex-chief of staff of the French armed forces, Général Maurice Schmitt, said that the French army would only use torture in exceptional circumstances and if permitted by parliament."

OMG. Sounds as if he's describing a situation that happened in the past.

full text> http://www.french-news.com/ then click on: 'French Affairs'


"exceptional circumstances"



we hear ya. (wink wink)

Doing some archaeology here?



we see ya (oink oink)

Like this is so old news and has been debated and talked through over and over in France for the last 2 decades...

Glad you learned something today though: human beings are the same everywhere; some will do bad things at times.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Troll:
People in every country on the planet were disgusted by "your" behaviour.

It's too bad "you" and the other countries were so mute in your digust of Saddam's behavior. "You" were actually willing to allow 25 million Iraqis to continue living under a murderous, thieving, raping, brutal regime.

That, champ, is what's really disgusting.

[Spliffdaddy]

It was easier for them to ignore when just Iraqis were dying.

[undotwa]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
It's too bad "you" and the other countries were so mute in your digust of Saddam's behavior. "You" were actually willing to allow 25 million Iraqis to continue living under a murderous, thieving, raping, brutal regime.

That, champ, is what's really disgusting.

It was the American people, by not reelecting Bush that allowed Saddam Hussein to stay in power.

[Troll]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
It's too bad "you" and the other countries were so mute in your digust of Saddam's behavior. "You" were actually willing to allow 25 million Iraqis to continue living under a murderous, thieving, raping, brutal regime.

That, champ, is what's really disgusting.

What's really disgusting is people continuously trying to justify the torture. What's disgusting is people excusing the torture by saying that Saddam was worse. That is certainly the case, but it's no excuse for torturing Iraqis today. The US should not be using Saddam Hussein as a yardstick by which they measure THEIR behaviour.

Silent? I wasn't silent. Neither was the rest of the world. Did you miss the discussions at the United Nations? Did you miss the 1,000,000 dead civilians as a result of the rest of the world's silence? Did you miss the daily sorties by aircraft from all over the world flying under the UN banner?

Painting the US as the only one interested in Iraq is completely dishonest. The US showed no more interest in Iraq than anyone else. It was only when WMD failed to turn up that it became politically expedient for Bush to paint himself as a liberator.

[Spliffdaddy]

oh, it's always "the world's" silence when Iceland does nothing to help free the Iraqis.

[Troll]

Look, I don't think anyone, except the sadistic, psychopathic few, think that torture, whether it be perpetrated by Saddam Hussein or Lindy England or Maurice Schmitt is acceptable or good for society. We have to accept that a certain percentage of people are sadistic psychopaths and given the opportunity and the encouragement, will commit torture. We have to root those people out of our society.

What we cannot allow to happen is for the sadistic psychopaths to drag us down to their level. That's what happens when people try to justify their actions. The way some people on these boards try to justify the torture at Abu Ghraib either by playing down the acts themselves or relativising the acts against French behaviour in the Algerian war or Saddam Hussein's deeds is more dangerous to our society than the acts of torture themselves. If we excuse that treatment, we've really lost all sense of what we're apparently fighting to protect. A society that allows people to inflict violence on defenceless, awaiting trial prisoners is not one most of want to live in for the simple reason that we might one day be awaiting trial prisoners. There is no justification for torturing people. Period.

As for Iraq. To the extent that anyone outside Iraq is to blame for what happened to the Iraqi people (which is not a given), then we all bear equal responsibility. America did no more to help Iraqis than anyone else. In fact, it did a lot more than most to make the situation worse. In Sudan, practically everyone is standing watching while a humanitarian disaster takes place. Until it affects our national interest, no one gets involved in "freeing" people. The US perceived that its national interests were served by invading Iraq. Not because the poor Iraqis were oppressed, tortured and killed. People are oppressed, tortured and killed in countries all over the world. Saddam was different because he was a monster that had a lot of power because of his oil reserves, had access to a lot of money and was accused of using that power to gain access to technology for the production of WMD. He was a bigger fish than Jean-Bertrand Aristide or Bob Mugabe. The Project for a New American Century determined that US interests were served by taking him out and when this cabal took power, they did what they thought was good for the USA. Invading East Timor, sorting out AIDS, Zimbabwe were more pressing humanitarian concerns for the world but they didn't have the same impact on US national interests as Iraq. No one is blaming Cheney and Bush and Co. for defining US national interests the way they did. I personally think they got it wrong. I personally don't think that the US can consolidate its global power through military actions as the PFANAC suggests. But being a state is about pursuing what your leaders think it good for you. Morality only plays a role in defining the nature of the response.

[badidea]

Originally posted by Troll:
<perfect post>

[Logic]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
oh, it's always "the world's" silence when Iceland does nothing to help free the Iraqis.

heh, ignorance.

Iceland was a part of The CoW and we have some of our munitions experts in Iraq. Try again

[undotwa]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
oh, it's always "the world's" silence when Iceland does nothing to help free the Iraqis.

What is your problem about Iceland? The people are nice and the springs beautiful.

I am fairly conservative, but cannot stand this arrogent and disrespectful American attitude to people who don't agree with you.

[undotwa]

Originally posted by Troll:
[insert great post here]

Exactly my issue with some Republicans. They condemn the torture done by others (which I too condemn) but then excuse the tortures done by their own men. Why? For what? It only makes you look worse. It shows that your moral principles are weak and apply different standards to your own than to foreigners.

[phoenixboy70]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
It was easier for them to ignore when just Iraqis were dying.

seems to have been easier for other people too..

[villalobos]

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
seems to have been easier for other people too..

He did not ignore, he just did not care. Besides he was there for the money. He is still there for the money actually. I keep wondering how people can give this man any credit.

villa