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Logic · Jul 12, 2004, 06:25 AM

West Bank barrier ruling: Key points

So will this be just yet one more condemnation of Israel that will go unnoticed, or will this be the first step to the international community actually doing something about the situation?

Discuss!

badidea · Jul 12, 2004, 07:17 AM

Originally posted by Logic:
So will this be just yet one more condemnation that will be ignored by Israel, ...

<fixed>
Yes, didn't you see the news?!

Originally posted by Logic:
...or will this be the first step to the international community actually doing something about the situation?

No!

lil'babykitten · Jul 12, 2004, 07:24 AM

^ He got there first.

oh oh there was another thing - the Arab nations - between sipping their minty tea in their gold-rimmed glasses - urged the UN to act.

So yes, this is the usual condemn but don't act scenario. You should be used to it by now, it's only been the reoccurring theme for the last 50 years!

spacefreak · Jul 12, 2004, 07:50 AM

Israels approach to Palestinian-sourced violence has been brilliant. Hamas leaders are now afraid to show their faces and instead are spending most of their time running and hiding. And in areas where the wall has gone up, terror attacks have dropped significantly. As a result, economic activity in Israel is on the rise, approaching where it was before the intifada started, and tourism, which was seriously deflated the past few years, is increasing as well.

The Palestinian people are in dire straits because of their corrupt, inept leadership (Arafat), not because Israel is putting up a wall.

Once again, we have a non-elected body trying to impose its will on other countries, dictating to them what they can and cannot do to defend themselves.

Spheric Harlot · Jul 12, 2004, 07:57 AM

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Israels approach to Palestinian-sourced violence has been brilliant.

It has also been entirely ineffective.

Spliffdaddy · Jul 12, 2004, 08:03 AM

Just *one* bomb in Tel Aviv in over a year?

I'd call that success.

dcolton · Jul 12, 2004, 09:03 AM

There is no doubt the wall has proven to be effective and I would be dissapointed if Israel paid any attention to the ICJ's opinion. It amazes me how a few terrorists can influence world opinon against those who try to maintain the simple idea of peace. Perhaps if 'Palestine' would have taken this course of action first instead of the premeditated murder of innocent Jews, things would be different.

Logic · Jul 12, 2004, 09:10 AM

Like you see(if you bothered reading what the ICJ said) it isn't the wall itself that is the problem. It's where that wall is located. It's the location of the wall that's the problem and not the wall itself. So arguing that the wall has done a great job doesn't help any of you who support Israel. Sorry and try again.

dcolton · Jul 12, 2004, 09:23 AM

Originally posted by Logic:
Like you see(if you bothered reading what the ICJ said) it isn't the wall itself that is the problem. It's where that wall is located. It's the location of the wall that's the problem and not the wall itself. So arguing that the wall has done a great job doesn't help any of you who support Israel. Sorry and try again.

I don't quite interpret it that way. The location is bad because it impeded the free movement of Palestinians [to attack Israel]?

Logic · Jul 12, 2004, 09:31 AM

Originally posted by dcolton:
I don't quite interpret it that way. The location is bad because it impeded the free movement of Palestinians [to attack Israel]?

To move freely inside their own country.

edited to add:

Check this article and especially the at a glance map.

dcolton · Jul 12, 2004, 09:40 AM

Originally posted by Logic:
To move freely inside their own country.

edited to add:

Check this article and especially the at a glance map.

Palestine is a recognized nation with borders?

Logic · Jul 12, 2004, 09:42 AM

Originally posted by dcolton:
Palestine is a recognized nation with borders?

Israel isn't either by that definition.

dcolton · Jul 12, 2004, 09:44 AM

Originally posted by Logic:
Israel isn't either by that definition.

Depends on where you are from!

Of course, this is where our differences are derived. Out of curiosity and pure laziness (ignorance as well)...where does Iceland stand?

Logic · Jul 12, 2004, 09:45 AM

Originally posted by dcolton:
Depends on where you are from!

Of course, this is where our differences are derived. Out of curiosity and pure laziness (ignorance as well)...where does Iceland stand?

On the wall issue or on Israel in general?

edit:

And Israel is for a fact not recognized as a nation under that definition. I'll give you a hint. Find the borders they claimed when Israel was created.

dcolton · Jul 12, 2004, 09:52 AM

Originally posted by Logic:
On the wall issue or on Israel in general?

edit:

And Israel is for a fact not recognized as a nation under that definition. I'll give you a hint. Find the borders they claimed when Israel was created.

No, I was asking if Iceland recognizes Israel or Palestine (or both).

Nonetheless, does the recogniztion of a state always include defined borders that are in dispute?

Logic · Jul 12, 2004, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by dcolton:
No, I was asking if Iceland recognizes Israel or Palestine (or both).

Nonetheless, does the recogniztion of a state always include defined borders that are in dispute?

IIRC the official policy here is to recognize both and the green line as the border. Just as about 2/3 of the world does.

You always need borders to be able to be define as a state. Israel never claimed their borders, they only claimed to be independant.

Zimphire · Jul 12, 2004, 10:14 AM

I have a quick fix. Get the Palestinians to stop attacking Israel and there would be no reason for said wall.

Problem fixed.

deomacius · Jul 12, 2004, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I have a quick fix. Get the Palestinians to stop attacking Israel and there would be no reason for said wall.

Problem fixed.

macvillage.net · Jul 12, 2004, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by Logic:
IIRC the official policy here is to recognize both and the green line as the border. Just as about 2/3 of the world does.

You always need borders to be able to be define as a state. Israel never claimed their borders, they only claimed to be independant.

THat's a part of the problem nobody wants to talk about.

Isarel still hasn't retracted it's claims which extend into Africa, Turkey, and Iraq.

It's kind of hard to settle any border dispute when both sides haven't clearly stated the disputed land, and their demands.

Yet another reason the "roadmap" was nothing more than a clever prop, with no intent to implement. If it were, this would have been the first thing Bush demanded. Within 30 days an official statement proclaming the borders of the respective states... and then let the roadmap dictate how the dispute will take place.

But they cut that out by the final draft.