[moki]

Nice to see someone else -- especially a Canadian -- "getting" O'Reilly. In any event, the article O'Reilly penned makes some very interesting points. Please respond to the statements in the article, not your opinion on O'Reilly.

from: http://www.proudtobecanadian.ca/thre...amp;Number=799

.....

Fox News Channel's Bill O'Reilly is one of the fairest and brightest journalists on television. He regularly takes on right-wingers and left-wingers with a complete disregard for their political party allegiance. His emphasis is on eliminating the "spin" from either side and just getting to the truth of matters, simply in the name of truth and justice and building a better nation, and a better world. This is a concept totally foreign to the Canadian liberal media bent on making the world more liberal.

No fan of Ann Coulter nor Michael Moore, Bill O'Reilly is a large chunk of what we miss in this country as the CRTC bans Fox News Channel from Canadians.

On Bill O'Reilly's Fox News Channel show "The O'Reilly Factor" on Friday June 9 2004 in his daily "Talking Points Memo", he let loose on an opinion poll he got hold of suggesting that most Canadian teens think the United States is "an evil country". The blame for this disgraceful, abhorrent, alarming attitude rests squarely on the Liberal Canadian government and liberal media. And that's not Bill O'Reilly talking, that's Joel Johannesen.

.....

Hating America
Friday, July 09, 2004
By Bill O'Reilly

Hi, I'm Bill O'Reilly. Thank you for watching us tonight.

Hating America. That is the subject of this evening's "Talking Points Memo." According to a new poll, 40 percent of Canadian teenagers think America is an evil country. Among French-Canadian teens, the number jumps to 64 percent. Those numbers can be laid right on the doorstep of the Canadian media and government

As you may know, the FOX News Channel is not allowed in Canada, but CNN is. Fair and balanced? You decide.

The USA takes a relentless pounding from many Canadian news organizations and from the liberal government. So, what can we expect from the kids? They're not getting a full picture. And neither is most of the world.

Increasingly, the bully America is being portrayed as the devil. And the far left in this country is gleefully piling on. Guys like Michael Moore [are] running around the world telling everybody what a bad place America is. Moore and his enablers should be very proud of themselves

For the benefit of the Canadian kids, let's take a look at the record:


•The foreign and defense policies of Ronald Reagan (search) resulted in the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the freeing of approximately 122 million people in Eastern Europe.

• The state of Israel would cease to exist if not for American protection, and about 5.5 million Jews would be in grave danger.

• Nearly 23 million Taiwanese would be denied freedom if not for American protection. More than 48 million South Koreans would be living under a dictatorship if not for American protection. USA action led to the removal of the Serbian dictator Milosevic (search), who was responsible for the murders of hundreds of thousands of people in the Balkans.

• The USA and Britain removed the Iraqi dictator Hussein, who was responsible for the murders of hundreds of thousands of people in the Middle East. And we have also removed the terrorist Taliban government in Afghanistan.

• America is sending $15 billion to Africa to help victims of AIDS. We were unable to find out how much France contributes, if anything. To be fair, Canada sends $270 million, which is substantial.

• American action in Central America, Grenada (search), and Haiti (search) has kept millions of people out of totalitarian regimes. Of course, all of this has cost every American taxpayer big. And thousands of American servicepeople have lost their lives protecting people overseas.

It is insulting and dishonest for Americans and Canadians and Europeans to condemn this country because they don't like certain policies. Dissent is good. Slander is unacceptable.

The truth is that the USA has freed more human beings in 230 years than the rest of the world combined. France has freed almost no one. Ditto Canada.

So, pardon me as I object to the Michael Moores of the world — and that man is too cowardly to come in here, all right? Pardon me as I object to the anti-American foreign press and bums like Chirac in France and Chretien in Canada.

America has a provable history of freeing oppressed people all over the world in fighting evil dictators. Canada should be ashamed that so many of its young people are flat out ignorant. And Americans should wise up and realize we are living in a changing world. Old friends are not necessarily true friends.

And that's "The Memo."

[Spliffdaddy]

"The truth is that the USA has freed more human beings in 230 years than the rest of the world combined. France has freed almost no one. Ditto Canada."

Thanks for my new sig !

[Agasthya]

Holy ****. I cannot believe that these words were typed (And he appears to be serious too!): "Fox News Channel's Bill O'Reilly is one of the fairest and brightest journalists on television."

Oh my goodness. I'm really at a loss for words. I seriously had to re-read it to make sure that it wasn't sarcastic!

[PacHead]

Originally posted by Agasthya:
Holy ****. I cannot believe that these words were typed (And he appears to be serious too!): "Fox News Channel's Bill O'Reilly is one of the fairest and brightest journalists on television."

Oh my goodness. I'm really at a loss for words. I seriously had to re-read it to make sure that it wasn't sarcastic!

Please respond to the statements in the article, not your opinion on O'Reilly.


I guess the left has obvious comprehension and reading problems.

[tie]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Please respond to the statements in the article, not your opinion on O'Reilly.


I guess the left has obvious comprehension and reading problems.

He attacks O'Reilly, and you attack him. If moki was serious, he would have edited out from his quote: "No fan of Ann Coulter nor Michael Moore, Bill O'Reilly is a large chunk of what we miss in this country." It's certainly fair to respond. But considering that nobody has yet replied to the rest of the article, maybe I should try.

It is insulting and dishonest for Americans and Canadians and Europeans to condemn this country because they don't like certain policies. Dissent is good. Slander is unacceptable.

This doesn't make sense. It is perfectly acceptable to condemn a country because you don't like its policies. What else? This is the biggest flaw in his argument, and the whole thing falls to pieces.

I also don't see why America's actions over the last 230 years should give it a free ride today. America today is becoming a bully instead of a leader. Its ridiculously misinformed war in Iraq, and mismanaged and corrupt reconstruction efforts have made the world a less safe place. It's perfectly fair to criticize the US for these reasons.

Some of his particular points are misleading. For example, "America is sending $15 billion to Africa to help victims of AIDS." So far, very little of that money has actually been spent. Moreover, how does that compare to $200 billion spent in Iraq?

This is yet another example of the right being afraid of any criticism. In fact, criticism makes us stronger.

And Americans should wise up and realize we are living in a changing world. Old friends are not necessarily true friends.

This is a good point. Paranoia also makes us strong. But instead of breaking down alliances, when we could use some help, we should be rebuilding them. What O'Reilly seems to miss completely is that it is Bush who has channeled much of the dislike of America. I think that things will turn around fairly dramatically if the US gets a more competent leadership.

[RonnieoftheRose]

Half-truths from a man with half a brain.

[forkies]

here's a response which also happens to include "some very interesting points":

http://www.matthewgood.org/blog/arch...9_archive.html

[UNTeMac]

It's the old right-wing argument of "disagree and you hate America." and it's based on their opinion that the United States should be loved for what it's done, not what it's doing.

It's like saying, "We've done a lot of great things so you should assume that EVERYTHING we do is great." No matter that the leadership has changed 84 times in the history of this nation.

Different leadership comes with different values, actions and world opinion.

[PacHead]

We have nothing to learn from the likes of Canada or France. Way too many ignoramouses there. They are simply flat out wrong.

It is their right to say or believe whatever they please, and it is our right to shrug that off as ridiculous nonsense.

[PacHead]

I find it pretty amazing that fox news has been banned from Canada ?

I wasn't aware that we had nazis living to our north.

[UNTeMac]

Originally posted by PacHead:
We have nothing to learn from the likes of Canada or France. Way too many ignoramouses there. They are simply flat out wrong.

It is their right to say or believe whatever they please, and it is our right to shrug that off as ridiculous nonsense.

"Hello Pot? This is Kettle...... what?? I'm not black!!"

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by moki:
(as quoted from proud to be canadians)
The truth is that the USA has freed more human beings in 230 years than the rest of the world combined. France has freed almost no one. Ditto Canada.

Yep.

Black people were freed from Africa.
First Nations were freed from life as well.

On the other hand, France was busy freeing itself, as well as Algeria from itself.

Canada got busy puting First Nations in reserve, and free China of some Chinese to build its railway. They were also busy bashing its French-Canadian population. What else? there is more for sure...

When you realy look at history, you find not so many reasons to be proud of your own country.

This "pride" we should feel about our respective nations should not put its past mistakes in oblivion, and should be directed at learning not to repeat them again.

[phoenixboy70]

Originally posted by moki:
The truth is that the USA has killed more human beings in 230 years than the rest of the world combined. France has killed almost no one. Ditto Canada.

fixed™

oh, and conservatives everywhere SUCK!

[villalobos]

Originally posted by angaq0k:
This "pride" we should feel about our respective nations should not put its past mistakes in oblivion, and should be directed at learning not to repeat them again.

This probably will fall on deaf ears, but it's worth repeating.

[Jim Paradise]

I think there are some veterans, historians, and citizens across the world that would dispute that Canada didn't help to "free" anyone during many of the 20th century wars.

[Jim Paradise]

Originally posted by angaq0k:
Yep.

Black people were freed from Africa.
First Nations were freed from life as well.

On the other hand, France was busy freeing itself, as well as Algeria from itself.

Canada got busy puting First Nations in reserve, and free China of some Chinese to build its railway. They were also busy bashing its French-Canadian population. What else? there is more for sure...

When you realy look at history, you find not so many reasons to be proud of your own country.

This "pride" we should feel about our respective nations should not put its past mistakes in oblivion, and should be directed at learning not to repeat them again.

Though I must say, those in Lower Canada/Quebec had it damned easy for a people who lost to the British, and have had a pretty damned good ride from the federal government compared to some of the other provinces.. (It was obviously a necessity for the British to keep many things such as religion in place after they had finally defeated the French.)

[CD Hanks]

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
fixed™

oh, and conservatives everywhere SUCK!

I don't mean to be a dick, but this is probably the most clueless, absentminded, and overly simplistic post in the entire thread.

(This one comes a close second, I know, but I had to say it.)

[itai195]

Originally posted by angaq0k:
This "pride" we should feel about our respective nations should not put its past mistakes in oblivion, and should be directed at learning not to repeat them again.

Yeah... That's pretty much it. I wonder what he would have said back in the 30s when every other country in the Americas was on the brink of declaring war on the US, but Republican president Herbert Hoover 'appeased' them with his good neighbor policy (later continued by FDR). I think we need a similar policy for Canada and Europe to repair the damage the Bush administration has done. Canada is our friend and top trading partner, if there are rifts in our relationship then we should try to mend them.

[phoenixboy70]

Originally posted by CD Hanks:
I don't mean to be a dick, but this is probably the most clueless, absentminded, and overly simplistic post in the entire thread.

sorry for the knee yerk reaction. but i'm just sick and tired of hearing this kind of nationalistic blather from conservatives and right wingers.

they're the fu<kin' same everywhere. people who hide behind national pride to conceal their own complete irrelevance.

[CD Hanks]

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
sorry for the knee yerk reaction. but i'm just sick and tired of hearing this kind of nationalistic blather from conservatives and right wingers.

they're the fu<kin' same everywhere. people who hide behind national pride to conceal their own complete irrelevance.

Well, they're here to stay, and be glad that the two parties even each other out. I'd be horrified to have to put up with one party exclusively.

Too much liberalism and you'd probably get socialism/communism. Too much conservatism, and at some point you'd probably get fascism.

[Zimphire]

"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil"

[Timo]

O'Reilly has one good point: that is, people should embrace access to many different points of view. Unfortunately, he undoes the value of his POV with sloppy posturing, hyperbole, and distortion. To whit:

Originally posted by moki:
The truth is that the USA has freed more human beings in 230 years than the rest of the world combined. France has freed almost no one. Ditto Canada.

Wow. Tell that, e.g., to the Canadian veterans of Juno Beach. The ones who made the most progress inland on 6 June 1944.

(I'm sure Messr. O'Reilly can't be bothered by facts.)

Hey, with spin like his, who needs facts?

A side note: does O'Reilly's calcuation of all the people the USA freed include all the people the USA enslaved?

[:dragonflypro:]

This thread really HAD some potential…and was basically derailed in 4 posts.

And, Jim Paradise, sorry man…but you need to brush up on some basic history.

Until at least 1959 France was a significant imperial power with colonies from Africa to the Caribbean to Asia. To this day most African nations are still bloody, horrible places to live and many still have human slavery. Facts, man. Sorry.

Anyhow, I don't like O'Reilly. He grates on me. But he does have a good point. It deserves discussion. I think it comes down to the rampant demagoguery (heh, used that twice today!) in the media in general. Hate America, blame America seems to be globally vogue with the youth as well. So much so that even the mention of being conservative or Republican elicits a frightening level of hate off the cuff, as this thread seems to have demonstrated. I think on the whole that bothers me the most…the blind hate. From those who seem to align themselves with peace, love and unit no less.

If I am going to employ hate, which i can't say I do, I reserve it for truly heinous mass murders and those guilty of genocide and really bad spin-off TV shows.

[Atomic Rooster]

"The truth is that the USA has freed more human beings in 230 years than the rest of the world combined. France has freed almost no one. Ditto Canada."


42,042 Canadians were killed during WW2, 53,145 were wounded. The United States lost 291,557 brave men in combat. Canadian young men constitute nearly 1/6th of those deaths though only 1,086,343 Canadians served in the war compared to 16 million Americans.


Since the U.S. force was 16 time larger that's like losing 600.000 Canadians.

Canadians fought during the whole 6.5 years of the war. The U.S. of A 3.5 years.

WTF?

O'Really is a ******* liar! LOL Peabody award...haha.

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by Jim Paradise:


Though I must say, those in Lower Canada/Quebec had it damned easy for a people who lost to the British, and have had a pretty damned good ride from the federal government compared to some of the other provinces.. (It was obviously a necessity for the British to keep many things such as religion in place after they had finally defeated the French.)

Totally in agreement with you. Once we start to look at the details, nothing is perfect and discontent reigns from whatever point of view, and usually for often for very good reasons.

[:dragonflypro:]

Originally posted by Atomic Rooster:
"The truth is that the USA has freed more human beings in 230 years than the rest of the world combined. France has freed almost no one. Ditto Canada."


42,042 Canadians were killed during WW2, 53,145 were wounded. The United States lost 291,557 brave men in combat. Canadian young men constitute nearly 1/6th of those deaths though only 1,086,343 Canadians served in the war compared to 16 million Americans.


Since the U.S. is 10 time larger that's like losing 420,000 Canadians.

Canadians fought during the whole 6.5 years of the war. The U.S. of A 3.5 years.

WTF?

A: chill out man;

B: itemizing deaths and trying to fractionalize losses is petty and beside the point: sacrifice is sacrifice, and;

C. just to be petty and combative US Congressional stats put US deaths at 408k and wounded at 670k

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by itai195:
Yeah... That's pretty much it. I wonder what he would have said back in the 30s when every other country in the Americas was on the brink of declaring war on the US, but Republican president Herbert Hoover 'appeased' them with his good neighbor policy (later continued by FDR). I think we need a similar policy for Canada and Europe to repair the damage the Bush administration has done. Canada is our friend and top trading partner, if there are rifts in our relationship then we should try to mend them.

Just as the US is our friend and amongst the top (if not the top) trading partner and disagreement with Bush's (and his acolytes) policies should not be generalized to the population of the US, democrat, republicans, or whatever.

[Jim Paradise]

Originally posted by :dragonflypro::
This thread really HAD some potential…and was basically derailed in 4 posts.

And, Jim Paradise, sorry man…but you need to brush up on some basic history.

Until at least 1959 France was a significant imperial power with colonies from Africa to the Caribbean to Asia. To this day most African nations are still bloody, horrible places to live and many still have human slavery. Facts, man. Sorry.

Anyhow, I don't like O'Reilly. He grates on me. But he does have a good point. It deserves discussion. I think it comes down to the rampant demagoguery (heh, used that twice today!) in the media in general. Hate America, blame America seems to be globally vogue with the youth as well. So much so that even the mention of being conservative or Republican elicits a frightening level of hate off the cuff, as this thread seems to have demonstrated. I think on the whole that bothers me the most…the blind hate. From those who seem to align themselves with peace, love and unit no less.

If I am going to employ hate, which i can't say I do, I reserve it for truly heinous mass murders and those guilty of genocide and really bad spin-off TV shows.

I was only refering to the treatment of the French here in Canada after the Brits defeated them.

[MacGorilla]

He describes Moore at cowardly because he wont come on the show, but he omits he walked out on Fareheight 9/11. MM caught him and said if he stayed for the whole movie, he would go on O'Reilly's show.

But besides that, I think the points he makes are valid.

[Dex13]

His Show should just have scrolling text on the screen about his thoughts on the nights argument w/ 10 minute intervals where his portrait appears w/ the flashing text "I'm always right" underneath him.

[villalobos]

It amuses me that the same people who call MM a 'big fat liar' give O'Reilly credit and think he is for real. At least, MM is ready to rationally argue, whereas O'Reilly best line to date is 'Shut up'.

You people amuse me.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally posted by villalobos:
It amuses me that the same people who call MM a 'big fat liar' give O'Reilly credit and think he is for real. At least, MM is ready to rationally argue, whereas O'Reilly best line to date is 'Shut up'.

You people amuse me.

Moore is big and fat, whether or not he is a liar is debateable.
They are both huge wind-bags looking to shout down any
viewpoint that doesn't further their own sense of self-importance.
One of them puffs himself up on the TV on a daily basi, the other
one does it on a more infrequent basis. Either way, they are both
biaed and they both suck.

<edit: and I can't spell, but am too lazy too fix it.>

[:dragonflypro:]

Originally posted by villalobos:
It amuses me that the same people who call MM a 'big fat liar' give O'Reilly credit and think he is for real. At least, MM is ready to rationally argue, whereas O'Reilly best line to date is 'Shut up'.

You people amuse me.

Moore is a weaselly, info manipulating windbag furthering his own hate agenda.

O'Reilly is a obnoxiously loud, arrogant, self-important know it all furthering his own ego.

Hell, and this oughta tick some of you off, Rush is more amiable and honest than both of 'em together.

Toby

[Spliffdaddy]

there's hope for you

*hug*

[Logic]

Originally posted by moki:
•The foreign and defense policies of Ronald Reagan (search) resulted in the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the freeing of approximately 122 million people in Eastern Europe.

But this ignores the fact that the Perestroyka probably played a huge part in the dissolution of the Soviet Union.

• The state of Israel would cease to exist if not for American protection, and about 5.5 million Jews would be in grave danger.

The lives of about 8.5 billion arabs are in danger because of US support for the continued occupation of Palestine. That means the net result is that three million people are living under a brutal occupation. Unless of course Jewish lives are worth more than Muslim, Christian etc etc lives.

• Nearly 23 million Taiwanese would be denied freedom if not for American protection. More than 48 million South Koreans would be living under a dictatorship if not for American protection. USA action led to the removal of the Serbian dictator Milosevic (search), who was responsible for the murders of hundreds of thousands of people in the Balkans.

True.

• The USA and Britain removed the Iraqi dictator Hussein, who was responsible for the murders of hundreds of thousands of people in the Middle East. And we have also removed the terrorist Taliban government in Afghanistan.

Western support including US made it possible for SH to kill all those people. Why conservatives forget this I can't understand.

• America is sending $15 billion to Africa to help victims of AIDS. We were unable to find out how much France contributes, if anything. To be fair, Canada sends $270 million, which is substantial.

Wrong. The US is sending 15 billion into their own economy so that their drug companies are able to send their own products to nations that can't afford medicines. The US could cut this cost drastically by helping the poor nations set up their own drug factories, or could help a lot more if they sent all that money into the development of cheap generic drugs. Instead the US, like usual, spends a lot of money on propping up their own industry.

• American action in Central America, Grenada (search), and Haiti (search) has kept millions of people out of totalitarian regimes. Of course, all of this has cost every American taxpayer big. And thousands of American servicepeople have lost their lives protecting people overseas.

To have the balls to claim this is just unbelievable. The US ousted a democratically elected leader in Haiti, not to mention all other countries it has been indirectly responsible for the slaughter of thousands if not tens of thousands of civilians. Chile comes to mind.


This list for some reason doesn't mention the nations the US supports that are just as bad(if not worse) as some of these in the above seriously flawed list. Where does it mention US support for corrupt and brutal regimes in the M.E? Were does it mention nations in South America it is actively trying to oust democratically elected leaders(Venezuela) or supported murderous regimes(Chile)? Where does it mention US support for murderous regimes in Asia that have one of the worst human rights records in recent history? No where.

Has the US sometimes done good things. Of course. Has the US often done terrible things for it's own national interest. Hell yes!