[PacHead]

I am doing a few people here a favor by starting this thread, since certain people constantly derail threads on Muslim terrorists by constantly posting pictures of Timothy McVeigh, silly Iraq Prison pictures etc. on those threads.

To show that I am not biased about any other "evil-doers" in other religions, I started this thread, so we can all discuss the huge threat that is posed by Christian and Jewish terrorists and other religions against the USA, and how these are plotting to attack us, while they constantly call for dead Americans. Since these Christian and Jewish etc. Terrorists have declared war upon the entire western world and since they are flying planes into our buildings, I am interested in hearing about what other threats they pose to us, and how we can stop these Christian terrorists and Jewish etc. terrorists. The Christian terrorist training camps are especially an area of concern and they should all be bombed, and so are all the Jewish Rabbis and Christian priests who constantly spew hatred and call for bloody murder and outright killings when they hold their sermons.

Any suggestions as to how we can fight this huge problem that plagues the USA and the entire western world for that matter ?

[Millennium]

It leads to an interesting question: is it right to identify terrorists with anything other than what they claim their cause to be? It's often not even right to identify terrorists by their claimed cause, for example the false Muslims on their false jihad, calling themselves "al-Qaeda". Perhaps they should be identified simply as what they are: psychopathic murderers.

That said, if you want to identify terrorists by their claimed cause, I can give you an example of what you would call Christian terrorists in the US: they call themselves the Army of God. Their main modus operandi is to bomb abortion clinics.

[BlackGriffen]

Originally posted by Millennium:
That said, if you want to identify terrorists by their claimed cause, I can give you an example of what you would call Christian terrorists in the US: they call themselves the Army of God. Their main modus operandi is to bomb abortion clinics.

We've got secular ones, too. I don't know any organization names, but eco-terrorists are certainly more than just a pain in the butt.

BG

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Any suggestions as to how we can fight this huge problem that plagues the USA and the entire western world for that matter ?

Perhaps the best solution is a unilateral attack against terrorism... rather than targeting groups.

This has been the same problem with organized crime. The feds go after 1 or 2 people (while the rest frolick in the streets). Then they change their target (and the rest still party in the streets).

Until the US starts looking at every terrorist group, as terrorists. Rather than assign the stereotype to a certain race/religion... we will have a problem.


Again, just look at Oklahoma City. 2 years after an attempt on the WTC in a similar method. Should it have happened? Absolutely not. A guy of interest to the FBI for his association with anti-government groups should not have been allowed to freely drive a rented truck under a federal building without a search. Especially after all State/Fed's were notified to start being more observant, since the WTC could be repeated elsewhere.

But McVeigh didn't fit the streotype, so he raised no alarm.

If the US had a solid plan in place, it would been caught.


And you can bet that will be repeated. It's just too easy for it not to be. Sadly, all we are doing is waiting.


Police have gotten slightly smarter. They no longer give profiles or pics to the public unless they know for certain what the suspect looks like. Reason being that if they are wrong, people are on the lookout for someone who isn't the target (and not paying attention for the guy who really did it). They know that it would be an advantage to the supect for that to happen.


This came to their advantage when that beltway sniper was on the loose. One of the descriptions given to the media of a man that might be the suspect early on was very wrong. But the police said to discredit it right away because they weren't sure if that person really saw anything... or what that person saw. Ended up being nowhere near what the guy actually looked like.


Terrorism will always wear a mask. If your going to assume there's only 1 mask in this world, your dead wrong, and doomed to fail.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Perhaps they should be identified simply as what they are: psychopathic murderers.

I'd say it's more organized crime.

And there's another great example of sillyness:

FBI goes after Italian neighborhoods trying to stem organized crime... what develops in the mean time? Russian Mob. They go after them... Various gangs.

Never has there been a pure sweep of organized crime. They always target a specific group... and the others breed and grow.

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
Never has there been a pure sweep of organized crime. They always target a specific group... and the others breed and grow.

And in my opinion, that's because no one can claim to be in the "good" against the "bad" because there is no such thing as a purely "good" or purely "bad" guy. Hussein has a family, and raised them all as a father would...

Police is corruptible, because they are humans. Terrorists can be able of humanity, because often (not always) they do it for political motives that has to do with a need for justice. ( I am not naive enough to believe it is always so).

Millenium: Some terrorists are certainly psychopathic. But I would not generalize that diagnosis on all their cases.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by BlackGriffen:
We've got secular ones, too. I don't know any organization names, but eco-terrorists are certainly more than just a pain in the butt.

True, but he was asking for what he'd call Christian or Jewish terrorists. I don't think secular ones are quite what he's asking for. Then again, perhaps the fact that there are secular ones as well makes a point all its own.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by Millennium:
True, but he was asking for what he'd call Christian or Jewish terrorists. I don't think secular ones are quite what he's asking for. Then again, perhaps the fact that there are secular ones as well makes a point all its own.

Perhaps the more appropriate point is that terrorism isn't limited to theology.

[BlackGriffen]

Originally posted by Millennium:
True, but he was asking for what he'd call Christian or Jewish terrorists. I don't think secular ones are quite what he's asking for. Then again, perhaps the fact that there are secular ones as well makes a point all its own.

True. I really like macvillage's comparison with organized crime. You might say that terrorism is the political wing of organized crime. The commercial wing is extortion, black market goods, drugs, etc.

There are, of course, exceptions. Timothy McVeigh was, IIRC, more of a lone madman than an element of a criminal ring. Al Qaeda, however, certainly seems to fit the bill. They engage in the drug trade, money laundering, etc. Quite possibly even extortion - I doubt that the prince of Saudi Arabia would admit to paying protection money, but it seems like only recently that Al Qaeda and the Saudi government have come to blows. Yeah, I pulled it out of my butt, but it's still an interesting thought to consider.

BlackGriffen

[dialo]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Any suggestions as to how we can fight this huge problem that plagues the USA and the entire western world for that matter ?

Start targeting the Jewish Defense League more before we regret it.

Target other extremist groups so we weed out terrorists like white supremacists providing other white terrorists with chemical weapons as Bill Krar was until about a year ago.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Any suggestions as to how we can fight this huge problem that plagues the USA and the entire western world for that matter ?

I would suggest taking pages out of the War on Terrorism handbook: invade, bomb, haze, regime change of governments that allow these terrorists to exist within their borders.

Or, perhaps from the Israeli War on Terrorism handbook: use gunships and fighterplanes to target them in public areas and their places of congregation.

[Splinter]

Originally posted by PacHead:
I am doing a few people here a favor by starting this thread, since certain people constantly derail threads on Muslim terrorists by constantly posting pictures of Timothy McVeigh, silly Iraq Prison pictures etc. on those threads.

To show that I am not biased about any other "evil-doers" in other religions, I started this thread, so we can all discuss the huge threat that is posed by Christian and Jewish terrorists and other religions against the USA, and how these are plotting to attack us, while they constantly call for dead Americans. Since these Christian and Jewish etc. Terrorists have declared war upon the entire western world and since they are flying planes into our buildings, I am interested in hearing about what other threats they pose to us, and how we can stop these Christian terrorists and Jewish etc. terrorists. The Christian terrorist training camps are especially an area of concern and they should all be bombed, and so are all the Jewish Rabbis and Christian priests who constantly spew hatred and call for bloody murder and outright killings when they hold their sermons.

Any suggestions as to how we can fight this huge problem that plagues the USA and the entire western world for that matter ?

My "sarcasm sense" is tingling.

[Invictus]

Why would there be Christian or Jewish terrorism in the U.S. when they already have control. Yeah, there are some fanatical Christian extreme right groups but they seem to have crawled into the wood work since Oklahoma City. And the Jewish in the U.S., why would they do anything of a terrorist nature when they have a field day here?

Terrorism has been mainly directed to other countries that piss people off. Islamist extremists to the U.S. and the U.S. government in the form of financing and such to rebel groups in countries where the government is not favorable to the U.S.

[BlackGriffen]

Going back to the organized crime thing: the drug lords in Columbia certainly practice terrorist activities in their home nation.

BG

[PacHead]

Out of all the groups mentioned so far, which isn't many, none of these groups have declared war upon the United States to my knowledge, and the total number of people they have killed combined is what - - 10 ? 20 ?

So, I remain unconvinced that any of these poses a significant threat, which was what the thread was about afterall, not just naming random "terror" groups, some of which have never even killed anybody.

[UNTeMac]

Flamebait turned intelligent discussion with the original poster nowhere in sight...hmmm, there's hope for us yet.

[PacHead]

Originally posted by UNTiMac:
with the original poster nowhere in sight...hmmm,

I would like to direct your attention to the post directly above your post. Here is some more information in case you have difficulties in locating that post, which proves that your claim is mistaken.

Posted on : 07-25-2004 02:34 AM

[UNTeMac]

Originally posted by PacHead:
I would like to direct your attention to the post directly above your post. Here is some more information in case you have difficulties in locating that post, which proves that your claim is mistaken.

Posted on : 07-25-2004 02:34 AM

I was in junior high once too...

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by UNTiMac:
I was in junior high once too...

Yeah, so was I.

Though I think I was out of the "change marker colors for decoration and emphasis" phase by then...

-s*

[Taliesin]

A nice smoke-screen pachead you use here, I applaud you for that. You ask what christian or jewish terror-groups might attack the US, haha, but forget that the US-administration, the US-secret-agencies and the US-military itself are a christian terrorist-organization attacking other countries, obviously.

And that the israelic governments, secret agencies and army is a jewish terror-organization financed and equipped by the christian terrorist-organization in the US.

Invictus was the only other one so far in this thread to have realized that.

Taliesin

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by Taliesin:
A nice smoke-screen pachead you use here, I applaud you for that. You ask what christian or jewish terror-groups might attack the US, haha, but forget that the US-administration, the US-secret-agencies and the US-military itself are a christian terrorist-organization attacking other countries, obviously.

And that the israelic governments, secret agencies and army is a jewish terror-organization financed and equipped by the christian terrorist-organization in the US.

Invictus was the only other one so far in this thread to have realized that.

Taliesin

So the CIA uses the Torah and the Bible when planning their covert operations?

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Out of all the groups mentioned so far, which isn't many, none of these groups have declared war upon the United States to my knowledge, and the total number of people they have killed combined is what - - 10 ? 20 ?

So, I remain unconvinced that any of these poses a significant threat, which was what the thread was about afterall, not just naming random "terror" groups, some of which have never even killed anybody.

Yea....

Gangs, Organized Crime, Christian Milita groups... 10-20 (perhaps per day).

There are quite a few hispanic gangs that are *very* Christian centric.

But we won't count those.


Your completely ignoring everything you don't want to see (as usual).


Organized crime is still a major problem here in the US. It accounts for a signifigant amount of homocides in several cities in the US. It accounts for a large number of other violent crimes.

It's also a growing problem as minority commmunities increase, and the poverty divide increases.

[Millennium]

Invictus was the only other one so far in this thread to have realized that.

Actually, he didn't "realize" it at all. He simply pointed out that why would a Christian or Jewish group attack the US when Christians and Jews together hold most of the power base? If terrorism is about control, then it makes no sense to undermine your own claimed cause (granted, this has never stopped al-Qaeda, but they're something of a special case).

He did not, however, put forth the ridiculous assertion that the US is a terrorist organization.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
Yea....

Gangs, Organized Crime, Christian Milita groups... 10-20 (perhaps per day).

There are quite a few hispanic gangs that are *very* Christian centric.

But we won't count those.

Can gangs really be counted as terrorist organizations? For the most part, they tend to restrict their killings to other gangs. It's a different scale of combat than the military scale but once again the fight is usually taken only to other fighters.

Likewise, organized crime doesn't fit the terrorist model either. A large part of the point of terrorism is calling as much attention to yourself as possible. Organized crime, on the other hand, tries to deflect attention away from itself as much as possible, because unwanted attention tends to be a Bad Thing. This difference in philosophy actually has some important ramifications: among them, organized crime generally doesn't kill when it can be helped (never mind the stuff you see on HBO), and even when they do kill it is usually directed at other rings.

Once again, we see a distinct difference between "war vs. the innocent" and "war vs. other warriors". The former could be called terrorism, but the latter is not.

Organized crime is still a major problem here in the US. It accounts for a signifigant amount of homocides in several cities in the US.

I assume you mean "homicide". In any case, organized crime accounts for fewer homicides than you might think. Certainly it happens, but once again, it attracts enough unwanted attention that it's considered too risky in most situations.

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Can gangs really be counted as terrorist organizations? For the most part, they tend to restrict their killings to other gangs. It's a different scale of combat than the military scale but once again the fight is usually taken only to other fighters.

Likewise, organized crime doesn't fit the terrorist model either. A large part of the point of terrorism is calling as much attention to yourself as possible. Organized crime, on the other hand, tries to deflect attention away from itself as much as possible, because unwanted attention tends to be a Bad Thing. This difference in philosophy actually has some important ramifications: among them, organized crime generally doesn't kill when it can be helped (never mind the stuff you see on HBO), and even when they do kill it is usually directed at other rings.

Once again, we see a distinct difference between "war vs. the innocent" and "war vs. other warriors". The former could be called terrorism, but the latter is not.

I assume you mean "homicide". In any case, organized crime accounts for fewer homicides than you might think. Certainly it happens, but once again, it attracts enough unwanted attention that it's considered too risky in most situations.

Good points, but why are we afraid of organized crime?

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Can gangs really be counted as terrorist organizations? For the most part, they tend to restrict their killings to other gangs. It's a different scale of combat than the military scale but once again the fight is usually taken only to other fighters.

Likewise, organized crime doesn't fit the terrorist model either. A large part of the point of terrorism is calling as much attention to yourself as possible. Organized crime, on the other hand, tries to deflect attention away from itself as much as possible, because unwanted attention tends to be a Bad Thing. This difference in philosophy actually has some important ramifications: among them, organized crime generally doesn't kill when it can be helped (never mind the stuff you see on HBO), and even when they do kill it is usually directed at other rings.

Once again, we see a distinct difference between "war vs. the innocent" and "war vs. other warriors". The former could be called terrorism, but the latter is not.

I assume you mean "homicide". In any case, organized crime accounts for fewer homicides than you might think. Certainly it happens, but once again, it attracts enough unwanted attention that it's considered too risky in most situations.

Perhaps Bloods vs. Crypts keeps violence in gangs.

But I know many who target others:

Religions
Ethnic Backgrounds
Even Citizenship

They will defend their community against outsiders at all costs. Definately a hazard.

In NYC the Jewish community has been targeted by many of these groups over the past 20-30 years.


Organized crime may not fit the model of 'terrorism' when you restrict it enough... but the problems associated with it are exactly the same: violence.

If terrorism was about attention (which I agree it 100% is), and only attention... it wouldn't be a problem. It would be a noisy group of people.

What makes them both a problem is violence.


That doesn't even discuss of course the violence associated with drug trafficing (and selling on someone else's self-proclaimed turf), and people just caught in the middle of that action.

Nor do people normally associate arson (a favorite of gangs) with violence... though people still do die from arson. Problem is authorities despite best efforts can't always trace and make a good case on arson. Authorities are good... but not always goood enough.

[fxbezak]

Is this kinda like how Israel bombed the liberty then denied they knew it was a US ship?

[Invictus]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Actually, he didn't "realize" it at all. He simply pointed out that why would a Christian or Jewish group attack the US when Christians and Jews together hold most of the power base? If terrorism is about control, then it makes no sense to undermine your own claimed cause (granted, this has never stopped al-Qaeda, but they're something of a special case).

He did not, however, put forth the ridiculous assertion that the US is a terrorist organization.

I said the U.S. government (not the U.S....yes to me they are two different things) finances and supplies foreign groups as it sees fit.

Some of these organizations have been known to use mass murder, torture, and rape to achieve their goals. This seems like terror stuff to me.

Shrub himself has quoted many times if you support terrorism you are a terrorist.

So only one simple conclusion can be drawn. It's not that complicated, if you believe Bush.

This isn't a Republican or Democrat thing. This has been going on thru the last century with all administrations.

I guess terrorism to some isn't terrorism to others. Pick and choose to placate yourself. And I guess you can also conclude that if you're on the good guy side the things you do to 'SCARE THE SH!T' out of people can be overlooked as regular business to be done in the course of events to achieve said goal and not terrorism.

Hmmm...I wonder if terrorists who believe they are fighting for a righteous cause think this way too? I do know Millennium appears to think this way.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by Invictus:
I guess terrorism to some isn't terrorism to others. Pick and choose to placate yourself. And I guess you can also conclude that if you're on the good guy side the things you do to 'SCARE THE SH!T' out of people can be overlooked as regular business to be done in the course of events to achieve said goal and not terrorism

Here's a great debate here.

We had it a few months ago.

How can we create terrorism laws without defining terrorism? It can be anything from a silly high school prank to killing hundreds of thousands of people.

Most people right now don't want a hard definition... but want some laws.

Now what prevents a corrupt politican from applying it elsewhere?

Why can't a cop pull someone over for speeding and charge them with terrorism and hold them indefinately? They were __intentinally__ being a hazard, and creating a potentially fatal situation, wher emany could die (could hit a school bus). Why isn't that terrorism?

What about Drunk Driving?


If I could apply it to those, I could hold hundreds of thousands of Americans every year in jail indefinately without trial, or legal counsil.

I'd clean up the streets... but I know there are many people falsely accused.

Heck I can think of more than once case where someone was arrested for drunk driving. And upon bail went to the hospital for a blood test. In only a few hourswent from being over 2.5X the legal limit to 0 BAL. Medically impossible. Blaimed on faulty equipment. More than once has that happened. They don't refund you for the bail money (even if you try to take them to court)... but you do eventually get those charges dropped if you have the cash to waste all the time/effort on it. As a sidenote: If you think you are not as drunk as they say... may want to do that. Also note in most states it's your legal right for a cop to take you to the hospital for a blood test if you *request* it. In some states they can do it themselves (and there have been reports of suspected disease transmission due to it)... I'd personally keep away from someone without proper training extracting blood.

[Taliesin]

Originally posted by angaq0k:
So the CIA uses the Torah and the Bible when planning their covert operations?

Not only the CIA, but also the pentagon while using their para-militaries or the regular army, or the navy or the airforce..

The only difference is that these US-organizations have a state behind them, that does the groundwork in terms of justification and ideology, so they don't need to do it anymore on their own, while the islamistic terror-organizations have to do it themselves over and over again, because they don't have a state behind them doing the intellectual/philosohical/ideological work.

One could argue that the US-government is a secular government, including all the governmental organizations, like the pentagon and the CIA, and therefore can't be called christian terrorists.

But the concept of "secularism" is also part of christianity, exactly the part that deals with this life, while ignoring everything of christianity that deals with the after-life, the beyond, God, angels, fate etc... for practical purposes, and espescially in order to get independent from the catholic church and the vatican in rome, which is/was a requirement for souvereign nations!

Taliesin