[dcolton]

There is hope for California yet.

LOS ANGELES — It isn’t exactly the season for “Jingle Bells” and Santa Claus, but one man is on a crusade to save Christmas anyway.

Manuel Zammarano has formed the Committee to Save Merry Christmas (search) to protest the fact that big retailers profit from Christmas shopping dollars but refuse to mention the holiday by name.

His group has boycotted Federated Department Stores Inc. (search), which owns Bloomingdale’s and Macy’s, for collecting Christmas cash without giving Christmas credit for all the end-of-year gift buying.

Federated issued a statement saying phrases like “Season’s Greetings” and “Happy Holidays” embrace all religious and ethnic celebrations that take place in November and December and are more appropriate for the “many diverse cultures in America today.”

Macy’s also points out that it features Santa in its parade and plays Christmas music in its stores.

But Zammarano says that such gestures mean little as long as retailers give in to political correctness.

[macvillage.net]

Or we can go back to Christians attempting to sue a jewish store owner for having a banner celebrating a non-christian holiday during the season., and in a small banner below it saying 'merry christmas'.

[dcolton]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
Or we can go back to Christians attempting to sue a jewish store owner for having a banner celebrating a non-christian holiday during the season., and in a small banner below it saying 'merry christmas'.

Do you believe in supporting your statements with links?

[Tater Salad]

I'm not a Christian, and I hate it when these communist run school shove their PC propaganda and relativistic values down kids throats.
Merry CHRISTmas in August.

[MacGorilla]

I'm not Christain myself but I don't have a problem with Merry Christmas banners and stuff in stores. I think it embodies a feeling, a time of joy and hope that transcends all relgious meaning.

[BlackGriffen]

I, frankly, don't give a $hit one way or another. If any Christians here don't think that, for society as a whole, X-mas hasn't become a commercialized parody of what it was originally, they're deluding themselves.

Oh, yeah, do you think calling it X-mas is an attempt to remove Christ/religion from Christmas? If you do, then you're ignorant of the tradition (Eastern Orthodox at least) of Christ's symbol being the Greek letter "chi," which looks a lot like 'X.' Don't let me get in the way of you scapegoating atheists for the world's problems, though.

BlackGriffen

[Tater Salad]

If it was so commercialized, don't you think people would rather stay inside and look through catalogs than go to the Eve's services?

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by BlackGriffen:
I, frankly, don't give a $hit one way or another. If any Christians here don't think that, for society as a whole, X-mas hasn't become a commercialized parody of what it was originally, they're deluding themselves.

Oh, yeah, do you think calling it X-mas is an attempt to remove Christ/religion from Christmas? If you do, then you're ignorant of the tradition (Eastern Orthodox at least) of Christ's symbol being the Greek letter "chi," which looks a lot like 'X.' Don't let me get in the way of you scapegoating atheists for the world's problems, though.

BlackGriffen

Actually, only a handful of countries exchange gifts on Christmas.

The actual tradition is for St. Nicholas day (early december).

Merchants pushed the idea of doing it on christmas (and linked the holidays) because it extens the shopping season by a few weeks (more time to advertise, more time to restock sold out products etc.)


So equating gift giving with christmas is rather bogus, and not even christian. It's American.


Just like fortune cookies have nothing to do with China (it was a new yorker I believe).

[Tater Salad]

Cynicism and America bashing never sounded so good.

[OldManMac]

Watch out, dcolton, there's an atheist sneaking up on you, and he's going to try to convert you! Just thought I'd give you a warning.

[Tater Salad]

Watch out, KarlG, there's a Christian and a Jew sneaking up on you, and he's going to try to convert you! Just thought I'd give you a warning.

[undotwa]

Originally posted by BlackGriffen:
I, frankly, don't give a $hit one way or another. If any Christians here don't think that, for society as a whole, X-mas hasn't become a commercialized parody of what it was originally, they're deluding themselves.

Oh, yeah, do you think calling it X-mas is an attempt to remove Christ/religion from Christmas? If you do, then you're ignorant of the tradition (Eastern Orthodox at least) of Christ's symbol being the Greek letter "chi," which looks a lot like 'X.' Don't let me get in the way of you scapegoating atheists for the world's problems, though.

BlackGriffen

'Chi' is simply the first letter of Christ (when transliterated into English you get 'ch', hence Christ but not Krist.

X-mas is purely a way to hide the essence of the Christmas holidays, that is obvious. Most people don't know what a 'chi' is, or Greek.

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by Tater Salad:
If it was so commercialized, don't you think people would rather stay inside and look through catalogs than go to the Eve's services?

Where, exactly do you live?
I went to service a few years ago to celebrate the time of year with some loved ones who are religious. I am not christian but had a nice time.
There were maybe 10 or 15 people MAX all night.

I would say most people DID stay home that night...

Anyway, since Christmas is a fictitious holiday made up from a pagan sun-god worship who really cares what it represents now, if this is the time to spend money to make businesses money and keep costs level the rest of the year so be it.

"The date of December 25th comes from Rome and was a celebration of the Italic god, Saturn, and the rebirth of the sun god.
This was done long before the birth of Jesus.
It was noted by the pre-Christian Romans and other pagans, that daylight began to Increase after December 22nd, when they assumed that the sun god died.
These ancients believed that the sun god rose from the dead three days later as the new-born and venerable sun."

Hmm, sounds like another fable I know...

[BlackGriffen]

Originally posted by undotwa:
'Chi' is simply the first letter of Christ (when transliterated into English you get 'ch', hence Christ but not Krist.

X-mas is purely a way to hide the essence of the Christmas holidays, that is obvious. Most people don't know what a 'chi' is, or Greek.

Nope, if I my understanding is correct, is was originally a way to abbreviate the christ part of christmas.

Just because people forgot the meaning of the 'chi' doesn't mean that there's some insidious plot.

Also noteworthy is that some traditions hold that Christ wasn't born so close to the winter solstice. They (Mormanism among them, I believe) hold that many of the holidays are placed where they are to 'compete' with pre-existing pagan holidays. Things like celebrating the winter solstice, and the coming for spring. WTF does the easter bunny have to do with the crucifixion? Or eggs, for that matter? Why isn't it a specific day of the year, instead of what it is (first Sunday of some month or some such)?

Face it, modern christianity is the bastard child of a Jewish sect, pagan practices, and Roman imperialism. Hardly a divine combination, to my way of thinking.

BlackGriffen

[undotwa]

Originally posted by BlackGriffen:
Nope, if I my understanding is correct, is was originally a way to abbreviate the christ part of christmas.

Just because people forgot the meaning of the 'chi' doesn't mean that there's some insidious plot.

Also noteworthy is that some traditions hold that Christ wasn't born so close to the winter solstice. They (Mormanism among them, I believe) hold that many of the holidays are placed where they are to 'compete' with pre-existing pagan holidays. Things like celebrating the winter solstice, and the coming for spring. WTF does the easter bunny have to do with the crucifixion? Or eggs, for that matter? Why isn't it a specific day of the year, instead of what it is (first Sunday of some month or some such)?

Face it, modern christianity is the bastard child of a Jewish sect, pagan practices, and Roman imperialism. Hardly a divine combination, to my way of thinking.

BlackGriffen

Whatever you think of Christianity, I stand by what I said. I did not negate what you said about X-mas simply becoming an alternative, I simply added to your statement suggesting that the letter 'chi' was used not because of its shape but because it was the first letter of the word Christos (ch being a Latin transliteration of chi).

But let me correct a few things in this latest post:

Easter Date: This was not placed at this time of year because of pagan festivals. The date simply is at that time because of the Jewish Passover (this being the new covenent replacing the old passover convenent). However the term Easter is an Germanic word derived from a pagan festival. However in the Romance languages pascha is used. Easter is on Sunday because Jesus rose on the third day (and he died on Friday).

Eggs and bunnies were of course pagan stuff. There isn't anything really wrong with it, because eggs symbolise new life (Jesus rising from the dead) and bunnies are cute. I tend to dislike this stuff though.

Christmas Date: Probably was put at that time to replace a pagan holiday. In no way is it heretical to do this, a date is a just a date. It probably wasn't even celebrated by the early Christians as the focus was not when Christ was born, but when he died (Good Friday).

Jewish Sect: Catholics believe that Christianity is not only a Jewish sect, but in fact a fufillment of Orthodox Judaism. Pope John Paul II said 'We are all spiritually Jews." Call me Jewish

Pagan Practices: Sure some of this stuff was mixed in along the way, but it was modified to conform with Christian teachings. Holidays aren't doctrine, nor are Easter traditions. But they are fun, and have a symbolic meaning. Jesus Christ wasn't necessarily born on Christmas Day, it only symbolises his birth.

Roman Imperialism: You should read more on this. That is a very complicated issue. The relations between Church and State were never that rosy. Never did the State actually control the Church. After Constantine the Great died the empire backlashed against Christianity. Even during the Renaissance times were troubled. Officially, the Church condemned the practices of the Spanish. Edicts were made. But in practice, because of Spanish supremacy, the Church was powerless. Despite this, the Spanish were unable to 'control' the teaching Church.

[BlackGriffen]

Originally posted by undotwa:
Holidays aren't doctrine, nor are Easter traditions. But they are fun, and have a symbolic meaning.

I'm glad you made that distinction, because I forgot to make it explicit. Of course the Bible (doctrine) isn't born from that mishmash, but the traditions and dogma are.

BG

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by undotwa:
Christmas Date: Probably was put at that time to replace a pagan holiday. In no way is it heretical to do this, a date is a just a date. It probably wasn't even celebrated by the early Christians as the focus was not when Christ was born, but when he died (Good Friday).

Astronomers believe it was actually sometime in the summer, based on biblical notes, roman records, and of course the shining star.

It most definately wasn't December. Most estimates put it between Apr. and Sept. Most commonly July-August.


Also Jesus wasn't born on 0 AD. He was a few years late.

[BlackGriffen]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
Astronomers believe it was actually sometime in the summer, based on biblical notes, roman records, and of course the shining star.

It most definately wasn't December. Most estimates put it between Apr. and Sept. Most commonly July-August.


Also Jesus wasn't born on 0 AD. He was a few years late.

Especially since there was no 0 AD, there was 1 AD and 1 BC. IIRC, they didn't even have the concept of zero as a number at the time.

BG

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by BlackGriffen:
Especially since there was no 0 AD, there was 1 AD and 1 BC. IIRC, they didn't even have the concept of zero as a number at the time.

BG

Actually I believe it's something like 32 AD.

[OldManMac]

I've heard of babies being a few weeks late, but a few years? His mother must have been a saint.

[Dakar]

Geez. Christians complain they're always being singled-out and now that they're being treated like every other religion during the holidays, they cry for attention.

On a personal note, last time I checked, Christmas didn't hinge upon whether a few commercial enterprises recognized (or accentuated) your holiday or not.

[dcolton]

Originally posted by Dakar:
Geez. Christians complain they're always being singled-out and now that they're being treated like every other religion during the holidays, they cry for attention.

On a personal note, last time I checked, Christmas didn't hinge upon whether a few commercial enterprises recognized (or accentuated) your holiday or not.

Jewish kids are excused from school for Hannakah(sp?)and other religions, IIRC, are excused from school for their holidays...but Christian kids don't take a Christmas Holiday, they take a winter break during the holiday season.

Not sure I am communicating my point too well, but do you get my point?

Oh...and you are 100% correct, christmas isn't dependent upon commercial enterprises. Thanks for reminding me. But...I do find it to be quite hypocritical of commercial outlets to pander to a holiday for profit while not actually recognizing the holiday. Hell. I don't care if they do't recognize the birth of Jesus...but they can at least use the name.

[Mr. Bob]

Hey, how about those cool gods of yester year, you know, like Zeus, and Ra. Hell, we can even mix different religions together to make some kind of super religion and take the best parts of each.

If there is a gap, we can just make up a new god or diet. I also think we should have multiple gods in some kind of bi-cameral system. This way one god is not stronger then any other. Also, they need to be re-elected each century or so, to make sure that they don’t slack off.

Maybe even construct some kind of trading card game too, to get the word out. People can play, and learn about their new meta-physical masters at the same time.

I already know who’s gonna be my god of choice, Bartafoulous, God of laziness. This way I can take 5 out of 7 days off each week (mandatory sabbaticals of course). And I cannot be fired because then that would be infringing on my freedom of religion.

P.S. I am probably being an ass, for this I apologize.

[dcolton]

Originally posted by Mr. Bob:

P.S. I am probably being an ass, for this I apologize.

No your not...that was funny.

[Dakar]

Originally posted by dcolton:
Jewish kids are excused from school for Hannakah(sp?)and other religions, IIRC, are excused from school for their holidays...but Christian kids don't take a Christmas Holiday, they take a winter break during the holiday season.

Not sure I am communicating my point too well, but do you get my point?

I understand what you're saying, but consider this: WInter Break is timied where it is BECAUSE so many people celebrate Christmas. In letting the Jewish time -off to celebrate their holiday they are only extending them the same favor they give Christians with the aptly timed Winter Break.

Originally posted by dcolton:
Oh...and you are 100% correct, christmas isn't dependent upon commercial enterprises. Thanks for reminding me. But...I do find it to be quite hypocritical of commercial outlets to pander to a holiday for profit while not actually recognizing the holiday. Hell. I don't care if they do't recognize the birth of Jesus...but they can at least use the name.

Well, I have very little respect for commercialism (As how it is run nowadays). Personally, I believe it is chipping away at quality of life in this country more than any rampant 'social liberalism.'

But hey, that's another topic entirely.

[dcolton]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dakar:
I understand what you're saying, but consider this: WInter Break is timied where it is BECAUSE so many people celebrate Christmas. In letting the Jewish time -off to celebrate their holiday they are only extending them the same favor they give Christians with the aptly timed Winter Break.

Or, winter break is scheduled to take place when 1/2 of the school year is over.

At any rate...let's see if we can come up with a list of religious holidays that fall around christmas time:

Christmas
Hannakah
Ramadhan
(That;s all I know of)

Well, I have very little respect for commercialism (As how it is run nowadays). Personally, I believe it is chipping away at quality of life in this country more than any rampant 'social liberalism.'

But hey, that's another topic entirely. [/B]

Nah, if we got rid of social liberalism, we wouldn't have the problem of rampart commercialization...but as you said...another topic completely

[Dakar]

Originally posted by dcolton:
Nah, if we got rid of social liberalism, we wouldn't have the problem of rampart commercialization...but as you said...another topic completely

Now that's an intersting theory. Don't see the connection though.

BTW, I haven't ignored your post in the other thread, just don't have the time at work today for a well thought out reply.

[cpt kangarooski]

dcolton--

Jewish kids are excused from school for Hannakah(sp?)

I never was. No one I ever knew was. And I cannot imagine anyone bothering to. This is because 1) Hanukkah (properly spelled חנכה ) is only really celebrated at night, and 2) it is an incredibly trivial holiday that is not really important. It would be like skipping school for a very minor Christian holiday... maybe a saint's feast day? I dunno what the equivalent would be.

Jewish holidays that are actually worth skipping school over would be Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur or Pesach. Maybe Sukkot. I can't imagine anyone skipping school over Hanukkah; what the hell for?

[dcolton]

Originally posted by cpt kangarooski:
dcolton--


I never was. No one I ever knew was. And I cannot imagine anyone bothering to. This is because 1) Hanukkah (properly spelled חנכה ) is only really celebrated at night, and 2) it is an incredibly trivial holiday that is not really important. It would be like skipping school for a very minor Christian holiday... maybe a saint's feast day? I dunno what the equivalent would be.

Jewish holidays that are actually worth skipping school over would be Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur or Pesach. Maybe Sukkot. I can't imagine anyone skipping school over Hanukkah; what the hell for?

Fair enough. Going to school in VA...Jewish kids were let out during חנכה and a few other days as you mentioned above. I am sure it isnt the same everywhere...but my point is that we will recognize every holiday BUT a Christian holiday.

[cpt kangarooski]

dcolton--

Fair enough. Going to school in VA...Jewish kids were let out during חנכה and a few other days as you mentioned above.

Getting let out for Hanukkah indicates that either those kids are astoundingly devout -- or more likely were out for some free time off. 'Course I always took the day off for Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, but to be honest, I would have rather been in school -- those aren't fun holidays.

I am sure it isnt the same everywhere...but my point is that we will recognize every holiday BUT a Christian holiday.

No, you're wrong. And as usual you're over reacting and suffering from a persecution complex or something. The only school I've ever been to where Jewish holidays were recognized -- i.e. everyone got the day off -- was when I went to college. And honestly, I don't think it's unexpected for Brandeis to do that.

Letting people take a day or two off for holidays that are personal to them is NOT the same as recognizing the holiday. It's just, basically, a personal day, no different as far as the school is concerned, from medical appointments, funerals, family trips, and so forth. As long as your parent is making the request and you're not missing too much school, they'll generally honor it.

I guarantee you, any Christian parent that wants to have their kids out of school for the day for a religious holiday will be affored PRECISELY the same courtesy. And this probably happens, given that, e.g. Orthodox Christianity has different dates for events than Catholics or protestants. If you know anyone that's Greek Orthodox, you could probably ask.

But as it stands, you have a lot of nerve whining about how Christians are treated. Sundays are recognized as being the most inviolate day of the weekend. Spring and winter breaks for schools INVARIABLY give Christians time off for Christmas and Easter.

So don't bitch. Christians are not being persecuted -- they've been the ones doing the persecution since the time of Constantine.

[TheMosco]

Originally posted by cpt kangarooski:
dcolton--


Getting let out for Hanukkah indicates that either those kids are astoundingly devout -- or more likely were out for some free time off. 'Course I always took the day off for Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, but to be honest, I would have rather been in school -- those aren't fun holidays.



No, you're wrong. And as usual you're over reacting and suffering from a persecution complex or something. The only school I've ever been to where Jewish holidays were recognized -- i.e. everyone got the day off -- was when I went to college. And honestly, I don't think it's unexpected for Brandeis to do that.

Letting people take a day or two off for holidays that are personal to them is NOT the same as recognizing the holiday. It's just, basically, a personal day, no different as far as the school is concerned, from medical appointments, funerals, family trips, and so forth. As long as your parent is making the request and you're not missing too much school, they'll generally honor it.

I guarantee you, any Christian parent that wants to have their kids out of school for the day for a religious holiday will be affored PRECISELY the same courtesy. And this probably happens, given that, e.g. Orthodox Christianity has different dates for events than Catholics or protestants. If you know anyone that's Greek Orthodox, you could probably ask.

But as it stands, you have a lot of nerve whining about how Christians are treated. Sundays are recognized as being the most inviolate day of the weekend. Spring and winter breaks for schools INVARIABLY give Christians time off for Christmas and Easter.

So don't bitch. Christians are not being persecuted -- they've been the ones doing the persecution since the time of Constantine.

++SMACKDOWN++

I actually have no problem people the word Christmas. I actually hate when people call it XMAS.

[Demonhood]

Businesses use "Season’s Greetings” and “Happy Holidays" to appeal to the most religions and to offend the least amount of people (potential customers). They use Christmas music and images of Santa because a large portion of the American population recognize it and associate it with gifts and good times. If there were more Jews than Christians in the US, they'd change their imagery to appeal to them while throwing in snowflakes, snowmen, etc.. to appeal to everyone else.

What's so hard to understand here? The lawsuit is pointless whining.

[OldManMac]

Originally posted by cpt kangarooski:
dcolton--


Getting let out for Hanukkah indicates that either those kids are astoundingly devout -- or more likely were out for some free time off. 'Course I always took the day off for Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, but to be honest, I would have rather been in school -- those aren't fun holidays.



No, you're wrong. And as usual you're over reacting and suffering from a persecution complex or something. The only school I've ever been to where Jewish holidays were recognized -- i.e. everyone got the day off -- was when I went to college. And honestly, I don't think it's unexpected for Brandeis to do that.

Letting people take a day or two off for holidays that are personal to them is NOT the same as recognizing the holiday. It's just, basically, a personal day, no different as far as the school is concerned, from medical appointments, funerals, family trips, and so forth. As long as your parent is making the request and you're not missing too much school, they'll generally honor it.

I guarantee you, any Christian parent that wants to have their kids out of school for the day for a religious holiday will be affored PRECISELY the same courtesy. And this probably happens, given that, e.g. Orthodox Christianity has different dates for events than Catholics or protestants. If you know anyone that's Greek Orthodox, you could probably ask.

But as it stands, you have a lot of nerve whining about how Christians are treated. Sundays are recognized as being the most inviolate day of the weekend. Spring and winter breaks for schools INVARIABLY give Christians time off for Christmas and Easter.

So don't bitch. Christians are not being persecuted -- they've been the ones doing the persecution since the time of Constantine.

Everybody sees it but you; as usual, you're overreacting and suffering from a persecution complex. SMACKDOWN!

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by cpt kangarooski:
dcolton--


Getting let out for Hanukkah indicates that either those kids are astoundingly devout -- or more likely were out for some free time off. 'Course I always took the day off for Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, but to be honest, I would have rather been in school -- those aren't fun holidays.



No, you're wrong. And as usual you're over reacting and suffering from a persecution complex or something. The only school I've ever been to where Jewish holidays were recognized -- i.e. everyone got the day off -- was when I went to college. And honestly, I don't think it's unexpected for Brandeis to do that.

Letting people take a day or two off for holidays that are personal to them is NOT the same as recognizing the holiday. It's just, basically, a personal day, no different as far as the school is concerned, from medical appointments, funerals, family trips, and so forth. As long as your parent is making the request and you're not missing too much school, they'll generally honor it.

I guarantee you, any Christian parent that wants to have their kids out of school for the day for a religious holiday will be affored PRECISELY the same courtesy. And this probably happens, given that, e.g. Orthodox Christianity has different dates for events than Catholics or protestants. If you know anyone that's Greek Orthodox, you could probably ask.

But as it stands, you have a lot of nerve whining about how Christians are treated. Sundays are recognized as being the most inviolate day of the weekend. Spring and winter breaks for schools INVARIABLY give Christians time off for Christmas and Easter.

So don't bitch. Christians are not being persecuted -- they've been the ones doing the persecution since the time of Constantine.

I felt compelled to do it... I dunno why...

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by dcolton:
Jewish kids are excused from school for Hannakah(sp?)and other religions, IIRC, are excused from school for their holidays...but Christian kids don't take a Christmas Holiday, they take a winter break during the holiday season.

Umm... yea they do. At least in NJ (and most of the civilized world) you can be excused in a public school for any religous activity, provided it's a universal holiday. Hence a priest couldn't write you a note to get off from school... but if your Muslim, Jewish, Buddist, etc, and you need to leave early to get home before the sun goes down, or spend a day home, that's an excused absence. IIRC there's some federal discrimination laws that also cover this area (and apply to employers as well).

I know quite a few Jewish friends take a few days off for religious purposes where college doesn't cover it. People of other faiths too.

All you need is a parental note specifying that your of that faith, and the holiday. Any school has a giant list of EVERY holiday known. And I mean a giant list (I'd bet nobody here heard of half of the holiday's listed) so they can validate it's not some kid trying to get a free day off.

Quite a few schools now keep it on record, and confirm with a note for the child a week or so before so a parent can just sign and return the slip (and the school knows not to expect the child in school for attendance purposes). Makes it even easier.

Originally posted by Demonhood:
Businesses use "Season’s Greetings” and “Happy Holidays" to appeal to the most religions and to offend the least amount of people (potential customers). They use Christmas music and images of Santa because a large portion of the American population recognize it and associate it with gifts and good times. If there were more Jews than Christians in the US, they'd change their imagery to appeal to them while throwing in snowflakes, snowmen, etc.. to appeal to everyone else.

What's so hard to understand here? The lawsuit is pointless whining.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Mr. Bob:
Hey, how about those cool gods of yester year, you know, like Zeus, and Ra. Hell, we can even mix different religions together to make some kind of super religion and take the best parts of each.

FYI, it's called Unitarian Universalism. I attend a UU church on occassion, neat people.

[olePigeon]

Happy Solstice, everyone. May the Goddess bless you.

[DeathToWindows]

Originally posted by dcolton:
Jewish kids are excused from school for Hannakah(sp?)and other religions, IIRC, are excused from school for their holidays...but Christian kids don't take a Christmas Holiday, they take a winter break during the holiday season.

Ok, let's see: in my town (where the school population is between 33% and 50% Jewish) we get exactly two holidays off during the school year:

Rosh Hashana - the Jewish New Year
Yom Kippur - the Day of Atonement

They are considered the most important holidays in Judaism and if you have such a perscution complex that you think that we shouldn't get them off, I suggest you opt to live somewhere that gives NO days off for any holidays - that means I don't get days off for my religous holidays, but you dont get christmas or easter off either.

And the "Christmas Holiday" is winter break : Chanukkah rarely overlaps with the 7-10 day period known as winter break.

[dcolton]

Originally posted by DeathToWindows:
Ok, let's see: in my town (where the school population is between 33% and 50% Jewish) we get exactly two holidays off during the school year:

Rosh Hashana - the Jewish New Year
Yom Kippur - the Day of Atonement

They are considered the most important holidays in Judaism and if you have such a perscution complex that you think that we shouldn't get them off, I suggest you opt to live somewhere that gives NO days off for any holidays - that means I don't get days off for my religous holidays, but you dont get christmas or easter off either.

And the "Christmas Holiday" is winter break : Chanukkah rarely overlaps with the 7-10 day period known as winter break.

You miss the point. I have no problem with Jewish kids or kids of any other faith getting time off for their religious holidays. I encourage it. NOnehteless, so many macnn participants like macvillage are so full of hate, they do a great job of missing the point in their attempt to spew their insults and fortify their attacks. It is even better when Demonhood spews his opinion, embolding the left to attack even more.

The point is simple. It is okay for other religions to have a holiday recognized by the school system and the governemnt...but god forbid a Chiristian holiday is called by name. You get yom kippur off...GREAT! Christians get a spring break. You het Rosh Hashana off. GREAT! Christians get a winter break. If the gov't were to dare call any of these christian holdiays by name, the anti-God zealots would have a field day.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
Happy Solstice, everyone. May the Goddess bless you.

Actually, it would be "Yuletide Greetings", but that's good too... the Goddess, Holy Spirit, the Shekinah, etc. are all one in the same anyway.

[BRussell]

A couple of things about Christmas that bother me:

1. If people knew he was the messiah at his birth, why was he lost for most of the rest of his life until the last year or so? Why isn't every aspect of his life recorded? Why did he not "come out" until many years later?

2. Why are there different stories of how he got from Nazareth to Bethlehem in the Bible - was it a census or an attempt to hide from Herod? Was it an attempt to make Jesus, who was really from Nazareth, fulfill a prophecy of being born in Bethlehem?

3. Why don't the earliest Gospels talk about the virgin birth? Is it because the idea was added later to add a little something?

I believe the Easter story is essentially true - going to the temple, causing some trouble, being crucified. But virtually everything about the Christmas story rings false - Dec. 25th, three wise men, star, virgin birth, and taking place in Bethlehem rather than Nazareth.

[undotwa]

Originally posted by BRussell:
A couple of things about Christmas that bother me:

1. If people knew he was the messiah at his birth, why was he lost for most of the rest of his life until the last year or so? Why isn't every aspect of his life recorded? Why did he not "come out" until many years later?

2. Why are there different stories of how he got from Nazareth to Bethlehem in the Bible - was it a census or an attempt to hide from Herod? Was it an attempt to make Jesus, who was really from Nazareth, fulfill a prophecy of being born in Bethlehem?

3. Why don't the earliest Gospels talk about the virgin birth? Is it because the idea was added later to add a little something?

I believe the Easter story is essentially true - going to the temple, causing some trouble, being crucified. But virtually everything about the Christmas story rings false - Dec. 25th, three wise men, star, virgin birth, and taking place in Bethlehem rather than Nazareth.

None of the authors of the Gospels were around at the time of the birth of Jesus Christ. The tales were most likely stories they heard from secondary sources. Not much attention is given to the Birth of Jesus because it was deemed not important, nor was his childhood. The Passion of Christ was the focus for early Christianity.

[undotwa]

Originally posted by cpt kangarooski:
So don't bitch. Christians are not being persecuted -- they've been the ones doing the persecution since the time of Constantine. [/B]

Constantine? More like Justinian. Constantine, in the Edict of Milan guarenteed religious freedom (313). Constantine was in no position to do be persecuting, considering that the majority of Roman citizens at the time were Pagans. There were as many Christians as Jews.

Justinian on the other hand, ruled a mainly Christian domain, thus had power to destroy the Plato Academy of Athens and instituted that ecclessia vixit in Romana lege and persecuted the remaining pagans. This was 200 years later than Constantine.

Christians didn't enjoy a free ride under or after Constantine. Christians, although wouldn't be persecuted under realms under great control of Constantine, were actively persecuted in areas controlled by Licinius. Aswell, when Constantine died, persecution continued for a few years under Julian the Apostate. There was great resistance to Christianity (not to say such a thing was 'imposed' at this time which would be impossible considering the opposition) amongst the aristocracy, countrymen (known as the 'paganus') and Athenians.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by undotwa:
None of the authors of the Gospels were around at the time of the birth of Jesus Christ. The tales were most likely stories they heard from secondary sources. Not much attention is given to the Birth of Jesus because it was deemed not important, nor was his childhood. The Passion of Christ was the focus for early Christianity.

You're very knowledgeable about this stuff undotwa, more than me. But I disagree that Jesus' birth wasn't important, or else the writers of Matthew and Luke wouldn't have gone to the trouble of talking about the virgin birth, the annunciation, and all that. IMO, it's pretty clear that they were trying to fit his birth into what they saw as the scriptural prophecy of a messiah born to a virgin in the city of David. Hence the explanations of how he got between Nazareth and Bethlehem, and the references to the virgin birth.

But why was there a shift so that now Christmas is pretty important when it wasn't before, especially to Catholics, who seem to put more emphasis on Mary than Protestants. I know that Easter is still a more important holiday from a religious perspective, but still you're suggesting that Christmas has become more important than it was originally.

On a side note, I think it's odd that the Apostle's creed, which is arguably the basic belief of every Christian, seems to just skip right over Jesus's life:

Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
____born of the Virgin Mary,
____suffered under Pontius Pilate,
____was crucified, died, and was buried.

He was born and then killed. But what did he say and do while alive? I'd think that would be pretty important, but it doesn't seem to be.

[undotwa]

Originally posted by BRussell:
You're very knowledgeable about this stuff undotwa, more than me. But I disagree that Jesus' birth wasn't important, or else the writers of Matthew and Luke wouldn't have gone to the trouble of talking about the virgin birth, the annunciation, and all that.

(BTW My knowledge of this is pretty rudimentary)

Not that it isn't important, but in comparison to Easter, the importance of Christmas is not even on the same scale. In no way do I deny the importance of the reverence of the early Christians to Virgin Mary, but such things are not exactly comparable to the Passion of Jesus Christ and His Ressurection. The veneration of the Virgin Mary not only stems from the Angel Gabriel declaring 'Hail Mary, full of grace', but when Jesus Christ, dying on the cross pronounced 'Behold your Mother!'.

IMO, it's pretty clear that they were trying to fit his birth into what they saw as the scriptural prophecy of a messiah born to a virgin in the city of David. Hence the explanations of how he got between Nazareth and Bethlehem, and the references to the virgin birth.

I don't dispute that. In fact, Jesus spends his entire life using quotations from the Old Testament to justify himself. Very few of Jesus' teachings were actually new, rather he simply quoted the Torah.

But why was there a shift so that now Christmas is pretty important when it wasn't before, especially to Catholics, who seem to put more emphasis on Mary than Protestants. I know that Easter is still a more important holiday from a religious perspective, but still you're suggesting that Christmas has become more important than it was originally.

On a side note, I think it's odd that the Apostle's creed, which is arguably the basic belief of every Christian, seems to just skip right over Jesus's life:

He was born and then killed. But what did he say and do while alive? I'd think that would be pretty important, but it doesn't seem to be.

Christmas is an important feast day in the Catholic liturgical year, but in the strictest sense Christmas is no where near as important as Easter. The celebration of Easter, the Lord's Supper were by far the most important things in early Christianity. Easter was the new covenent, replacing the passover. Jesus was sent as a Saviour, his miracles and good works were there for example, but he was sent on Earth primarily to die for us and our sins, past, present and future and rise from the dead. The life of Jesus Christ was important, but Easter outweighs the importance of the rest of Jesus' life.

Although I realise you know all this stuff, I think it is important for people to understand that the primary purpose of Jesus Christ coming to Earth was not to perform miracles, send a message of love (all of this was technically part of Jewish law anyway), rather to die for us and rise from the dead and to institute a new set of sacraments and a Church for our salvation. Protestantism has distanced itself from this emphasis, which still prevails in the Catholic and Orthodox churches.

[DeathToWindows]

Originally posted by dcolton:

The point is simple. It is okay for other religions to have a holiday recognized by the school system and the governemnt...but god forbid a Chiristian holiday is called by name. You get yom kippur off...GREAT! Christians get a spring break. You het Rosh Hashana off. GREAT! Christians get a winter break. If the gov't were to dare call any of these christian holdiays by name, the anti-God zealots would have a field day.

Get a life. I hear winter break called "Christmas Break" and I hear April vacation called "Easter vacation" - happy?

[dcolton]

Originally posted by DeathToWindows:
Get a life. I hear winter break called "Christmas Break" and I hear April vacation called "Easter vacation" - happy?

I'd dumb down the conversation so you could get a clue...but that would be too much work and I would rather spend the time 'getting a life'. Perhaps you should follow your own advice.

[cpt kangarooski]

undotwa--

Constantine? More like Justinian. Constantine, in the Edict of Milan guarenteed religious freedom (313). Constantine was in no position to do be persecuting, considering that the majority of Roman citizens at the time were Pagans. There were as many Christians as Jews.

Justinian on the other hand, ruled a mainly Christian domain, thus had power to destroy the Plato Academy of Athens and instituted that ecclessia vixit in Romana lege and persecuted the remaining pagans. This was 200 years later than Constantine.

Christians didn't enjoy a free ride under or after Constantine. Christians, although wouldn't be persecuted under realms under great control of Constantine, were actively persecuted in areas controlled by Licinius. Aswell, when Constantine died, persecution continued for a few years under Julian the Apostate. There was great resistance to Christianity (not to say such a thing was 'imposed' at this time which would be impossible considering the opposition) amongst the aristocracy, countrymen (known as the 'paganus') and Athenians.

I'll concede the timing (though I'd been thinking of Constantine's conversion) but I think the overall point remains; Christians in western civilization have been doing a lot more persecuting of everyone than they have been persecuted by non-Christians.

dcolton--

The point is simple. It is okay for other religions to have a holiday recognized by the school system and the governemnt...but god forbid a Chiristian holiday is called by name. You get yom kippur off...GREAT! Christians get a spring break. You het Rosh Hashana off. GREAT! Christians get a winter break. If the gov't were to dare call any of these christian holdiays by name, the anti-God zealots would have a field day

Anti-God zealots would be up in arms about the government recognizing Jewish holidays as well, since they're against God, not just any one specific religion.

Me, I say it's not okay for the government to recognize any religions; if someone wants a day off for any reason, so long as it won't overall interfere with their schooling, and isn't just playing hooky, then I say give it to them. This is NOT persecution of religion; believers get time off just like people going to the doctor's. This is NOT persecution of Christianity; for Christians to be treated equally with everyone else is in fact the fairest possible treatment for all.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by undotwa:
(BTW My knowledge of this is pretty rudimentary)

Not that it isn't important, but in comparison to Easter, the importance of Christmas is not even on the same scale. In no way do I deny the importance of the reverence of the early Christians to Virgin Mary, but such things are not exactly comparable to the Passion of Jesus Christ and His Ressurection. The veneration of the Virgin Mary not only stems from the Angel Gabriel declaring 'Hail Mary, full of grace', but when Jesus Christ, dying on the cross pronounced 'Behold your Mother!'.

Sure, but I thought you had suggested that Christmas became more important over time. I was wondering why you think that might be the case.

I don't dispute that. In fact, Jesus spends his entire life using quotations from the Old Testament to justify himself. Very few of Jesus' teachings were actually new, rather he simply quoted the Torah.

I agree that many things mirrored old testament prophecies, but I wonder if those things were really true or if they were added in later by gospel-writers to make him appear to have fulfilled prophecies. Maybe, as you say, he was using scripture to justify himself; but for some reason I doubt that. I'm not sure why right now - maybe because I personally doubt he presented himself as a prophesied messiah, but I can't back that up.

And he did have some interesting new stuff to say, though, which of course must have been what made him stand out to his people in the first place. He contradicted many of the basic rules of his religion. His parables and aphorisms were real mind-benders - he often would say exactly the opposite of what would be expected. I don't pretend to have full knowledge of him by any stretch, but it seems like a lot of what he said was pretty radical, even for today.

Although I realise you know all this stuff, I think it is important for people to understand that the primary purpose of Jesus Christ coming to Earth was not to perform miracles, send a message of love (all of this was technically part of Jewish law anyway), rather to die for us and rise from the dead and to institute a new set of sacraments and a Church for our salvation. Protestantism has distanced itself from this emphasis, which still prevails in the Catholic and Orthodox churches.

Right, I agree. There's an emphasis on his divinity rather than humanity, and on his death rather than his life. And if you're interested in Jesus but not in the spiritual/supernatural, that makes him that much less accessible.

[undotwa]

Originally posted by BRussell:
[B]Sure, but I thought you had suggested that Christmas became more important over time. I was wondering why you think that might be the case.
I agree that many things mirrored old testament prophecies, but I wonder if those things were really true or if they were added in later by gospel-writers to make him appear to have fulfilled prophecies. Maybe, as you say, he was using scripture to justify himself; but for some reason I doubt that. I'm not sure why right now - maybe because I personally doubt he presented himself as a prophesied messiah, but I can't back that up.

I did suggest that Christmas has become more important over the time (Like I said I don't think it was celebrated originally and was a pagan holiday turned Christian).

I'm not sure on the reasoning though. I think Charles Dickens had a great role in shaping Christmas in the 19th century, and bringing the spiritual importance of the holiday to new heights.

And he did have some interesting new stuff to say, though, which of course must have been what made him stand out to his people in the first place. He contradicted many of the basic rules of his religion. His parables and aphorisms were real mind-benders - he often would say exactly the opposite of what would be expected. I don't pretend to have full knowledge of him by any stretch, but it seems like a lot of what he said was pretty radical, even for today.

It was less 'new' stuff, rather his moral teachings were quoted from Jewish law, and Jesus made some really good parables to explain them. The general trend was that Judaism had become too preocupied with the ritualistic aspects of their religion, that such rituals had lost meaning. This is not to say rituals were not important, but Jesus' primary moral message (I'm alonely talking about moral teaching, not about his death and ressurection) is that rituals are no more important than living a good virtuous life, but both are co-dependant upon each other and are supplementary for salvation.

For Jesus to actually contradict anything in Jewish law would mean that Jesus is not the Messiah. God doesn't change his mind on morals, as morals are absolute. To view the Old Testament God as angry and the new testament god as loving is wrong aswell. The writing style reflects the authors of the scripture and are written to be presented to the audience of the time.