[Zimphire]

Before a gathering of journalists in Washington, DC today, John Kerry criticized President Bush for his actions on 9-11-01 following the attack on the World Trade Center. Kerry blasted Bush for not acting swiftly, and instead choosing to sit with children in a Florida classroom.

"Had I been reading to children and had my top aide whispered in my ear, 'America is under attack,' I would have told those kids very politely and nicely that the president of the United States had something that he needed to attend to -- and I would have attended to it."

First, it's telling that Kerry is using Michael Moore's propaganda as a playbook in his campaign. This has a definite whiff of desperation about it.

Secondly, where exactly was John Kerry that morning when America was under attack, and what was he doing?

In an interview with Larry King on CNN, July 8, 2004, Sen. Kerry was asked where he was the morning of September 11th. Here is part of his response:

Kerry: "...And as I came in [to a meeting in Sen. Daschle's office], Barbara Boxer and Harry Reid were standing there, and we watched the second plane come in to the building. And we shortly thereafter sat down at the table and then we just realized nobody could think, and then boom, right behind us, we saw the cloud of explosion at the Pentagon..." (emphasis added).

It should be noted that the second plane hit the World Trade Center at 9:03 a.m., and the plane hit the Pentagon at 9:43 a.m. By Kerry's own words, he and his fellow senators sat there for forty minutes, realizing "nobody could think."

In other words: Sen. Kerry, who criticized President Bush for not rushing out of the Florida classroom for seven minutes, sat paralyzed with his colleagues for a full forty minutes. He is hardly in a position to criticize President Bush for "inaction."

[PacHead]

That's pretty pathetic of Kerry. Taking a cheap scene from a lousy movie and using that same flawed argument inorder to bash his opponent.

What's even funnier, is that he himself sat somewhere for 40 minutes, not even able to think. I suppose we could then say that Bush reacted about 6 times faster than Kerry did.

[Stradlater]

There's a difference in the responsibilities that a president and a senator have and the courses of action that they are expected to take.

[PacHead]

Originally posted by Stradlater:
There's a difference in the responsibilities and courses of action that a president and a senator have and are expected to take.

So what ? If I were prez and I had just heard that unreal, out of this world news, I'd sit for a few minutes while I pondered the next logical step.

Is the prez a fireman or something, that slides down poles when the alarm goes off ?

[BRussell]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Before a gathering of journalists in Washington, DC today, John Kerry criticized President Bush for his actions on 9-11-01 following the attack on the World Trade Center. Kerry blasted Bush for not acting swiftly, and instead choosing to sit with children in a Florida classroom.

"Had I been reading to children and had my top aide whispered in my ear, 'America is under attack,' I would have told those kids very politely and nicely that the president of the United States had something that he needed to attend to -- and I would have attended to it."

First, it's telling that Kerry is using Michael Moore's propaganda as a playbook in his campaign. This has a definite whiff of desperation about it.

Secondly, where exactly was John Kerry that morning when America was under attack, and what was he doing?

In an interview with Larry King on CNN, July 8, 2004, Sen. Kerry was asked where he was the morning of September 11th. Here is part of his response:

Kerry: "...And as I came in [to a meeting in Sen. Daschle's office], Barbara Boxer and Harry Reid were standing there, and we watched the second plane come in to the building. And we shortly thereafter sat down at the table and then we just realized nobody could think, and then boom, right behind us, we saw the cloud of explosion at the Pentagon..." (emphasis added).

It should be noted that the second plane hit the World Trade Center at 9:03 a.m., and the plane hit the Pentagon at 9:43 a.m. By Kerry's own words, he and his fellow senators sat there for forty minutes, realizing "nobody could think."

In other words: Sen. Kerry, who criticized President Bush for not rushing out of the Florida classroom for seven minutes, sat paralyzed with his colleagues for a full forty minutes. He is hardly in a position to criticize President Bush for "inaction."

I don't think the first plane was shown live, so it wasn't necessarily 40 minutes. In any case, Kerry isn't the executive, so he couldn't have done anything. What's he supposed to do, immediately sit down and write some legislation against the terrorists to stop them?

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by PacHead:
So what ? If I were prez and I had just heard that unreal, out of this world news, I'd sit for a few minutes...

Bush sat for longer than "a few minutes".

The least Bush could have done was excuse himself from the children and consult with members of his office. At least Kerry, a not-nearly-as-powerful senator at the time, was in a meeting with his peers.

[doctorkeyser]

Originally posted by BRussell:
I don't think the first plane was shown live, so it wasn't necessarily 40 minutes. In any case, Kerry isn't the executive, so he couldn't have done anything. What's he supposed to do, immediately sit down and write some legislation against the terrorists to stop them?

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by BRussell:
I don't think the first plane was shown live, so it wasn't necessarily 40 minutes. In any case, Kerry isn't the executive, so he couldn't have done anything. What's he supposed to do, immediately sit down and write some legislation against the terrorists to stop them?

Exactly.

[Timo]

Originally posted by BRussell:
I don't think the first plane was shown live, so it wasn't necessarily 40 minutes. In any case, Kerry isn't the executive, so he couldn't have done anything. What's he supposed to do, immediately sit down and write some legislation against the terrorists to stop them?

Well?

[Randman]

Considering Bush was in front of very young children and the media was present, I think he handled himself admirably at the moment and showed enough restraint. To suddenly bolt in front of the children would have sent the wrong message, imo, and it could have panicked people even more.
If I remember right, he was told after the first plane hit. Can someone verify that for me?


Also, if Kerry is saying nobody could think at the moment, I would assume that could also be extended to anyone, even the commander-in-chief.

I've been on the sidelines, for the most part, but I think he's scraping the barrel on this one.

[Logic]

Originally posted by BRussell:
I don't think the first plane was shown live, so it wasn't necessarily 40 minutes. In any case, Kerry isn't the executive, so he couldn't have done anything. What's he supposed to do, immediately sit down and write some legislation against the terrorists to stop them?

Post of the day!

[Randman]

And what was Bush supposed to do? Leave (Florida?) and put himself in a jet (like the prez in ID4) and start scanning the skies for bogeys to shoot down?

[BRussell]

Oops after seeing a quote of my post I just realized I meant "second plane" not first. But I don't believe the second plane was shown live either, though I may be wrong about that.

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by Randman:
And what was Bush supposed to do? Leave (Florida?) and put himself in a jet (like the prez in ID4) and start scanning the skies for bogeys to shoot down?

You're saying sitting there in front of children, dumbfounded--instead of discussing things, via satellite phone or with peers that were present--was what he was supposed to do?

Idleness is one of the worst things he could have partaken in at that moment.
But I guess the absolute worst would have been to freak out.

[PacHead]

Originally posted by BRussell:
I don't think the first plane was shown live, so it wasn't necessarily 40 minutes. In any case, Kerry isn't the executive, so he couldn't have done anything. What's he supposed to do, immediately sit down and write some legislation against the terrorists to stop them?

You obviously misread, or misunderstood. The 40 minutes is the timeline from plane 2 >>>>>> pentagon. If he we're watching the news after the reports of the first plane, it would be much more than 40 minutes.

it should be noted that the second plane hit the World Trade Center at 9:03 a.m., and the plane hit the Pentagon at 9:43 a.m. By Kerry's own words, he and his fellow senators sat there for forty minutes, realizing "nobody could think."

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by BRussell:
Oops after seeing a quote of my post I just realized I meant "second plane" not first. But I don't believe the second plane was shown live either, though I may be wrong about that.

Actually, I think the second plane was pretty much a live announcement...

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by PacHead:
...By Kerry's own words, he and his fellow senators sat there for forty minutes, realizing "nobody could think."

Regardless: you expect a senator to take more immediate action than the president? He did (by attending a meeting in hopes of sorting things out).

[MindFad]

Originally posted by BRussell:
I don't think the first plane was shown live, so it wasn't necessarily 40 minutes. In any case, Kerry isn't the executive, so he couldn't have done anything. What's he supposed to do, immediately sit down and write some legislation against the terrorists to stop them?

Notice how I utilize two thumbsup icons to show that I think BRussell is right. Doubly right. Right++. Right Extreme, if you will.

Man, is that all you got, Zim? Pfft.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by PacHead:
You obviously misread, or misunderstood. The 40 minutes is the timeline from plane 2 >>>>>> pentagon. If he we're watching the news after the reports of the first plane, it would be much more than 40 minutes.

it should be noted that the second plane hit the World Trade Center at 9:03 a.m., and the plane hit the Pentagon at 9:43 a.m. By Kerry's own words, he and his fellow senators sat there for forty minutes, realizing "nobody could think."

Right, but it still doesn't necessarily mean he sat there for 40 minutes. He could have watched a tape of the second plane, and then talked to the other senators for two minutes, and then the Pentagon got hit. Zimphire (or whoever he's quoting) is suggesting that he logically must have been sitting there for 40 minutes, when that's not true.

[Stradlater]

I nominate Zimphire for thread loser.

[PacHead]

Originally posted by MindFad:


Notice how I utilize two thumbsup icons to show that I think BRussell is right. Doubly right. Right++. Right Extreme, if you will.

Man, is that all you got, Zim? Pfft.

You are giving two thumbs up to a flawed post, because as I already stated in the post 3 above yours, the 40 minutes is the timeline from plane 2 until the pentagon. BRussel already admitted he was mistaken, since he confused this with plane 1, so your thumbs up are wrong, and they should be pointing down.

[Stradlater]

PacHead: The "flawed post" was corrected; the thread-starter's flawed logic was not.

[Logic]

Question:

Would Bush have sat there for 7 minutes if his family were in the second tower?

[PacHead]

Originally posted by BRussell:
Right, but it still doesn't necessarily mean he sat there for 40 minutes. He could have watched a tape of the second plane, and then talked to the other senators for two minutes, and then the Pentagon got hit. Zimphire (or whoever he's quoting) is suggesting that he logically must have been sitting there for 40 minutes, when that's not true.

You are correct in that we don't know exactly how long he was sitting there for. We do know that for whatever length of time, they were unable to even think.

Based on this, I doubt Kerry would have done anything different had he been prez. Criticize Bush all you want for legitimate stuff, but this one seems pretty weak in my opinion.

[doctorkeyser]

"America is under attack, Mr. President."

[davesimondotcom]

I'm curious what it matters - the President sat for a few minutes, didn't panic, and I believe handled himself well to not panic the children.

But how long did it take the rest of us to absorb the information? I mean, I watched the second plane live on TV and just sat there with my mouth open thinking about what it all meant. Bush didn't even had a TV in front of him, so he was relying on things being whispered in his ear.

To me, from a strategy standpoint, I hope Kerry keeps this up. The more he reminds people about 9/11 the stronger Bush gets. The irony, of course, is that if a Bush ad even shows a half second of a fireman, he's slammed for "using 9/11 for political gain."

[dcolton]

Originally posted by Logic:
Question:

Would Bush have sat there for 7 minutes if his family were in the second tower?

WTF? WTF? WTF?

What is your point? Bush isn't the evil one here buddy...it is Usama and the killer muslims who support him.

[dialo]

We don't know whether kerry saw it live or was watching a replay, so we don't know if it was 40 minutes. Anyway, as BRussell said:

Originally posted by BRussell
In any case, Kerry isn't the executive, so he couldn't have done anything. What's he supposed to do, immediately sit down and write some legislation against the terrorists to stop them?

[djohnson]

Did ya'll want Bush to drop what he was doing, say "A plane hit the WTC!!!" and run out screaming? I much prefer he calmly handled the situation and then left to take care of business.

[doctorkeyser]

Originally posted by dcolton:
WTF? WTF? WTF?

What is your point? Bush isn't the evil one here buddy...it is Usama and the killer muslims who support him.

Evil? Of course not.

Indecisive. Unsure. Scared. Just what we would hope for from our Commander in Chief.

[Logic]

Originally posted by dcolton:
WTF? WTF? WTF?

What is your point? Bush isn't the evil one here buddy...it is Usama and the killer muslims who support him.

My point was to ask if you guys think that Bush would have stayed there for 7 minutes if he knew his family was in the second tower.

[dcolton]

Originally posted by Logic:
My point was to ask if you guys think that Bush would have stayed there for 7 minutes if he knew his family was in the second tower.

But what is your point? What is your argument?

[Logic]

Originally posted by djohnson:
Did ya'll want Bush to drop what he was doing, say "A plane hit the WTC!!!" and run out screaming? I much prefer he calmly handled the situation and then left to take care of business.

Or just say:

"I'm sorry kids but something has happened that requires my immediate attention. But I promise I'll be back sometime later."

Then ask one of his assistants to tell the teacher what has happened and immediately get going to take care of the situation. Was it 40 minutes between WTC II and Pentagon? Of those 40 minutes your president sat there and couldn't take any action to stop the plane heading for Pentagon.

[Logic]

Originally posted by dcolton:
But what is your point? What is your argument?

Why won't you just answer the question and then I'll tell you my argument. Or does my argumentation change your answer? So that Bush looks good no matter what I say?

[dcolton]

Originally posted by Logic:
Or just say:

"I'm sorry kids but something has happened that requires my immediate attention. But I promise I'll be back sometime later."

Then ask one of his assistants to tell the teacher what has happened and immediately get going to take care of the situation. Was it 40 minutes between WTC II and Pentagon? Of those 40 minutes your president sat there and couldn't take any action to stop the plane heading for Pentagon.

So you think Bush could have done something? You think Bush knew it was a terror attack when the 1st plane flew into the WTC? Hell, I thought it was a Cessna.

You kill me...you will defend a terrorists to the bitter end...but you will villify Bush for your perception of inaction? It was a suprise attack...the terrorists relied on confusion to get their job done.

**** it. It is useless debating with you and the rest of the Bush haters. Blame bush for all the evils. When he is reelected, hopefully he will start a campaign to rid the world of killer muslims. And if a few peaceful muslims die in the cross fire...who cares...cause if one slips through the radar - we all know fanatics will point their stinky little fingers at Bush

[dcolton]

Originally posted by Logic:
Why won't you just answer the question and then I'll tell you my argument. Or does my argumentation change your answer? So that Bush looks good no matter what I say?

No, it is a pointless question. You know, all you do is harden my opinion with your sophomoric arguments.

[MindFad]

Your brain is flawed, son.

Originally posted by PacHead:
You are giving two thumbs up to a flawed post, because as I already stated in the post 3 above yours, the 40 minutes is the timeline from plane 2 until the pentagon. BRussel already admitted he was mistaken, since he confused this with plane 1, so your thumbs up are wrong, and they should be pointing down.

Originally posted by Stradlater:
PacHead: The "flawed post" was corrected; the thread-starter's flawed logic was not.

[Logic]

Originally posted by dcolton:
So you think Bush could have done something? You think Bush knew it was a terror attack when the 1st plane flew into the WTC? Hell, I thought it was a Cessna.

IIRC he was notified of the second plane when he was reading about a goat.

You kill me...you will defend a terrorists to the bitter end...but you will villify Bush for your perception of inaction? It was a suprise attack...the terrorists relied on confusion to get their job done.

Where have I defended any of the attacks that happened on 9/11? Please show me that.

[Logic]

Originally posted by dcolton:
No, it is a pointless question. You know, all you do is harden my opinion with your sophomoric arguments.

Why is it pointless?

[PacHead]

Originally posted by MindFad:
Your brain is flawed, son.

The very post you quoted was wrong, thus making your thumbs up "I didn't even bother to read it before I agree, or I read it and I also misunderstood" post wrong.

Instead of just admitting you were wrong, you choose the dishonest route.

[vmpaul]

Well, the Pol Lounge certainly has cornered the market on useless threads/debates lately...

Not sure if it's relevant but, until I saw F9/11 I wasn't aware that Bush had been informed of the first plane hitting WTC on route to the school. What was on camera was him being told about the 2nd plane hitting. Was this widely known? I never heard about it before.

Let the silliness continue....

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by BRussell:
Oops after seeing a quote of my post I just realized I meant "second plane" not first. But I don't believe the second plane was shown live either, though I may be wrong about that.

I think the second plane was shown live.

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by Logic:
Why is it pointless?

Because he knows he'll be wrong

[MindFad]

Originally posted by dcolton:
So you think Bush could have done something? You think Bush knew it was a terror attack when the 1st plane flew into the WTC? Hell, I thought it was a Cessna.

Considering the prior PDB that Osama was determined to attack in the US using jetliners, you'd think the guy might be able to put two and two together, don't ya think? Obviously he didn't. Even though he knew the first plane had hit before he even entered the classroom.

At this point I would like to think my President wouldn't have even entered the classroom to begin with and find out exactly what's going on in New York with the WTC, a previous target of terrorism. But no.

OK, OK. "The nation is under attack, Mr. President." OK, now he'll do something, right? Get in touch with the FAA? NORAD? Maybe give orders to shoot down these planes? Something? Maybe even call Nanny Dick and ask what to do if you have to—just something? No. He ends up sitting in a classroom for seven minutes—spending a full thirty minutes at the school while the nation is under attack.

I really think something could've—should've—been done differently. Shoulda coulda woulda. I find it laughable to call this man a leader.

[MindFad]

Originally posted by PacHead:
The very post you quoted was wrong, thus making your thumbs up "I didn't even bother to read it before I agree, or I read it and I also misunderstood" post wrong.

Instead of just admitting you were wrong, you choose the dishonest route.

I submit that you are a dumbass and that my thumbsup can beat up your thumbsup. Where's 'Hooder with his middle school graphic?

[Logic]

Originally posted by MindFad:
Considering the prior PDB that Osama was determined to attack in the US using jetliners, you'd think the guy might be able to put two and two together, don't ya think? Obviously he didn't. Even though he knew the first plane had hit before he even entered the classroom.

At this point I would like to think my President wouldn't have even entered the classroom to begin with and find out exactly what's going on in New York with the WTC, a previous target of terrorism. But no.

OK, OK. "The nation is under attack, Mr. President." OK, now he'll do something, right? Get in touch with the FAA? NORAD? Maybe give orders to shoot down these planes? Something? Maybe even call Nanny Dick and ask what to do if you have to—just something? No. He ends up sitting in a classroom for seven minutes—spending a full thirty minutes at the school while the nation is under attack.

I really think something could've—should've—been done differently. Shoulda coulda woulda. I find it laughable to call this man a leader.

[PacHead]

Originally posted by MindFad:
I submit that you are a dumbass and that my thumbsup can beat up your thumbsup. Where's 'Hooder with his middle school graphic?

Strike 2

[dcolton]

Originally posted by MindFad:
Considering the prior PDB that Osama was determined to attack in the US using jetliners, you'd think the guy might be able to put two and two together, don't ya think? Obviously he didn't. Even though he knew the first plane had hit before he even entered the classroom.

At this point I would like to think my President wouldn't have even entered the classroom to begin with and find out exactly what's going on in New York with the WTC, a previous target of terrorism. But no.

OK, OK. "The nation is under attack, Mr. President." OK, now he'll do something, right? Get in touch with the FAA? NORAD? Maybe give orders to shoot down these planes? Something? Maybe even call Nanny Dick and ask what to do if you have to—just something? No. He ends up sitting in a classroom for seven minutes—spending a full thirty minutes at the school while the nation is under attack.

I really think something could've—should've—been done differently. Shoulda coulda woulda. I find it laughable to call this man a leader.

So here is my question that I think I know the gneral answer to but may be wrong. How many people would have the authority to scramble fighter planes and order them to blow up a passenger airline.

[MindFad]

Originally posted by dcolton:
So here is my question that I think I know the gneral answer to but may be wrong. How many people would have the authority to scramble fighter planes and order them to blow up a passenger airline.

My understanding was that the President had to give these orders. But apparently the Vice President can as well, because Cheney authorized planes to be shot down later that day—but this was after the planes had all crashed.

Planes were scrambled—hell, aren't they supposed to be scrambled the second a transponder goes out?—but they didn't know where to go. This is where the confusion between the FAA and NORAD come in to play. I'm not clear on everything in the timeline of that day, but obviously there was something wrong when it came to intelligence and communication.

Originally posted by PacHead:
Strike 2

No, you.

[Logic]

Originally posted by dcolton:
So here is my question that I think I know the gneral answer to but may be wrong. How many people would have the authority to scramble fighter planes and order them to blow up a passenger airline.

Only one person if I recall correctly. The one who sat for 7 minutes doing nothing.