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FOX News attacks Disney for insufficient homophobia! (Page 3)
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Aug 8, 2004, 02:30 PM
 
Originally posted by PacHead:
In regards to animals and what they do in nature, some eat their own kind also.
Whatever works works.
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Aug 8, 2004, 02:43 PM
 
Originally posted by angaq0k:
stay on topic; were not talking about people putting hooks in their skin.

I was giving an example. Just because something HAPPENS in nature, doesn't make it natural.

I think he meant that humans aren't the only animals upon this earth that recreate in homosexual activities.

Yes, and dogs hump pillows and legs. I guess it's natural for people to do that in public as well. When people use animals as an excuse for their actions, they have already lost.

Oh, and "consonant to the methods of nature" is one definition of "natural."

That isn't the definition people use when saying homosexuality isn't "natural"

It is "Conforming to the usual or ordinary course of nature"

And homosexuality does not conform to the USUAL and ORDINARY course of nature.
     
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Aug 8, 2004, 02:49 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
That isn't the definition people use when saying homosexuality isn't "natural"

It is "Conforming to the usual or ordinary course of nature"

And homosexuality does not conform to the USUAL and ORDINARY course of nature. [/B]
Question: Does modern medicine conform to the usual and ordinary course of nature? If nature took its course, all cancer patients would die, no one would get a polio vaccination... etc.

The same could be said for a lot of "unnatural" things we do. Computer gaming, space travel -- we were designed for neither.

Since when did something being "unnatural" make it bad?
     
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Aug 8, 2004, 02:54 PM
 
Originally posted by strictlyplaid:
Question: Does modern medicine conform to the usual and ordinary course of nature? If nature took its course, all cancer patients would die, no one would get a polio vaccination... etc.

The same could be said for a lot of "unnatural" things we do. Computer gaming, space travel -- we were designed for neither.

Since when did something being "unnatural" make it bad?
Not the same. The above is helping mankind. Homosexual sex does not.
     
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Aug 8, 2004, 02:55 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
Not the same. The above is helping mankind. Homosexual sex does not.
It's not hurting, either... unless you can show otherwise. And how does computer gaming help mankind?

But at least we have established that it's not about whether something is unnatural, but whether it helps or hurts people.
     
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Aug 8, 2004, 02:56 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
I was giving an example. Just because something HAPPENS in nature, doesn't make it natural.
Piercings happen in human communities/society...where do they happen in nature?
Originally posted by Zimphire:
Yes, and dogs hump pillows and legs. I guess it's natural for people to do that in public as well. When people use animals as an excuse for their actions, they have already lost.
Private and public mean little to other animals; they are boundaries that humans set up and categorize certain things as ideally private or ideally public. Taboos develop, religions create guidelines--some guided, some misguided--and you have yourself a society.
Originally posted by Zimphire:
That isn't the definition people use when saying homosexuality isn't "natural"

It is "Conforming to the usual or ordinary course of nature"

And homosexuality does not conform to the USUAL and ORDINARY course of nature.
Who's to say, really? Let's try to avoid any more semantic arguments, your defense is weak if it relies on a single definition of a word.
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Aug 8, 2004, 02:57 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
Not the same. The above is helping mankind. Homosexual sex does not.
To expand upon the earlier "it's not hurting mankind, either": how does homosexual sex not help mankind? It gives people of primarily homosexual orientation much more happiness in life.
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Aug 8, 2004, 03:06 PM
 
Originally posted by strictlyplaid:

But at least we have established that it's not about whether something is unnatural, but whether it helps or hurts people.
I was juts responding to the people that claim homosexuality is normal and natural just because it takes place.

That was rubbish.
     
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Aug 8, 2004, 03:08 PM
 
Originally posted by Stradlater:
To expand upon the earlier "it's not hurting mankind, either": how does homosexual sex not help mankind? It gives people of primarily homosexual orientation much more happiness in life.
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/narth/spitzer3.html

"Others said, "Don't Affirm Me into a Lifestyle that was Killing Me Physically and Spiritually," and "The APA Has Betrayed America with Politically Correct Science.

"Most had sought change because a gay lifestyle had been emotionally unsatisfying. Many had been disturbed by promiscuity, stormy relationships, a conflict with their religious values, and the desire to be (or to stay) heterosexually married."
     
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Aug 8, 2004, 03:11 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
I was juts responding to the people that claim homosexuality is normal and natural just because it takes place.

That was rubbish.
Animals clean themselves and groom themselves and try to appear attractive to mates. Scars are also normal and natural, semi-permanent parts of existence. Humans evolved--with the advent of tools and clothing--grooming, cleaning and appearing attractive to include jewelry and piercings. Various methods of tattooing as markings of feats accomplished, inside and outside of war, independently arose in multiple indigenous societies. Tattoos, after generations, became attractive as well.

Things that may not be natural and normal to you, are natural and normal evolutions in other societies.
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Aug 8, 2004, 03:15 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/narth/spitzer3.html

"Others said, "Don't Affirm Me into a Lifestyle that was Killing Me Physically and Spiritually," and "The APA Has Betrayed America with Politically Correct Science.

"Most had sought change because a gay lifestyle had been emotionally unsatisfying. Many had been disturbed by promiscuity, stormy relationships, a conflict with their religious values, and the desire to be (or to stay) heterosexually married."
All you're showing here is that religion can hurt people and society, physically and spiritually, because it does not allow its followers to accept their fellow beings if they exhibit certain harmless traits.

Unfortunately, society, by way of religious values, has labeled homosexuality as something to be looked down upon, thus causing unhappiness in many homosexuals just because they are not accepted. If everyone accepted homosexuals, those that are unhappy would be, instead, happy and free of the guilt that is so often superimposed upon them.
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Aug 8, 2004, 03:39 PM
 
Originally posted by Stradlater:
Animals clean themselves and groom themselves and try to appear attractive to mates. Scars are also normal and natural, semi-permanent parts of existence. Humans evolved--with the advent of tools and clothing--grooming, cleaning and appearing attractive to include jewelry and piercings. Various methods of tattooing as markings of feats accomplished, inside and outside of war, independently arose in multiple indigenous societies. Tattoos, after generations, became attractive as well.

Things that may not be natural and normal to you, are natural and normal evolutions in other societies.
What a spin. Again. Homosexuality does not conform to the usual or ordinary course of nature. No ifs, ands or buts about it.
     
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Aug 8, 2004, 03:41 PM
 
Originally posted by Stradlater:
All you're showing here is that religion can hurt people and society, physically and spiritually, because it does not allow its followers to accept their fellow beings if they exhibit certain harmless traits.

Whaa? Not all of these people are religious. And if it HURTS them, why are They HAPPIER!?

They feel life is better. They are content. Something homosexuality wasn't giving them. That is why they are no longer homosexuals.

Unfortunately, society, by way of religious values, has labeled homosexuality as something to be looked down upon, thus causing unhappiness in many homosexuals just because they are not accepted. If everyone accepted homosexuals, those that are unhappy would be, instead, happy and free of the guilt that is so often superimposed upon them.
Or it could be their own conscience telling them. They don't need society too. We have our own "right and wrong" meter in our conscience. Some choose to ignore it.

I fully believe if you ignore it long enough, it ceases to exist. That is why you have people saying "there is no right or wrong"

They have ignored their conscience for so long, they don't know the difference.
     
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Aug 8, 2004, 03:42 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
Again. Homosexuality does not conform to the usual or ordinary course of nature. No ifs, ands or buts about it.
Again. Says who?
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Aug 8, 2004, 03:44 PM
 
Originally posted by Stradlater:
Again. Says who?
Homosexuality isn't the usual or ordinary course of nature. Heterosexuality is. Homosexuality occurs at MOST in 4% of the population.(Like many mental disorders) Therefore it's not the usual or ordinary course of nature.
     
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Aug 8, 2004, 03:49 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:

Whaa? Not all of these people are religious. And if it HURTS them, why are They HAPPIER!?

They feel life is better. They are content. Something homosexuality wasn't giving them. That is why they are no longer homosexuals.
They may feel happier because they are no longer persecuted.

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Or it could be their own conscience telling them. They don't need society too. We have our own "right and wrong" meter in our conscience. Some choose to ignore it.
Our own "right and wrong meter" is developed by our experience and influences from society. If society wasn't hung up over homosexuality, "consciences" wouldn't be given the opportunity to feel that it was wrong.

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I fully believe if you ignore it long enough, it ceases to exist. That is why you have people saying "there is no right or wrong"

They have ignored their conscience for so long, they don't know the difference.
Again, consciences are different for different people, but are usually heavily and almost wholly influenced by the society the person lives in.
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Aug 8, 2004, 03:50 PM
 
Okay, so you're saying morality is realtive?
Can I buy pot from you?
     
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Aug 8, 2004, 03:51 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
Homosexuality isn't the usual or ordinary course of nature. Heterosexuality is. Homosexuality occurs at MOST in 4% of the population.(Like many mental disorders) Therefore it's not the usual or ordinary course of nature.
4% in our repressed society, probably (and that's still a huge figure). If homosexuality wasn't looked down upon, it would probably be more common. In feudal Japan, it was common for an older man to have a relationship with a younger man.
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Aug 8, 2004, 03:54 PM
 
Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
Okay, so you're saying morality is realtive?
Morality is relative. Ask a parentless child that lives in the slums if they think stealing is wrong when that's the only way they can survive.
Can I buy pot from you?
I don't care for the stuff, and sorry, but I have none to sell--really, though, pot is no worse than alcohol. Just because there's a law doesn't mean it's always just. Laws dictate those relative morals in relative societies, though.
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Aug 8, 2004, 03:56 PM
 
I just watched the brilliant documentary on FOX 'news' called, Outfoxed. Man it was good, I was never a fan of the conservative FUX news, but I hope some others get the chance to watch it. Mind you, FUX news really only has its fan base with American Conservatives, but I think it's good for other people to educate themselves by seeing.

The best argument against FUX news is to just watch the channel itself. So funny that people actually thikn they broadcast news.

Go watch it folks!!!

Here's what the review in IMDb says about it:

"Date: 2 August 2004
Summary: I'm no bleeding heart liberal, but I'll never watch Fox News again

This is a scathing dismantling of Fox News. It is in effect a total obliteration of any notion that the station is fair and balanced. It is a simple and systematic explanation of how Fox works and why they report what they do.

My politics are decidedly all over the place. I am neither wholly liberal nor wholly conservative, it all depends on the subject. I do regularly watch Fox because I do like some of their reporting. However after seeing this I'm left to question everything that they do on every level. Fair and unbiased indeed.

The film is light years better than the earlier "Uncovered" about the Iraq War. I would say that its a perfect position paper against Fox News except for the final ten minutes or so where the film shifts focus and asks the viewer to become active in changing how news is reported. Its a valid track to take, but it somehow takes away from the films central point of Fox's biased reporting.

9 out of 10."
     
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Aug 8, 2004, 04:09 PM
 
**** these people and their agenda of pushing unnatural behavior


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Aug 8, 2004, 04:14 PM
 
Originally posted by forkies:
**** these people and their agenda of pushing unnatural behavior
BURN THEM! STRING 'EM UP!

Ok right-wing maniacs, get your white masks on and proceed to the 'carry the burning cross' line over there ------>

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Aug 8, 2004, 04:26 PM
 
Originally posted by Stradlater:
They may feel happier because they are no longer persecuted.
Now you are projecting. That isn't what they are saying.

Our own "right and wrong meter" is developed by our experience and influences from society.

I think we are all born with an inner conscience from birth.
There are certain "rights and wrongs" that are taught yes. But there are certain things that are not. For example, even before I was a Christian and taught that homosexuality was wrong, I felt it was.

If society wasn't hung up over homosexuality, "consciences" wouldn't be given the opportunity to feel that it was wrong.

Society is against it because society's conscience tells them it's wrong too. This is called common sense. Some people have it, some refuse to use it if it gets in the way of their desires.

Again, consciences are different for different people,
I agree, just like I said before. Some people don't listen to their conscience. You use it or lose it.
     
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Aug 8, 2004, 04:28 PM
 
Originally posted by Stradlater:
4% in our repressed society, probably (and that's still a huge figure). If homosexuality wasn't looked down upon, it would probably be more common.

I doubt it. Nothing is stopping them now. Maybe their own conscience though.

In feudal Japan, it was common for an older man to have a relationship with a younger man.
In other parts of the world it's ok to have sex with 12 year old girls too. Is some societies it's ok to eat your fellow man. That no way justifies the action.

If an action is true and just, there is no need for justification.
     
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Aug 8, 2004, 04:30 PM
 
Originally posted by Stradlater:
4% in our repressed society, probably (and that's still a huge figure). If homosexuality wasn't looked down upon, it would probably be more common. In feudal Japan, it was common for an older man to have a relationship with a younger man.
That's disgusting. Younger like…14?

Morality is NOT relative. I'm not exactly sure God would see it that way. Right & wrong are absolute. Cold blooded murder is never okay. So I could also assume you're an atheist. Since morality is relative, there is no God.

I'd take a beer over a joint any day. Most people stay in beer, pot leads to other shitty, drugs.
     
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Aug 8, 2004, 04:31 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
Now you are projecting. That isn't what they are saying.
[/b]
I think we are all born with an inner conscience from birth.
There are certain "rights and wrongs" that are taught yes. But there are certain things that are not. For example, even before I was a Christian and taught that homosexuality was wrong, I felt it was.
[/b]
Society is against it because society's conscience tells them it's wrong too. This is called common sense. Some people have it, some refuse to use it if it gets in the way of their desires.


I agree, just like I said before. Some people don't listen to their conscience. You use it or lose it. [/B]
How do you know so much about other people's conscience?
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Aug 8, 2004, 04:34 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/narth/spitzer3.html

"Others said, "Don't Affirm Me into a Lifestyle that was Killing Me Physically and Spiritually," and "The APA Has Betrayed America with Politically Correct Science.

"Most had sought change because a gay lifestyle had been emotionally unsatisfying. Many had been disturbed by promiscuity, stormy relationships, a conflict with their religious values, and the desire to be (or to stay) heterosexually married."
Of course I would affirm the right of gays who find their lifestyle unsatisfying to change.

But what about all the happy, satisfied gays that could never be fulfilled in a heterosexual lifestyle? Is such a thing impossible? I know at least a few people who would disagree, and I daresay most gays would.
     
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Aug 8, 2004, 04:36 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
Now you are projecting. That isn't what they are saying.
Just because they aren't saying it doesn't mean it isn't true of many cases.
Originally posted by Zimphire:
I think we are all born with an inner conscience from birth.
There are certain "rights and wrongs" that are taught yes. But there are certain things that are not. For example, even before I was a Christian and taught that homosexuality was wrong, I felt it was.
Even before you were a Christian, Christianity existed and had heavily influenced society. Had you been born in another country in which the vast majority readily accepts and welcomes homosexuality, you would think differently.
Originally posted by Zimphire:
Society is against it because society's conscience tells them it's wrong too. This is called common sense. Some people have it, some refuse to use it if it gets in the way of their desires.
Our "society's conscience" is, again, heavily influenced by Christianity. Common sense is not jumping off a cliff; common sense is not condemning a person because of their sexual preference.
Originally posted by Zimphire:
I agree, just like I said before. Some people don't listen to their conscience. You use it or lose it.
It's not that they don't listen to their "conscience." It just tells them different things because it's been influenced by a different upbringing.
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Aug 8, 2004, 04:37 PM
 
Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
That's disgusting. Younger like…14?

Morality is NOT relative. I'm not exactly sure God would see it that way. Right & wrong are absolute. Cold blooded murder is never okay. So I could also assume you're an atheist. Since morality is relative, there is no God.

I'd take a beer over a joint any day. Most people stay in beer, pot leads to other shitty, drugs.
Bollocks mate. Moral absolutes does not exist, it is relative. Highlighting murder as your example for it is not a srtong case for moral absolutes, sorry.

Just look at dcolton and his moral thoughts on homosexuality, and then compare with others. It is relative to the person, and society. What you mean is, that many thoughts onparticulkar exampes of morality are shared by many people, like murder.
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Aug 8, 2004, 04:37 PM
 
Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
I'd take a beer over a joint any day. Most people stay in beer, pot leads to other shitty, drugs.
Beer is really no better.
     
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Aug 8, 2004, 04:39 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
Beer is really no better.
Come on! A beer with your friends is better than sitting in purple haze. And pot is illegal, too.

Sexual preference? I thought they were born gay, and that they can't help it. You can be gay, but you can't destroy old institutions because you want to piss of straight people.
     
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Aug 8, 2004, 04:40 PM
 
Originally posted by Stradlater:
Just because they aren't saying it doesn't mean it isn't true of many cases.
You mean you want it to be true in most cases. This is known as a projection. These people are HAPPIER now than they have ever been. Like it or not.

Even before you were a Christian, Christianity existed and had heavily influenced society. Had you been born in another country in which the vast majority readily accepts and welcomes homosexuality, you would think differently.

You believe I would. In every society there are people out there that is against it I am betting.

Our "society's conscience" is, again, heavily influenced by Christianity. Common sense is not jumping off a cliff; common sense is not condemning a person because of their sexual preference.

The first is common sense, the latter is not. The latter goes a long the lines of "If it feels good, do it" mentality.

It's not that they don't listen to their "conscience." It just tells them different things because it's been influenced by a different upbringing.
You may be right. What influences their conscience is probably different than what influences mine. You are correct there.

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Aug 8, 2004, 04:41 PM
 
Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
Come on! A beer with your friends is better than sitting in purple haze. And pot is illegal, too.
I've done both. Beer is more harmful when abused. Both are bad. But lets not derail this thread.
     
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Aug 8, 2004, 04:42 PM
 
Originally posted by Stradlater:
Again. Says who?
It doesn't matter. The "nature" argument is bunk. Automobiles also do not conform to the usual or ordinary course of nature. No ifs, ands or buts about it. But you don't see the anti-homosexual crowd arguing against cars, do you?
     
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Aug 8, 2004, 04:44 PM
 
Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
It doesn't matter. The "nature" argument is bunk. Automobiles also do not conform to the usual or ordinary course of nature. No ifs, ands or buts about it. But you don't see the anti-homosexual crowd arguing against cars, do you?
Unless they're with the Green Party eco-fascists.
     
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Aug 8, 2004, 04:45 PM
 
Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
It doesn't matter. The "nature" argument is bunk. Automobiles also do not conform to the usual or ordinary course of nature. No ifs, ands or buts about it. But you don't see the anti-homosexual crowd arguing against cars, do you?
I am not saying homosexuality should be stopped because it's not unnatural. I say that when people try to say it's as normal as heterosexuality, and an equal to it. When it is not.

Saying it's unnatural in itself is not a BAD thing.
     
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Aug 8, 2004, 04:46 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
I doubt it. Nothing is stopping them now. Maybe their own conscience though.
More people are coming out every day. But yes, plenty of things are stopping them now.
Originally posted by Zimphire:
In other parts of the world it's ok to have sex with 12 year old girls too. Is some societies it's ok to eat your fellow man. That no way justifies the action.

If an action is true and just, there is no need for justification.
True, to liberated Americans it does not seem just, and we may rightfully look down upon those actions because both eating a human and having sex with twelve year olds usually interferes with the liberties of those other people. As far as this topic goes, though, homosexuality is hardly the same as cannibalism. What liberties are being interfered with when two consenting homosexuals engage, in privacy, in sex?
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Aug 8, 2004, 04:47 PM
 
Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
Come on! A beer with your friends is better than sitting in purple haze. And pot is illegal, too.

Sexual preference? I thought they were born gay, and that they can't help it. You can be gay, but you can't destroy old institutions because you want to piss of straight people.
Alcoholism affects thousands of people. Drunk driving is a leading cause of accidents and deaths. Beer is no better than pot. I'd rather be around someone who's high and relaxed rather than a drunken idiot.
     
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Aug 8, 2004, 04:47 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
I am not saying homosexuality should be stopped because it's not unnatural. I say that when people try to say it's as normal as heterosexuality, and an equal to it. When it is not.

Saying it's unnatural in itself is not a BAD thing.
Right, you and I resolved this one earlier. Come on guys, read the posts!

What I'm waiting for is what you say to all of the people who repeatedly affirm their happiness in their gay lifestyle, and profess that they could not be fulfilled with a heterosexual relationship.
     
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Aug 8, 2004, 04:48 PM
 
Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
how?
Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
How does homosexuality affect you?

You seem to have ignored my asking this question earlier. Perhaps it is too difficult for you to answer.
Still working on an answer? It shouldn't be too difficult to answer if homosexuality affects you so deeply that you feel it's necessary to repress the rights of American citizens.
     
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Aug 8, 2004, 04:49 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
You mean you want it to be true in most cases. This is known as a projection.
Projection:
(psychiatry) a defense mechanism by which your own traits and emotions are attributed to someone else.

Let's work the right vocabulary here.

You may be right. What influences their conscience is probably different than what influences mine. You are correct there.

You put in garbage, garbage comes out.
This could be projection.
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Aug 8, 2004, 04:51 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
You mean you want it to be true in most cases. This is known as a projection. These people are HAPPIER now than they have ever been. Like it or not.
You're projecting.
Originally posted by Zimphire:
You believe I would. In every society there are people out there that is against it I am betting.
I said majority (it's usually a matter of proportion).
Originally posted by Zimphire:
The first is common sense, the latter is not. The latter goes a long the lines of "If it feels good, do it" mentality.
Maybe I didn't word things correctly: Not jumping off of a cliff is common sense. Persecuting a group because of their sexual preference is not common sense.
Originally posted by Zimphire:
You may be right. What influences their conscience is probably different than what influences mine. You are correct there.

You put in garbage, garbage comes out.
Very true in a subjective way. After all, one man's bible is another man's garbage.
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Aug 8, 2004, 04:52 PM
 
Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Still working on an answer? It shouldn't be too difficult to answer if homosexuality affects you so deeply that you feel it's necessary to repress the rights of American citizens.
oic ... you've been banned.
     
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Aug 8, 2004, 04:53 PM
 
ethnocentrism
an attitude of cultural superiority which implies that one’s own culture is better than some other culture. It is the basis of racism, nationalism, and tribalism. (Van Rheenen 1996b, 98).
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
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Aug 8, 2004, 04:54 PM
 
Originally posted by Stradlater:
More people are coming out every day. But yes, plenty of things are stopping them now.

I could say the SAME thing about Christianity. Heck ,you get chastised more now for being a Christian in here than for having sex with men. That says a lot. And I agree, as time goes on, more people will be homosexual. I wont deny that. Society isn't getting "better" Nor will it.

True, to liberated Americans it does not seem just, and we may rightfully look down upon those actions because both eating a human and having sex with twelve year olds usually interferes with the liberties of those other people.

Because that is what our morals as a country tells us. Not having sex with a 12 year old is a moral ideal. For example, in the US having sex with someone under the age of 18 is bad because morally we deemed it so. In England it's 16. Is England full of sexual deviants? Of course not.

As far as this topic goes, though, homosexuality is hardly the same as cannibalism.

I never said it was. I was just showing how just because a society accepts those things, it doesn't suddenly make it ok.

What liberties are being interfered with when two consenting homosexuals engage, in privacy, in sex?
Huh? I am not trying to get homosexual sex banned. People have free will. They do what they want. They always will. Heck, I am even for giving homosexuals the same rights married people have. I am a BIG FAN of free will.

I am speaking about those trying to justify it as being on the same level as heterosexuality. Trying to "normalize" it.

People can do what they want. But please, lets not try to dumb down society so you can feel justified or ok in your actions.
     
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Aug 8, 2004, 04:57 PM
 
Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
That's disgusting. Younger like…14?

Morality is NOT relative. I'm not exactly sure God would see it that way. Right & wrong are absolute. Cold blooded murder is never okay. So I could also assume you're an atheist. Since morality is relative, there is no God.

I'd take a beer over a joint any day. Most people stay in beer, pot leads to other shitty, drugs.
How is morality not relative? Murder is not okay, so why are people allowed and easily forgiven, by your god, to kill others in holy war?

Oh, and I'm agnostic, really the only thing that seems logical to me. You can't prove God exists. You also can't prove God does not exist. Just enjoy your life and treat others as you would like to be treated.
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Aug 8, 2004, 04:58 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:


Because that is what our morals as a country tells us. Not having sex with a 12 year old is a moral ideal. For example, in the US having sex with someone under the age of 18 is bad because morally we deemed it so. In England it's 16. Is England full of sexual deviants? Of course not.
[/b]

I am speaking about those trying to justify it as being on the same level as heterosexuality. Trying to "normalize" it. [/B]
There are reasons we don't let people have sex with 12 year olds. There is a massive amount of evidence to suggest that molested children suffer serious psychological problems as adults. Further, 12 year olds are not mature enough to be able to consent to a sex act. The 16-18 year old range is murkier in both these regards.

Adult gays, on the other hand, are of consenting age and many say that they wouldn't be happy in a heterosexual relationship. I'm really failing to see the big reason why homosexuality shouldn't be considered a "normal" behavior. What is it they do that hurts themselves or hurts others, specifically?
     
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Aug 8, 2004, 04:59 PM
 
Originally posted by strictlyplaid:
Right, you and I resolved this one earlier. Come on guys, read the posts!
Thanks, sometimes I feel like a broken record.

What I'm waiting for is what you say to all of the people who repeatedly affirm their happiness in their gay lifestyle, and profess that they could not be fulfilled with a heterosexual relationship.
Oh I am sure there are people like that. I wouldn't make any judgments about them esp no knowing what has brought them to such beliefs.

I do know this however, There is another direction that they can take. Nothing is permanent.
     
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Aug 8, 2004, 05:02 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
I do know this however, There is another direction that they can take. Nothing is permanent. [/B]
Well, I'm not as certain as you. I'll agree that they should be FREE to go in a different direction, gay or straight, without having to worry about being called a "faggot" or something like that.

So in the end, we don't have the same ideas, but they're not so different after all.
     
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Aug 8, 2004, 05:03 PM
 
Originally posted by Stradlater:
How is morality not relative? Murder is not okay, so why are people allowed and easily forgiven, by your god, to kill others in holy war?

It's just not murder, it's any sin. I am not better than anyone else on this planet. Homosexual sex isn't really singled out as being worse than any other sin. Meaning, me telling a white lie is just as bad as me having anal sex with another man. I am not on any high pedestal above anyone. No one is. We all sin.

Oh, and I'm agnostic, really the only thing that seems logical to me. You can't prove God exists. You also can't prove God does not exist. Just enjoy your life and treat others as you would like to be treated.
I can agree with that. I have people that I interact with on daily terms IRL that are homosexual. I don't treat them any different than I would treat anyone else. Take the SWG in here. Even though he has made many claims to dislike me, on many occasion I have bragged about his accomplishments. I hold no grudge with the guy. Truth be told if we were to ever meet IRL, and he didn't know who I was, we'd probably get a long just fine.
     
 
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